Well, here goes.
Three weeks ago, after searching the Midwest for 2+ years, I finally found an affordable tub that I think will make a good candidate for the I/GT class. It's a very solid 1971 MG Midget that the previous owner had started to restore, but gave up on. Partially disassembled but very complete, I've spent the last two weeks finishing the disassembly. The engine and tranny came out this evening, and without the help of a hoist, I might add. Something to be said for an engine block that's light enough to ship via UPS Ground service.
As is the case with many old cars, there is a lot of clean up to do - I've spent too many years working around grimy projects, so getting it clean is the first order of business. Most of the work for the next week or so will be just getting the undercarriage cleaned up. I suspect the lack of rust is due in large part to the fact that the undercarriage is covered with a nice, grimy, impenetrable layer of rust-inhibiting Castrol GTX and road dirt. It's got to go, along with the squirrel nests, so I'll be doing dirty work for a while.
Pics will be posted once I get to the point that I'm doing something other than scraping goo and removing walnut shells.
I hope it's interesting. Target is Bonneville 2009 . . . although I suspect that if I could get 17dracing up here for a weekend, I could be at Maxton next month!
One other thing - anyone out there running Mac OSX that can help me figure out how to post my pics? Drop me a PM!
Chris Conrad
Love the small bore stuff!! I'll be watching your progress with great interest.
I'm not sure if you are allowed to do this in GT but . . . . have you considered running just two cylinders in the 1275 and entering J/GT?
I can't tell from your build how familiar you are with the A series engine, I'll assume not much, but no offence if you happen to be a world expert :)
First, do you have this book? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tuning-Engine-Definitive-Performance-Economy/dp/1859606202
if not get it.
Surprisingly the 1275 is described as a big bore engine. It started life in the mini cooper S (not swappable with an inline engine), again, the 1275 was the long stroke engine with an 81.3mm stroke (70.61mm bore), the engine started out as a 970 (62mm stroke), grew to 1071cc (68.4mm stroke), and finally topped out at 1275cc. It's been stretched in the aftermarket to 1596cc. The 970 engine was the basis of many 1000cc screamer engines, and most 1300cc race engines were bored out to 73.5mm and destroked to 76.5mm.
There is also a factory turbo version in the form of the metro turbo, and apart from the block and crank could be raided for inline use (you'd need to check that the oil pump is OK in the bellhousing, I can't remember).
Other none factory, but fun options available are 8 port crossflow and 16 valve heads, but you'll need to raid the piggybank first.
The frogeye would have been 948cc originally.
I grew up playing with the A series engine, unfortunately I've done a lot of growing since and things are getting a bit hazy.
Andy
Hey, Rob -No, no.. someone's moved the steering wheel ;) Look for rust around the mount for the front of the leaf springs, the usual rust in the floor, rust around the rear window and front shock bolts can break out of the firewall. 1st and reverse gears are super weak, I drove for 6 months with no 1st and reverse :roll: . Other than that they were a lot of fun, loads of parts available here and in the UK. Datsun/Nissan engine/trans are a common swap though I did see one in the US with a 427 :-o ...$US4200 is a long way from my $A300, yikes.
Funny you should mention a Morris Minor - I'm thinking of tripping down to Chicago to check one out this weekend -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170417558290&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT
You'd think I'd have learned . . .
You 4 inch bolt pattern equals 101.6 mm. The only thing close are 100 mm cars . . .
Are you going to need to go to 5 lugs?
What did you paint your underbody with? POR or??
Cheers,
Rob
You 4 inch bolt pattern equals 101.6 mm. The only thing close are 100 mm cars . . . GeoWell . . . not quite . .
MM, here is a photo of my Willys at Union Grove. We were there match racing at a nostalgia race. Got to visit with Broadway Bob, he is a site to behold.Gary, if you bring the Willikers up this way again, drop me a line. I simply don't get to Great Lakes Dragaway nearly enough.
Right now, no big deal - I've got all winter to figure it out. .
I've got to believe that they are a riot on the twisties. I know my MGB is. :cheers:
I'd happily comment but I'm pretty sure after SSS's cuss-mangulator had had it's way with what I wrote it wouldn't make very much sense.....
The most annoying type of advice you can ever get is " try this , if that doesn't work then you may like to try this...." invariably trying one way excludes the possibility of trying it the other way ....because you've already wrecked it......
It sure wouldn't bother me to radius those sharp corners on the pedestals. I'd leave the base of the pedestal full size. Pete
Would 12 point nuts with the built in washer surface similar to those used for headers solve that problem? I'm sure they'd take the required torque.
Pete
And Rob, you can be my point man on the electricals. I see you've been plunderin' the vaults at Lord Lucas' dark - VERY DARK - castle. :-D
Of course this is all well thought out and I am more of an expert on British machines tonight because I had Newcastle beer! :cheers:In my garage, that's called "assembly lube". :cheers:
Geo
Where I am going is... perhaps the pedestals are too short.I'll pay attention to that - thanks, Geo.
Those rockers are very purdy for that old cast iron clunker . . .
Stan
NEWS FLASH -
I just received confirmation from a supplier in the northern woods of Upper Michigan that a highly secretive prototype high performance device, designed specifically for antiquated, small British racing engines, has been successfully produced in his newly acquired shop.
I've also been told that it's ready to ship.
Details to follow . . .
Looking back at the photos, you may want to move that plate to the other side to hide the ding. That's assuming that you're not already hiding a larger one. :evil: :evil: :-D :-DIt will be covering the ding - this was just a photo-op. I'm thinking of having the Magna Carta inscribed on a much larger one to cover the big dent in the oil pan. :-D
Pete
Polish those bits you whittle just to make sure there's no stress rising nicks or scratches....
Did you ever get your valve stem length correct so that they seat?
LSR folks are sure wide awake tomorrow nights down under............ :-DEd, it's all a matter of perspective - If you ask them, we're living in the past! :-D
Ed
...... now doesn't it go "big hat no cattle" .....I thought you could at least have written " all bull,no hat" :wink:
while we're here I see you didn't machine the rocker gear to fit , you "relieved it"...by hand....indeed.
while we're here I see you didn't machine the rocker gear to fit , you "relieved it"...by hand....indeed.
Hey, Walt - did you ever get that cam timing adjuster built? Do you need another project for shop class before you graduate? :roll: Seriously.
Midget, How is the rocker geometry? If your going to change to a bigger cam later have you thought about longer valve stems - springs - pushrods. Most motors I configure the pushrods are the last thing I get for it. Sorry, I have not been following this so if you have already addressed this, my bad.
Enjoying the build. 8-)
Watching high-tech vacuum film-coating equipment go together near Manchester, it was common to see things come off to be hand-filled and polished to fit rather then sending parts back to the shop. Old world craftsmanship. Rather necessary since all information flow is mostly one direction only. Errors seen on assembly rarely, if ever, get back to engineering to be corrected.
Just for fun: heavily modified 1293cc Midget on Portland Craigslist: http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/1753253847.html (http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/cto/1753253847.html)
Mike
Was the good boy a self proclamation or Miss Hate's :-DIt's one of those consensus opinions. Which means I agree with her, or she kicks me in the nuts. :-o
Crikey......sounds like it might be time for some renovations, or a breakfast in bed.....my experience has it that an interference campaign based on flattery and distraction is a useful thing when large heavy parcels start turning up in the mail, either that or get 'em sent to your work address.........
Nah, I'd be broke years ago if I did that! 25 years last Feb for what it's worth.
To all you newlyweds, take this advice from the happy man in a 23+ year relationship -
KEEP SEPERATE ACCOUNTS.
Here's hoping your err, Doc's gear turns up in time for SW! :wink:
Cheers,
Rob
My first day working for mad Bob was making two crates to send two 3litre Mowogs to England...had to take them out of Austin Freeway and a Wolesley( I think)....from underneath, Bob reckoned he was an apprentice when they were new and nearly every single one had to be pulled and line bored under warranty.....One of those motors was so siezed it "rang" when I belted it to see if I could free it up to turn it over....... the buyer was none too happy from what I later heard....
The Midget would go well with one of those in it.........................
Nice wheels.
Coming along. Brake and clutch master cylinders mounted on the box, flywheel and clutch mounted, engine buttoned up – with the exception of the ignition, I’ve gone as far as I can go without the tub in the garage. I’m waiting for a final approval before Skeeter welds in the door bar in the cage. Hope to have the tub back this weekend. I’ve scheduled paint for Labor Day. Maybe it will be dry when I get to Wendover.
And the paint, too. :wink:
Much to do – Fire suppression, brake and fuel lines, net, blow shield, harness, electrical, interior, a bit of body work. I can take comfort in the fact that most of the heavy lifting is behind me, but with September right around the corner, I really need to get the car back in the garage where I can spend every extra moment on it. It’s going to be close, but I’ll be damned, and I’ll never forgive myself, if I show up at Bonneville this year without a car.
Too bad I don't live close I'd be over to help. I have a set of British standard whitworth combination wrenches and factory British Leyland license to use them! But then I'd end up drinking your beer.
Well, Since you already managed to do it on your own.......How about using a ratcheting tie-down strap around the pillars to maintain pressure??? :cheers:Tried that - it just kept slipping up the pillars. I imagine the factory had to have had some sort of jig to produce these at a rate faster than one every three hours.
A bit more progress on the blowshield template. It was suggested that I use cardboard, but given that the final weld on this is likely to happen outside of my garage, I need to have a dimensionally stable model which I know fits.
I’ve chosen Masonite to mock it up – it’s stiff and accepts 5 minute epoxy to bond it together. After I glue the pieces together, I’ll be fiberglassing the corners for reinforcement. The outside dimension, particularly where the clutch master cylinder sits, is going to be the critical outside dimension – very tight here.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN3760.jpg)
Back to it.
Looks like that old clutch slave cylinder is made the old school way (heavy with lots of cast iron!),Should be okay to massage the sharp edge closest to the frame where it goes from flat machined surface for the bleeder to the cast surface 90* from it. Also , I can't tell but if it is bolted on, try drilling the holes out to offset it. A little grinding never hurt anything right? Keep up the good work!!! root-in for ya.
My big concern is that the engine is going to tend to torque toward the slave cylinder.
put a chain on it to limit the excursion.....or even a rubber band :-D...nah just joshing....hey, what are you doing at the computer anyway big guy.....git thee to the workshop!QuoteMy big concern is that the engine is going to tend to torque toward the slave cylinder.Getting rid of the Metalastic will end that worry. :wink:
Geo
Welding's more like riding a bicycle. Pete
I reckon you're ahead of schedule Chris....when you start to say " I'm not going to make it but I'm acting like I will and I'm gonna keep going" we'll know you're ONschedule.
Do you have a scrutineers check list so that you can tick items off the list?
Channel the anger, a hold up in the "at last minute" parts line can be a disaster ....but in a one off assembly it can also be a circuit breaker....you are currently assembling as you would expect to .....in having to wait for the scattershield you might be forced to divert time to items that you were going to leave until AFTER you'd put the motor in. This will cause you to do things in a slightly different order, or maybe to dummy installs that you wouldn't have bothered with otherwise..
Don't falter because there's someone to blame, adapt and prosper. I'm thinking you'll get the scattershield, late but at a reduced price....in the meantime ten bucks says you find something in your rejigged assembly routine that you wouldn't have found until the lake otherwise...................
While Kate's turning down the covers, I'm counting my blessings and contemplating more important things than race cars and deadlines.
I sent Tim packing and spent a quiet evening in the hospital room with my wife, who is now fine and at home - no problems. Diagnosis came back as Peripheral Neuritis - a pinched nerve, essentially.
While Kate's turning down the covers, I'm counting my blessings and contemplating more important things than race cars and deadlines.
scattershield?
(Could it be used as a serving piece?)
Stan
. . . they'll look wistfully at the long suffering thinking "gee , they orbit in a whole scene I can't even grasp......"
She'll appreciate that.
What a fiasco.As a former owner of an Austin with some of that canned smoke electrical, You had me rolling on the floor in stiches!! :-D
Sometimes, I’m just unobservant. All that smokes is not necessarily Lucas. Cranking the motor, and the mechanical – repeat – MECHANICAL heat gauge takes off and pegs, and is hot enough to light a doobie on. :? I wish that that was my excuse, but it was almost as though the sending unit was acting as the only ground for the engine. :roll:
New battery installed – GROUND STRAP IN PLACE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH :cheers: – engine turns over smoothly, and in the classic British tradition, the banjo fitting (BANJO FITTING?!?!) coming off of the side of the block is leaking oil like an old Shovelhead. :roll: Still, under crank alone, I’m pulling 40 PSI, according to the functioning gauge next to the former ground strap.
I can take solace in the fact that the car is sometimes as stupid as I am. The timing marks on the 1275 are on the bottom of the cam cover, below the crankshaft. It’s my guess that they’re assuming one can roll under a car that sits 4 inches off of the ground on a creeper while it’s running, see through the crossmember with one’s x-ray vision, reach past the spinning fan while on one’s back, and adjust the distributor on a hot engine with your right hand while holding a timing light in your left.
I chose to make new hash marks on the front of the cover.
Upside – I got some very impressive backfires out of the exhaust – I’m getting spark, I’m getting fuel. I can't run it for any extended period of time until the alternator bracket shows up, but I am confident I can get it to run tomorrow. As for today, 90 degree heat and 9 hours is reason enough to take a shower and get some sleep. I’ve still got a few more tomorrows in front of me, although paint is starting to look less likely.
IT RUNS!!! IT RUNS!!! IT RUNS!!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers::cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:Oh, and the neighbors hate me! :evil:
Still have to get the alternator/water pump set up, so I could only run it for about a minute, but man-o-Manischewitz, this thing sounds suuuuuuuu-weeeeet!
Grab a glass, raise it high - this boy's going racing!.
When you get to the last run of primer re-do the mask,
If you've got a gun that'll take a 2.5mm(100thou) tip then get some primer putty . . .
dj let you ship your TRANS out there and they didnt have the material in stock----sounds like a crock to me!!!!!!!!Diest not DJ
I've got ten bucks that says you knock over the last of your color with the air-line just before you fill the pot for the last pass.....
Up close, it looks like - and here's a new word I learned from hanging out here - it looks like cack. But I won't fault Joe, who has asked that I not use his last name anymore, with respect to this car as it sits. It was my lack of prep work. That's what next year is all about.
Also, I have to remember to bring a jar of Pickles for Lynda . . .
milwaukees-midget-dill-pickles-32-oz
The plan was a dark green, but Joe wanted me to take a few minutes and dig through his vintage color catalogues. I saw this one and said, " Yeah, that'll be just pickley".
It looks pretty good form over here
G
M.M. Need to borrow a gun???????If you've got a gun that'll take a 2.5mm(100thou) tip then get some primer putty . . .
Gun?
All these strange words . . .
:wink:
Just funnin' with you, Doc.
M.M. Need to borrow a gun???????
I know this is an article about a MGB enging but it might help.
http://www.flowspeed.com/harland-sharp.htm
Nick
Goals -
1 - Get there
2 - Make some runs and sort out the chassis for next year
3 - It would be nice to turn over 100
4 - Return safely
Well - can't wait any longer. A few issues I can fix when I get there, but I've got to put some landscape in my rear view mirror.
See you on the salt. 8-)
Hey Chris, Joe here, reading with great interest. Hope all is well and good luck. Don't scratch the car!!Too late. I'll explain when I get back. Joe, welcome to the forum!
where's that Midget?..........................
. . . it is quite likely that more people will see an LSR car on a trailer being towed across Nebraska than will ever see one compete.
Come on, tell us more........
When you get home check the firing order 1342.
:?
Nick
Two areas that will kill torque are way lean and cam timing retarded. The manifold doesn't have too many areas to leak air but a pass near the gaskets with an unlit propane torch (on a running engine) can turn up a suspect area. I'd do that before pulling the engine. Ignition timing after top dead center rather than before seems less likely but check anyway. It can happen if the pulley timing marks aren't where they should be (always good to verify and paint your marks).
8-)
Chris, About 75lbs. of salt, not counting what I washed off with the hose, made it home...took about a day to get it all out. Used plenty of WD and "Zep-A-Lum".
Chris, I think (?) you are still running points / condenser? It is quite common for 'new' items (made who knows where nowadays) to fail in very short time, I try to find NOS condensers, rotor arms, points etc.Actually, I’m running the Pertronix kit, which I’ve had great success with on the MGB. It’s a hall effects sensor that is a direct replacement for the points/condenser. Pulling the distributor this weekend – I’ll double check my work. It’s academic at this point – the crank trigger waits.
Two areas that will kill torque are way lean and cam timing retarded.
A word of advice for the next time you run, pull off the course if it's not running right. :-D. No reason to hold up other drivers, and please don't take this personally.
Are you still running the bendix fuel pumpGrummy :? :-o :? :-o :?
G
Grummy :? :-o :? :-o :?
How the hell did you know that it was a Bendix, and not the stock SU? You've got cards you're not showing, or that was a lights-out bullseye.
Yes, with an external regulator.
Is there something I need to be aware of?
It's just that any time an English car has made me hold up traffic, it is usually a bendix fuel pump problem
And I would have forgotten about bendix , but I was at the Roadworthy testers the the other day and he had a Jag on the hoist that wouldn't do more than about 30. My suggestion was to replace the fuel pumps with a pair of anything else.
He rang me later to ask me the same question you did
Used to own a Landrover I did.
G
The V12's were a whole employment scheme by themselves with four pumps they kept tow truck drivers, rubber hose salesmen, mechanics , blokes who stand around watching mechanics work and parts salesmen at Bendix in a steady job for a loooooong time.
Lovely wooden dash and comfy leather seats
G
It's just that any time an English car has made me hold up traffic, it is usually a bendix fuel pump problem
And I would have forgotten about bendix , but I was at the Roadworthy testers the the other day and he had a Jag on the hoist that wouldn't do more than about 30. My suggestion was to replace the fuel pumps with a pair of anything else.
He rang me later to ask me the same question you did
Used to own a Landrover I did.
G
The Colonel , at his best. :wink:
M.M. The starter took a dump on you?? That seems a bid rude of him. :cheers:
M.M. The starter took a dump on you?? That seems a bid rude of him. :cheers:
An honest mistake. The port-o-lets had faster time slips than I did, and given the similar paint schemes, it could have been anyone.
Great how you can take this in stride and come back so well with that!
By the way – My old man finally signed up to add his 2 cents here. I’ll warn you, he’s quick as a whip.
Welcome aboard, Crew Chief.
If he is half as quick as you we are all gonna have fun!
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN3780.jpg)
It doesn’t appear to, but the Weber DOES clear the bonnet – nevertheless, shorter ram pipes and a very low profile air cleaner are in order. Probably will need to chain the engine down to keep the carb from hitting the hood under load.
Getting rid of the Metalastic will end that worry. :wink:
Geo
put a chain on it to limit the excursion.....or even a rubber band :-D...
Yep . sometimes it can be the simple things
I do some work for various motorcycle workshops around Melbourne sfter everyone else has had a try
Yesterday I got a call from a certain Vespa shop (est 1954) to come and look at an electrical problem on a modern injected Vespa
After spending three hours on it with all sorts of diagnostic tools I had not learned anything
It was when I was sitting at home watching a wasp fly around my kitchen that the penny dropped
So today, I went over to the aforementioned shop and stuck a screwdriver up the exhaust and out came the dirt and dead wasps
It can be the simplest things
The ironic part being that Vespa is the Italian word for wasp
G
There was a wasp hangin around when I was there last week wasn't there?......
Everybody should have a cheer leader and it is special when she is your wife. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)Nice article.
Stan Back...I'd love to look at those saved fotos.Hey pletty boy Freud,
I haven't had a good laugh or a good s_hit in a long time.
FREUD
I think I've fixed that, ladies and germs. Try it again. And thank (well, in the spirit of internet anonymity I won't mention Stainless' name here) the guy that suggested it in the first place.
I made the big-buck commitment this week. Down payment sent on a 2.45” stroke billet crankshaft.Hey big spender, congratulations.....send the machine shop flowers every week......that'll guarantee you get the crank ontime, or even early!
Just enough down time to read Keith Richards’ biography, "Life", thoughtfully procured for me by Kate this Christmas.
I made the big-buck commitment this week. Down payment sent on a 2.45” stroke billet crankshaft.Hey big spender, congratulations.....send the machine shop flowers every week......that'll guarantee you get the crank ontime, or even early!
Just enough down time to read Keith Richards’ biography, "Life", thoughtfully procured for me by Kate this Christmas.
Hey big spender, congratulations.....send the machine shop flowers every week......that'll guarantee you get the crank ontime, or even early!
Again, slow to the uptake on this one.
Remind me to never play poker with the Aussies.
If I send him flowers, he'll go faster, because he thinks I'm, . . .
well, you know . . .
British?
You been hitting the egg nog?
Sometimes the old trick is just too good to pass up. MG John came through with my center strap for the center main cap. I first saw this trick on a 3 main MGA a number of years ago, and it is de rigueur for most high performance A-blocks. Won’t quite clear in the Mini, but there’s plenty of room in the Spridget sump.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN3848.jpg)
It’s hardly rocket science. Machine the cap dead flat, install the strap, get yourself some longer bolts, and stabilize your bottom end. Fret not – ARP studs will be making their appearance when the crank arrives.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN3847.jpg)
Keeping Willie and Sheri in my prayers – Courage.
Mike, you're cruel!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:
Pete
:-D Subaru, I'm a Cub's fan - I can find the bright side of an imploded star.
Looks like you're not to use the hand-brake lever as a club.
I guess they want you to use a proper hammer.
If that is a "Torque Wrench" and it's got an X through it, then............ :-D
Hi Chris,
It's probably the old English saying
"If you don't know what you're doing DON'T touch" :-D
Neil :cheers:
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4081.jpg)
Mine fits. :-D
Mine fits. :-D
M.M., its the fake DOC AGAIN. Bunch of this virus stuff going on. If you get a P.M. from this ring don't tell im you SS# or your mums maiden name. Shame!
Some people learn from other people's mistakes. Usually, I'm the other people.
Here's hoping that as you get older you get faster!Or at least wiser!
Happy Birthday Chris! :cheers:
Mike
"Wow, this one has a built in alarm!", I said.
"Yep", she said, "That way, we won't sleep through the sunrise at Bonneville".
Hey...
That's not a poxy Bendix fuel pump!
G
Grummy :? :-o :? :-o :?
How the hell did you know that it was a Bendix, and not the stock SU? You've got cards you're not showing, or that was a lights-out bullseye.
Yes, with an external regulator.
Is there something I need to be aware of?
It's just that any time an English car has made me hold up traffic, it is usually a bendix fuel pump problem
And I would have forgotten about bendix , but I was at the Roadworthy testers the the other day and he had a Jag on the hoist that wouldn't do more than about 30. My suggestion was to replace the fuel pumps with a pair of anything else.
He rang me later to ask me the same question you did
Used to own a Landrover I did.
G
Correct - that's boxed up and should be on Dr. G.'s doorstep in a week or two - along with the MOWOG motor I mailed him . . .
I've been trying to get him to put the quad cam V6 in the new tank
(http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc28/grumm441/Stuff%20at%20Greys%20house/P1010147.jpg)
FREE BEER??!!
I'll guess Honda Shadow...
