Milwaukee Midget

[251ENG]

Hello all

Came to this build diary about 2 weeks ago for a link on the mk1performance site , it seams to have stolen all my free time since  ( thanks Graham )

What a fantastic project , I am involved with the A series in a small way and have found this build most interesting .

If you are looking in fit bigger cam followers in your block there is one fitted to the Hillman Hunter that is 0.875" ( from memory ) . This is slightly smaller than the MGC one . They need shortening to use or can be purchased from Calver ST in the uk . Also I believe the angle in the block is 2 degrees from vertical and they are set on the centre line of the cam .

The current Swiftune heads are produced for there own new castings and priced at £2750 

Both Weslake and Arden 8 port heads were sold by BMC / Leyland as a special tuning part . The Iron weslake is very prone to cracking between valves and water leaks ( I once repaired one with 17 ) . Weslake did start a project to remake them in about 2-3 years ago but this may not now happen. There was also a guy in Texas with s Sebring sprite that tooled up and had some made in alloy , I think he only made 10 for himself and didn,t want to do any more which is a shame
Ardens are available new from Minspares .

Hope this is of some help


251 ENG

PS that was my inline 970 crank on ebay all those years ago ,  small world

[Milwaukee Midget]

Had a great visit with Mr. and Mrs. Fordboy yesterday.  Kate and I picked up a pile of roasted Mexican veggies and some tortillas, did a table top buffet and made gluttons of ourselves.  Mark introduced me to a Mexican ale with a touch of chili pepper in it, and it had a very cool cedar finish to it.  I liked it well enough that I can't remember the name . . .

And while the ladies chatted, we went to the offices of the illustrious Lake Villa air flow research and Brit-bit development center, aka, the basement, and compared flow bench charts with the actual heads he's been checking for me and other customers.  Fascinating stuff.

There are subtle differences in BMC castings and head preparation techniques, the results of which have been posted earlier, leading to widely varying flow results. 

The short side radius seems to be the key to the best flow - essentially trying to find the path which most gently and directly lets the air into and out of the chamber.  It's not easy - vertical valves and side draft carbs mean 90 degree turns - it's about finding the line that lets the air in without tripping over itself too much, and making the radius as gentle as possible without cutting into the water jacket.  One of the better flowing heads biased the flow in such a way that one might think would restrict flow, but that wasn't the case.  In fact, despite smaller intake valves, it flowed better than my larger valve Longman head.  The intake side ports from the manifold were also only minimally ported, demonstrating that the shape of the pocket is much more important than the size of the port.

We reviewed it all.  The conclusion we came to earlier this week is that the head I chose is well suited to a one liter version of this engine, and the best possible improvement, short of having a new head cut from scratch, is to go with the Rimflow valves on the exhaust side of my head.

And they are on order.

About the only thing I need to know is how much extra displacement in the combustion chamber the Rimflow provides me, and if it's going to be a clearance issue. 

I picked up the deck plate, so if I can get this thing apart, I can drop off the block for honing, and order up piston rings.  If I don't need to notch the pistons, I'll send them off for coating. 

So I've got a short block to tear down - I'm off to get some kerosene for the heater and a bunch of Zip-lock bags.

[Milwaukee Midget]

251 ENG

PS that was my inline 970 crank on ebay all those years ago ,  small world

Welcome aboard - sorry if you're losing sleep. 

That crank HAUNTED me.  I can't complain about the one I had made, but I don't think there were 30 of those ever produced.

Fordboy's been talking mushroom tappets, but the Hillman pieces might be an option.  He was looking at a cutaway 1275 block a while back, and the MGC tappets clearly weren't going to work. 

Mark - is .875 an option?

Again, welcome aboard!

Chris Conrad

[fordboy628]

Hello all

Came to this build diary about 2 weeks ago for a link on the mk1performance site , it seams to have stolen all my free time since  ( thanks Graham )

What a fantastic project , I am involved with the A series in a small way and have found this build most interesting .

