Milwaukee Midget

[gearheadeh]

Well, if money is no object- you could always use this product. Works great, you can start a diesel left out in the cold (I mean COLD  ) overnight. The timer will start and run the system so that it is toasty warm when you need it.

http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-operated-heaters/applications/trucks/engine-preheat.html

 

[Dr Goggles]

I've left beverages for Dan at the Goose, but it's never clear as to whether or not he gets there in time to enjoy them.

Oh, ooops ......... I thought it said "Don", so I drank them.... I struggled to read that Teut' script you'd written on them.

Don, you owe Dan a beer or two. 

[salt27]

I've left beverages for Dan at the Goose, but it's never clear as to whether or not he gets there in time to enjoy them.

Oh, ooops ......... I thought it said "Don", so I drank them.... I struggled to read that Teut' script you'd written on them.

Don, you owe Dan a beer or two.  

This explains a thing or two.  

  Don

[manta22]

Chris;

"Neil, I'm pretty certain I was at Road America in '73 - I was 13, and Can-Am had become a Porsche Parade by that time.  Records show a DNS for # 64.  What happened with Bud's car that year?  "

I wasn't at Road Atlanta so I don't know if Bob Peckham entered the car and then didn't make the race or what. We only entered a few races since it was all we could afford-- no sponsors! #64 never had a DNF-- someone I know sent me a link to a website with info and photos of the McLaren M8F that had been raced in the Can-Am by Commander Motor Homes-- part of a 5-car team. We got lots of satisfaction from beating them and others who ran big $$$ efforts. If a Can-Am car was not well-prepared it had little chance of finishing, much less placing near the top-- but this applies to all types of racing.

Can-Am was a Golden Age, Grasshopper.   

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[fordboy628]

We got lots of satisfaction from beating them and others who ran big $$$ efforts. If a Can-Am car was not well-prepared it had little chance of finishing, much less placing near the top-- but this applies to all types of racing.

Can-Am was a Golden Age, Grasshopper.   

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,

What was the biggest cause of DNF's?     The gearbox?     The diff?   (My buddy with a McLeagle can't keep a ring & pinion in his . . . .)   Or, the crappy shift linkage?   Crank vibration damper?    Drive axles/u-joints?     These are the parts that were marginal on those cars.    Lack of preparation on these parts = busted, in a BIG way!

Just curious about your opinion/experience.
 
F/B

[Milwaukee Midget]

I've left beverages for Dan at the Goose, but it's never clear as to whether or not he gets there in time to enjoy them.

Oh, ooops ......... I thought it said "Don", so I drank them.... I struggled to read that Teut' script you'd written on them.

Don, you owe Dan a beer or two. 

I'm warnin' you, Goggs - you keep pilferin' the Mayor's brews, we'll send Bubba Skuzz over -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56duVYLsd4Q

[manta22]

Fordboy;

There were a variety of DNFs but one consistent problem was with the Hewland LG500 & LG600 transaxle. The thrust created by the pinion on the ring gear distorted the side cover and the R/P clearance increased. Failure of the R & P was not uncommon since the differential was being stressed to the max. It took very careful setup of the R & P to minimize those problems. Another problem was breakage of the ring gear bolts. Unless they were properly torqued, Loctited, and safety-wired, they would loosen and then there was a DNF.

Oil pressure was another often-seen problem; the dry-sump pump would ingest debris and be destroyed. Since the later Can-Am cars all ran Chevy big blocks, RPM did not cause many problems but the high torque created lots of stress on the drivetrain. George Bolthoff built our engines; we only had one fail-- a timing chain broke but it was in practice and George rebuilt it in time for the race the next day.

Odd things put many a car out of a race-- the Ferrari 612P was a DNF at one race when an off-road excursion threw up a shower of gravel which found its way into the stack injection and jammed the slide-throttle plates. Crashes took their toll, too. At Las Vegas in the late-'60s, Jim Hall was overtaking Lothar Motchenbacher when Lothar's rear upright broke, suddenly slowing his car. Hall ran into the left rear of Motchenbacher and was launched into the air. A newspaper published a photo of Jim Hall's car flying through the air upside down with the front of the chassis disintegrated. I wish I could find a copy of that photo.

There were no problems with the shift linkage that I remember. Lots of big dollar efforts were doomed by poor car preparation; the real professionals like Porsche & McLaren fielded cars that were as reliable as a highly-tuned race car can be but, as you know, the outcome in racing is never certain. Some drivers were fast but easy on the cars while others were brutal and that caused problems.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[fordboy628]

Neil,

Thanks for the insight!   Some of the guys who "race" these cars in Vintage/Historic simply have no idea how much prep time is required for "reliability" . . . . . .

Chris, et all,

Apologies for the thread hijack.
 
Fordboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

Apologies for the thread hijack.
 
Fordboy

No problem - Can-Am, early Trans-Am, IMSA GT - I was immersed in that stuff.  Competition Press was a regular part of my early interest in motorsports.

My dad would get it in the mail every week.  Much to my mom's chagrin, it would wind up on the floor of . . . , well, my mom referred to it as "the library". 

I learned a lot about motorsports with my toosh on the toilet.

[fordboy628]

Valve study,  Part one:

Midget,

For your amusement, check out some of the valve weights.

Sorry, could not imbed the info, had to attach it.   (PITA!!    )
 
F/B

[Graham in Aus]

Hi guys, been in hiding, too hot here  , weather's just broken, aah cooler 

Last set of valves I bought in UK, I actually got them off Paul Ivey himself, Race Engine Components (REC) I think they make the anti reversionary (Rimflow) valves a la Vizard too, but can be heavy...  REC now seem to be combined with G&S : http://www.gsvalves.co.uk/race-engine-components.html , Paul may have retired? Some good info on material specs there. I think you can source as good quality in the US ?

MED: http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related have reduced stem (6mm) valves and titanium retainers http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related/med-competition-valves-s6-stem, can't say I've used them, but maybe Steve, or Lee his son there might weigh some for you?

You may be aware of all this, but I thought I'd add it to the discussion! 

[Milwaukee Midget]

Graham, you stay in where it's cool - I don't want any heat-stroke stories.  

I'm amid numerous e-mails with Andy at G&S.  Seems some of the anti reversion skus are out of production, and I was told they never made one for a 1.48" application - primarily because it was, indeed, so heavy.

Yeah, they are heavier, and only available in stainless.  Fordboy's doing some flowbench work with the aforementioned heads, and has a few Rimflow's he's going to try.

If the ones he has show positive attributes - and I have no reason to think that they won't - I'm searching out someone to turn down some used titanium valves to a 1.48" intake with a 9/32 stem.  I'll probably have the same done with the exhaust.

My thought process is this - the head on the Rimflow is a bit thicker than on a standard "penny-on-a-stick" race valve.  Provided I can keep safe clearance with the piston, I can pick up maybe a couple tenths of CR, minimize reversion AND have a lighter valve.  

That would be the trifecta, but I'm not grabbing the credit card until the numbers are in.

Regarding smaller valve stems - well, it's on the table, but it would be nice if I didn't have to reset everything on a head that has seen a lot of shop work.  I don't know how much more it can take, and it will likely need seats if I switch to titanium.

[fordboy628]

Hi guys, been in hiding, too hot here  , weather's just broken, aah cooler 

Last set of valves I bought in UK, I actually got them off Paul Ivey himself, Race Engine Components (REC) I think they make the anti reversionary (Rimflow) valves a la Vizard too, but can be heavy...  REC now seem to be combined with G&S : http://www.gsvalves.co.uk/race-engine-components.html , Paul may have retired? Some good info on material specs there. I think you can source as good quality in the US ?

MED: http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related have reduced stem (6mm) valves and titanium retainers http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related/med-competition-valves-s6-stem, can't say I've used them, but maybe Steve, or Lee his son there might weigh some for you?

You may be aware of all this, but I thought I'd add it to the discussion! 

Ahem . . . . .        Some info you may want to reference:

Valves, Cylinder Heads and Airflow,             Part Deux . . . . . .   (Yes friends, another multistep tutorial!!)

Midget, Graham, et all,

Late last summer, I had the opportunity to flow test 2 Swiftune 1275 full race cylinder heads.    One was untouched, just as delivered by Swiftune to the competitor.    The "other" Swiftune head had been "improved" by the addition of an MED 6mm stem valve/Ti retainer/valve spring set.   The "improvement" cost approx. $2000 USD and was done at a "knowledgeable" vintage specialty race shop, familiar with BMC race engines.    The shop provides dyno & rebuilding services for both inline & transvestite (transverse) BMC's.

Some observations:
A/    The valve springs used had about a 9 minute lifespan.   (Yes, you read that correctly.)     JUST prior to their suicide, the springs invariably "murdered" other engine
       components.    I am uncertain if the springs were supplied by MED or the race shop.         (I suspect the shop . . . . .)

2/    The best flowing BMC race head I have ever flow tested is:   The "untouched" Swiftune,  BY A LARGE MARGIN . . .   

d/    The flow test numbers for the "improved" head:   13% avg. flow loss @ low/mid lifts &  4% avg. flow loss @ high lifts!!!   

I apologize for not having the printouts ready to attach to this post.    BUT, as soon as I can print them out, scan & jpeg 'em, I'll put the numbers on Midget's diary.   I'll embed them if I can, otherwise they will be attached as jpeg's.