Get a cold beer from me at WOS if you can tell me what this is out of –
It's a moot point as I don't drink beer mate :-D
Cheers,
Rob
Rob likes Scotch, I will make sure to stock the truck before Speedweek :cheers:
Big excitement – pics of my crank, courtesy of Greg at Rody in Plymouth Michigan
No, that was the picture of congressman Weiner's crank.QuoteBig excitement – pics of my crank, courtesy of Greg at Rody in Plymouth Michigan
did the cuss filter do that?
Assembling that has to be more fun than figuring out the head restraints! :evil:
Chris --
Work on the push vehicle, too. With a faster push, you're sure to beat last year's effort -- even if it won't run.
Stan
I do intend to take this thing down to Great Lakes Dragaway for a tune and test night. Better to embarrass yourself 40 miles from home than 1500. :wink:
I do intend to take this thing down to Great Lakes Dragaway for a tune and test night. Better to embarrass yourself 40 miles from home than 1500. :wink:
Chris, now you are talking! What does a more or less stock MG Midget do for a 1/4 time? What time are you hoping to achieve with your modified but smaller power plant?
"Better to embarrass yourself 40 miles from home than 1500. "
I dunno.... 40 miles away, too many people would know who I was. :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I do intend to take this thing down to Great Lakes Dragaway for a tune and test night. Better to embarrass yourself 40 miles from home than 1500. :wink:
75 lbs of shavings later -
Enlighten me for being dense, but which is the back of the piston?
Get the pistons coated instead
G
MM,
I agree with you on the additional 4 leaks in the oiling system. I don't think the British overbuilt very many parts, and the oil pump may be at it's limit. One of our BSA B50 forum members actually measured oil pressure and found that at high RPM's, it became negative. His reasoning was that the centrifugal pump effect of the rotating crank was actually sucking more oil than the pump could provide. So just when you need it most, the squirters could fail. Scarey. I like the idea of ceramic coating of the piston, but with only 10 days til Loring, I won't have enough time. At least at Loring, I won't have to hold it WOT very long (I'll probably ride the 1st mile quite leasurely, then open it up).
Tom
MM,
I agree with you on the additional 4 leaks in the oiling system. I don't think the British overbuilt very many parts, and the oil pump may be at it's limit. One of our BSA B50 forum members actually measured oil pressure and found that at high RPM's, it became negative. His reasoning was that the centrifugal pump effect of the rotating crank was actually sucking more oil than the pump could provide. So just when you need it most, the squirters could fail. Scarey. I like the idea of ceramic coating of the piston, but with only 10 days til Loring, I won't have enough time. At least at Loring, I won't have to hold it WOT very long (I'll probably ride the 1st mile quite leasurely, then open it up).
Tom
I got the crowns ceramic coated and the skirts moly coated after seeing the disaster that was the last engine that I didn't build
The negative oil pressure could also be a combination of the centrifugal crank filtering setup and a cavitation problem at the oil pickup. this is usually where Dr Goggs pipes in about not getting me started on cavitation and oil or fuel pumps.
But it made me laugh thinking of negative oil pressure. Only the English could make an oiling system that worked in reverse
G
Chris, it's looking good! Crank looks awesome.
SUPPOSEDLY going to nitride tomorrow...
"The dog ate your homework?"
Oh, and I don't think Stan's comment was directed towards you- I believe it was in reference to Rich's comment about 'creative apologies'!
Chris --
Can you show us how you've come along on the I/GT emblem outta the Midget chrome strip. You could always work on it to get ready for the show season -- with or without a crank. Just stuff some angel hair in there where the crank belongs.
Stan
I guess I'm guilty of hijacking this thread.
The EV Patrician is an awesome speaker! Very rare, too. I have a pair of Klipsch La Scala folded horns in my workshop driven by an old Marantz 60W amplifier but they only need a watt or so.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I guess I'm guilty of hijacking this thread.
The EV Patrician is an awesome speaker! Very rare, too. I have a pair of Klipsch La Scala folded horns in my workshop driven by an old Marantz 60W amplifier but they only need a watt or so.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Bass player over my back fence suffered a neck injury one day when he was driving along and saw a pair of Klipsch theatre monitors sitting out for hard rubbish collection........ I think he got a back injury loading them into his car....swapped them for some highly drooled over english reference speakers.
I have a pair of cylindrical JR's , they're really nice but I also have a pair of 12 inch Celefs...... my dad bought both pairs in 1978 .
um, Chris- Are you building a race car, or a 'band' wagon? :evil:
If he loaded them into his car, they were not La Scalas-- those would fit in the bed of a pickup but not in a car-- they also weigh 127 lbs apiece!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I'm not in this one, but me, my singer, and the other guitarist were running wireless and pimping the crowd along the route.Wireless????.....next you'll be using transistors!!!
Wireless????.....next you'll be using transistors!!!
make a donation to the poor box and say three hundred hail Leos
Wireless????.....next you'll be using transistors!!!
make a donation to the poor box and say three hundred hail Leos
Oh, dear - somebody got their Mullards in a twist . . . :wink:
Chris, as long as we're talking about your car -- I'm wiring audio connectors. The mic has two wires and the XLR, to which I've gotta connect the mic, has three. Hot or ground to pin 2? What about 1 & 3? I'm cornfused. Please help.
Wireless????.....next you'll be using transistors!!!
make a donation to the poor box and say three hundred hail Leos
Oh, dear - somebody got their Mullards in a twist . . . :wink:
Hey Svetlana, don't get RCA with me! else I'll have to do some rectification you by putting a choke on you.
Dr " they don't just sound good, I love the way they SMELL" Goggles.........
"Okay, let's talk about the preamps in the Tele Elites . . . "
It won't work without Burr-Brown op amps :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
"Okay, let's talk about the preamps in the Tele Elites . . . "
It won't work without Burr-Brown op amps :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
"Okay, let's talk about the preamps in the Tele Elites . . . "
It won't work without Burr-Brown op amps :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Neil, I think Dr. Tube is fighting the battle with JRC's. :-D
Anyone taking parts from a Hammond B3 should be skinned at Sundown.
I used to have a pair of JBL 14" studio monitors which would blow out wooden match's. Why the match's were lit is another story............ :roll:
Now listening to a pair of Klipsch Folded Horns with a old Sansui 5000X........ and working on the race car........
:cheers: :cheers: :roll: Bob
I'm thinking about the race car right now....
hurry up and get yr car sorted Christophel
Well, let's see -
A Musicman RD210, a couple of Telecasters, a fist full of OP Amps, my drummer, the PA, a pair of Klipsch La Scalas, the audio interface for the Landracing.com webcast - as long as I don't have to drive it, I'm golden. :cheers:
NACA air inlet source found - check :) We are considering them too for fresh air in our Urban LSR car - last year we had 2" pop-out vents used on airplanes like a Piper Cub etc.
Thanks Chris
NACA air inlet source found - check :) We are considering them too for fresh air in our Urban LSR car - last year we had 2" pop-out vents used on airplanes like a Piper Cub etc.
Thanks Chris
NACA duct sent. Glad to help the class.
Chris, Glad you are working up speed. Did I read you were going to the strip to test. And the results?
Geo
Midget, well that's all great but I am more concerned about your crank................... er, I mean, blush, your thingy, blush, you know............... those parts you are waiting for......................
whew, the Dang crankshaft.............................. Bob :-o :-D :roll: :evil:
If I knew the word for it I'd pull it out now, there may not be a word for it but one thing is for certain ....it exists.
what is it?
It is the chance of everything in a landracing build happening to plan........ sometimes you get lucky like we did this year....... If the meet wasn't cancelled here we would have taken the car ( which had a rev limiting bug in it) and probably broken something just like we did the year before at about 193mph.......then we would have gone home about 10k poorer and no faster...
Sometimes you get really unlucky..( insert any one of a million stories here), or injured.......
Compound errors in time management get expensive when you're impatient......"bugger it , let's just buy one"...."but they're three times as expensive!"...." it's do that or wait til next year".......
It gets us every time.....them Langlos are burning the midnight oil right now .......
The fact is ,if it was easy, and predictable , and there was a schedule, and a plan ,
we wouldn't be here. :wink:
Cris, if you can lower your standads a bit, you are welcome to hang out in a pit full of Studebaker nuts who sniff nitro for breakfast................
I have, however, lowered my standard's and have a crewman who own's a MG............... perish the thought.
I think he is just here for the glory........................... not a real racer.............. :-D
If I knew the word for it I'd pull it out now, there may not be a word for it but one thing is for certain ....it exists.
what is it?
It is the chance of everything in a landracing build happening to plan........ sometimes you get lucky like we did this year....... If the meet wasn't cancelled here we would have taken the car ( which had a rev limiting bug in it) and probably broken something just like we did the year before at about 193mph.......then we would have gone home about 10k poorer and no faster...
budget meeting?
G
budget meeting?
G
Cris, if you can lower your standads a bit, you are welcome to hang out in a pit full of Studebaker nuts who sniff nitro for breakfast................
I have, however, lowered my standard's and have a crewman who own's a MG............... perish the thought.
I think he is just here for the glory........................... not a real racer.............. :-D
*snip*
During this build, dealing with racing parts suppliers around the country and around the world, in what is arguably a very male oriented industry, some of the most insightful and informative help I’ve received has been from women in the industry.
Chris, you sound as though you may also have the sniffles. You can't be too careful. :wink: Wayno
A stitch in time, give yourself a chance to recuperate now and you won't have to take three days off....I think you have a case of BMC fever, the only cure is homeopathic, apply liberal doses of Lucas ointment and wrap tightly with a Bendix bandage, be sure to cover your hands with string backed gloves and drink lots of tea.
You'll be right..... :wink:
Chris, you sound as though you may also have the sniffles. You can't be too careful. :wink: Wayno
A stitch in time, give yourself a chance to recuperate now and you won't have to take three days off....I think you have a case of BMC fever, the only cure is homeopathic, apply liberal doses of Lucas ointment and wrap tightly with a Bendix bandage, be sure to cover your hands with string backed gloves and drink lots of tea.
You'll be right..... :wink:
Nice crank, seems to be missing a couple main journals......... :? :-o :cheers:
"One per exhaust port is my understanding . . . "
Thats the official Whitworth formula, rite?
You can take it to your local machine shop with a crank grinder and have them bump the thrust surface to open it up. Most can do that while you wait.
Chris, you get everything figured out?
Midget.......You picked a great crowd.
It was my joy to meet you.
FREUD
Chris--The Torch set I can understand--but a pic of Adams butt...hmmmm... :evil:
Chris, are you giving up on the year, or are you going to try WF?
I'm waiting to hear how that cam checks out today!
Have you ever doped up a gasket, only to realize that the part that you need to hold the gasket - you know - like, oh, the water pump - is nowhere to be found? :roll:
Yeah, I don't want to do that again . . .
. . . and as I couldn't get to sleep, I went ahead and assembled the pistons and rings.
Hey Bronze Fonz ,we're talking holy words here I don't want you "general-izing"....
MM;(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/No6.png)
"I am not a number, I am a free man!" .....from "The Prisoner", right?
Regards, Neil (San Deigo, CA)
.....actually,no-one who knows me would trust me to assemble a motor in even my most lucid moments, let alone in a moment when I should be akip.
I'm loving watching though, Lilliput engine reconditioners. :cheers:
Stop.
Take a break.
Walk away.
Think it through.
Exhaust valve in #1 hits the piston.
Take a break.
Think it through.
I'll be back.
They probably all do then or at least come pretty close. It should be a pretty simple machining operation to provide clearance.
Pete
Exhaust valve in #1 hits the piston.
Mmmm, on my MGA all the exhaust valves hit the block. I had to eyebrow clearance each cylinder and then blend a ramp into the piston.
Hey, Anvil* - Were you putting a MkII head on a 1500 block?
Wait a minute - let me look at that again.Just as a check I like to use the points on either side at .050 and .100 and compare that to where open and close events are supposed to be on the cam chart. Hopefully the centerlines and the open/close events will sort out soon for all four cylinders.
Interesting cam spec.............My guess is an APT SPVP5......You want that thing to rev...
don't you! :-D
With his short stroke it probably would change the static CR too much, unlike the 6-3/8 Caddy stroke you're working with.
The valves are completely vertical to the pistons
The valves are completely vertical to the pistons
Eyebrows aren't going to help our friend here if I read correctly ,zero cant.
I read back through the previous couple of pages and I am not sure so I will ask. Did you try setting the cam with the .050 lift opening and closing figures from the cam card?
Chris try the Cometic MLS head gasket around .090 or so.
Charles
Everything I've read tells me .080 clearance on the intakes, .100 on the exhaust. The valves are completely vertical to the pistons, the rods are steel, and the valve train is very stable.
Chris
That's a lot of cam for a small engine, I ran a megadyne 310 in a 1293; below 4K it ran like 3 leads were unplugged and came on like a switch. It revved plenty, but I'm pretty sure a milder cam would have made more power. You might find you make more power with standard ratio rockers? Anyway, good luck with it all, I'm looking forward to seeing the results :)
Andy
If I were doing ANY OTHER type of racing, this combination wouldn't receive a second thought. Part of the trouble I've had sussing out information is that when people talk Sprites/Midgets/Minis, they're almost always talking road racing, hill climbing or rally - poked and stroked up to 1500 cc's - and with good reason - that's where the racing history and engineering of this engine has been grounded for better than 50 years.
Cheers, Mate! :cheers:
:roll: , :cheers: ,
Thanks 4-Barrel Mike,
If you happen to have time go on the link that Mike provided and watch all of the Dave Vizard videos on the Mini engine. So much of what he is talking about applies to all engines. I have always liked Vizard's writing but to listen to him and his level of knowledge and common sense is very enlightening. Time well spent.
Rex
The video series which you mentioned, and Mike posted, is a presentation using David Vizard's book, "Tuning the A Series Engine" as a framework - a book I have all but torn the spine off of, lo these past few years.
The video series which you mentioned, and Mike posted, is a presentation using David Vizard's book, "Tuning the A Series Engine" as a framework - a book I have all but torn the spine off of, lo these past few years.
I had two well dressed young men at my door asking if I was familiar with the Bible and in particular the book of Mormon
I began to tell them about Tuning for Speed by A.Graham Bell. They left?
G
The video series which you mentioned, and Mike posted, is a presentation using David Vizard's book, "Tuning the A Series Engine" as a framework - a book I have all but torn the spine off of, lo these past few years.
I had two well dressed young men at my door asking if I was familiar with the Bible and in particular the book of Mormon
I began to tell them about Tuning for Speed by A.Graham Bell. They left?
G
My approach is to let them get started , then ask to interupt and say" OK, look if I was interested in buying what it is you're selling I'd go to one of the recognized retail outlets"
Around here , you see someone on your doorstep, you lock and load :-D
G
Okay, boys and girls, let’s go down the laboratory and see what doesn’t fit today.
Of course - the head gasket. Why should a CAD developed gasket from a world renowned maker of competition gaskets just drop into place?
{I'm still waiting for someone to pick me up on "tuning for speed".... }
{I'm still waiting for someone to pick me up on "tuning for speed".... }
OK Grumm you got me out of my chair and over to the bookcase, A.Graham Bell book was Performance Tuning in theory and practice. I've got his two stroke one as well!
Was 'Tuning for Speed' Phil Irving ?
:wink:
Couldn't you have taken the studs out, put the gasket on, put the studs back in?
Or are the holes in a different spot?
G
{I'm still waiting for someone to pick me up on "tuning for speed".... }
{I'm still waiting for someone to pick me up on "tuning for speed".... }
{I'm still waiting for someone to pick me up on "tuning for speed".... }
Well, now I know why I haven't heard of it.
It's about MOTORCYCLE engines.
So what you're saying is that there were 3 heretics arguing religion on your doorstep? :roll:
{I'm still waiting for someone to pick me up on "tuning for speed".... }
Well, now I know why I haven't heard of it.
It's about MOTORCYCLE engines.
So what you're saying is that there were 3 heretics arguing religion on your doorstep? :roll:
Not just any motorcycle engines
G
What figures are you looking for at the drag strip?
1/8 or 1/4-mile?
If you have trouble hooking up I can lend you my wide drag racing tires- 175 70 R13s. :)What figures are you looking for at the drag strip?
1/8 or 1/4-mile?
GLD is 1/4 mile. ET's aren't my concern - I want to confirm that it runs, take a few leisurly passes to be sure it's holding together, and before I leave, I hope to see if it will pull past peak power in 3rd.
4:22 gears, 155/80 R 13 radials on the back.
Well, maybe I'll try a smoky burn-out . . . :evil:
Limited goals, realistic objectives.
MM,
We talked earlier about oil squirters vs. ceramic coated pistons. Just wanted to let you know that after 14 passes (5 at Loring and 9 at Bonneville), I took the BSA apart to find no significant damage. The ceramic coated piston must have helped because the pin was still loose in the piston, with no positive oiling system beyond the big end and what drains back from the rocker box onto the crank. Underside of piston is a light carmel color. The rod bearing (inserts) were starting to flake, but no other damage.
Tom
Chris,
Looks like your patience is paying off!!! Good luck with your testing and can't wait to hear how you do at Maxton!!! Congratulations....it's an LSR car!!!! :cheers: :cheers:
Lynda
If you have trouble hooking up I can lend you my wide drag racing tires- 175 70 R13s. :)
If you have trouble hooking up I can lend you my wide drag racing tires- 175 70 R13s. :)
ahem, Chris.......I think you just got "owned" by the young fella. :roll:
Chris, is that a new starter? I think you had starting woes before?
There are two types of flywheel ring gear (on a Mini anyway) the later pre engaged type don't mesh with the earlier inertia type :-P
Oh and that's an interesting looking blanking plug in the dizzy drive hole :?
Are you still using the factory 'bullet' for the pressure releif valve behind your new adjuster? Some guys like to swap it for a ball bearing, 3/8 I think, out of a mini CV Joint!
Cheers! 8-)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4406.jpg)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4408.jpg)
It did, but now my garage floor is a stinking mess, and I had to keep pumping the darned thing to keep it from slowly drifting into the engine bay. Under normal circumstances, this is a one man project, and in fact, when I originally pulled the engine when I got the car, I did it by hand. It wasn’t easy, and I won’t do it again, but I pity the SOB that winds up renting this piece of trash to try to install a big block Chevy into his pickup.
I have no intention of paying for its use – this was a joke, and a dangerous one at that.
BUT – it’s in.
Will Madam Midget be at the track to take some shots?......
Congrats! maybe you are rounding a corner?
Riddle me this – why is it that EVERY TIME you realize you need a #8 fine thread cap screw, you glance at the clock and suffer the bitter realization that the hardware store closes in 3 minutes? Same thing with beer. You pour back the last of your backwash, go down to the beer fridge, only to discover you're out, it's 8:57 PM, and the liquor store closes at 9:00?
For yourself, you just need to keep at least two days of beer stocked at all times. Any number of natural disasters could occur and prevent a beer run. It's best to be prepaired at all times. 8-)
Riddle me this – why is it that EVERY TIME you realize you need a #8 fine thread cap screw, you glance at the clock and suffer the bitter realization that the hardware store closes in 3 minutes? Same thing with beer. You pour back the last of your backwash, go down to the beer fridge, only to discover you're out, it's 8:57 PM, and the liquor store closes at 9:00?
Sounds like you're doing great, except for the inventory control problems.
Screws, you just need to get at least ten more than you need each time and get more if you use any of the last ten on something. Well that and a place to keep them. That's the easy bit.
Beer or ale... I would say the first problem is that it's backwash, but it may be your friends keep a more accurate inventory on your suds than you do. This is where they often offer to go fetch a couple. A "friend" can help and fetch until you're out then go find another place to be. Buying good ale only seems to compound this problem. You may also find they know about how much time will pass before you stock up again. You could try to move a portion of your stock into an ice chest when they call to come over and see what happens or even move all but two and ask they pick up more on the way if they call.
For yourself, you just need to keep at least two days of beer stocked at all times. Any number of natural disasters could occur and prevent a beer run. It's best to be prepaired at all times. 8-)
The new avatar - is that a Torino?
Ahh, the XL - the perfect cross between a T-bird and an LTD. I recall you could get one with a 429 and a 4-gear. Good to see one racing.
Didn't Burt Reynolds drive one in "White Lightning"?
Oh, and does this little dog have have a big, nasty bark!
:cheers:
I've got a running engine on my hands!
Get that clutch bled and take her around the block so that the neighbors can properly share your joy! :mrgreen:
Well done! :cheers:
Mike
Audio is good here in Webster Groves.
. Let's face it, 5 minutes of idling and dead revving are not going to give me an accurate read.
. Let's face it, 5 minutes of idling and dead revving are not going to give me an accurate read.
like um, where the motor goes when it's under load.....you've got that torque strap on it right?
Ya know, If I'd been kickin around in your shed with you under that car...after I'd stopped laughing .....I'd have gone and got the Cojones rubber band.....nothing quite like a BIG guy working under a LITTLE car :-o :-D :-D
like um, where the motor goes when it's under load.....you've got that torque strap on it right?
Anybody have any idea what type of threads bleeder valves typically have? Are they straight or pipe?
I've owned a lot of four bangers, including a few with counterbalance shafts, and I still can't get over just how smooth this thing is.
Hey I found some stuff for you! :-D
http://www.british-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/clutch-slave-cylinder-2010050915334421170.htm
http://www.mgexperience.net/phorum/read.php?3,1775330
The first one looks a simple install....... :cheers:
You know, as old as this thing is in its design, and as ubiquitous as they are, when working on one, one must remember that the Midget/Sprite started out as a bin car, and one not too far removed from a kit car, at that.
The engine, transmission, brakes, rear end, suspension - all out of the Morris Minor - all production pieces that were never intended to be put together in a package this small. It was Don Healey's aim to make a cheap sports car using as many production pieces as possible, in a simple stamped psuedo-monocoque that could be thrown together quickly and easily.
To that end, it's a raging success.
To those of us who, 53 years later, are cursed to have to work around his workarounds, well, there are times I'd like to punch old Don right in the puss.
.
I can't imaging that the Midge is more of a pain to work on than an XJ......when was the last time you had to remove the entire rear superstructure of a car to remove the brake pads?
I can't imaging that the Midge is more of a pain to work on than an XJ......when was the last time you had to remove the entire rear superstructure of a car to remove the brake pads?
What I could never fathom though was the Poms reluctance to steal obvious and simple construction and production methods that were commonplace elswhere......too many parts, too many bolts.
Graham - is this the piece to which you are referring?
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=dcoe+%22Spill+jet%22&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1038&bih=489&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=II-uKJh-ywLc2M:&imgrefurl=http://www.weberperformance.com.au/index.php%3FcPath%3D6_13&docid=HJ-uLBBSUePyAM&imgurl=http://www.weberperformance.com.au/images/spill%252520jet-150.jpg&w=150&h=113&ei=okCjTtyBMqOGsgK28KWQBQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=137&vpy=200&dur=2893&hovh=90&hovw=120&tx=106&ty=56&sig=106358393424742230139&page=1&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&start=0&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
Seems "Spill Jet" might be an Aussie-ism? I just want to be sure - After all, we're dealing with an Italian designed carburettor with a German name, produced in Spain, being installed on a British car in America by a guy with Czech heritage, asking an Australian for advice.
:cheers:To run on Tralfamador? :-P WaynoSometimes it DOES seem like an intergalactic zoo around here.
WTF is this Tralfamador business? do i need some chemical stimulants :-o
:-D :cheers:
:evil: :cheers: :-D now back to the carb issue!