If you are looking in fit bigger cam followers in your block there is one fitted to the Hillman Hunter that is 0.875" ( from memory ) .    Thanks.  This will help if the size is right.

This is slightly smaller than the MGC one .      MGC is .936/.9365".   Based on the limited amount of block inspection done, this size will be very difficult to fit to 'A' Series blocks.

They need shortening to use or can be purchased from Calver ST in the uk . Also I believe the angle in the block is 2 degrees from vertical and they are set on the centre line of the cam .  I have not measured a block yet, but Vizard's book lists the lifter angle as 2.5 degrees.

The current Swiftune heads are produced for there own new castings and priced at £2750      Yikes!!   That's $4,565 in USD, before shipping & duty . . . . .

Both Weslake and Arden 8 port heads were sold by BMC / Leyland as a special tuning part . The Iron weslake is very prone to cracking between valves and water leaks ( I once repaired one with 17 ) . Weslake did start a project to remake them in about 2-3 years ago but this may not now happen. There was also a guy in Texas with s Sebring sprite that tooled up and had some made in alloy , I think he only made 10 for himself and didn,t want to do any more which is a shame.    I'm pretty sure this is the guy my client purchased his parts from.

Ardens are available new from Minspares .

Hope this is of some help


251 ENG

PS that was my inline 970 crank on ebay all those years ago ,  small world

Thanks for the interest & the information.    Made some comments in your text.

As pictured in midget's Build Diary, many, many pages back, (pg 144) one of my other client's has a pair of the old Group 5 eight port cylinder heads.    The BMC pervert(?) he bought them from shelled out the bucks to have them duplicated in alloy as well.    My client also has an alloy sample, purchased from who knows where.    He did note however, that there were very few of the alloy ones available . . . . . .

Welcome to the insanity, er forum . . . .
 
Fordboy

[fordboy628]

Fordboy's been talking mushroom tappets, but the Hillman pieces might be an option.  He was looking at a cutaway 1275 block a while back, and the MGC tappets clearly weren't going to work. 

Mark - is .875 an option?

Yes.    BWR is offering tool steel race lifters in both .842" & .875" diameters.     Block machining required . . . . .

http://www.bwrperformance.com/a-series-all.html

This website is NOT for the faint of heart, NOR for those thin of wallet . . . . . . . as these are BMC parts at Winston Cup prices.    Are these parts necessary?   They will be if you race against someone who is using them, or bits similar to these.

A single competitor CAN NOT stop the relentless march of technology, if only ONE other competitor is determined to embrace it . . . . . .

I'm going back to watching the Daytona 500, 'cause there's no technology being used by those bumpkins . . . . . . . .
 
Fordboy

[251ENG]

Hello all

Yes you may be correct about the follower angle , it was over 12 months ago since I bored a block for the oversize followers . If you measure one up you will find that the follower centres are all over the place , and sometimes the cam centreline is NOT parallel to the crank centreline. Also we quite often open out the pushrod holes in the top of the block for extra clearance.

The inline 970 engine was originally developed for for Formula 3  (F3) racing in 1964 . Jackie Stewart was world champion in a cooper fitted with one that year . I would think they built more than 30 engines . i,ve had 2 cranks and know of at least another 5-6 . The works engines used by Stewart were rather special with forged titanium rods and cast magnesium pistons . They also had a really nice gear driven cam assembly . The cooper book states 88bhp at 7750rpm with a single HS6 SU.

The BMC formula 2 engine was totally one off engine project .  It was 1000cc , twin cam 16 valve , using no production parts , it was a complete disaster and never raced.

