Milwaukee Midget

[SPARKY]

Whew---over my DAPeaPick'nBrain    this stuff makes my head hurt no wonder I chose to sell trucks instead of design them---

[Rex Schimmer]

I promise that this will be my last comment regarding this!

IO,  you said: "HP=GPM x PSI/(1714 x (pump efficiency))   or   HP=GPM x PSI/1714/(pump efficiency)"

I will agree with your first iteration of the formula, it is the same as mine with the addition of parenthesis around the divisor component of the equation  but the second interation:       HP=GPM x PSI/1714/(pump efficiency) is, in fact exactly what you are saying you interpret my formula to be! Using some easy numbers, 10 gpm at 1714 psi and 50% (.5) efficiency, solving the first formula would be: HP= 10 x 1714/ (1714 x (.5)) which will yield an answer of 15 hp. Using your second  formula, the solution would be:
HP= 10 x 1714/ 1714/(.5) which gives you a answer of 7.5 hp. 15 hp is correct.
Rex

[Rex Schimmer]

OPPS!!!

I wrote: HP= 10 x 1714/ (1714 x (.5)) which will yield an answer of 15 hp. Using your second  formula, the solution would be:
HP= 10 x 1714/ 1714/(.5) which gives you a answer of 7.5 hp. 15 hp is correct.

The correct horse power numbers are:HP= 10 x 1714/ (1714 x (.5)) which will yield an answer of 20 hp. Using your second  formula, the solution would be:
HP= 10 x 1714/ 1714/(.5) which gives you a answer of 5 hp. 20 hp is correct.

That is what I get for doing the math in my head!! I claim age as my defense!

Rex

[Interested Observer]

“HP= 10 x 1714/ 1714/(.5) which gives you a answer of 5 hp. 20 hp is correct.”

(Where did the 5 hp come from, anyway?)

This is why a convention has been adopted for dealing with otherwise ambiguous arithmetic expressions.  Evaluating this in stages according to the operator precedence and left-to-right criteria:

HP= 10 x 1714/ 1714/(.5)  =  17140/1714/(.5)  =  10/(.5)  = 20   and it is correct.

[Sumner]

...This is why a convention has been adopted for dealing with otherwise ambiguous arithmetic expressions.  Evaluating this in stages according to the operator precedence and left-to-right criteria....

Interesting, never heard of this before, but I did now...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations

.... I always have to have all of the brackets to keep things straight  

Wondering though why...

...HP= 10 x 1714/ 1714/(.5)....

... you kept the brackets around the (.5) above if it isn't needed there.  To me that looks confusing and I would of inverted the .5 as Rex did,

Sum

[SPARKY]

hmmmm ---you guys sure are asking a lot--- new tricks for an OLD dog-- to learn   

[Rex Schimmer]

Sparky,
IO and myself are having a mathematical semantics pi$$ing contest which has absolutely nothing to do with Chris' Midget project which is what we should be talking about. I promise that this is my last post regarding this~!

Rex

[WOODY@DDLLC]

Sparky, it seems that Rex & IO are off on a tangent, mathematically speaking that is!   
Like THAT never happens in this forum! 

[SPARKY]

Guys, guys, guys---I was just poking fun--  at me and my CBE (country boy engineering) approach to things as opposed to you engineers  who have to know these formula "rules" to stay out of trouble---I realize I am Subjective in my approach vs Objective---but I recognize what you engineers do---seldom am I willing to have to prove it to my self by putting it on "the paper"! 

turbos were an example of me staying with the formulas until I had a Subjective feel for the why and wherefores of compressors and turbines connected by a shaft inside of varying housings

[Milwaukee Midget]

IO, Rex, et al -

If this forum leads to clarity on ANY topic germane to LSR, I will ALWAYS put the Midget on the back burner.

I am an amateur racer with understandings and misunderstandings - I'm curious - I make mistakes - I misspeak - I get some things right. 

What I'm seeing is two very intelligent gentlemen whose opinions I value having a discussion regarding facts.

Do you realize how rare that is today? 

I salute you both, and I THANK YOU for sharing your understandings here.

If this is indeed a "pi$$ing contest", cleaning out the urinal is cheap tuition for what's being taught.

 

Chris

[SPARKY]

Chris---so so true---we CAN all learn from these interactions

[Dean Los Angeles]

I have that same Kennedy tool box. My dad bought it in the early 50's. Still in use today.

Can anyone say that they haven't learned something in this thread? Midget as moderator to the coolest stuff.

Did you have a problem with nitrous in the roll bar? Tube to the engine and to the driver and WOO WEE!

I think you have dismissed the electric oil pump prematurely. Put it on the back burner, maybe.

Would not recommend an electric lubricatiion pump for a couple reasons;
1. no oil flow because of a blown fuse/broken wire/ missed switch in starting sequence etc will cause a dead engine very quickly
2. Volume requirement is engine rpm related

Agree with #1, but only for a minute. The job of the engineer (You the car builder) is to design this to be bullet proof. Blown fuses and broken wires are just poor engineering.
Missing a switch would only be because you didn't safety interlock it so that you have to have oil pressure to start.

#2 Since you don't care about losses in the system, the pump has to be sized large enough to pump 1.5x maximum flow and the relief valve will take care of the rest.

If you took the engine driven pump and drove it with an electric motor and gear reduction you know you would have enough oil.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Dean, thanks - That's high praise.

Regarding driving the oil pump - I assume you're referring to the existing pump - That is driven off of a slot on the end of the camshaft, so using an electric motor might cause a few timing issues . . .   

Mark and I went to visit Joe Radosevich yesterday - he's run SCCA for years, and has what is probably the most extensive pile of HP Midget parts in SE Wisconsin.  He's getting out - lots of toys for sale, including a decent dry sump system with all of the fittings and a pan. 

While I am looking for every possible advantage, I have to keep in mind that I'm the one who would have to service it if there was a problem.  And while I knew getting into this it wasn't going to be cheap, I'd like to avoid any further machining on the block, if possible.  A complete tear-down might be necessary to fit an external oil pump - regardless of how it's driven - and likely some sort of reengineering of where the stock pump mounts up, which I THINK requires some machining - but I need to check into that for sure.

About 11:30 on this video shows where it sits in the block. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jp_bhkF11w

The pump also limits rearward travel of the cam.  Maybe it's as simple as tearing the pump apart and machining the lobes off of the impeller - but I just don't know. 

The problem with Nitrous is that once there's laughing gas available, it's not likely anything will get done . . .
 

[SPARKY]

MM  did you pass out  ----or you still on the phone razzzin FB  about the game

[Milwaukee Midget]

I think Fordboy's on life support.

Wow - a classic, old school running game on a field of frozen, brown grass in 20 degree weather - and snowflakes to boot!

It could have gone either way - the difference being a forward fumble out of the pocket to a confused Boykin.

I expect I'll have to go talk my friend south of the Cheddar Curtain out of his tree . . .