Just to save you one more issue, it seems I remember you saying you'd pulled the carb down tight to preclude any problems. I should have said something at the time but didn't. I don't think it has anything to do with your present problem but when you do get things running I'll almost guarantee there will be issues. I've been through this and the reason for the sloppy feeling mounting is that it stops harmonics going to the carb which affect the fuel flow within the carb. Hope things get cleared up.
Pete
I'm getting a better shot out of the accelerator pump, and I've lost some initial bog, but another clandestine trip up and down the ally indicates I've still got no acceleration under load.
Help?
Hey Chris
Why don't you reset the retard to zero° on the knock sensor so as it does nothing but record the event
I did it with spigot of sunshine motor on the dyno.
It didn't fix the problem, but it ruled out the knock sensor.
My only other suggestion would be to put the distributor back in it and see how it runs
If it fixes it, you know it's in the ignition system, if it doesn't, you know it's not
G
Chris, do you have enough parts around to put on a pair of Skinner Unions. If the car acted similarly then you can chase the ignition, otherwise I'd find a Weber guru, probably from the road racing crowd and let him go over things. To me the severe lack of performance sounds like more than ignition.
Just Guessing!
Pete
I seem to remember a tale about knock sensors not playing well with solid lifters.
I seem to remember a tale about knock sensors not playing well with solid lifters.
??!! :-o
That makes huge sense. A knock sensor is nothing more than a microphone, I've got .018 lash, virtually no ramp and a very rapid lift profile.
Hmmm . . .
That's a lot of cam for a small engine, I ran a megadyne 310 in a 1293; below 4K it ran like 3 leads were unplugged and came on like a switch. It revved plenty, but I'm pretty sure a milder cam would have made more power.
What? Goggles with nothing to add.Nothing? Now I feel pain. False alarm, it was just gas.
What? Goggles with nothing to add.Nothing? Now I feel pain. False alarm, it was just gas.
The good Doctor knows what he knows, and knows what he doesn't know - which makes him wiser than me.
Dodge the transmission, screw the diff, clutches are cheap - full speed ahead.
I held it open against the 9K limiter tonight - and I mean I just held it there. It's hitting on all 4, it doesn't vibrate, the clutch is new, the driveshaft is balanced, it sounds awesome.
I suspect it's just time I learned how to drive a peaky, tempermental race car.
Hell, I've only got to go a mile with it.
The Midget was in full song the length of the Maxton Mile this morning.
They left with big smiles.
Postmortem – Maxton.
Revving ones engine in the rain only aggravates the ECTA official who has to walk over and remind you that you’re interrupting the drivers meeting – which you’re supposed to be attending. :oops:
Using an 8,000 rpm tach on an engine that wants to run at 9,500 is kind of useless. :roll:
Piloting a 1600 lb car with an 80 inch wheelbase on a rough concrete surface without taking the time to properly align the front end is just silly – and eye-opening. :-o
Attempting to datalog with a laptop on the floor won’t work if you don’t plug the computer in. :wink:
Furthermore, once you’re strapped in and in line, with a helmet, head sock, bifocals and a visor down, punching the “Record” button on a laptop is tough. :-P
Sometimes, using an ice scraper as a prop rod for the trunk of a race car is a good idea – especially when you arrive to find frost on your windows. The “accidental preparedness” clause applies here. 8-)
Leaving one's helmet in sub-freezing conditions leads to undue condensation on the inside of the visor while racing. Avoiding exhalation works for a very short time, but eventually only complicates the matter. :|
I'm glad you are home, Midget.
But it also felt good to participate, didn't it?
FREUD
Good try Chris.
Give Dick a call at MG Ltd. Most people are unaware that he makes custom intake manifolds.
Chris,
Get the alignment confirmed for sure but that could very well have been considerably less that 100% of the problems you had. A couple of drivers whose opinions I value mentioned their rigs [both relatively small and light] doing your "water bug dance" due to the wind on Sat.
Ed
Thanks for all the encouragement and ribbing. I'm finally confident that I'm heading in the right direction.
As was my suspicion, up until now, I simply had no place to find out when the engine came on the cam. It appears to up there a ways. Unfortunately, I didn't take particularly good notes, but I do need to launch it above 4500 or 5k to get it over the hump, and it will just stumble until the momentum of the air through the head starts to hit the sweet spot.
I've got two thoughts in mind to try to build up the lower end of the powerband. 1st off, I'm thinking of going with a slightly smaller set of venturis in the carb, in hopes that the flow rate will pick up a bit at a lower RPM. I don't think I've got any restriction of consequence on the intake side, and getting the intake speed up should be somewhat helpful.
Hey Chris, if your exhaust note's annoying and by several accounts it is, you're probably on the right track. :evil: :evil: :-D
Pete
Cool. :cheers: It's not a splendid afternoon at the "White Goose Bar" but it'll have to do. :-D Wayno
I'll keep my eyes (ears) open. 8-) WaynoCool. :cheers: It's not a splendid afternoon at the "White Goose Bar" but it'll have to do. :-D Wayno
Well, the steel player left - they always do . . . they ALWAYS do - and we're looking for a harp player. :roll:
91.913 - in 3rd gear - ran out of track.
Chris, I still have those latches for you.
Are you just going to listen for audible knock? If so, you might not catch when it really starts. You might want to ask the dyno guys if they have knock detection tools, like this:
http://store.apexspeedtech.com/phormula-ks-pro-knock-analyser
Knock sensor can be pretty tricky to set up and its not for the faint of heart, because you have to induce knock to do it. Be careful.
Congrats on a cracking run :cheers: I don't swing by that often, but when I do I like to check on your progres. :)
With my 1293 coming on at 4K I'm not surprised at your 1000 coming on at over 5K. I had that 7" maniflow manifold on my mini (45DCOE, 38mm venturis), you might find more bottom end after playing with inlet and exhaust lengths, but I still think it's too much cam. You won't like my sugestion, but I'd give it a go with standard ratio rockers to get rid of some of the overlap.
I'd love you to prove me wrong so please carry on with your current plan, but humour me and keep that rocker idea in the back of your mind.
Can you run an IDA? Your trumpets are awful close to your inner arch.
Andy
Good luck on the dyno Chris. I'd like to help you out, but I'm leaving for Florida Thursday morning. Which one are you going to use, King Motorsports?
Thanks Andy. Don't think I wasn't thinking of your advice when I tried to launch this thing last weekend! :wink:I think for a quick looksie I'd just stitch up what you have and stone the steps off the rocker pads. If it's better then think about how to do a better job of it.
I won't rule it out, but if I go that way, I'll want to try to locate a set of forged Rovers, or maybe stitch up a set of my stamped pieces. I don't know that I'm up to setting up another set of Harland-Sharpes.
Andy, let me throw this idea at you. The A-series likes a bigger exhaust opening - any thoughts on maybe ordering up a set of 1.3's for the intake and keeping the 1.5's on the exhaust? :roll:
An IDA would protrude through the hood - not legal in GT class. But it is a nice, cool, dead-air space where the trumpets sit now - I'm not to worried about that.
Until 2009 I had only attended Bonneville even thought it has now been 126 times.
But when I first walked on the dirt I had a feeling of at last experiencing the real deal.
Chicken skin, a lump in the throat and tears on my cheeks.
I was alone with history and I was humbled.
After all, racers ran on the dirt years before any hot rodder ran at B'ville.
HEROS emerge from the dirt.
God, Bless the DIRT.
FREUD
"Hey, idiot! Shift Now" lights are dandy, but you car guys have it easy. You can see (or feel) what gear you're in just by noting the position of the lever (okay, in most stock-type trans, at least). But on bikes -- the lever makes the same move over and over, even when you get to high gear, so a shift light is nice, but- - -
A couple of years ago I was teching a Brit's bike at bonneville and noticed he had two shift lights on the dash. I asked, and he explained: "This one is my "Shift" light, and the other one is my "Don't shift any more!" light for when I get into high gear". :-D
That's the guy !!
. . .
The little puke.
FREUD
How about .1 HP/cc?
How about .1 HP/cc?
Oops! :-P Thanks Stan! :-D
Chris I take it the figure is at the wheels, but, no sweat, rolling roads are really only best for comparison of improvements, not the final figure!
after the Ray The Rat incident
Chris, I think you meant to say Interested Observer not Interested Bystander. Tony
Thanx for that. I was thinking that it took X HP to turn a transmission at Y RPM, X HP to turn a rear end at Y RPM. There I go thinking again. A hobby this late in life I'm sure not to master.
Stan
Chris, the Eagle has left the building. Look for Sat? Wisco is close, Priority mail box.And the Wort is Wapped and Weddy. I'll PM you a twacking # on Fwiday.
Thanks, Rick. I'm seeing "S=3" on your first printout - is the "S" the "smoothing"?
Anybody got a definition of what that means?
Thanks, Rick. I'm seeing "S=3" on your first printout - is the "S" the "smoothing"?
Anybody got a definition of what that means?
yes S=3 is smoothing factor 3
I have never seen a dyno graph so full of spikes as yours.
the only time I see spikes on my dyno is when the engine misfires bad or the tach signal is getting corrupted.
listening to your video your engine appears to be misfiring.
10 to 1 is the lower limit on most wide band units so it could be richer even, I would expect your engine to misfire being that rich.
Chris, the Eagle is in the nest and all eggs are fine :cheers:
Chris, the Eagle is in the nest and all eggs are fine :cheers:
Eagle eggs!?!? :? I thought I sent you beer! :-o
No, the Eagle eggs were supposed to go to the research aviary at the University of Wisconsin - La Crosse! :|
The LAST thing a bunch of UWLX post grad students need is more BEER! :wink:
Should I send out call tags?
Enjoy! :cheers:
Chris
Midget, did you survive the New Years celebrations?
FREUD
I have - I don't know about my reputation, though.
My "friends" haven't posted any youtube links - that's promising.
Chris
there's one of my dearest with hair over her face like Cousin It and yours truly with a finger jammed in nose and a vacant stare doing the rounds on oldfartbook.........
no, you won't be able to find it. :wink:
Hi Chris. Glad it's not serious. Use the Teflon seals without the springs.
Hi Chris. Glad it's not serious. Use the Teflon seals without the springs.
Don, let me see what it looks like when it comes apart.
So . . . the Brew City Road and Track Timing Association Flying Circus (BCRTTAFC) has meetings just up the street from where I work?
On Tuesdays?
With 2 for 3 rail drinks?
And an open jam?
That's convenient. :cheers:
Mowog?
Wasn't that the kid from jungle book
G
. . . we are supposed to be talking about Chris's kaa.. :wink:
using the seals as bump stopsThat seems to be the case. I'm looking at a set of modified Triumph-type guides with the teflon seals.
What valve springs do you use? They look like singles. I used ISKY springs,although only to 8500. You'll need something special for the revs you want. Your valves sounded like they were floating in the clip you posted, maybe it's the sound quality, or maybe it's just me, but it sounded strained at high revs.
I never used stem seals.
Andy
One trick I've only seen on motorcycles is to cut an internal O-ring groove near the valve head end of the valve guide (intake). The exhaust can be run without a seal since it won't mess up an engine using carbs without O2 feedback.
Other than that, I had a bit of an E-Bay frenzy - selling off some items from my basement. It's amazing how you can turn a mandocello, some yestertech guitar gear and a few old speakers into a Hans device - or at least enough cash to get one. It's got me seriously looking a little deeper into my closets - this racing stuff is EXSPENSIVE!
Other than that, I had a bit of an E-Bay frenzy - selling off some items from my basement. It's amazing how you can turn a mandocello, some yestertech guitar gear and a few old speakers into a Hans device - or at least enough cash to get one. It's got me seriously looking a little deeper into my closets - this racing stuff is EXSPENSIVE!
pity I didn't think of my mate Mick for that Mandocello, you could have bought a HANS if he'd bought it.
I'll give you $500USDfor that crappy ol' Vibro-King :wink:
Yours in Telecasters Dr G.
Chris, My advice would be to stick to the 'canned' and 'bottled' portion of the meal! :-D
Let's see if this will work. :wink:
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN4582.jpg)
Let's see if this will work. :wink:
Looks good, Chris! :cheers:Don't know, Buddy - your idea might be safer . . .
That certainly makes more sense than what I was thinking :-D:
If you're in Minneapolis, head to any good liquor store for a four-pack of Surly Brewing Co tall boys.
Geo
Does the beer give you the muscle building protein to have the strength bend those float wires, or the vision to see when they are level? :-D
I am lazy today, did you post a link to your music?
I am lazy today, did you post a link to your music?
In fear of having to smack down a bunch of other hecklers -
http://honkytonkitis.net/
I am lazy today, did you post a link to your music?
In fear of having to smack down a bunch of other hecklers -
http://honkytonkitis.net/
Chris, who is LeRoy?
Chris, who is LeRoy?
I'm fixin' to fill the webcast bandwidth with Honkitonitis if allowed back at The Shootout in September.
Grumm, I assembled bicycles whilst attending university in Germany, including building wheels, 'cept the head mogo kept the truing stand on his office desk and would always say, "Jah, jah, I'll teech you, but now, pleeze, I am too busy." I think he was afraid I'd marry his daughter. Got back to Seattle eventually and built wheels at Poke's Cycle to become proficient.
Might have to order a few more Milwaukee's finest CDs to give to my local community radio station to bring on the twang.
Chris, who is LeRoy?
Max - did you ever see the movie Spartacus? :wink:
Chris, who is LeRoy?
Max - did you ever see the movie Spartacus? :wink:
Leroy Anderson, The Phantom Regiment? Needs more cowbell. Or the chuff & puff of my long gone recalcitrant Matchless G80.
Chris, who is LeRoy?
Max - did you ever see the movie Spartacus? :wink:
Leroy Anderson, The Phantom Regiment? Needs more cowbell. Or the chuff & puff of my long gone recalcitrant Matchless G80.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I%20am%20spartacus
I don't believe we can show that particular clip o. The teev
In Aus anymore. Non PC
G
... Seems we've misplaced "sense" somewhere between "sensational" and "sensitive"...I'll keep repeating that line until it rolls effortlessly off my tongue...
Seems we've misplaced "sense" somewhere between "sensational" and "sensitive".
5000 people pose naked for an hour in front of the Sydney Opera House, and it's called "art", but a 40 year old Monty Python script that ties the words "G'day" and "sheep" together is non grata.
Seems we've misplaced "sense" somewhere between "sensational" and "sensitive".
Do they coincide with the valve guides that looked like they copped the worst pounding?
jon
Although looking at that picture, is it possible the pushrod is running into the body of the rocker at full lift.
G
Fordboy628, welcome to the forum, and again, thanks for your time and interest.
You're looking for Microbrews, eh? Ask Tman about my selections for out-of-towners - I'll always trade time/parts/conversation for beer.
If you spend a little more time on these forums, you will see some builds and projects that are so out of the ordinary, so varied, and just so darned interesting, you'll wonder why you haven't been here before.
We take cat skinning to the next level - we actually develop recipes. :wink:
Every now and then, you’re scoping out the Flea-Bay, and something comes up you just don’t expect. You may not wind up buying it, but it might lead to a very enlightening conversation with the seller.
I would kill for some 3 Floyds right now!
indeed, I see big things for little car...............................
Yep Chris, you learn the dangedest thangs from the some stranges sources (eeek-bay)
Frank
Any idea when this dyno sorting session may occur? Would like to plan in advance if a Bears fan wasn't risking life/limb to venture forth into the land of all things cheddar. :|
:cheers:
MB
Remove carb top & measure angle with an inclinometer.
Hi Midget
Have you heard of A. Graham Bell's Four Stroke Performance Tuning?
It has a bit of info on getting good flow & swirl in the Mini heads (guessing Midgets have same heads)
My old purple cover version eventually fell apart, the reprint has been updated with EFI info.
Jon
Hey Chris, have you gutted that water pump yet?
I have discarded the anti-gravitational accessories from my Bat Tool belt essentials. On December 21, 2012 when the earth's gravitational field goes awry (as the Mayans have predicted :?) I want my fat white posterior glued to the surface of the planet. I have therefore replaced all the tools with squeeze bottles of condiments (mayo & 3 types of mustard) while still leaving room for 3 bottles of microbrew. That is my plan & I'm sticking to it!!!!
Best,
MB
Hey Chris, have you gutted that water pump yet?
Don - A trick I'm not aware of. I've heard of it on older SBC's running dirt tracks. I'm toying with the idea of a Moroso electric drive for the WP, if that's what you're getting at.
Bell's drawings on where to modify a BMC head is somewhat generic and used as an example, where the yellow Tuning A-series (Vizard) book reprints some of the templates from Vizard's earlier blue book (actualy printed a bit larger than in the blue book). Good to have all three books, but I'd stick with the templates in Vizard's yellow book for porting (IMO).
I brought up the Moroso pump drive in the chat and Michael Lefevers shouted out a definate NO!!!!!!!! He said those things barely keep up on the dragstrip let alone for 3-5 miles. I am glad that such experienced folks are here for advise :cheers:
I brought up the Moroso pump drive in the chat and Michael Lefevers shouted out a definate NO!!!!!!!! He said those things barely keep up on the dragstrip let alone for 3-5 miles. I am glad that such experienced folks are here for advise :cheers:
Hey, Trent -
Curious if it would be an issue in my application. One of the points Vizard mentions (seems to always come back to DV) is that after about 2000 RPM, the pump is simply creating more drag, and at 2000 RPM on the tach, the pump is at maximum cooling capacity.
The bonus I see is that I can lose the alternator and the power being sucked up by that, and hang the motor there, which is allowed in GT.
Do you know what kind of engine Mike had problems with using the Moroso setup?
How is crank trigger mounted?? Trick here is not to create a "cascading nightmare" of changes to existing setup. :cheers:
Fordboy
... Remember: top speed is a function of the cube of horsepower available...Umm... that's backwards. "cube root" in place of "cube" would make it less-wrong. Most readers probably knew what you meant to say, though.
Midget,
Block, damper and water pump are std BMC 1275?
Fordboy
Cam manufacturers focus on Chevy/Ford/Dodge and let's face it, they pay more attention to flatheads than BMC's........ :cry:
Midget,
Actually, that is good news. An allen bolt means that the crank is probably not tapped for 5/8-16 BMC, but more likely 5/8-18 UNF or 5/8-11 UNC. Cool, about time something isn't an orphan. Hope I'm right.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Quote of the day: "Success has many fathers, but failure is always an orphan.”
:cheers:
Fordboy
Midget,
Any notion of the Crane Part #'s on the valve springs previously being used? I'd like to be able to look up the spring rate from their catalog. My experience dictates a spring rate required of about 320/350# per inch, perhaps higher once the moment of inertia and "negative" accelerations are known. The problem here is not one of spring rate, but of "packaging" or "fitting" into the space available. A very common problem on small engines.
Best,
Fordboy
902-4009
Specs as per seller -
Outer Spring O.D. 1.135
Outer Spring I.D. .839
Inner Spring I.D. .629
Does Not Have Damper
Seat Pressure At Installed Height 80 lbs @ 1.375
Open Pressure and Height 224 lbs @ .895
Coil Bind .793
Average Spring Rate 300 lbs/in
Clearly BS, if at 1.340, we're only seeing ~ 70 lbs.
Quote902-4009
Specs as per seller -
Outer Spring O.D. 1.135
Outer Spring I.D. .839
Inner Spring I.D. .629
Does Not Have Damper
Seat Pressure At Installed Height 80 lbs @ 1.375
Open Pressure and Height 224 lbs @ .895
Coil Bind .793
Average Spring Rate 300 lbs/in
Clearly BS, if at 1.340, we're only seeing ~ 70 lbs.
Midget,
Probably not so much BS as optimism. But anyway, good engine engineers have to live in the real world, not the optimisty world. I would expect the springs to lose some tension after being in service, and so what is being measured at this point in time is just that: used high performance valve springs. Valve springs are one of the most highly stressed components in a racing engine, and the expectation should be replacement at some service interval PRIOR to failure.... Even shimmed up to 95# seat (height unknown) that still only gives 239# open @ 300#/inch spring rate, and this may not be possible (probably too close to coil bind) AND IT IS CERTAINLY NOT WISE. I don't know about you, but I want to think that I am smarter than to reuse what I'm thinking was a marginal part to begin with. (Although I'm sure Mrs. Fordboy will have something to say about my "smartiness".)
Bottom line is: my experience tells me the listed rate is too low for this application anyway. Consulted with RD spring in CA, and was hopeful something could be found from their motorcycle bits, but alas, their Harley/Honda stuff won't work. :cry:
This is one of THE biggest issues I have encountered in flogging small racing engines: Whippy cams with high acceleration forces and no valve springs available to cope with the valve train forces/stresses. And I just love it when the cam manufacturers say: "Well you could TRY this.... Let us know how it works out." Yeah, thanks a bunch. (read my mind here.) If it appears that it doesn't have an ice cube's chance on a hot "Summerfest" day ON PAPER, why would I take a chance that it "might" work?!? I'm feeling a lot better about my engineering ability, since I stopped blowing up perfectly good racing engines by not doing dumb things to them. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be a waste of money, time, effort and and oh yeah, did I mention money? Sorry about the rant. :x
So the great snipe hunt for the perfect BMC valve spring continues.................. Am hopeful that Kawi's will be the one.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Speedtalk REQUIRES membership to even VIEW chats/blogs. No guest provision to try it.
?????
Fordboy
I can't belive that, maybe to post in advanced tech. Is it the same if you go via speedtalk.com and "racer forum"?
So the great snipe hunt for the perfect BMC valve spring continues.................. Am hopeful that Kawi's will be the one.
QuoteSo the great snipe hunt for the perfect BMC valve spring continues.................. Am hopeful that Kawi's will be the one.
Midget,
I am wondering if the WWW has the equivalent of "Match.com" for racers & racing valve springs?!? Probably unlikely..........
Fordboy
Viewed Metric & Multistandard's Online Catalog: NO listing for BSW 5/8x16tpi only BSW 5/8x11tpi & BSF 5/8x14tpi. At least they were SHCS's equivalent to US grade 8/Metric grade 12.9
Okay, these seem to be heading in the right direction.
Assuming 1.340 installed height gets me ~ 125, .850 = 300 open, and a .750 coil bind. Head should be back in Beerhaven by Thursday – I’ll be able to confirm that height and see how it goes together.
Any notion of the valve length on your cylinder head? Is it the shorter Cooper 'S' length or is it the longer '1275' length?? Kind of like which eye do you want poked out......longer valves help the springs but will require shorter pushrods, etc, etc, the old cascading nightmare bit. Now where was that barrel I was saving to go over Niagara Falls.......
I don't believe I have the S valves - my recollection is that they were within a snail's whisker of the stock Spridget valves.
And Rob, Thanks. Are you going to be able to make the rescheduled Lake Gairdner event?
Assuming 1.340 installed height gets me ~ 125, .850 = 300 open, and a .750 coil bind. Head should be back in Beerhaven by Thursday – I’ll be able to confirm that height and see how it goes together.
Stay on the racer's underground railway, ie, under the radar of the police who dislike 'cheese'.
Hi Midget
If your friend has and indactor with enough travel, you might want to see how much travel is in your springs past open as this will let you know how much you shim the spring and not get too close to coil bind.
Don
Assuming 1.340 installed height gets me ~ 125, .850 = 300 open, and a .750 coil bind. Head should be back in Beerhaven by Thursday – I’ll be able to confirm that height and see how it goes together.
That's a 357#/inch spring rate. Presuming that all the spring pressure numbers are correct & 1.450" is correct, then:
@ 1.45" installed height that would give approx. 85#'s seat pressure.