I currently building a 1293 mini engine with a weslake iron 8 port and lucas fuel injection , when I get the time

[mtkawboy]

Ill start off by saying I know nothing about these engines at all. Something I stumbled on building 428 Cobrajet drag race engines might be worth a try. There may be nothing there but you never know. Try bolting the block plate with a head gasket to the head with the valves & springs on it and pour solvent in the ports to see if any of them leak out the valves. I found on the 428s that the 2 end exhaust valves leaked. After that we did the valve job with the block plate bolted on & solved the problem. Might be nothing there but it doesn't cost anything and you never know

[Milwaukee Midget]

Ill start off by saying I know nothing about these engines at all. Something I stumbled on building 428 Cobrajet drag race engines might be worth a try. There may be nothing there but you never know. Try bolting the block plate with a head gasket to the head with the valves & springs on it and pour solvent in the ports to see if any of them leak out the valves. I found on the 428s that the 2 end exhaust valves leaked. After that we did the valve job with the block plate bolted on & solved the problem. Might be nothing there but it doesn't cost anything and you never know

Hadn't thought about that.

When I last did a leak-down test, I was unable to discern any leak through the head - at least audibly - but what you suggest makes huge sense.  These old British castings are always kind of iffy.  Mine in particular, considering how much we've had to skim the head in order to get the compression ratio where it is.

And when you look at an FE head, the studs on the ends are actually a considerable distance from combustion chambers, and on the exhaust side, that's the thinnest part of the casting. 

The A series has either 9 or 11 studs, but they're placed for ease of assembly - not for the best possible sealing.

I'll need to check if the deck plate is flat on both sides, but I think that's a good tip, regardless of the head you're working on.

[251ENG]

We have a torque plate for valve seat cutting that originally came from Manx racing . Its a steel flame cut and at least 4 inches thick .

[Graham in Aus]

Hi guys, yes, I dropped a link to this build on Mark Forsters excellent Mk1 Performance Forum, a poster there was contemplating various things short stroke and A-Series!

So now Simon (251ENG) is on board! Sorry about the mammoth thread reading old mate!

Simon and I go back a long way, I remember being on a local rally in the UK (late 80's) we were competing in Simons super little 850 Mini and got impossibly stuck up a very muddy lane that I had convinced him to try out!

Simon has worked for a UK crankshaft and engine component manufacturer and now heads up the machine shop at SMMC in Southam (Warwickshire). He's being slightly modest, as his reputation is fast becoming one of the 'go to' guys in the A-series machining world. I think this comes from having to fix up a whole lot of old, worn out and damaged historic parts for racers that keep using them 'outside design parameters' !!

Midget and Fordboy: I'm really enjoying this latest phase of the development, I have heard (anecdotally) that the 12G1316 was one of the best to port, something about more casting to grind where you need it, but all talk unless you've actually done it....

I've had several comments / feedback about how sensible and thorough Fordboys approach is, only believe what you can prove, and he does so whilst sharing the data!  

Now maybe I can convince Graham Russell to have a few sleepless night reading...... ! http://russellengineering.com.au/

Thanks again!  

[Milwaukee Midget]

We have a torque plate for valve seat cutting that originally came from Manx racing . Its a steel flame cut and at least 4 inches thick .

It's likely more structurally sound than the block!

And Graham - thanks for inviting Simon to the party.  I may need help in Great Britain when I finally get fed up with this turd and try to source a DOHC 1.4 K engine to destroy, er, ahh, I mean, destroke . . .

9 hours in a drafty garage with a slightly elevated CO level is something I'd hoped to avoid, but there seems to be no end of this winter in sight.  The way it's been going, I expect to be following a snowplow through Wyoming in August.  We're looking at yet ANOTHER 10 day forecast of temperatures in the single digits and teens.

I can't wait any longer, so I dropped $20.00 on a pale of kerosene, fired up the salamander and completely tore down the short block today - and yes, Mark, I pulled the spool, too.

No pics, but everything is tagged and bagged.  I'll be dropping the block off with Mel and the crew at C&S, along with the torque plate for a diamond hone.  I'm also going to have him run the cam on the digital readout thingeemadoober machine.  It's my hope I can get a regrind on this one with a slightly wider lobe center angle.  I have to look at the cam card, but I think we're at 108 - last December, Vizard suggested I go 110 - 112.  I'll know more when I see the numbers.

So now I'm cold, sore and stiff from bending over a lump in a cold garage.  A hot shower and a hot toddy are in order.

Now that I think about it, I haven't eaten, either.