Some conclusions:
A/     When substituting out bits, I find it helpful to do some math to see if the components might be compatible.   But hey, that's just me.

2/     When having "improvements" done, I'd advise to flow test before and after.    Call me skeptical, whatever.    I wanna see numbers in black & white.    Kinda like the
        ones I posted up about the carb modifications I did for Midget, WAY BACK in the build diary.

d/     In racing, as in much else in life, you don't always get what you pay for . . . . . . . .      Caveat Honky, er, Emptor

The one giveaway here is:   The dyno/engine shop does not have a flow bench!!!!!!!!     Duh!   

Sic semper follis.
 
Fordboy

[DND]

A little info on Jim Halls Sky-grounder

A stud in the left brake caliper or bracket was backing out and each lap it was cutting a groove in the back side of the mag wheel, and when Lothar turned right off of the front straight the load on the tire broke the lip off of the rim and let the air out and slowed the car in an instant

And that is when Jim hit him , I was standing there watching the two lap after lap knowing that Jim was gong to pass Lothar but never like that

Boy were the parts and dirt flying and that sure is the down side of racing, and its lucky that they both made it throu but Jims legs were in pretty bad shape

G Don

[fordboy628]

Hi guys, been in hiding, too hot here  , weather's just broken, aah cooler  

Last set of valves I bought in UK, I actually got them off Paul Ivey himself, Race Engine Components (REC) I think they make the anti reversionary (Rimflow) valves a la Vizard too, but can be heavy...  REC now seem to be combined with G&S : http://www.gsvalves.co.uk/race-engine-components.html , Paul may have retired? Some good info on material specs there. I think you can source as good quality in the US ?

MED: http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related have reduced stem (6mm) valves and titanium retainers http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related/med-competition-valves-s6-stem, can't say I've used them, but maybe Steve, or Lee his son there might weigh some for you?

You may be aware of all this, but I thought I'd add it to the discussion!  

Also in reference to my posting #3492 (1/20/14)

Valves, Cylinder Heads and Airflow,            Part drei of the multistep tutorial . . . .

The supposed "consistent advantage" of the 6mm stem BMC valve kit is the reduction of the cross sectional area of the valve, as presented to resist/disrupt airflow at the port turn/valve intersection.

Whew!    That's a mouthful!     Now let's think about this for a minute . . . . . . . .

A/     Assume for a moment that the valve head shapes are identical.  (unlikely)  Then the only difference is the stem diameter.    9/32nds Vs. 6mm   (.279" Vs. .236" for a net
        of .043"/ 1.1mm)    BUT, most race inlet valves for BMC's are "waisted" (narrowed) to .250" on the exposed stem.    Now the difference is only .014"/.36mm, although
        as the valve is opened, an "un-waisted" portion of the stem is "exposed" to flow.     The 9/32nds exhaust valves are not usually "waisted", so the reduction in area would
        be the larger difference.

2/     The valve guide also presents "resistance/disruption" to airflow.    Since the valve guide O.D. is fixed at 15/32nds (.469"/11.9mm), this is a lot more area than the stem
        diameter.    AND, if the guides used are stock length and un-tapered,  then the "flow resistance area" is at a maximum, in a high flow area of the port!!   This is exactly
        what happened on the "improved" cylinder head.    The newly installed 6mm guides did NOT match the shape & length of the original Swiftune guides . . . . . . .
        Does "paying attention" to all the "little details" matter?    See below.
        The bottom line is:  Your engine builder/machinist/buddy/whatever, needs to give a s*** about your parts.   OR, you don't get what you pay for . . . . . .

d/     So how then to explain the huge flow discrepancy between 2 supposedly "identical" heads to start?   There are several possibilities:
        1/   Maybe the heads didn't flow equally to begin with.    We will never know, because flow tests didn't happen "prior" to the "improvement".     (Duh!!!!!!)
        2/   Detail work on the valve guides is of vital consequence to BMC's.
        3/   Valve shape, at the valve/seat interface is also vitally important.    BUT, we knew that already, right?    

I'm going to flow test 8 or 9 BMC race heads, in various conditions, in the next couple of weeks.   I'm going to be testing various valve shapes in these heads at the same time.   The results should be interesting.    I'll compare the results to my ever expanding database of BMC cylinder head flow results.    I'll post up the results, as they become available, and at my leisure.     Machining some fixtures/adaptors now, so I guess I'll be buried in BMC crap, again . . . . .

Graham,   There is a damaged MED head in the pile to tested.   Not sure if it is 9/32nds or 6mm valve stems, or if it has too much damage to test.   Either way the numbers will be "informative" . . . . . . .  

My advice?   Question everything (including your Mom!!!), generate your own data, know your brewer by their first name!!!  
 
Fordboy

P.S.  I want data, raw data preferably.   I'll form my own opinion.