@ 0.96" open height that would give approx. 260#'s open pressure.
Come dyno day, we'll see if indeed I might have too much lift.
That's a lot of cam for a small engine, I ran a megadyne 310 in a 1293; below 4K it ran like 3 leads were unplugged and came on like a switch. It revved plenty, but I'm pretty sure a milder cam would have made more power. You might find you make more power with standard ratio rockers? Anyway, good luck with it all, I'm looking forward to seeing the results :)
Andy
We share common doubts, and it's a thoughtful critique. I questioned it, too, and it wasn't my first choice - the SPVP3-BK was. My nature is to go conservative, and for precisely the reasons you stated - crummy idle, peaky output. And I'm the first to admit that I'm in uncharted territory. While the factory supported the 970 in the Mini for a couple of years, and produced a few Formula Junior engines to approximately this spec, they built less than 1000 970's, and there is virtually zero information on setting them up compared to the long stroke A-blocks.
But Dave Anton at APT has built a few 970's, and after spelling out the objectives, the consensus was the SPVP5-BK was the best bet.
Here are the driving forces in my decision making -
The goal is 123 on the salt. I'm running 23" tires and 4.22 gears - hardly a traditional LSR setup, but that puts me wanting peak power at ~7500 and 8000 RPM.
The valve sizes are virtually ideal for this combination, and I didn't have to offset the exhaust valves to do it.
I'll be running standard ratios in the transmission, so to fall back on the power band, I'll need to be able to rev past peak in 3rd. The billet crank, Saenz rods and J&E pistons should be up to the task - this cam should go there.
If I were doing ANY OTHER type of racing, this combination wouldn't receive a second thought. Part of the trouble I've had sussing out information is that when people talk Sprites/Midgets/Minis, they're almost always talking road racing, hill climbing or rally - poked and stroked up to 1500 cc's - and with good reason - that's where the racing history and engineering of this engine has been grounded for better than 50 years.
With this application, my only concern is that the power band needs to occur on the east end of the tach, and that it can live there for a few minutes.
The die is cast, and I'll keep you posted!
Cheers, Mate! :cheers:
That's a lot of cam for a small engine, I ran a megadyne 310 in a 1293; below 4K it ran like 3 leads were unplugged and came on like a switch. It revved plenty, but I'm pretty sure a milder cam would have made more power. You might find you make more power with standard ratio rockers? Anyway, good luck with it all, I'm looking forward to seeing the results :)
Andy
We share common doubts, and it's a thoughtful critique. I questioned it, too, and it wasn't my first choice - the SPVP3-BK was. My nature is to go conservative, and for precisely the reasons you stated - crummy idle, peaky output. And I'm the first to admit that I'm in uncharted territory.
The cam recommended by Anton is the one in the engine right now, with the objective being max hp, and midrange and idle be damned. What we'll have with this rocker ratio test is either a confirmation of the choice, or a direction to travel, although not necessarily a roadmap.
Chris,
I am following this with great interest. Don't really have any application, perhaps it's the discussion about the build and all the details to make it work. Looking forward to the dyno session. Good luck!
Geo
"The Marina has been described as one of the worst cars of all time, although it was one of the most popular cars in Britain throughout its production life, and compared to many of its competitors, such as the Lada 1300 range, however, a fair buy both new and secondhand."
- Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyland_Marina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyland_Marina)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Austin_Marina_Truck_1275cc_Reg_March_1975.JPG/800px-Austin_Marina_Truck_1275cc_Reg_March_1975.JPG)
Mike
Midget,
In order to keep me interested, I am thinking the next project needs to be along the lines of a Humber "Super Snipe". (Sorry, no picture available.) Not just a regular Humber "Snipe" mind you, has to be a "Super". And the "Super" engine would have to be someting like a Cosworth Ford 1.0L 4 valve Lucas injected 10,000rpm "screamer" maybe with blow-through turbo. Not sure what class that car would be, however, am pretty sure how the builders of said project might be "classified". Sure it would be a creative description............................. :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Chris, been following this invigorated thread as well, remember I have a '63 spitfire waiting to see speed in the future.Seems like Mr. Fordboy got the info to spread.
A Cosworth belly tank, perhaps?
Start with a Ralt chassis . . .
QuoteA Cosworth belly tank, perhaps?
Start with a Ralt chassis . . .
Where do I sign up?? Even willing to travel to Utah.........
F/B
Ask your mortgage broker where to sign . . .
Hey, Geo, where were you when we were arguing Whitworth a few weeks back?Well, I was going to chime in when getting caught up with the thread and Rob started the "not quite the same but it threads in" and along comes wobblywalrus, reply 1035, with the final stake. Why was I late, you don't ask, I am working on the kitchen replacement. Leave it up the the bike guys to keep the car guys on the straight and narrow. You do have the proper Whitworth bolt?
Capt thundarr,Have both in "baskets" for now. gotta get Amy's Camaro to Ohio this year. Probably start on the Spit next year for my trips down the mile. We will look for the salt a little later.QuoteChris, been following this invigorated thread as well, remember I have a '63 spitfire waiting to see speed in the future.Seems like Mr. Fordboy got the info to spread.
Is that Spitfire an 1147 or the 1500? Lots of experience with G-prod 1147's
Best,
F/B
FordBoy:
Here's an amusing little story about a big name magazine trying to take the record set by an unlikely Ford.
I've always liked it, because Jack Dolan is one of my heroes. The kicker for you, perhaps, is the last three paragraphs.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/not-so-fast-there-bud (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/not-so-fast-there-bud)
Jack's comment some years after the article:
The 83 "Far and Wider" article generated quite a bit of interest.
They missed more than a few things , including the fact that between El Mirage and Bonneville.
We set 21 class records with 2 EXP/LN7 based cars and were sandbagging about 10%.
I was offered an S-2000 by Honda but didn't need to go to work for them and had faster cars already.
" Life is tough enough, even without wasting it."
Mike
Capt thundarr,Have both in "baskets" for now. gotta get Amy's Camaro to Ohio this year. Probably start on the Spit next year for my trips down the mile. We will look for the salt a little later.QuoteChris, been following this invigorated thread as well, remember I have a '63 spitfire waiting to see speed in the future.Seems like Mr. Fordboy got the info to spread.
Is that Spitfire an 1147 or the 1500? Lots of experience with G-prod 1147's
Best,
F/B
Frank.
Midget,
In order to keep me interested, I am thinking the next project needs to be along the lines of a Humber "Super Snipe". (Sorry, no picture available.) Not just a regular Humber "Snipe" mind you, has to be a "Super". And the "Super" engine would have to be someting like a Cosworth Ford 1.0L 4 valve Lucas injected 10,000rpm "screamer" maybe with blow-through turbo. Not sure what class that car would be, however, am pretty sure how the builders of said project might be "classified". Sure it would be a creative description............................. :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Here we go,
specially for Fb and MM
Ford Sierra P100 pickup (same basic body as your Merkur ?)
Drop the Cosworth 2 litre lump in and get a bigger turbo, then 500 HP easy :-D
Midget,
Just curious, what type of spark plug wires are you using?
F/B
MSD 8 mm Street Fires - 500 ohms/foot. Needed a supression cable for wasted spark.
Chris, sorry I was side tracked and missed this:The best birthday gift would be seeing that antique of yours push past 500 hp.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! :cheers:
QuoteCome dyno day, we'll see if indeed I might have too much lift.
Midget, et all,
I know this is hard to visualize without a graph or chart, but please read along and I can answer anyone's specific question in a later post. In a phrase, "It is more complicated than that." And what I mean by that is, that changes in the rocker ratio change more than just the lift curve. Although 'overlifting' valves is related, the other change is to the EFFECTIVE duration of valve timing events. Because higher ratio rocker arms increase the valve displacement at EVERY POINT on the valve displacement curve, they also have the NET effect of increasing the EFFECTIVE duration of ANY cam used. Now we could argue all day about what net valve lift value constitues "EFFECTIVE" camshaft duration, but I'm going to get all passive/aggresive on you guys by saying: "The only valve event I care about on this engine @ this time is: 'EFFECTIVE' inlet valve closing". And I reserve the right to change my opinion, at any time, without notice.
IF, substituting a lower ratio rocker arm assembly produces more torque at a given rpm, (& therefore more hp) the inference is that the valve events are too "long", ie, too much duration,
OR, the inlet valve 'effective' closing point is too late for the engine's combination of build geometry & gasflow,
OR, the engine does not have enough compression ratio to take advantage of 'long' duration valve events,
OR, a combination of the above,
AND/OR, other build geometry/gasflow factors I did not include, etc, etc, etc.
Also a factor here is that the smaller the displacement of an engine's cylinders (and this is different from TOTAL engine displacement) the more 'sensitive' it is to 'effective' valve timing events.
The risk of this test is that peak hp MAY be compromised by the gasflow loss at net total valve lift at, and around, full open intake/exhaust valve events. However, an increase in peak torque, even coupled with a loss of peak hp, (subject to analysis) would typically indicate the engine needs 'less' cam duration and/or more compression ratio. These types of tests are part of the engineering/tuning process. I am expecting to see a rise in peak torque AND, a slight loss in peak hp, and analysis of the data generated will indicate what other changes (if any) should be made. I am particularly interested in seeing what sort of BMEP this engine produces, regardless of rocker ratio. See how simple that was........
Kind of like a chess game, lots of pieces, lots of moves, net result: It's complicated. Lots of guys smarter than I am spend endless amounts of time debating about this stuff. As for me I'm simple, all I care about is: net results.
:cheers:
Fordboy
QuoteCome dyno day, we'll see if indeed I might have too much lift.
I'm really pleased to see you showing an interest in this build, I'm sure that this engine is going to be a good step better for it.
I stopped playing with A series engines before I got into the habit of plotting every cam that came my way, so can't help with your valve accelerations, but I suspect it'll be the maximum you can get from the follower diameter. I can't disagree with your comments about inlet valve closing time (I don't have anything like your knowledge on this), but I was coming at the 1.25 rockers from a different direction, that of reducing overlap (measure that how you prefer). To me the magic happens during overlap, and equally it's the phase where things go wrong if you don't have the acoustics right. It's unlikely that this engine will have the right lengths and diameters without a lot of dyno time, so mine was a suggestion that less may be more. I'm a simple soul, and like to keep my theories simple :|
With regard to optimising inlet valve closing time and compression ratio; will that still be correct in the ~85% atmosphere at 4000ft? I have no experience of this as 400ft is high around here, but I suspect that an engine that's fussy in this respect will struggle at Bonneville. I throw this out there as I'm interested in the answer.
go fast
Andy
We set 21 class records with 2 EXP/LN7 based cars and were sandbagging about 10%.
Courtesy of a fellow member who is in contact with David Vizard -
Regarding my build -
"There are some compounded problems with this engine spec. Firstly the cams LCA is too tight at 104. It needs to be at about 110 to 111. Also the duration is such that it will exaggerate the cylinder robbing from outer cylinders to inner ones so duration needs to be cut by about 10-12 degrees. Third the CR is way too low at 11/1 for this combo. To make the top end for outright speed we need to have about 14/1. This will be much more doable if the LCA is spread and the duration reduced. Also read what I say about valve cutouts in the big yellow book. The best cutouts are also the easiest to do so don't scare yourself off doing this to achieve that. MUST HAVE CR!
DV"
I'm trying to find a cam with a Lobe Center Angle that wide that isn't intended for a Morris Minor Panel Van with an automatic. Seems awfully wide - the Leyland street grinds are all at 107.5, their race stuff tightens up to 102.5. Mine, being a scatter pattern, is 105.5 for pistons 1 and 4, and 102.5 for pistons 2 and 3.
I guess I need to find out if this is even an option, short of a custom grind. I'll be out in the woods with my flashlight . . .
FB - when I get those numbers, I'll forward them to you for modeling.
Andy - good hearing from you again. It's getting interesting over here.
"Think first, THEN the beer."
Based on the looks of the tops of the pistons there is some indication that there is some uneven distribution from the intake. This can be cam, intake or header design, or a combination of more than one. A picture of the head and combustion chamber burn pattern would also give some additional indications.
Also need to know clutch release finger ht., from block face to where t/o brg. contacts fingers.
I've been searching like mad for the input I based my reply on, but starting to suspect I remembered wrong name alias on that forum, sorry. However hydrolastic do race BMC's but isn't the man I was thinking of. I'll get back when I find it.
... I/GT was also out of North Carolina - an Abarth. The record is 20 years old, and it's stiff for a 1 litre production bodied car.
I have a picture of it on my dart board. :wink:
MM:
"...and the correspondence with Vizard..."
Where is David Vizard these days?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Chris:
Here's what you need for a support vehicle, at a nearby tow-yard's auction this morning (probably a consignment):
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Club/Miscellaneous/1972MorrisMinorpanel.jpg)
1972 they say.
Mike
Chris:
Here's what you need for a support vehicle, at a nearby tow-yard's auction this morning (probably a consignment):
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Club/Miscellaneous/1972MorrisMinorpanel.jpg)
1972 they say.
Mike
Ooooh! Complete with pedestrian control stanchions! :-D
Mike, I'm beginning to think you know me better than my wife.
Actually, take one of those, box the frame, go with MGB-GT V8 brakes up front and a Rover V8 with a 5 speed, and I'd use it for a tow vehicle!
Problem is this - 4 cars, 3 garage spaces, and Mrs. Midget is already whining about the trailer in the back yard.
And bringing up her shoe closet is not an effective defense.
The smart thing to do with those is transplant a Corolla underneath them....a friend had one for a bit. The thing is though it no longer sounded like, handled like, or stopped like an English car...it lost a whole lot of other sort of "personality" traits too ..it had power, it didn't leak oil and it lost all of those great times standing beside it on some stretch of road wondering what was wrong with it.........it just wasn't the same, oh yeah and it got good fuel economy too.
The smart thing to do with those is transplant a Corolla underneath them....a friend had one for a bit. The thing is though it no longer sounded like, handled like, or stopped like an English car...it lost a whole lot of other sort of "personality" traits too ..it had power, it didn't leak oil and it lost all of those great times standing beside it on some stretch of road wondering what was wrong with it.........it just wasn't the same, oh yeah and it got good fuel economy too.
why would you want a car that went like a corolla?
G
Rover ? are you currently dripping molten wax on your bare skin , burning yourself with a lit cigarette or some other masochist rite?
Err that was no Mini!Graham,
ADO16 Austin 1100!
In fact an estate (wagon)
Sorry guys :oops:
Clip is funny though! :-D
Those minions of Joseph Lucas are UNSTOPPABLE..!!....
This is a direct quote of the bumper sticker which cost "Group 44" their Lucas sponsorship dollars, circa 1980. The bumper sticker was displayed on the rear of all of their team cars at the SCCA Runoffs @ Road Atlanta. It read:
Question, "Why do the British drink warm beer?" Answer, "Because they have Lucas refrigerators!"
True story, I was there with the outraged Lucas Sales reps...............
:cheers:
Fordboy
As for Autolite, I recall being stranded several times [once in a blizzard] in a Ford pickup untill I learned to carry a spare ignition module.
My wife put a moritorium on Fords that still stands 30 years later.
Don
why would you want a car that went like a corolla?
G
Yeah, Britannia may have ruled the ocean, but they never built a car that would drive through a puddle without conking out.
I doubt a Corolla powertrain would pull a trailer through Wyoming.
And, of course, the correct response to that statement is, "What makes you think a Rover would get you past Iowa?"Rover ? are you currently dripping molten wax on your bare skin , burning yourself with a lit cigarette or some other masochist rite?
Based on an early 1960's GM design - and if I wanted to start getting sarcastic, I could draw parallels . . .
But I'm in too good of a mood - Nick Lowe was OUTSTANDING this evening. :-P
Chris,
Not wanting to re-read your build log I am just going to assume you have not talked to Dema Elgin regarding your cam shaft needs. Dema is a very sharp cam guy and has lots of experience with BMC motors. If you don't happen to have his number I can dig around and find it.
Rex
You guys be carefull, or you're gonna mess around and make BIG HP numbers! :cheers:
MM, was thinking of you as I Drank a Game On from Wisco last night. Little brother and I attended a beer tasting with some of the most amazing cured meats and cheeses. I have to say that domestic kicked butt on all the other high falootin darks and stouts.
Does this car make my as$ look fat?
Wow Chris that is as limp as my.... never mind. I've never seen one that loose with no more time on the motor than yours has. Hows the oiling to the chain?
Today, boys and girls, we learn another valuable lesson about running a loose valve train.
1&2
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4625.jpg)
Which leads to . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4629.jpg)
Sure looks like chilled iron to me. Can’t wait to see the tappets.
I haven’t the guts to pull the caps tonight.
Oh CRAP, :- as soon as I saw the blue color and the scoring in the first pics I knew there will be no investment recovery for that particular peice. Really feel your pain, :cry: hope the crank made out okay!
Midget,
It's probably just the darkness before the dawn.
MM
Is there any chance you were bottoming out the valve spring retainers on the guides. That could cause excessive pressure and could scuff the cam. Any relationship between the hammered valve seals and the scuffed lobes?
FWIW Just some questions that came to mind. Good luck on your quest.
Ron
I know this doesn't help much, BUT, it is ALWAYS better for you to disassemble your engine, than for your engine to "disassemble" itself.
Some quick thoughts on your disassembly photos:
1 Steel cam + steel thrust plate = non-compatibility. Probably need a bronze or silicon aluminum bronze thrust plate to bear against
the steel cam thrust face. How much end play did the cam have on build-up? (should be .003"/.005") These types of material
compatibility problems are common when "upgrading" parts. Guys put titanium valves in cast iron guides & then wonder why the
valves seize in the guides, regardless of clearance. Does APT have a non-steel cam thrust plate? Now you know how steel friction
welding works.
Does paying attention to all the little details matter? I dunno, but I think you should ask the guy who finishes second.....
1 Steel cam + steel thrust plate = non-compatibility. Probably need a bronze or silicon aluminum bronze thrust plate to bear against
the steel cam thrust face. How much end play did the cam have on build-up? (should be .003"/.005") These types of material
compatibility problems are common when "upgrading" parts. Guys put titanium valves in cast iron guides & then wonder why the
valves seize in the guides, regardless of clearance. Does APT have a non-steel cam thrust plate? Now you know how steel friction
welding works.
... What would you say if I said I'm running a crank trigger and no distributor?...I would have to ask: how are the crank-triggered sparks distributed to the individual sparkplugs?
Because of all the differences between BMC oil pump drive types, I have had problems when changing from one drive type/cam style to another. The problem was the oil pump drive shaft "bottomed" in the cam, and forced the cam forward and into the thrust plate.
. . . be happy your chosen powerplant is not a V-12 RR Merlyn Aero......
. . . be happy your chosen powerplant is not a V-12 RR Merlyn Aero......
That would put me in AA/GMS, AA/FMS, AA/BGMS or AA/BLMS, depending on which fuel I'd run, and if I wanted to supercharge it.
I've got enough on my plate without trying to determine where to sit . . . :|
:cheers:
Ummm, ahhh, Rolls Royce Merlyn Aero is the 1600 cubic inch, 1600 HP, centrifically supercharged (with 2 supercharger speeds no less) powerplant for the Supermarine Spitfire, P51 Mustang and other WWII warbirds as well. Possibly, a bit too large for the Midget.................... :?
Captain Nemo, you need to stop pumping out your basement and read that rule book I left you. :wink:
Okay, so that narrows it down to AA/BGMS ot AA/BLMS.
Might take a little bit of tinsmithing - it's been done -
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,7226.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,7295.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,10112.0.html
That would be a great BIG orphan engine!
Judging by the number of "orphan" powerplants on this site, it appears that utilizing an "orphan" powerplant is a huge part of the "fun" factor for LSR racers. Or perhaps LSR racers are the untapped reserve of non-conformists with an additional masochistic disorder?
I believe Sammy Sosa (the great Chicago Cub psychologist) named this condition "optimisty".
Midget,
Not trying to be your tor'mentor'..... I prefer to think of myself as: Fordboy, Master of the Obvious................. :evil:
:cheers:
Fordy Nemo
Midget,
Not trying to be your tor'mentor'..... I prefer to think of myself as: Fordboy, Master of the Obvious................. :evil:
:cheers:
Fordy Nemo
Sounding like : Fordboy, Vizard of the BMC!! :-D Lost this chevy boy about 2 pages back. :?
Always nice to have a plan, isn't it? :cheers:
Midget,
Still on the road. At the site in Missouri that has the most Tourist visits annually. Guess where! Jeopardy will conclude on my return to civilization.............
:cheers:
F/B
I hear Monaco is beautiful this time of year. :-D
If your choice of cam manufacturer can not (or will not) provide this information to you, the engine builder, you need a different cam grinder who will work with you.
Fordboy, again, I am in your debt.
Give me a call when you need that hot tub moved, but I will insist upon draining it first.
Oh, wait a minute - this is the self-draining hot tub, isn't it? :-D
Man , when his revisitation of the engine buid started I was sitting up all alert, now my eyes are glazing a little and I'm starting to fidget.........and the end result is a kind of anxiety, specifically option anxiety.
You are in great hands there, but I can see the wear and tear that it can all have......
when you break the record It will all be worth it. And you will.
The next step is to determine what actual "net valve displacement" (valve lift @ crank position) will fit. If your choice of cam grinder can not (or will not) provide you with "net valve displacement", the cam "lobe displacement" would be a more math intensive second choice. The formula for your little jewel is: cam lobe displacement * effective rocker ratio - valve lash = net valve displacement @ a certain crank position. Repeat for other crank positions as required, to calculate minimum valve to piston clearance for both valves.
The minimum information required is: inlet lobe lift @ 10/12/14 degrees ATDC at the specified LCA for cyl's 1/4, and....
inlet lobe lift @ 10/12/14 degrees ATDC at the scattered LCA for cyl's 2/3, and....
ex. lobe lift @ 10/12/14 degrees BTDC at the specified LCA.
Some of the above can be calculated, IF, the cam mfg. shares info about whether it is a single pattern cam. If it is a dual or multi pattern cam, then all of the above is required to check fitment.
I gotta give you props for riding this out Chris!
My head hurts just reading it! :-D
Taking this all in over a pint of Ole Speckled Hen.
One quick thought - and this comes back to the old "it's all about compromises" quote.
You and I both know there have been very strong BMC engines that never had a scatter pattern cam, and dozens of very competitive grinds are available. I've been poking through Dema's catalog and I'm seeing a couple of grinds that could be put on an appropriate LCA and look likely to work.
As you pointed out, the 3 degree spread is what APT and Kent have used on the 2&3 (or at least ADVERTISED as such). Given the tight tolerances we're chasing, might it be to our advantage to adjust the center lobes 1 1/2 degrees to maintain a better bit of clearance and still take a lesser advantage of the lower cylinder robbing characteristics that the SP cam provides?
Yeah, I know, now we're talking the black art of cam design, but at this point, in for a dime, in for a dollar.
Courtesy of a fellow member who is in contact with David Vizard -
Regarding my build -
"There are some compounded problems with this engine spec. Firstly the cams LCA is too tight at 104. It needs to be at about 110 to 111. Also the duration is such that it will exaggerate the cylinder robbing from outer cylinders to inner ones so duration needs to be cut by about 10-12 degrees. Third the CR is way too low at 11/1 for this combo. To make the top end for outright speed we need to have about 14/1. This will be much more doable if the LCA is spread and the duration reduced. Also read what I say about valve cutouts in the big yellow book. The best cutouts are also the easiest to do so don't scare yourself off doing this to achieve that. MUST HAVE CR!