[fordboy628]

Ill start off by saying I know nothing about these engines at all. Something I stumbled on building 428 Cobrajet drag race engines might be worth a try. There may be nothing there but you never know. Try bolting the block plate with a head gasket to the head with the valves & springs on it and pour solvent in the ports to see if any of them leak out the valves. I found on the 428s that the 2 end exhaust valves leaked. After that we did the valve job with the block plate bolted on & solved the problem. Might be nothing there but it doesn't cost anything and you never know

We have a torque plate for valve seat cutting that originally came from Manx racing . Its a steel flame cut and at least 4 inches thick .

MIDGET,

Not that this will do you any good.   Under a bench somewhere in the closed-minded environment that is now an un-named race shop, is a 1.5" thick section from the top of a BMC block casting.   You only get one guess what I used to use it for.

Undoubtedly it is covered by the dust of however many years I've been gone from that shop.

On an interesting side note, that plate has cousins of Ford 1000/1300/1500/1600 and Ford 2000 origins . . . . . .   probably also dust covered, or discarded in the trash . . . . .

This is a "bad trip" down memory lane for me . . . . . .

Sorry,
F/B

[fordboy628]

Had a great visit with Mr. and Mrs. Fordboy yesterday.  Kate and I picked up a pile of roasted Mexican veggies and some tortillas, did a table top buffet and made gluttons of ourselves.  Mark introduced me to a Mexican ale with a touch of chili pepper in it, and it had a very cool cedar finish to it.  I liked it well enough that I can't remember the name . . .

MIDGET,

OK, first the IMPORTANT stuff:   The brew was "5 Vulture" from 5 Rabbit Cerveceria, Bedford Park, IL, a SW Chicagoland suburb.   6.4 Alc/Vol, unfiltered.    The brewer lists it as an Oaxacan-Style Dark Ale, brewed with Ancho Chili.

Sort of like Negro Modelo, but with higher ABV, AND, the chili kick.    Excellent when paired with, (surprise, surprise, surprise . . . ) MEXICAN FARE!!

And while the ladies chatted, we went to the offices of the illustrious Lake Villa air flow research and Brit-bit development center, aka, the basement, and compared flow bench charts with the actual heads he's been checking for me and other customers.  Fascinating stuff.

How many times do I have to remind you?    It's called the: DUNGEON LABORATORY!!   (Basement sounds so  . . .  suburban . . . . . .     You know I'm workin' real hard here to create a "mad scientist" image.     Basement, sheesh . . . . .)

 
Eyegore

[Milwaukee Midget]

How many times do I have to remind you?    It's called the: DUNGEON LABORATORY!!   (Basement sounds so  . . .  suburban . . . . . .     You know I'm workin' real hard here to create a "mad scientist" image.     Basement, sheesh . . . . .)

 
Eyegore

Until you invest in a Bunsen burner, a boat load of test tubes, a Tesla coil and a Jacobs ladder, well . . . let's face it . . . the Buret is a nice start, but Lake Villa is NOT Transylvania.

From your friend at the Pommy Pygmy Playhouse. 

[fordboy628]

How many times do I have to remind you?    It's called the: DUNGEON LABORATORY!!   (Basement sounds so  . . .  suburban . . . . . .     You know I'm workin' real hard here to create a "mad scientist" image.     Basement, sheesh . . . . .)

 
Eyegore

Until you invest in a Bunsen burner, a boat load of test tubes, a Tesla coil and a Jacobs ladder, well . . . let's face it . . . the Buret is a nice start, but Lake Villa is NOT Transylvania.

From your friend at the Pommy Pygmy Playhouse. 

Wha ha ha ha ha . . . . . . . .

Another mad scientist . . . . . . .

http://russellengineering.com.au/performance-cylinder-heads/

Resistance is futile earthlings . . . . . . . .   Prepare to be disintegrated!   Er, flowtested?!?

 
Eyegore

P.S. Test tubes I got.    Working on the rest of the list . . . . . . PLUS, a Van De Graaff generator for that metal folding chair you were sitting on . . . . . . . .