DV"
My question for today is:
There was discussion about excessive force, strain, wear by opening the valve too far. Is there a formula to determine how much opening would be needed to fill the chamber. I know a running engine is different than a pencil and paper computation. Is there a close enough guess and then could the lift maximum be determined. Why go beyond what is needed and increase the possibility of breakage? For this 999 cc engine is opening the valve as far as possible not needed as it is for the 1310 cc.
Geo
For anybody out there who is interested, this is why simulations can be extremely helpful in making choices about engine build specs. The limiting factor is that you need to know what you are doing with the numbers, as opposed to plugging numbers in to a program until it spits out a result you like.4 Guys guess all the time, about all kinds of build specs. If you are knowledgeable & experienced, this can work out OK. BUT, if you
:cheers:
Fordboy
OK, time for a cold one. Hope this helps.
better than 22 MPH
QuoteOK, time for a cold one. Hope this helps.
Yes! Thank you very much Capt. Nemo! :cheers:
I have thoroughly enjoyed the information and am learning something about all engines not just BMC.Quotebetter than 22 MPH
Stan, I think we can add at least a hundred to the 22 when Chris finishes this engine!
Geo
How about the inside of the steering rack?
QuoteHow about the inside of the steering rack?
That's how Jaguar did it on the '92 XJS-R. :-D
We should talk more. :cheers:
Geo
QuoteHow about the inside of the steering rack?
That's how Jaguar did it on the '92 XJS-R. :-D
We should talk more. :cheers:
Geo
Oh, dear - If I'm beginning to think like a Jaguar engineer, maybe I should reconsider my fix . . .
Yes, talk more, and drink more, too! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Here's what I went with -
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=34309
Just didn't much feel like disassembling the front end this year.
I believe I have some cheesium stock here somewhere here
and of course, some ultra light weight, Swiss cheesium.
G :-D
Oh, dear - If I'm beginning to think like a Jaguar engineer, maybe I should reconsider my fix . . .
Oh, dear - If I'm beginning to think like a Jaguar engineer, maybe I should reconsider my fix . . .
Were you waiting for me to say something?
MM;
Check to see that your crank grinder chamfered the oil holes in the crank and that they are 'fingernail smooth". Any burrs left there will score your bearings.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
... the V-8 Hayabusa powered Super 7...
Midget come to the Pacific Northwest.
No sunburns here but the chance of drowning while waiting for the bus is extremely high.
Hypothermia recovery is covered by MediCare in Washington State in all months but August.
FREUD
I've seen that Speedwell many times. Did you happen to notice that although it is a custom bodied Sprite chassis, it has a Fiat engine?
Did you checkout the Lagonda? It's like one of 150 and maybe about 50 that didn't go to some dictator or oil sheik. They cost like $150,000 in the '80s. Gets about 6 miles to the gallon. But got Aston Martin through hard times.
.
Bring leaky, British sports cars with lights that fail regularly to an environment where it's always wet and remains dark an extra hour every day because the sun doesn't crest the mountains?
.
Bring leaky, British sports cars with lights that fail regularly to an environment where it's always wet and remains dark an extra hour every day because the sun doesn't crest the mountains?
Are we talking about England? the home of the convertible?
G
MM:
Looking good. I want you to get your money's worth out of the tach. That tach has got three ECTA records before it made its way to you. I am hoping that is good karma for the MM. I love your dedication to the cause.
Bill
I'll just leave this here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=daVDrGsaDME
I'll just leave this here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=daVDrGsaDME
That's cool; one of my first engine related memories is my Dad rebuilding a Cooper S engine and I was "helping" him.
He put it in a Moke for getting around on a station he owned near Broken Hill, it had a 2nd radiator out the front as the normal east/west one would chock up with grass-seeds and the Weber was ducted into the cabin area.
Not many bulls got away from him.
Sorry for the highjack.
jon
On that video I'd like to see the ratio of shots that were used on the tear-down versus the build, I didn't notice it go backwards at all on the build....and it started first time?????The whole stop-action animation thing has always fascinated me. What I found intriguing about that Triumph tear-down and reassembly is that he HAD to have story boarded the entire production. The camera stayed in one place, as did the block for each of those sequences. That took incredible mechanical patience and artistic acumen. The more I view it, the more amazed I am about what had to remain consistent behind the scenes to pull it together so artistically.
there's trickery in them cameras.
Hey, Midget- you'll probably be amused that until today I thought the first MG Midget was in the sixties. But I just discovered that it was in the twenties! 1928(?) M-type Midget. Of course you're old enough to recall their introduction, right? :roll:
Still have to finish this one, but lately I've been toying with the idea of a lakester. Something different. A MIG drop tank with a ZIL limo motor.
Last picture in this montage shows unfinished blocks and bellhousings in Moscow.
http://englishrussia.com/2011/10/20/places-that-are-slowly-being-forgotten/
The tanks are available in Poland.
A Comrod, anybody?
Still have to finish this one, but lately I've been toying with the idea of a lakester. Something different. A MIG drop tank with a ZIL limo motor.
Last picture in this montage shows unfinished blocks and bellhousings in Moscow.
http://englishrussia.com/2011/10/20/places-that-are-slowly-being-forgotten/
The tanks are available in Poland.
A Comrod, anybody?
Midget,
All hazardous waste free & non-radioactive I'm sure. Are you willing to supply all the Wotka I can consume??
:cheers:
Fordboy
CAUTION -- CAUTION -- CAUTION
Be care of how you speak of the Mayor of Impound. If, after all the years, you should appear before him, you don't want to be on his bad side. He is always fair -- and just -- but you should pray that he is fairly just with you.
Or, as I have learned by experience: Don't Plymouth the cook off.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
So will this potential flow support enough power to set a record?
So will this potential flow support enough power to set a record?
A fair question, Don. SCCA Midgets routinely run 120+, but they have no windshields and about 30% more displacement. But they usually have a birdcage hanging up in the breeze, more rolling resistance and have big fender flares sticking out. My aero isn't great, but the frontal area is small. Compared to an F/Prod with flares and an exposed cage, they're probably about the same. On the other hand, this engine will be peaky, and I'll have a lot more room to give it the go.
I did read a road test that showed that the stock 1275 Sprite was faster with the top up than down. Hap down at Acme thinks it should go, and Dema seems to think it's realistic. As for me, I've laid my money down on this combination.
For me, the fun is in the finding out.
:cheers:
I would also like to see exhaust flow a higher % of intake flow, say more around 80% average, but this is no doubt the result of the very large inlet valve and the smallish exhaust valve.
I would also like to see exhaust flow a higher % of intake flow, say more around 80% average, but this is no doubt the result of the very large inlet valve and the smallish exhaust valve.
To: Professor Fordboy – Adjunct professor of A-block studies, University of Abingdon, Great Lakes Campus
Both you and Dr. Dema have expressed exhaust flow as a ratio with regard to intake flow. We've determined that the intake flow on this head is more than generous to the needs of the engine. Provided we have correct timing events on the exhaust side, will the exhaust flow, in actual flow numbers, not as a percentage of intake, meet the demands of the engine?
Are the two inextricably linked, or is it simply a function of how big a valve or port a head can accommodate?
BMC Block Cleaning:
Removing the spool is easier said than done, because of the press fit into the block. The method I use to remove the spool is to:
A Tap the spool 3/8 UNC. You only need to tap 3/4 threads deep.
B Firmly install a 3/8 UNC bolt into the threads you just cut.
C Grasp bolt with a slide hammer and gently tap out spool.
Grasp bolt with a slide hammer and gently tap out spool.
With/without flared fenders is easier: Less frontal area is better because it's less. Just figure how much less the area percentage is and you have your potential improvement. Think back to the Smokey Yunick 7/8 scale Nascar Chevelle (?). Nascar outlawed it @ the first outing, NOT because it was SLOW.......
In those days they measured everything with a tape measure.
The last time I talked to Smokey ( about 13 years ago ) I told that I was doing Bonneville things. He said " The thing I like about Bonneville is You build your sheetbox and I'll build mine and we will see which one of the somebitchs goes the fastest. If your car is faster I just did not work hard enough."
If you knew Smokey, that is the way he felt about racing.
Doug in Big Ditch
In those days they measured everything with a tape measure.
The last time I talked to Smokey ( about 13 years ago ) I told that I was doing Bonneville things. He said " The thing I like about Bonneville is You build your sheetbox and I'll build mine and we will see which one of the somebitchs goes the fastest. If your car is faster I just did not work hard enough."
If you knew Smokey, that is the way he felt about racing.
Doug in Big Ditch
Smokey on book tape is a great listen while driving to Bonneville!
I agree Tman, a great way to pass time. He knew his way around the rules.
Smokey on book tape is a great listen while driving to Bonneville!
Geeeze Chris,
I've got all three I think but it's a long haul and isn't 110V. :| Not 100% sure on the cable.
All three items are on Ebay though.
Cheers,
Rob
Geeeze Chris,
I've got all three I think but it's a long haul and isn't 110V. :| Not 100% sure on the cable.
All three items are on Ebay though.
Cheers,
Rob
BTW- How are you going to get out of the car once you stuff yourself in that thing? An ejection air bag? :roll:
The head came back today after a .060 haircut. The head skim was a bit harrowing. When you slice cheese this thin, you sometimes discover Swiss cheese –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4747.jpg)
It’s just the water jacket on the face, which both Mel and Fordboy agree should not be an issue. A dab of HT silicone against the face and against the gasket should keep it from leaking, but this is an indication of just how extreme this combination is being stretched. Part of the issue is the lack of cylinder capacity with respect to chamber capacity. In order to get a CR that will produce power, the chamber needs to be as small as possible, so pushing things to the limit – and in this case, a tad beyond - is what needed to be done.
I’ll be scrubbing up the castings this evening, and next week, I’ll meet up with Fordboy, he'll cc the chambers and we’ll see what out final CR is going to clock in at.
When I was running SCCA H & G prod., 950/1100, you would expect to get into the oil passage to the rockers when milling,,grind it out, lay in a tube, braze it up,,,good to go,,, :-)
When I was running SCCA H & G prod., 950/1100, you would expect to get into the oil passage to the rockers when milling,,grind it out, lay in a tube, braze it up,,,good to go,,, :-)
Oh and I'd have no idea how to get in there to machine / relieve! :?
I'll keep thinking....
"I think of it as an elegant solution to a problem that should never have existed."
That, right there, is I think part of the Pommy car mentality that traps you guys, or at least causes you to fall in love...... the million bolts, the weird measurements, the abject refusal to copy better ideas...... It leaves us who mess with the utilitarian, the commonplace, at a loss and those (you)who'd never stoop to those depths grinning to themselves......
On another note andnot to hijack your thread, is plastigauge a reliable medium for a race engine?
I have been warned off useing it by a couple of local engine builders who insist that measuring the bearings installed in the torqued up rod/main cap and then doing the same with the crank journal followed by some math is th eonly reliable method?
Cheers,
Rob
Gat a call from Dema - the cam is done.
WOOT WOOT! :cheers:
Fordboy, Graham,
Okay, putting the block back to rights. I installed the center oil restrictor on the 2nd main with no difficulty, but the bypass spool has given me pause for thought.
It’s in, it’s bottomed against the machined ridge in the bore that leads to the pressure relief valve, but I don’t know if it’s supposed to be centered in the bore between the long gallery and the rear main. It’s clearly not, and I’m not sure if this is the way it’s supposed to be, or if the block was improperly machined at the factory.
Using the bore scope and a .017 guitar string, looking up through the rear oil passage from the rear main bearing, note that the string cannot pass on the left side of the spindle –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DIGI0004.jpg)
Yet it passes through on the right side . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DIGI0005.jpg)
The ultimate question is, is there sufficient flow?
Oh and I'd have no idea how to get in there to machine / relieve! :?
I'll keep thinking....
I'll find out if it's a problem, first. No sense in burning out the thinking cap just yet. No doubt, it will be needed later.
"I think of it as an elegant solution to a problem that should never have existed."
That, right there, is I think part of the Pommy car mentality that traps you guys, or at least causes you to fall in love...... the million bolts, the weird measurements, the abject refusal to copy better ideas...... It leaves us who mess with the utilitarian, the commonplace, at a loss and those (you)who'd never stoop to those depths grinning to themselves......
It's a love one has that is akin to owning faithful 3 legged dog rescued from the pound, except you can't train a BMC engine to leak only on newspapers.
Rob, thanks for the link - it addresses the schematic, but unfortunately, not the blueprint.
Okay, for documentation purposes.
And by the way, these build diaries are a great way to catalog you measurements. If you forget where you put your notes, you just log on, pull up the diary and use the search function.
As per Fordboy’s request – Crank straightness –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4755.jpg)
+.000 -.000 360 degrees. Straight enough.
Bearing Crush – and I’m going to repeat this one this week after swapping a few things around, because it concerns me.
I lubed the studs, torqued down the caps and unscrewed one side, and checked the gap on the front and back of the cap with feeler gauges:
Front Back
Front cap .004 .003
Middle cap .004 .004
Rear cap .004 .002
Middle cap seems fine - .004 is what is required, but perhaps the front and rear caps have a taper? Again, I hope this will go away by swapping a few bearings around. That’s Monday’s work.
These numbers will likely change if I do swap the main bearings around, but Plastigauge on the mains got me:
Front .003
Middle .002
Rear .003
Factory specs are .0010 - .0027, and I did take the crank in for a polish earlier this year.
So I’ll see what some futzing around might achieve. I’m really rather disinclined to drag it back to the shop and go through the entire clean-up process again - but I will if I have to.
He also was the first 4 cylinder to win the V-8 Challenge Trophy.
We got to do McBobs together sometime.
While I have absolutely no desire to ever get involved with another BMC engine ever again I'm finding this build both interesting and entertaining. Keep up the great work guys and the best of luck when it hits the track again. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
You know, I said the very same thing about having kids and I've built several cars from nothing to date! :-D
Here's my thought - With help, if I can eventually make this one go, it will make anything else I ever do appear easy.
P.S. Although Milwaukee does not appear to be the center of the universe, it may very well be the 'Beerhaven' you suggest..........
Chris,
I'm very impressed with your fanatical attention to detail on this rebuild, for hard work and endurance I really do wish you the very best of outcomes! :-D :cheers:
Keep up the great work, I'm learning a lot here, many thanks!
Graham :-D
Better, Doc! I guess he's using a Lucas flash. :mrgreen:
Mike
"But above everything else, here is what is going to happen. I will build the fastest damned stock bodied, naturally aspirated, five-port, one liter Midget ever to hit the salt."
"Period."
FTW!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I'm enjoying watching your fabrications; but I'll wind up pestering you with questions!
> Were you able to reconfigure the spring "cold", or did you anneal and then re-temper it?
> Are the nominal design details (layout, dimensions, etc.) taken from a known-workable example, or do you attempt to engineer it all yourself? If it were me, and I had no proven precedent, I'd need to investigate the durability of a 1/4-28 stud (not much over .200" minor diameter, with many stress risers). But then I'd probably be stymied by the task of determining the resonant frequencies (of cam drive and of the tensioner), so I'd be forced to go back to looking for working examples! Just curious how the rest of you go about these things?...
I’ve already asked enough favors of my Aussie friends.
Can't sleep clowns'll eat me, can't sleep clowns'll eat me......... :roll: :roll: :roll:
Unless you have a valve interference issue with deceleration, why do you need the tensioner?
With regard to your previous oil spool / seat issues I also found this! :-oGraham,
(http://home.earthlink.net/~roygmisc1/convert1/convert69.jpg)
Here: http://home.earthlink.net/~roygmisc1/convert1/convert1.html
Conversion of auto to Manual, but some really useful stuff! 8-)
Chris;
And I thought my roll cage was hard to get in & out of.............. :-P
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
That cage is like a Caddy compared to the Unibody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even your lanky self can get in and out of that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
Woooo hoooo Chris looks good. Does the net tend to fall outward on it's own?
Boooya Frank.
PS I can't work on Amy's Camaro untill I get the master bath remod done...... :roll: :cry: :-(
Chris, when is this bad boy going back to the dyno?
Ah, yes – the piddly little things that can burn a half day of vacation – but they are done.Ah yes, progress, always good. And besides, who else gets to do the scut work besides the owner/driver?? Supremely glad that your liquor store run timing is hitting stride.
Dave at Streets Chassis pointed out to me that the lap belt was drawing over the edge of the seat and not giving direct pull to my hips.
Seat notched.
He also pointed out that the nylon tube for the oil pressure gauge would get me a finger waggin’ in tech.
Replaced with brass tubing.
When Dave put the new crossmember in, he had to move the brake line.
Brake line rerouted and reattached.
I also realized that with the addition of the net and the head restraint, along with racing gloves, it would be difficult at best to reach over my left shoulder to open the door.
Lanyard installed.
No pics tonight, but I’m getting better at this – I made it to the liquor store BEFORE I ran out of beer, and BEFORE they closed.
Timing is everything.
If you ever travel to San Antonio, you need to grab a bite @ the Josephine St. Cafe. Your kind of place. Might not work for Mrs. Midget though.........
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2327.jpg)
:cheers:
Fordboy
Chris, Carla cleaned out the fridge and found ONE LAST Sprecher Amber! Much enjoyed while listening to Glens interview!
Oh, so THAT's why Fordboy hasn't returned my call -
Bears 41 - Colts 21, 6:08 left in the last quarter.
Chrome???
Can you get it chromed by "one of them Keno girls?" :-D
fordboy makes me feel dumb!
On the latches, I was just thinking that you could get a good template by photocopying one. I have done this on various projects.
On the latches, I was just thinking that you could get a good template by photocopying one. I have done this on various projects.
Talk about making someone feel dumb . . . :-o
Yeah, that'll work!
Thanks, Trent
On the latches, I was just thinking that you could get a good template by photocopying one. I have done this on various projects.
Chris, I was going to say copy the latch, too but I was stuck with an epiphany on why there are so many more rusty trailer hitches around Kenosha! :-o
Will be incommunicado tonight, 7pm - 10:30pm, 50% chance of being elated or annoyed thereafter. Call at your own risk.........
Fordinator
:?
From an old radioman in the Navy,,,,,"Over, and out" is HIGHLY incorrect ! It means, "Go ahead and transmit,,,,,I'm sigining off" Just sayin' !
100 pages of posts :cheers:
Just a reminder for those who are following along, MAX that can be tolerated:
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/MidgetSpreadsheet02001.jpg)
:cheers:
Fordboy
PBR, drinking one right now while working on the lakester!
When he stopped up yesterday, he brought me back my clutch fork for the mock-up he has been doing. He suggested I change it out.
I was nothing short of shocked as to how much tighter this set-up is compared to what I had been running. The fulcrum bearing on the old one was shot, the yoke was oval, and the clevis pin – well, look for yourself [quote/]
Those are made from weareasyium an alloy used in all cars of your vintage. Many a linkage part have I replaced. I seem to have developed a 7th sense for noticing this type of wear without actually looking at the part. Thanks for reminding me of this... :-P
MM & FB, I'm here lurking and enjoying. Thanks for sharing.
I had been trying New Belgium 1554 this past week while working on the Jag. Things seemed to take longer an felt slightly off, like the gravitational field had shifted. Had to stop at the store on the way to the pig party and pick up my old standby Newcastle!
It was the year of the Lotus at the pig party. A gathering of racers, auto trade people, gearheads and special invites we hope to convert. Sports cars mostly with a few bikes. This year an old 65cc DKW and a new 1600cc BMW. However, the Loti were awe inspiring. I do not remember ever seeing so many in one place. An air burning Espri in black with all the creature comforts to spartain 7s in all colors.
Geo
When he stopped up yesterday, he brought me back my clutch fork for the mock-up he has been doing. He suggested I change it out.
I was nothing short of shocked as to how much tighter this set-up is compared to what I had been running. The fulcrum bearing on the old one was shot, the yoke was oval, and the clevis pin – well, look for yourself
I had been trying New Belgium 1554 this past week while working on the Jag. Things seemed to take longer an felt slightly off . . .
I’m not familiar with the whole Gilmer drive set-up, so clue me in. Click on the pic and it takes you to the movie
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/th_DSCN4788.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/?action=view¤t=DSCN4788.mp4)
Is this too much slack?
Also, please tell me that you are using flat washers under the mounting bolts for the aluminum water pump cog, and not your beloved, veddy Briddish "lock" washers.............. These 4 bolts need flat washers & safety wire. I'll drill some allen bolts for safety wire if you can't get drilled head bolts locally. Does the 3rd fhcs for the ignition plate need to be shortened? Can do at Apex (machine shop). Let me know on both.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Yes, along with lock washers.
Still need to pick up the last bolt at work - will stop by and do that today.
Off to breakfast, and to pick up the Mopar from the shop.
I'm becoming a fan of option 3, and I agree with your assessment - which also explains the need for the tensioner on the cam chain.
A wise move - picking up that extra belt.
Will tell you about the Fox Lake, IL wine & beer walk when I see you. It was a good time, excellent weather. Perhaps you & Mrs. Midget will consider it for next fall.
:cheers:
Fordboy
As a former H & G Prod. Spridget flogger, i am enjoying your build process,,
I have not been thru' the whole thread, but curious, what rear gear are you using?
Chris, are you going to the Ohio Mile?
Engine is coming along great! :cheers:
Congratulations on 100,000 views on your diary.
FREUD
FYI: Planning to be @ Apex (the friendly machine shop) 1/2 the day on Monday.
FYI: Planning to be @ Apex (the friendly machine shop) 1/2 the day on Monday.
Don't let him fool you, we're not that nice :-D
If I can take the Midget past 121.779 MPH, I think it will be equally important that people know, or are able to figure out that the I/GT record holder is an MG. But let's not get the cart before the horse.
Fordboy - GREAT JOB - WE HAVE CLEARENCE!
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4793.jpg)(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4792.jpg)
Still need to get the crank trigger drilled, but it could well be making noise this weekend.
Is there any provision to re-gear the car if you drive straight over the record? You could well be sitting there on Tuesday thinking " **ck it, I'm shooting for 200" :roll:.......
To answer your questions -
1) Is there room in front of the crank drive components to pull the crank damper? Difficult to tell from photo. This may be required to drill & tap the ignition trigger wheel properly in phase. Undoubtably will be required if changing the cam timing becomes necessary.
Yes – plenty. I’ve already indexed the trigger wheel to TDC and will drop it by Mel today to have the arbor and wheel drilled and tapped. #10 fine, I think you specified.
2) Did you receive the 5/16th x 24 x 3.5" fhscs? (I shortened the other one .40")
Expecting it this morning.
3) Does the 3/8ths ignition trigger bracket mounting bolt need to be shortened? (I expect so.)
It’s a bit long, but only on one end.
4) Rocker shaft pillar was in yesterday's mail when I arrived home from my 450 mile "trek". Plan to machine steel replacements on Thursday or Friday. Will need to know EXACT rocker shaft diameter or have shaft for fitting.
I’ll dust off the micrometer.
5) -8 Aeroquip oil line looks good.
Parts were cheap, too, courtesy of Forboy Racing Equipment and Surplus – you’re one-stop-shop for ALL your fitting needs. Talk to the guy in the Camo Cargo Khaki’s about special savings on Aeroquip overstock.
6) Were -4 line(s) long enough/short enough to mount & plumb remote clutch slave cylinder bleeder block?
QUALITY USED AN-4 LINE, courtesy of Forboy Racing Equipment and Surplus – you’re one-stop-shop for ALL your fitting needs. Talk to the guy in the Camo Cargo Khaki’s about special savings on Aeroquip overstock. International sales welcome.
7) Mocking up tool & parts for valve spring change-over setup. Will post photo later today/tomorrow when completed.
CUSTOM TOOLS DESIGNED AND CRAFTED BY - Forboy Racing Equipment and Surplus – you’re one-stop-shop for ALL your fitting needs. Talk to the guy in the Camo Cargo Khaki’s about special savings on Aeroquip overstock.
8] Do you have non-projected nose spark plugs available? You are going to need much colder plugs now that the C/R is up.
New plugs, cold enough to chill beer. I don't remember where I got those . . .
By the way, Mrs. Midget helped with the engine install. I love that girl.
5) Fordboy....... what's with the leaving out the d? Are you a olt or what?
Talk of changing out a rear brings up a question, will you have spare axle with you? Probably not a great concern on the salt surface, but BMC's finest were not the best.
Talk of changing out a rear brings up a question, will you have spare axle with you? Probably not a great concern on the salt surface, but BMC's finest were not the best.
Too true, unfortunately. My friends Sprite would consistently break its right rear axle in SCCA events. :-P
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Have you got/made a spot to hang your wheel when it's not "in situ" Chris? When you put it on the floor it invariably rolls out of reach right after you tighten your belts.....
So now the entire ultra-trick Fordboy drive gear is ready to go –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN4801_zpsb82e36b5.jpg)(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN4802_zps29b06966.jpg)
Fordboy Racing Equipment and Surplus – AND ENGINEERING - you’re one-stop-shop for ALL your fitting needs. Talk to the guy in the Camo Cargo Khaki’s about special savings on Aeroquip overstock. No job too large or too small.
Watch out for that chuck key ! :-D vic
BTW: That lathe looks a lot better than a hacksaw & a file to me..................
Watch out for that chuck key ! :-D vic
Vic, when I worked as a "machinist", and I use the term loosely, because I was much better at turning dairy metal castings into scrap, I was operating a Warner Swasey #5 and left the chuck in. Fortunately, I had also left the machine in reverse, and when I threw the switch, the chuck, probably about 1/2 lb of steel, catapulted right through the steel walled pole shed I was working in.
:-o
I went outside and retrieved it from a snow bank, and patched up the wall with a piece of sheet metal and a pop riveter, but to this day, I shudder to think what would have become of my shoulder if I had left it in forward. I could guarantee you, my nick name would not be "Lefty". :|
Mark, no apology necessary - It was just a tad long on one end. I suspect the guide slot track that the stand-offs sit in were probably changed at some point during the production run. If yours was .075 thicker, than your machining was perfect.
Ain't it amazing what you can survive when you are young & dumb! [And older and supposedly wiser!] :cheers:
Dyno time confirmed - 10:00 AM Tuesday.
I've got some work in front of me . . .
Excellent.
Clutch is plumbed, and the bleeder block works like a charm.
Wow - so THAT'S where the clutch is supposed to disengage! :roll:
:cheers: to one less "pita" job.........
Fordboy
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2394_zps806921dc.jpg)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2395_zps7f412fe6.jpg)
One thought - you mentioned indexing the plugs - I've got no shims - in that deep - and I mean REALLY DEEP pile of voodoo magic racing parts, have you got some to spare?
The electrical is ready, the fuel pump, fan and starter are functioning (I just bumped it to check, with the plugs out - relax) - we'll know about the ignition tomorrow. Radiators are in place and plumbed, I tidied the worm can of wires and bought a pale of 114. Carb is rejetted and ready to try, and the A/F gauge is in place.
I'd like to try to get this thing fired up before 8:00 PM so I don't get the neighbors all hot.
Well, maybe 9:00 - Andrew was the kid who would always come rolling in at 2:00 in the morning in his 5 liter 'stang and wake me up, so maybe I shouldn't worry too much . . .
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot - I got my entry fee out in the mail today, one day under the wire for the postmark. Mel at C&S is making noises like he's heading out - Max, Wayno, Slim - Who's heading out for World Finals? I'd like to start putting some more names and faces together.
Chris
The electrical is ready, the fuel pump, fan and starter are functioning (I just bumped it to check, with the plugs out - relax) - we'll know about the ignition tomorrow. Radiators are in place and plumbed, I tidied the worm can of wires and bought a pale of 114. Carb is rejetted and ready to try, and the A/F gauge is in place.
Oh, yeah, I almost forgot - I got my entry fee out in the mail today, one day under the wire for the postmark. Mel at C&S is making noises like he's heading out - Max, Wayno, Slim - Who's heading out for World Finals? I'd like to start putting some more names and faces together.
I'd like to try to get this thing fired up before 8:00 PM so I don't get the neighbors all hot.
Well, maybe 9:00 - Andrew was the kid who would always come rolling in at 2:00 in the morning in his 5 liter 'stang and wake me up, so maybe I shouldn't worry too much . . .
Toe out?
Click on the pic for the good news -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/th_DSCN4805_zps378ae0e0.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/?action=view¤t=DSCN4805_zps378ae0e0.mp4)
It lives! Well done guys, a major hurdle overcome.
:cheers:
:cheers:
Excellent! Sounds smooooth! Was that running in the cam? Were you using lighter valve springs, now swapping out to race spec?
Congrats! :-D :-D
Yea it lives :cheers: Congrats....And Keith Turk was not within ear shot :-D :-D
Frank
:cheers:
:cheers:
Excellent! Sounds smooooth! Was that running in the cam? Were you using lighter valve springs, now swapping out to race spec?
Congrats! :-D :-D
Can you get lanolin anywhere close by?
| June 17, 2008 | 1971 MG Midget bought |
| September 11, 2008 | Car stripped down to the tub |
| November 5, 2008 | First photos |
| December 8, 2008 | 2nd Midget bought |
| December 9, 2008 | Frame cleaned up, firewall installed, steering installed |
| January 20, 2009 | Seat arrived |
| March 10, 2009 | Ordered wheels, modified turn signals, start engine build |
| April 11, 2009 | Roll cage being installed |
| April 15, 2009 | Head, rods , crank back from rework |
| April 30, 2009 | Rocker arms hit cam pedestals and bolts |
| May 9, 2009 | Block is back |
| May 16, 2009 | Pistons, rods, crank, all in place |
| May 19, 2009 | Cam pedestal ground to clear rockers |
| June 6, 2009 | Waiting on Flywheel, New rocker adjusters, Header, Wheels |
| June 18, 2009 | 45 DCOE Weber carb arrived |
| July 7, 2009 | Wheels finally arrived. |
| July 21, 2009 | Installed new glass in windshield |
| July 29, 2009 | Scattershield mockup started |
| August 10, 2009 | Fenders - on, Brakes - done, Blow shield - Welder's phone not taking messages angry, Back - sore, Head - aching, Replacement glass - in, Much to do . . . |
| August 18, 2009 | Welder with my blowshield model – the Masonite model I spent a full weekend on – AWOL |
| August 25, 2009 | Spare tranny sent to Deist for scattershield blanket |
| August 28, 2009 | New tow vehicle purchased |
| August 29, 2009 | Custom steering wheel done |
| August 30, 2009 | Engine runs for the first time. |
| September 6, 2009 | Spray primer . . . Umm . . . Done. |
| September 8, 2009 | New paint job done |
| September 11, 2009 | On the road to Bonneville |
| September 17, 2010 | 22 mph run at World of Speed. Starter problems |
| October 8, 2010 | Found carb hitting hood caused speed problems |
| November 23, 2010 | Cleaned out attic and garage |
| November 28, 2010 | Ballistic blanket finally arrived |
| December 12, 2010 | Start on engine #2 |
| December 24, 2010 | Ordered 2.45” stroke billet crankshaft |
| January 1, 2011 | Pulled parts off the old engine. Pulled flywheel with kerosene space heater and wedges. |
| February 5, 2011 | Rods and rings and pistons oh my |
| February 13, 2011 | Programmable ignition arrived |
| February 26, 2011 | New removable steering wheel |
| March 8, 2011 | Welded the steering shaft - sold the welder |
| March 29, 2011 | Ebay water pump, fuel pump, fuel pressure gauge, starter |
| April 4, 2011 | received oil pump, the cam, the timing gears and lifters. |
| April 9, 2011 | New Cubs enabled AM radio |
| May 15, 2011 | Fabricated lexan windows. Installed fuel pump. |
| May 15, 2011 | Wrigley field - and a victory. Aux radiator acquired. |
| June 4, 2011 | Trailer acquired |
| June 18, 2011 | Block is back. Rods and pistons. Crank out for nitriding |
| July 23, 2011 | Fresh air vent fabricated |
| August 1, 2011 | Ordered door nets |
| August 4, 2011 | Crank back from nitriding |
| August 7, 2011 | Dry fit crank, had to radius bearings |
| August 10, 2011 | Off to Speedweek to spectate |
| August 28, 2011 | Refit the cam bearings. Trip to WF off. |
| September 1, 2011 | Exhaust valve #1 hits piston |
| September 10, 2011 | Mucho conversation about (*@&^# valve clearance. Aux radiator installed. Crank radius too big |
| September 17, 2011 | Oil pump pan clearance, rocker-head nut clearance . . . |
| September 18, 2011 | Head gasket clearance with a dremel. Short block done. |
| September 19, 2011 | Decals installed. |
| September 30, 2011 | Grenade ready to install |
| October 2, 2011 | Engine is installed with leaky engine hoist. |
| October 8, 2011 | It runs! Too late to make it to the drag strip. |
| October 20, 2011 | Clandestin trip down the alley - no power! |
| October 23, 2011 | Great Lakes Dragaway. Still no power. |
| October 30, 2011 | Maxton 91.913 mph - in 3rd gear. Problem solved! Launch at 5,000. |
| November 19, 2011 | Dyno session. 60.90 hp. 7,600 glorious power peak. |
| January 22, 2012 | Pulled the heads, definitely running rich. Oil seal springs came off. |
| February 25, 2012 | Changed to brass floats, fabricated hinged helmet support. |
| February 28, 2012 | Heads sent to APT for new valve guides. |
| March 18, 2012 | Out of the mists MB (Fordboy628) arrives for the first time. |
| April 1, 2012 | The valve spring discussion continues. New springs arrived. |
| April 5, 2012 | Heads have returned |
| April 13, 2012 | Change in direction. Dyno test postponed. Change to Saab clutch cylinder, oil lube changes, flywheel degree marking, notch the front crossmember. |
| April 22, 2012 | Trip to the Fordboy Ranch |
| April 26, 2012 | Discovered the cam was 10 degrees retarded. |
| May 1, 2012 | The T-shirt design arrives |
| May 2, 2012 | Discovered 3 degrees of slack in the cam chain. |
| May 3, 2012 | Arrgh. Cam scuffed. |
| May 9, 2012 | Rest of the engine looks worse. |
| May 16, 2012 | Head flowbenched |
| June 1, 2012 | Decision point on the cam/valve//head/pistons. |
| June 3, 2012 | Refabbed deck panel |
| June 9, 2012 | Crank back |
| June 25, 2012 | Headlight covers, 2nd fire system |
| July 11, 2012 | Roll cage modifications |
| August 1, 2012 | Block cleaning |
| August 4, 2012 | Head back after hair cut |
| August 9, 2012 | cam design locked in |
| August 29, 2012 | Pistons, rods, crank – in |
| September 2, 2012 | Cam chain tensioner |
| September 5, 2012 | Car back from roll cage mods. |
| September 10, 2012 | Going back together. Wiring, clutch cylinder, A/F gauge |
| September 13, 2012 | WATER PUMP/CRANK TRIGGER DRIVE PORN!!! |
| September 17, 2012 | The engine is in the car |
| September 21, 2012 | steel rocker pillars |
| September 21, 2012 | Front end aligned. Engine runs! |
Ok, dammit, I've been sucked into the beerhaven vortex.
And all that oil in a short time is from... ??? :?
Ok, dammit, I've been sucked into the beerhaven vortex.
Muhammad Ali once said,
“It's the repetition of affirmations that leads to belief. And once that belief becomes a deep conviction, things begin to happen.”
With that, Dean, Rob, Graham, Gog’s, Max, Wayno, Charles, Udo, Sparky, Sumo, Grummy, Captthundarr, everybody, I’m asking you to go to your fridge, crack one open, and join me in some commiseration.
And all that oil in a short time is from... ??? :?
Sorry for your FARKLE,,,, :-(
Reference Dean's post,,,2-28-12,,,,
There are of course other engine bits that will need to be inspected, evaluated, repaired, replaced, etc, etc. Chris' intention is to leave no stone unturned, (no beer unsampled?) a wise choice. The timeline is going to be up to Chris, and the adventure will begin anew.
Only a fool turns down an invite from the Mayor.
See you then, Dan.
You know, if you had been mean to me 6 years ago, I wouldn't be having all of this fun! :-D
:cheers:
The die is cast, Tman - in for a penny, in for a pound.
Is that to be delivered next week on a field of sodium? :roll:
"Gas is running out"? Hunh? Since we go past the Black Hills - southwest ND - on our way west (day after tomorrow) - are we going to need to be worried about getting enough diesel to power our truck for a few hundred mile? Or is the "shortage" just in the immediate Black Hills area?
Out for a charity dinner on Tue. night I saw $5.00 diesel in So. Cal. My thought was that the rising cost may put a damper on my next truck purchase.I hear you Dan, in 2004 I bought a diesel because it was always cheaper than unleaded regular, now its on a par with 91 octane gas!
DW
Is that the cylinder that the guide came loos in? If so I would say the piston slapping the valve knocked the guide loose. Clay is your friend.
Tough to get a micrometer on clay, and given the tight tolerances we're dealing with, I need numbers more reliable than clay can provide.
QuoteTough to get a micrometer on clay, and given the tight tolerances we're dealing with, I need numbers more reliable than clay can provide.
And that didn't work out very well. As with all things, tools left in the toolbox don't help. With clay you can turn the engine over, pull the heads and see what is going on dynamically. Put some small dots slightly thicker than your calculated dimension.
I think I need to get an accurate gasket thickness under clamped pressure, which I should be able to do with a dial indicator.
I think I need to get an accurate gasket thickness under clamped pressure, which I should be able to do with a dial indicator.
Easy way to check gasket thickness when compressed;
Punch a hole in it in a non critical area of the head gasket
Put a small piece of lead shot there "just" bigger than the thickness of your head gasket
Tension down the head
Remove the head
Measure the lead shot with a micrometer
Head gasket thk: .025" net (After milling .012" from block, changes piston height from -.004" to +.008" Actual gasket .033")
And while we are on the subject, NEITHER method reveals the actual dynamic clearance at 8500rpm (or
boy o boy have I learned that the hard way---I am running a 4.25 crank with 6.535 rods in a 9.8 block---we chose the short deck when I was the eng. partner in Skip H's car. We kept hurting pistons & rod brgs from what I was told was detonation at the time. Marvin the eng builder has gone up 10 thou on gasket thickness to compensate for piston rock and thermal expansion. Hopefully this will put an end to our longevity problems.
Assuming you're using hydraulic lifters Chris, you can buy a tool to pull them. It's a bit like the ones you use to reach deep and pick up something you dropped. Held with index and middle finger, activated by the thumb. It grips the lifter via the circlip groove that retaines the guts of the lifter.
There's also a flash model that has an expanding collet and slide weight.
If you're using solids,you're on your own. It's late and I'm too tired to read back and check sorry.
Cheers,
Rob
Thanks Fordboy,
All my greatest ideas are useless :-D
If it's late for me it must be really early for you!!
Cheers,
Rob
WE did loose compression---we are down to 12.8 Marvin calls my eng, a HOT street eng, he says he has built street engs with more CR
Chris:
You should make a pass thru Colorado and pick up some of this beer: http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/10/01/joke-wynkoop-brews-rocky-mountain-oyster-stout/6330/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-blogs+(Denver+Post%3A+Blogs) (http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/10/01/joke-wynkoop-brews-rocky-mountain-oyster-stout/6330/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-blogs+(Denver+Post%3A+Blogs))
:cheers:
Mike
Chris:
You should make a pass thru Colorado and pick up some of this beer: http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/10/01/joke-wynkoop-brews-rocky-mountain-oyster-stout/6330/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-blogs+(Denver+Post%3A+Blogs) (http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/10/01/joke-wynkoop-brews-rocky-mountain-oyster-stout/6330/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-blogs+(Denver+Post%3A+Blogs))
:cheers:
Mike
Chris:
You should make a pass thru Colorado and pick up some of this beer: http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/10/01/joke-wynkoop-brews-rocky-mountain-oyster-stout/6330/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-blogs+(Denver+Post%3A+Blogs) (http://blogs.denverpost.com/beer/2012/10/01/joke-wynkoop-brews-rocky-mountain-oyster-stout/6330/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dp-blogs+(Denver+Post%3A+Blogs))
:cheers:
Mike
I've sampled some pretty weird brews in my time, but this one appears to be the 'weirdest' possibility. What would be the side effects, if any? If the side effects are like Viagra..........count me in for a sixer.........
Guess I shouldn't sample that "Lobotomy Bock" I picked up in NOLA........
:cheers:
F/B
Different type of Oysters Goggles. :-o
MM;
What matters most is the valve-to-guide clearance when everything is HOT. Which expands more from cold to hot-- the valve stem or the guide in the head? The clearances need to be set accordingly.
"What you need is information."
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ (#6)
Hmm . . . a smidge. Is that close to an iota, scintilla, shred, smidgen, smidgeon, smidgin, tittle, or whit?
I'm absolutely sure it's bigger than a CH. Microns can be measured with an RCH. 8-)
I still have a verity of measuring devices...1st wife was a blonde and last 2 redheads. :-D :cheers: not to mention feeler gages and micrometers. sorry guys long day remodeling a bath..
I still have a verity of measuring devices...1st wife was a blonde and last 2 redheads. :-D :cheers: not to mention feeler gages and micrometers.
MM;
How about running a reamer through your Teflon valve seals to open them up a bit so a little more oil can get past them?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
So all things considered, it could have been much worse, but wasn't.
The repairs won't take that long, so when is the next dyno session!
So all things considered, it could have been much worse, but wasn't.
The repairs won't take that long, so when is the next dyno session!
My old pal, Dumb Luck.
I want this engine done, dynoed, and in the chassis no later than Christmas. I’m looking into engine dyno facilities rather than a chassis dyno.
Frankie, you must have insomnia, but thanks for taking the time.
Valve Stem sizes & Clearance in Longman Head, Post Mortem.
Midget,
Sorry for the various delays. At long last, INFORMATION........
Chart of dimensions after checking sizes of all parts with micrometer & dial bore gages. Same micrometer used to check valve sizes & set dial bore gages:
Cyl #/Type Valve # Valve Stem dia. Clearance
1 Ex 1 .2790/.2793 .0015/.0010
1 In 2 .2793/.2796 unknown
2 In 3 .2794/.2798 .0020/.0004
2 Ex 4 .2788/.2792 .0017/.0012
3 Ex 5 .2790/.2792 .0020/.0014
3 In 6 .2793/.2796 .0015/.0010
4 In 7 .2793/.2795 .0020/.0004
4 Ex 8 .2790/.2793 .0018/.0010
The guides, as opposed to being 'straight' & cylindrical in shape, are 'bellmouthed' at both the top and bottom of the guide. I suspect that this is a result of a worn guide hone/worn trueing sleeve or poor guide honing technique/operator error. Depending on how the clearance was measured, this probably contributed to a erroneous conclusion about the actual clearance.
I recommend something lighter, maybe a Hefe-weisen. Of course it is about 70 out here.
Chris, the amount of technical data in this thread is staggering- I've never learned so much about beer! Lol!
I can't wait to see this car and you in person!
Chris, the amount of technical data in this thread is staggering- I've never learned so much about beer! Lol!
I can't wait to see this car and you in person!
That is THE funniest post on this entire diary - Thanks, Buddy!
I've done some home brewing, but my engine building has proven to be more successful. :-P
Chris, the amount of technical data in this thread is staggering- I've never learned so much about beer! Lol!
I can't wait to see this car and you in person!
Midget, next fall you will have to come down & visit in September for the Chamber of Commerce's "Wine & BEER Walk". 12 stops @ various places in downtown Fox Lake, IL. 2 wine & 2 beer varieties to be sampled @ each stop!! Mrs. Fordboy enjoys the wine & the outing. Very civilized, & you can order your favorites afterward........
F/B
Over here we call it a pub crawl
G
In Beerhaven, it's called "bar hopping", it tends to be a little more ad hoc, and I ocassionally bump into the mayor - his security detail has since put me on their "persons of interest" list.
:wink:
Aren't you worried about the aero challenge with the 10 foot cross of St. Mowog on the roof of the car?
By the way, we're looking for a patron saint to whom we can attribute the miracles of the continued existence of this silly little motor I'm building.
Right now, we've got two candidates -
St. Edmund, who happens to be the patron saint of Abingdon on Thames. The guy was beaten and shot with arrows, and eventually beheaded. Personally I can relate to this one. Some days, I feel beaten up by this project, I've suffered the slings and arrows of misfortune, and there are times when I feel as though I'm going to lose my head.
The other is going to require assistance from the Vatican. I'm proposing putting my good friend "Dumb Luck" up for beatification and canonization. The faithful will then change his name to "Saint Mowog".
In an e-mail correspondence between Fordboy and myself, my arguement went like this -
Saint Mowog was present when I didn't blow up the Midget at Maxton, and when I didn't blow up the Midget last November on the dyno, and when we didn't hydro lock cylinders 1 and 2 on the dyno last month.
Clearly documentable miracles, all!
Saint Mowog would be the patron saint of near misses.
"Arise, Dumb Luck, for you have proven yourself worthy (if unreliable at times) to be venerated and ascribed a name that is well known in garages and recycling facilities the world over. Henceforth, you will go forth into the world (not wandering too far off of the beaten path, mind you) and also be well known to skate boarders, jay walkers, extreme sports aficionados, moto cross racers, along with your diminishing flock of British automobile owners, as Saint Mowog ."
Let's ramp that one right up and get to grinding away on it!
The medium of Mundelein has been in council with the oracle of Santa Rosa, but until the fleet of fleet-footed couriers in their chestnut chariots delivers the scepter, we must await our fate.
Re: Patron Saint of your project...............By the way, we're looking for a patron saint to whom we can attribute the miracles of the continued existence of this silly little motor I'm building.
Right now, we've got two candidates -
St. Edmund, who happens to be the patron saint of Abingdon on Thames. The guy was beaten and shot with arrows, and eventually beheaded. Personally I can relate to this one. Some days, I feel beaten up by this project, I've suffered the slings and arrows of misfortune, and there are times when I feel as though I'm going to lose my head.
The other is going to require assistance from the Vatican. I'm proposing putting my good friend "Dumb Luck" up for beatification and canonization. The faithful will then change his name to "Saint Mowog".
In an e-mail correspondence between Fordboy and myself, my arguement went like this -
Saint Mowog was present when I didn't blow up the Midget at Maxton, and when I didn't blow up the Midget last November on the dyno, and when we didn't hydro lock cylinders 1 and 2 on the dyno last month.
Clearly documentable miracles, all!
Saint Mowog would be the patron saint of near misses.
"Arise, Dumb Luck, for you have proven yourself worthy (if unreliable at times) to be venerated and ascribed a name that is well known in garages and recycling facilities the world over. Henceforth, you will go forth into the world (not wandering too far off of the beaten path, mind you) and also be well known to skate boarders, jay walkers, extreme sports aficionados, moto cross racers, along with your diminishing flock of British automobile owners, as Saint Mowog ."
Midget,
After much research, soul-searching, re-reading of e-mails, and backgrounds of the various Sanctified candidates, etc, etc, I have decided to cast my vote for; (if I even have a vote, after all, it's your project & MG) St. Dema of Elgin!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Ford (not a former altar) boy
B) St. Mowog (Paf), the former pagan deity 'Dumb Luck', 'Christianized'. (Your back-up or spare. All racers recognize the need for 'spares'. Christianizing of pagan deities has been a common practice of the Vatican over the centuries. It is done to neutralize the objections of former pagans about the 'Christian' deities by including some of their own into the "new order". Definitely applies here.)
Jesus drives a Honda????
God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden in his Fury. Jesus met with his apostles in an Accord. I suppose I have room in the Midget for a handful of deities . . .
Are there Canons of Ethics for LMAO???
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Sudsboy
Jesus drives a Honda????
Jesus drives a Honda????
No but Jesus built my hotrod. :wink:
God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden in his Fury. Jesus met with his apostles in an Accord. I suppose I have room in the Midget for a handful of deities . . .
dude, if you mentioned that band on our thread I would seek recompense.The answer is they both sucked.
hey Chris , hope you're OK there.
Murphy will still be trying to run things! :evil: :-D
The further opportunity that the engine dyno presents to resolve other problems BEFORE they become minor annoyances OR major catastrophies is simply a given...........
Holy Cow!! I go away for a few days and look what you guys get into. LMAO :cheers:
Beer, religion, looks like MORE beer. And then you top it all off with more beer. If your not careful a build thread will breakout!!!!
Nice posters, Dean, but why do they both say the same thing and why is it when I cover one eye, one goes away?
QuoteNice posters, Dean, but why do they both say the same thing and why is it when I cover one eye, one goes away?
Well, Chris, after looking at your picture, I'm baffled as to why that might be.
(http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb300/20101014/Strabismus-Eye-1671411.jpg)
For next September's Wine and Beer walk . . .
(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/10/22/GrOupLM_QU-9eGC5KD_9Ig2.jpg)
Beer, Beer, Beer. It's not always the correct choice!
Refer to the chart below for alternatives.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/10/22/2fKXFyuqsUSY8D5tFy3bAA2.jpg)
Amen brother.
I love flow charts.
Amen brother.
I love flow charts.
I've memorized my favorite flow chart. Lawn chair, Kiwanis concession stand overlooking turn 5 at Road America, cinder block toilet facility, lawn chair. Repeat as necessary.
I gotta tell ya, no matter where I go on the internet these days, I find this stuff.
(http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2011/2/23/8223eb90-6262-4f2a-a5f0-0ac6687a94c7.jpg)
WE FORGOT ST. PAULI!
We're going to have binders full of deities . . .
Midget,
Any response from St. Dema?
:cheers:
Fordboy
News from Harland Sharp is, as of this morning, they do not have the information on their BMC rockers regarding the moment of inertia. Randy said he's still working on it, and we CAN proceed without that info, but I guess I'd like to know before we move any further on this valve train.
So - turning to the great brain trust that is the land speed racing community - can somebody give me a method of calculating the moment of inertia on a billet rocker? It's a shaft type, and I'm thinking maybe using a method similar to checking end weights on a connecting rod might be a good starting point.
MM;
Here is one way to measure the moment of inertia of rocker arms-- connect the rocker arm directly to the shaft of an ironless armature permanent magnet DC motor which is driven by a constant DC current. This gives the motor a constant torque so its rate of angular acceleration will be determined by the motor + rocker arm moment of inertia. Measure the RPM vs time to get angular acceleration. Remove the rocker arm and repeat the experiment to get the moment of inertia of the motor alone and subtract the two numbers.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
... That info, with the rocker MOI, and the mass (weight) of all the components will allow us to run a comprehensive check of the of the valve spring pressures required to control valve train motion and discern if there is an adequate safety margin...Well, if you then apply a safety factor of about 2:1 you'll probably be "safe". I went through that whole tedious exercise once; only to scatter valevetrain bits on the track. Various approximations (e.g. spring mass) and frictional forces apparently kill the usefulness of the F=MA calculations. I do, however, now rely on cam grinders who will tell me the maximum negative acceleration of their various profile choices, or will limit that to a specified value for a custom lobe- but I only use that to make comparisons to spring forces of known-reliable engine combinations.
Well, if you then apply a safety factor of about 2:1 you'll probably be "safe". I went through that whole tedious exercise once; only to scatter valevetrain bits on the track. Various approximations (e.g. spring mass) and frictional forces apparently kill the usefulness of the F=MA calculations. I do, however, now rely on cam grinders who will tell me the maximum negative acceleration of their various profile choices, or will limit that to a specified value for a custom lobe- but I only use that to make comparisons to spring forces of known-reliable engine combinations.
"Very simple and straightforward" . . . but way past my comprehension level.
Midget,
Any response from St. Dema?
:cheers:
Fordboy
Seems Buddy might have been bending his ear about the Flatcad last Tuesday on his visit to Dema's shop, which I think was the day my cam arrived! :-D
Buddy, hope you enjoyed your visit. I hope to meet him myself someday soon.
News from Harland Sharp is, as of this morning, they do not have the information on their BMC rockers regarding the moment of inertia. Randy said he's still working on it, and we CAN proceed without that info, but I guess I'd like to know before we move any further on this valve train.
So - turning to the great brain trust that is the land speed racing community - can somebody give me a method of calculating the moment of inertia on a billet rocker? It's a shaft type, and I'm thinking maybe using a method similar to checking end weights on a connecting rod might be a good starting point.
I thought this thread was about beer, broads, and religion! :wink:
Cam is back from Dema, and he recontoured my lifters. Should be able to start screwing a few things back together this weekend.
Sorry to pull the plug on all the fun, but I've got an engine to assemble.
I was in the service with a rambling schmuck from Keokuk, but never visited myself. Did the oversized & overweight box make it to beertown?
Ask St. Dema if he has an electronic copy of the cam profile & if he is willing to e-mail it to you/me. I'll load it out to Cam-Pro & post-up the info/graphs. I'll also create a spreadsheet for the valve spring analysis from the cam info.
I'll be bock..........
:cheers:
Fordinator
The diaptre on the reground lifters is .5 which is a radius of 41 inches.
do a complete and thorough background checkWhat you need is the "APPLICATION FOR PERMISSION TO DATE MY DAUGHTER"
... The negative acceleration is -.00020...I'm guessing that's the maximum value of negative acceleration? And also assuming that's inches per degree-squared of cam rotation? If 'yes', then 2 x 10^(-4) will be quite "gentle".
Well, okay then – the cam is back in.
After a thorough cleaning with hot soapy water, brake cleaner, compressed air and WD40, the cam and the lifters are clean and installed. I haven’t tightened everything down – waiting for the head to show so I can apply some spring pressure to check the timing, but when I took the timing chain and sprockets off, I was able to take them all off as a unit. I just hung them from a nail on the wall through the cam sprocket. They are indexed as they came off, so timing should be close. I’ll be able to tweak it with the vernier, if necessary.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
The negative acceleration is -.00020.
Thinly, thinly, cheezy, slicey . . .
... The negative acceleration is -.00020...I'm guessing that's the maximum value of negative acceleration? And also assuming that's inches per degree-squared of cam rotation? If 'yes', then 2 x 10^(-4) will be quite "gentle".
(http://www.sparkcaster.com/demotivational/images/beer.jpg)
What you need is the "APPLICATION FOR PERMISSION TO DATE MY DAUGHTER"
http://www.freemaninstitute.com/dateapp.htm (http://www.freemaninstitute.com/dateapp.htm)
You don't need the head and/or spring pressure to check the cam timing. Just use your analog dial indicator (more tension than the digital indicator.....) and the setup we used when we checked it together back on 9/15. (reference reply #1510 photos & 1509 photos, for anybody following along.)
In the past, I have taken people's word for things without checking it, only to wind up with stuck valves and recontoured rockers . . .
In the past, I have taken people's word for things without checking it, only to wind up with stuck valves and recontoured rockers . . .
Ronald Reagan, Chris, Ronald Reagan! "Trust but verify."
:cheers:
Mike
And ALSO indicates NO CHAIN STRETCH! :cheers:
Now I get it....... I think....... :-D :cheers:
In the non-helpful replies category, which I'm VERY good at . . .
Bock beer . . .
(http://www.sparkcaster.com/demotivational/images/beer.jpg)
MM & FB
Sat at home consuming a special beverage and I thought of you :-D
Okay – as I had hoped, the timing dialed in at 105.5 with no adjustments necessary.
Time to clamp it down and give it a final check.
One stupid note – When I started today, I turned the crank two full turns, and noticed what appeared to be a .005 bump on the base circle at 180 degrees from tdc. The cam had just come back from Elgin, and I thought, “Oh come on, WTH?”. As it turned out, the #2 piston was pushing up the magnetic base of the dial indicator. :roll:
Fordboy! Looks like the Bears went to Home Depot and bought a 55 gallon drum of shellac to apply to the Titans.
So - with respect to verification -
Ironically, Fordboy's probably passing through Dutch's birthplace of Dixon, Illinois as we speak. Check my math and procedure, Chief?
80 degrees – referenced to zero
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4870.jpg)
131 degrees – referenced to zero
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4871.jpg)
Gets us 105.5 degrees, which, if I’m not mistaken, is precisely where we dialed it in a few months ago.
And ALSO indicates NO CHAIN STRETCH! :cheers:
Now I get it....... I think....... :-D :cheers:
We've been tossing out reams of numbers over here - don't feel bad. The reason I put them up, and the reason I've asked Fordboy to post 'em on the diary is so I've got access to them without having to dig.
Yeah, let's see - a 41" radius lifter would be 82" in diameter - which is a span that exceeds the wheelbase . . .
Hey - it's LSR - crazier things have been tried . . . :wink:
This time change thing has put me off my game.........
QuoteThis time change thing has put me off my game.........
au contraire, based on the above post, the C-clamp appears to be torqued quite tight.
And speaking of odd tools, a buddy went to japan to buy off on a custom CNC build.
The complete machine was sitting next to a partial build. On top of the frame was a sledge hammer . . . with a load cell on the face of the hammer.
Midget,
Today is your lucky day, sort of.......
Digging through old PHP dyno adaptor notes & drawings; AND, found drawing (non-digital) for BMC A series dyno adaptor to chevy bellhousing bolt pattern, AND, list of other adaptors required for BMC set-up.
Other required bits listed:
1] Front motor mount adaptors.
2] water outlet adaptor from BMC t'stat housing to dyno water outlet hose size.
3] water pump inlet adaptor from BMC water pump to dyno water inlet hose size. MUST BE A TAPERED ADAPTOR TO PREVENT WATER PUMP CAVITATION.
4] water outlet manifold to combine flow from T'stat outlet & additional rear water outlet as plumbed in your car. AGAIN, MUST BE FABRICATED TO PREVENT CAVITATION.
5] Must have a plugged oil filler cap for rocker cover if you want to quantify "blow-by" to evaluate piston ring sealing.
6] Adaptor from engine breather(s) to blow-by gauge.
7] adaptor from Weber carb to fuel supply, metric thread to -6 ?
8] adaptor for oil pressure measurement, bsp thread to -4 ?
9] adaptor for oil temp measurement ?
10] adaptor(s) for water temp measurement, if required. (not needed for Superflow 901 setup)
11] various fasteners to bolt everything together, some required are the dreaded flat head socket cap screw..........
12] anything else that I forgot or that you want to measure.
A CNC milling machine would be the tool of choice for fabricating the bellhousing adaptor, although it could be done on a "Bridgeport" type vertical mill with 2 axis digital readouts. Other bits could be done with a regular mill, drill press, regular lathe (or CNC lathe), etc. Some welding might be needed also.
Your thoughts?
:cheers:
Michaelangeloboy, er, Dutchboy
Spring cup drawing - corrected outside diameter as per our conversation.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/SpringCup.jpg)
Fordboy - any corrections?
My own experience is that progressively smaller rpm drops between gears is way to go for fastest acceleration to top speed....because that keeps the operating range in the upper reaches of the power curve. The torque peak is irrelevant.
QuoteMy own experience is that progressively smaller rpm drops between gears is way to go for fastest acceleration to top speed....because that keeps the operating range in the upper reaches of the power curve. The torque peak is irrelevant.
"...the speed target of 122." ???????????
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
"...the speed target of 122." ???????????
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I/GT - Class record is 121.779.
It's 20 years old, and owned by an Abarth.
I'm hoping to change that . . . it won't be easy.
Is it too late to protest? Did they make 500 of them A-barths? Can you put double bumps on yer roofs? Does that mean a Fiat ran two days in a row (I forgot about the four hours of fix-it time)?
Ah so! I thought you had planned that your car would top out at 122 mph!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Is it too late to protest? Did they make 500 of them A-barths? Can you put double bumps on yer roofs? Does that mean a Fiat ran two days in a row (I forgot about the four hours of fix-it time)?
Do you have a 4.22 and 4.55 diff's.?
Is it too late to protest? Did they make 500 of them A-barths? Can you put double bumps on yer roofs? Does that mean a Fiat ran two days in a row (I forgot about the four hours of fix-it time)?
... I'm going to add a 10%/15% margin of safety factor to the calculated spring tension...My [unpleasant] experience indicated that a true safety factor would add at least 40% to the calculated spring requirement. I'll wager that if you add 50% you'll be real close to what the cam lobe designer would recommend if you provide him with all the details. Just for chuckles, why not do that? The major cam companies are all more than happy to spend time discussing it with you.
... I'm going to add a 10%/15% margin of safety factor to the calculated spring tension...My [unpleasant] experience indicated that a true safety factor would add at least 40% to the calculated spring requirement. I'll wager that if you add 50% you'll be real close to what the cam lobe designer would recommend if you provide him with all the details. Just for chuckles, why not do that? The major cam companies are all more than happy to spend time discussing it with you.
Just for chuckles, why not do that? The major cam companies are all more than happy to spend time discussing it with you.
Just for chuckles, why not do that? The major cam companies are all more than happy to spend time discussing it with you.
With the new radius on the tappets, and a better controlled break-in of the cam, I’m confident we’re about maximized.
... I don't know what formula(s) you have been using to calcuate spring pressure requirements...It should be obvious, but if you insist:
... I don't know what formula(s) you have been using to calcuate spring pressure requirements...It should be obvious, but if you insist:
[Sir Isaac] Newton's 2nd law: F=ma.
Did USPS deliver the adaptor tracing?
I'd take the push any way to save parts.
Midget,
Off to see the Wizard tomorrow, Longman head & the attendant bits in hand. Will advise as to how Toto responds to the Emerald City "shine-up"...........
Nope, I have not seen you about these parts.
Looking forward to "mo data"
Keep up the good work Fordboy!
Geo
Fordboy, I think you still have my transmission case – I’ll need to make arrangements to come and get it this week.
Never shifted a car with straight cuts – this may prove to be interesting.
Question me this . . .
12.96% always sounds like a good number. Reducing the mass of the valve train is always good.
But how good? If you made no other change to the engine, what horsepower difference between stock weight and modified weight valve train?
Race engine calculations always have a 1:1 correlation between cubic inches and cubic dollars. And that's for the first 95%.
That last 5% that gets you out of 2nd place costs double cubic dollars.
Dean -
We're thinking along the same lines.
While weight reduction is almost always good, at this point, provided the valvetrain is stable, all I think I could reasonably achieve by lightening the valve train further would be additional revs, which I don't think I need.
For a ball park comparison, everything here likely weighs half of comparable SBC components. So the overall mass in motion is significantly less, although proportionally more per HP than would be the case on a SBC. As the scale of a build goes down, so retreat the achievable advantages from weight reduction in the valve train.
In short, it still has to be "X" strong.
We are at the point of diminishing returns.
Dyno Day Approaches.
As to cubic dollars per horsepower, I'm in denial, but it's safe to say I could have built a pretty darned strong Mopar street engine for what I've sunk into this thing.
Not an expert, but:
The goal is to get the spring rate down. Do everything you can to run the lightest spring rate that will stop the engine from playing piston-tag.
Keep the springs cool when running, release them in storage, and check/replace on routine basis.
Gains in HP, lower oil temps, better guide life, valve life, lifter life, cam life, cam drive, bearings, etc.
How much HP it's worth is part of the equation, not the whole enchilada. Some of the costs can be recovered by longer life of related items.
But I could be wrong. It's worked for me, but I'm not hardcore.
Fordboy,
Re: Preliminary spreadsheet, reply #1865
It is generally accepted that the effective mass of a spring is 1/3 the total mass. Is your 1/2 factor “preliminary” or just a measure of conservatism?
... 2/ The resonant frequency of the spring(s) selected need(s) to be evaluated Vs. engine operating rpm range....Tell us about that evaluation.
Sure is nice uploading to Photobucket without having to sit through a political ad . . .
Fordboy – it occurs to me that with a 60 tooth crank trigger, every tooth = 6 degrees, and seeing as I already have a reference with the sensor, a simple color coding method would suffice . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN4875.jpg)
I can tweak it in the software.
... 2/ The resonant frequency of the spring(s) selected need(s) to be evaluated Vs. engine operating rpm range....Tell us about that evaluation.
Midget,
Sounds like a good plan, what would be the reference pointer/indicator? I'm thinking it should be something visable as installed in the chassis. You should use the same method for checking the timing on the dyno, that you will have to use in the chassis.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Double Woot!
A few volunteers to wander past and check on it at Speedweek will be greatly appreciated. Easy to operate, works fine and lasts a long time. No Lucas parts therein, no oil leaks. Dang, MM, you are right handy . . .
The plan is for Mrs. Midget and I to be at Speedweek 2013.
If I can manage the time I will.
If I can manage the time I will.
Land Speed Racing and time management?
Trent, you're a funny guy!
Salt27 - you won't leave my pit thirsty.
If I can manage the time I will.
Land Speed Racing and time management?
Trent, you're a funny guy!
Salt27 - you won't leave my pit thirsty.
If I don't finish the car I have all kinds of time!!!!
If you have a "pit" you must be bringing the Midget. :cheers:
Did you happen to catch Randal Sprecher on NPR's "Wait wait don't tell me"?
A sharp wit.
Don
Hey Chris, if tomorrow is garage day, maybe I should stop by with some Polygamy Porter. I'm curious about the wrap.
I expect we're all getting the junk about "briansmodelcars" on this topic. I don't know why it's there, but I do know that I'll now start trying to get rid of it. In the meantime I suggest just clicking on "cancel" to make it go away from whatever you're seeing it on for now.
Sorry it's there. I didn't see the usual spam warning signs.
The only Floyd that I know is pink. And this is export Polygamy, not instate.
I expect we're all getting the junk about "briansmodelcars" on this topic. I don't know why it's there, but I do know that I'll now start trying to get rid of it. In the meantime I suggest just clicking on "cancel" to make it go away from whatever you're seeing it on for now.
Sorry it's there. I didn't see the usual spam warning signs.
Release Brian........
I got it too, they're probably Midget sized....
Please ask them if it's still happening. I suspect it's not. I had set
permissions for BMC to require a login so if someone had linked to something
on BMC in a thread on this forum it would pop-up a login prompt asking for
their username and password when the page the thread was on loaded. I just
changed it so it doesn't ask for a login anymore. ~gary.
Don't feel useless, Bob -
cause we still love you. Well, we still like you.
Okay - we put up with you. There - how's that?
Ah -- you folks haven't got it figured out, have you? The stars and colors and "titles" are all decided by the machine. It uses a complex formula the requires considering the time of day at the poster's location, the serial number of the poster's spouse's alarm clock, and the color of the toothpaste that the neighbor, third on the left across the street, uses for him morning hygiene. Following that assessment the machine computes a result to determine a number, also consulting a random number chart, to apply to a Pantone color chart, from whence we get not only a color - but also a number that corresponds to the CMY formula of that color.
Got it?
Ah -- you folks haven't got it figured out, have you? The stars and colors and "titles" are all decided by the machine. It uses a complex formula the requires considering the time of day at the poster's location, the serial number of the poster's spouse's alarm clock, and the color of the toothpaste that the neighbor, third on the left across the street, uses for him morning hygiene. Following that assessment the machine computes a result to determine a number, also consulting a random number chart, to apply to a Pantone color chart, from whence we get not only a color - but also a number that corresponds to the CMY formula of that color.
Got it?
Ah -- you folks haven't got it figured out, have you? The stars and colors and "titles" are all decided by the machine. It uses a complex formula the requires considering the time of day at the poster's location, the serial number of the poster's spouse's alarm clock, and the color of the toothpaste that the neighbor, third on the left across the street, uses for him morning hygiene. Following that assessment the machine computes a result to determine a number, also consulting a random number chart, to apply to a Pantone color chart, from whence we get not only a color - but also a number that corresponds to the CMY formula of that color.I'm starting to miss Brian. :roll: Wayno
Got it?
Where's Franklin?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Where's Franklin?
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Midget, et all,
For my Merry Christmas toast to all, (and Happy New Baktun!!), I highly recommend:
New Holland Brewing's Dragon's Milk. (an Imperial Stout, 10.0 ABV rated 98 @ ratebeer.com) I however, give it a 100 score......
http://newhollandbrew.com/beer/high-gravity-series/dragons-milk-ale-aged-in-oak-barrels/
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/new-holland-dragons-milk/14621/
Take care, a couple of pints of this stuff takes you out of the driver's seat, and probably sends you to naptime......
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
F/B
Would love to try that one.... not available within 100 miles or more of Wichita. (according to New Holland website)
Midget, et all,
For my Merry Christmas toast to all, (and Happy New Baktun!!), I highly recommend:
New Holland Brewing's Dragon's Milk. (an Imperial Stout, 10.0 ABV rated 98 @ ratebeer.com) I however, give it a 100 score......
http://newhollandbrew.com/beer/high-gravity-series/dragons-milk-ale-aged-in-oak-barrels/
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/new-holland-dragons-milk/14621/
Take care, a couple of pints of this stuff takes you out of the driver's seat, and probably sends you to naptime......
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
F/B
Would love to try that one.... not available within 100 miles or more of Wichita. (according to New Holland website)
Ok, so we survived one disaster.
On to the next disaster . . . have you fired up the motor yet? :evil:
Ok, so we survived one disaster.
On to the next disaster . . . have you fired up the motor yet? :evil:
Dean, don't you have some palm trees to trim? :-P
Still waiting on the spring cups - holidays seem to slow walk everything.
Next time it fires up will be on the dyno.
Considering how much wasn't right, it's a miracle I haven't broken something beyond repair.
I'm feeling pretty confident at this point - but I've felt confident before, and I was just lucky.
Disaster would have been taking it out in October untested.
A grand and glorious Christmas to everyone, and a safe and fast New Year.
Back to subject, might want to run it a little before the dyno just for fun. :cheers:
Been a good year so far, hope the next one lands you in Warnerville
See ya on the salt 8-)
Well, this promises to be the biggest fiasco of the build to date.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN4912.jpg)
Last month, MiniMania had their straight cut, close ratio gearset for the Midget on sale. I’d never seen that before, and it was a full 25% off of their regular price. It was clearly an attempt on their part to get these pieces off of their shelves before end-of-year. I suspect they were ordered for a customer who backed out, as normally these are a special order item from Britain. I had them within a week.
I would have liked to have had a dyno run under my belt to know if I needed to go with a close ratio set, but given the added strength of the straight cuts, less parasitic loss, and what I’m sure will be a very narrow power band, I’m thinking it was the right thing to do.
Definitely wider than the stock units –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN4913.jpg)
First gear goes from 3.2:1 to 2.57:1
Second gear goes from 1.916:1 to 1.722:1
Third gear goes from 1.357:1 to 1.255:1
Forth gear remains the same 1:1
Now comes putting it back together. I also see it’s 8:57, and the liquor store closes in 3 minutes . . .
Probably a good thing it was in a secured Lexan case.
With all due respect, if Chris took time to wipe up his drool, he'd never get anything done. :roll: WaynoQuoteProbably a good thing it was in a secured Lexan case.
In all things etiquette and proper form are continuously required. Did you wipe the drool off the case?
QuoteProbably a good thing it was in a secured Lexan case.
In all things etiquette and proper form are continuously required. Did you wipe the drool off the case?
Midget,
Cylinder head not on block yet? Flow bench arrives soon.
:cheers:
Fordboy
I've got a new column posted up on the Moss Motoring website. Another will be sent up shortly, but for the time being . . .
http://www.mossmotoring.com/bonnienogo/
If you need Brit bits – make these guys your first call – they’ve been awful nice to me.
Just e-mailed you the AutoCad drawing for Chevy crank centerline & bellhousing mounting bolts. Send it on to your AutoCad buddy & ask him if he can open/use it.
Chris: how about something British for a push-start vehicle?
Thames (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-300E-Sedan-Delivery-1959-English-Ford-Thames-Anglia-Gasser-300E-/150978226349?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item232700e8ad)
Mike
Chris: how about something British for a push-start vehicle?
Thames (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-300E-Sedan-Delivery-1959-English-Ford-Thames-Anglia-Gasser-300E-/150978226349?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item232700e8ad)
Mike
What's not to like?? '59 Briddish wid a heart transplant from Detroit........ Do you know anyone who could fit a belly pan??.........
It would take a really big chute to stop it, the Phoenix had a 24 footer. :-D
Don't cha just hate life's little lessons!!! :evil: :evil: :roll:
Pete
They're either in a coffee can, a plastic box or a bag . . . or was it a fruit jar?
An inventory of parts using the BL service manual indicates that there are better than 17 missing plungers, fork locating screws, collar pegs, balls, springs, etc.
MIA? Maybe that should be Missing From Inaction.
This is above and beyond the replacement parts I have on order. The ones I have on order are available. These are the parts that are listed as “NA”.
Tomorrow, I’ll give it one last combing – the basement shop, the studio, the attic, the garage, the rafters in the garage, the boxes of MGB parts, but if noon comes around and I can’t find ‘em, I’ll be tearing apart the other transmission.
BMC Dyno Adaptor Porn
Midget,
Just an image to whet the appetite.....
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/BMCDynoAdaptor.jpg)
Sorry, I can't seem to get the sharpened, edited PhotoBucket image to post, only the original. Even though I replaced the original image with the edit.......????
This is a tracing of the original, handmade dyno adaptor, from a previous lifetime, long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away..........
Working on the AutoCad drawing for the updated, CNC'able version.
...
Fordboy
Don't cha just hate life's little lessons!!! :evil: :evil: :roll:
Pete
It would be nice if I could just remember to learn from them.
They're either in a coffee can, a plastic box or a bag . . . or was it a fruit jar?
Thought I was the only one with these problems, I don't have that "left out" feeling now!
Ed
The length of time between failures of a certain part can be calculated by measuring the length of time it takes to forget the either the special techniques of how to complete the necesary service, the length of time required to forget where the special tool was stored or simply the length of time required to forget the resolution that next time you'll get someone else to do it, because it's better, cheaper, and quicker.
I said that. :roll:
Pat, what would we look under in the yellow pages to find your kind of business? I can see where using that sort of service and then using a good laser / water jet cutting service could make life much easier in some areas. I already use the latter rather regularly and I can see where your services could become habit forming too. :-D :-D :-D
Thanks for generating the idea.
Pete
That gearbox was set up with race clearances.....it's much nicer finding compromised parts that survived than looking in vain for the cause of a failure..... upon removing our old diff I found there was some weld spatter in the axle tubes from when the suspension mounts were removed, not any old spatter, I found some balls that were 1/4 dia., they could have brought things unstuck pretty badly, this time I pulled a rag right through both tubes... :roll:
Has 2,000 freakin posts!
Has 2,000 freakin posts!
Wow!! Beerhaven vortex gaining speed and energy........ kinda like a........ TROPICAL CYCLONE?!?!?
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Maybe the Harland Sharps are decent for American V-8's, but next time, I'll be looking at Titans.
Maybe the Harland Sharps are decent for American V-8's, but next time, I'll be looking at Titans.
Next time?
The time is now, this, is real.
Yeah, I know........ :roll:
I didn't know the PIMP class, err I/PMP went that low.
I’ll begin setting up the wiring harness for the dyno tomorrow.
Looking good Chris. Best of luck this dyno run!QuoteI’ll begin setting up the wiring harness for the dyno tomorrow.
I know someone with some yellow wire. Still has smoke in it.
Geo
Midget,
the weights of the components........... and/or a new doctor..........
:cheers:
F/B
I have a friend who knows a doctor in Sweden that specializes in tranny conversions . . . would that help?
Lou Reed, right? It took me a second or two - Nancy came up with the singer's name. We were listening to some Tommy James and the Shondells -- kinda difficult to make the switchover.
I rest my case.
Why use four parts when there is the opportunity to use twenty?
In British car designers minds bolts are an infinite resource, we are thinking of you in that dungeon, wrestling the BMC serpent.
So I guess I'm resting my case as well . . .
So I guess I'm resting my case as well . . .
What color is the case. Yellow?
G
Anyway, Fordboy - A quintabazillion thank-yous for the drawing. This is huge, and near as I can tell, the only one ever put out on the interwebby to share with other A-series guys. You've done the world a tremendous service - now we can ALL dyno our Spridgets and Minis, and find out how much horsepower they're not making.
:cheers:
INTERMINGLING OF THE SPECIES..... AKA, DYNO ADAPTOR PORN!!!!
Little Tommy, er, Midget......
At long last: illicit mating of BMC to Chivalay...... (Rumored to be penalty of death in most Star Systems, probably too pleasureable.......)
Dyno adaptor shape, dimensions to follow.....
:cheers:
Fordboy
I think I'll make one in case MM someday wants to run his engine in I/StR.
Wait, never mind. No such critter.
Midget,
How about an engine adaptor to fit a turbo Hayabusa 999cc to a MG Midget (or Datsun??) gearbox? What class would that be?
Oh, wait..... driveshaft, diff and axles suspect for real HP.......
Might as well race something diecast with 4 valves/cylinder to begin with....... Renault R5 Turbo!!!!!!!! 3576 Frenchmen can't be wrong.........
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivo:Renault_5_Maxi_Turbo_-_Race_Retro_2008_02.jpg
:cheers:
F/B
Midget,
Fearless Leader requests, er, demands, update on progress of assembly of the People's Transmission. Design was implemented by loyal mole, intending to derail British war effort. Fearless Leader also demands latest updates for surveillance of Moose & Squirrel...........
Na Zdorovie,
Boris
Well, let's put it this way - I've been pretty consistent on showing both my achievements and my failures during this build, but as to the nature of the red liquid in the photos, I'd kind of like to maintain a degree of plausible deniability . . .
So yeah, that's grease . . . mostly . . . I think . . .
:wink:
Moose & Squirrel insist on another clandestine debriefing at the same seedy Beerhaven Hotel........
I feel awful now.
I had no idea it was THAT bad.Who was the bored lunatic who came up with that design? I bet it was tiny too, so there was plenty of room for your petite mits....
It's..........., ALIVE!!!!!! Frankentablet, that is.......
P.S. HP Plotter fired right up......need new pens though......
I'll call the Pope and see that he adds your post-modern cybor-archeology expeditions to your hagiography.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Crapernicus;
"...I think a hefty mallet might be a useful addition to one's kit, especially when a 'Briddish' vehicle is the focus......... "
Wouldn't the law consider that to be with "mallets aforethought"? m :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Crapernicus;
"...I think a hefty mallet might be a useful addition to one's kit, especially when a 'Briddish' vehicle is the focus......... "
Wouldn't the law consider that to be with "mallets aforethought"? m :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Maybe we should move this over to the “Stupid Joke Friday” thread? :|
Crapernicus;
"...I think a hefty mallet might be a useful addition to one's kit, especially when a 'Briddish' vehicle is the focus......... "
Wouldn't the law consider that to be with "mallets aforethought"? m :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Maybe we should move this over to the “Stupid Joke Friday” thread? :|
Why not? We have tech threads in the Diary section! :roll:
Crapernicus;
"...I think a hefty mallet might be a useful addition to one's kit, especially when a 'Briddish' vehicle is the focus......... "
Wouldn't the law consider that to be with "mallets aforethought"? m :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Well Neil, it depends on how the car was optioned.
My MGB has knock-off wheels, and came equipped with a lead hammer in the tool kit - and that right there is revealing - never buy a car where a tool kit is standard equipment, and in particular, one that includes a hammer of any form.
On the other hand, MGs with bolt on wheels are deemed to have an absence of mallet. :wink:
Maybe we should move this over to the “Stupid Joke Friday” thread? :|
Crapernicus;
"...I think a hefty mallet might be a useful addition to one's kit, especially when a 'Briddish' vehicle is the focus......... "
Wouldn't the law consider that to be with "mallets aforethought"? m :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Once again, my new column is up.
Hope you enjoy it.
Chris
No, my friends, after two weeks of staring at it, it finally came to me.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN4939_zps6e573062.jpg)
Mostly Old Worn Out Gears.
Well, I was able to get prints of the adapter plate made – 3 in total –
Unfortunately, they are not scaled properly. Paul at Kinko’s is going to dig into the program and try to get this print done up at a one-to-one sizing so it can be used as a template.
No, my friends, after two weeks of staring at it, it finally came to me.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN4939_zps6e573062.jpg)
Mostly Old Worn Out Gears.
Yikes!! Are those synchro teeth missing in action?? Better stop "powershifting" into 3rd........
:-(
Fordboy
Once again, my new column is up.
I'm wearing a very nice shirt from a friend of mine who is mid-thrash at the moment.
http://www.mossmotoring.com/you-never-forget-your-first/
Hope you enjoy it.
Chris
hmm, like this?.....note stubbie of CUB Abbottsford Invalid stout...
Chris,
Looking at your adaptor drawing I assume that the X/Y coordinates for each hole realted to the center point of the plate is part of the call out that I see going to each hole, I cannot read them. There is absolutely no way that I would make a part as important as this plate and do it scaling a drawing or even using the drawing as a layover template. The tranny input shaft pilot should be aligned to the center of the crank pilot bushing/bearing within +/- .002 inch or better. That ain't happening scaling a drawing.
Rex
I have done 1:1 large scale drawings on many pen and ink jet plotters. They are dead accurate. I have used them as a check template for a 4' x 8' kevlar honeycomb panel for aircraft galleys.
Put cross hairs on the circles and you can centerpunch them and drill for non-bridgeport parts. As accurate as putting dykem blue and scribing.
1:1 plotted on Mylar is how a lot of airplanes used to be built... CNC these days. Paper can't be trusted.... but since you are just checking... it is a lot cheaper than Mylar
:cheers:
Fordboy
P.S. Stainless, Did you try the Dragon's Milk yet?
Yes I did, WOW!
It makes a great "after dinner" beer, comes out of the fridge before dinner...
Hijack :?
I thought this was a beer thread with a little car back story....
:cheers:
Split a bomber last night with 2 friends, poured into snifters... perfect for desert after smoked salmon, roasted vegetables and Parmesan polenta.
Temporary thread hijack........
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/new-holland-dragons-milk/14621/
Sorry Chris, couldn't stop myself.......
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Hijack :?
I thought this was a beer thread with a little car back story....
:cheers:
Split a bomber last night with 2 friends, poured into snifters... perfect for desert after smoked salmon, roasted vegetables and Parmesan polenta.
"Miler Time"????? :lol:
10:30 AM on a Thursday and you guys are already talking beer? Doesn't anybody work anymore? (not me) In any case, here are a couple of Colorado beers you might want to try with your cheese and crackers.
The Stainless theory on beers...
Dark beers usually have lots of flavor.... just saying...
Now I have had some very tasty light ales and lagers, so don't get me wrong, I do venture there as well. But I really like the darker hues.... and the new big thing in micro seems to be aging in used barrels... both of my locals do... and that really adds those layers :-D
Now back to your regular programming... how's that MOWOG tranny install thing coming along :cheers:
(http://img.ksl.com/slc/6/670/67068.jpg)
Now back to your regular programming... how's that MOWOG tranny install thing coming along :cheers:
Lots of yellow snow but no Huskies!!! :-D
clicked it on and ran it for about 15 minuets
Lots of yellow snow but no Huskies!!! :-D
Usually Peter Jack handles the snow dogs. :-D
I took my 1/2 inch drill and hooked it up to the input shaft of the transmission, clicked it on and ran it for about 15 minuets, switching back and forth between the gears.
Seems to work at 1/3 HP. Guess I'll know for sure when I bolt it back to the engine and double that figure . . .
:-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: The evil here just doesn't stop.
clicked it on and ran it for about 15 minuets
Minuets?, there's no end to your artfulness....
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Minuet.
A minuet, also spelled menuet, is a social dance of French origin for two people, usually in 3/4 time. The word was adapted from Italian minuetto and French menuet, and may have been from French menu meaning slender, small, referring to the very small steps, or from the early 17th-century popular group dances called branle à mener or amener.
The term also describes the musical form which accompanied the dance, and subsequently developed more fully, often with a longer structure called the minuet and trio.
I have been dancing, mine though has been more the modern interpretive/expressive dance where I run around in random sized circles with my hands in the air shrieking..... I call it "The Thrash"
Dean, I seriously doubt that you know any normal people :-D
:cheers:
Very nice.
I hate to to change the subject, but is this dyno week?
Great. I've had some export Polygamy Porter sitting here for you.Sounds like a beer that would be popular in Salt Lake City.
Great. I've had some export Polygamy Porter sitting here for you.Sounds like a beer that would be popular in Salt Lake City.
Given that the Utah state flag has a beehive on it, I'm surprised there isn't a larger availability of mead in the state.I doesn't know. :| Wayno
Wayno - what's up with that? :?
Oh no, you don't - this story is just beginning -
Dyno info -
It's actually a SF-902, Not a 901 No problem there.
500 gallon Shouldn't be an issue at your estimated bhp output.
Spline diameter - 10 spline, 1.375
Pilot nose from front of face - extends 9/32
Pilot length - to base of chamfer/radius - 1 5/32
Front of spline to face - 1 5/16
Back of spline to face - 3 3/8
Spline length 2 1/8
Pilot diameter .582 Better to have been SBC rather than BBC, we will just make it work with a proper drive adaptor.
They can make the cable work - I'll need to source a cable ~ 48" long. OK. I may have enough bits for a pull rod system as I previously used. Will dig through my bits.
No exhaust gas metering - I'll need to fab up some sort of an adapter which will afix to the face of the Weber that will fit a 5.030 diameter air horn to monitor air intake - I think I can make that happen - we have some sheet metal stamping equipment here at the shop. Having an airbox to adapt your Weber to the S/Flow airflow turbine is essential to validate engine airflow #'s & BSAC. These #'s need to be captured for serious development......... Need to discuss minimum airbox (plenum) volume & dimensions.
Fuel metering is there. Think I have a -6 to Weber adaptor or a adaptor line.
Upper radiator hose is set up for -16 - lower 1 1/2. Upper adaptor needs to be a "Y" for flow. Lower adaptor needs to be tapered rather than stepped, again for flow.
Printout is spreadsheet - no provision for graph, but graph paper is cheap enough. I'll bring my laptop with my spreadsheet & graph program. Won't be instant information, but it will be faster than graphing by hand. Can they burn a disc of all the runs?
They were impressed that I was this serious about it, and very helpful. Just goes to show you how serious their average customer is about development........... I suspect those customers just want a number. If the number is good or higher than they expected, OK. If the number is lower, then they probably get: "What's wrong with your dyno?"
I was the lovable penile device today.
Midget,
"Wiggle-pin" reports BMC/Chivilay sex toy is now completed. Requests pickup @ earliest convenience.
Over & out
Rocket J. Squirrel
They sell Moose slobber beer in Wendover. :-P Tastes like it too.
They sell Moose slobber beer in Wendover. :-P Tastes like it too.In this sport, it all seems to go back to the flathead, doesn't it?
They sell Moose slobber beer in Wendover. :-P Tastes like it too.In this sport, it all seems to go back to the flathead, doesn't it?
Hmmm, YOU could have the first flathead powered Midget! :-D
Chris,
My apologies, I thought that as far as Chevy splines went all you had to do was count 10 or 26, I didn't even consider diameter.
As to what to do with it, do you shoot skeet?
Don
Hmmm, YOU could have the first flathead powered Midget! :-D
I never would have guessed that!
When is dyno day?
Write it stone Chris! That way, you'll be ready by April 13th! :wink:
No hijack intended. My buddy has a few of these English cars on his property. It seems he was bitten when he still lived in Denmark.
Re: Intermingling of the Species, Final Chapter.....
Welllll..... not quite.......
Midget, et all,
Control your impulses, photos to follow.......
Will it adapt to a BMC "B"?
C trannys use a different bell and case, same insides. V-8s use adapter plates. So nothing, B, C, nor V-8 is interchangeable.
Will, it adapt to a BMC "B"?
Will, it adapt to a BMC "B"?
Midget, Don,
Does the MGB have a separate bellhousing? Or is it like the "A" series, with the bellhousing integrated with the transmission case? A serarate bellhousing would allow a simple "flat plate" adaptor, between the Superflow absorber unit and the "B" bellhousing. The Superflow absorber unit has both Chevy & Ford transmission mount patterns drilled into it. Have made several adaptors of this type, notably Jag 3.8/4.2, and Chrysler 392/354/331 Hemi. Much simpler and cheaper adaptor than what is required for "A" series.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Kind of makes you long for the simplicity of a Corvair. . . . Oh, wait, Corvairs are Chevies. . . . . . :wink:
Kind of makes you long for the simplicity of a Corvair. . . . Oh, wait, Corvairs are Chevies. . . . . . :wink:
If I were longing for simplicity, a Chevy would be high on my list.
No, I'm longing for improbable success, and what makes it worse is my conviction that I'm going to achieve it. :wink:
Uhmm, yes, those are factory casting numbers on the tops of the iron heads. . . . . . . hmmm. . . . . sounds SCTA legal to me.
:cheers: yet again
Fordboy
I'm beginning to think you guys type with more than two fingers. :-o Wayno
Uhmm, yes, those are factory casting numbers on the tops of the iron heads. . . . . . . hmmm. . . . . sounds SCTA legal to me.
:cheers: yet again
Fordboy
I'll be making an inquiry - it's kinda "iffy", but it certainly won't hurt to ask. I do know this - I'd have to be certain I could document their pedigree.
I'm not going to be able to get ANYTHING done today . . .
isn't it a grp5 injected head from '67, or is that too obvious?
have you trawled this site btw?
http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.uk/mk1_index.htm
Andy
isn't it a grp5 injected head from '67, or is that too obvious?
have you trawled this site btw?
http://mk1-performance-conversions.co.uk/mk1_index.htm
Andy
Can't use it anyway - Rule 5.E regarding production based entries, including GT, states -
"Cylinder heads are limited to original number of valves and port configuration".
So unless you have a mathmatical formula that can prove that 5=8 . . .
Well, that was a fun weekend of tail chasing.
Can't use it anyway - Rule 5.E regarding production based entries, including GT, states -
"Cylinder heads are limited to original number of valves and port configuration".
So unless you have a mathmatical formula that can prove that 5=8 . . .
Well, that was a fun weekend of tail chasing.
Chris,
Point to ponder:
Run your current setup in I/GT this year and and then next year stepup to I/MS and run this new head.
Current record:
Engine Entry Name Driver Date Speed
I Hornbrooks Rocinante C. Hornbrook 8/95 150.181
As I said, Point to ponder.
Gregg
Can't use it anyway - Rule 5.E regarding production based entries, including GT, states -
"Cylinder heads are limited to original number of valves and port configuration".
So unless you have a mathmatical formula that can prove that 5=8 . . .
Can't use it anyway - Rule 5.E regarding production based entries, including GT, states -
"Cylinder heads are limited to original number of valves and port configuration".
So unless you have a mathmatical formula that can prove that 5=8 . . .
Midget,
Since UK now uses metric system and US still uses miles, I would argue that since 5 miles ~ equal to 8 kilometers, (1Km is equivalent to 0.6214 miles), so then, 5 is equal to 8 in this instance, then extrapolating because the engine is what the car uses to cover distance, cylinder head an integral part of engine, number of ports would then be in a state of equilibrium in the miles to kilometers conversion continuum. Etc, etc,. . . . .
Happy to oblige!!!
Mathboy
Gregg - that is a good point, and in addition to the better head, Modified Sport would let me aero up the car, at which point I would likely convert it to a Sebring Sprite . . .
http://www.sebringsprite.com/pricelist.html
My guess is that you wouldn't have a problem with conrod to cam clearance with the short stroke crank :evil:
Andy
Trapped between the Hook Norton and Wychwood breweries.. :cheers: (not too near to the Wyre Piddle Brewery)
My guess is that you wouldn't have a problem with conrod to cam clearance with the short stroke crank :evil:
Andy
Trapped between the Hook Norton and Wychwood breweries.. :cheers: (not too near to the Wyre Piddle Brewery)
Oooh - just up the pike from the home of Hobgoblin - Your international beverage cred with Fordboy just increased five fold!
Caution, don't get too specific with your location - you might wind up with a visiting Illinisian.
I think you're right on that account - the rods I had made don't have a lot of extra meat hanging off of their big ends, and the crank has a considerably shorter throw than a 1275.
But I'm thinking if I indeed go this route, I'll be looking to source an A+ block out of a Marina or something.
This recently released secret video of Chris after the last dyno session.
It's such a small car. Think about this option -- You'd think that dropping it out of a (small) plane would not be that much of an investment.
Chris, if you cut the beer budget for a month you can afford that head. Heck, only $7,000.
Ask Mrs. Midget, I'm sure she can skip the rent for a month or two.
My bet is if it says MOWOG on the casting, and on the block and on the tranny you should have a legal part. If it is not made by someone else, it is a factory part and should be good. Read 4.N again then remember you can have a swap in GT, but you don't have to.
Chris, if you cut the beer budget for a month you can afford that head. Heck, only $7,000.
Ask Mrs. Midget, I'm sure she can skip the rent for a month or two.
7K?......... er, that's about 6.5K collectable value innit?
all I know is there'd be a few string-back gloves going backwards and forwards pretty fast over those pictures....... :roll: :roll:
That's the one - I think it uses a tensioner similar to the MGB, and it is an "improvement" - without doubt.
That's the one - I think it uses a tensioner similar to the MGB, and it is an "improvement" - without doubt.
Will be bringing that set up with me to Bonneville in my hand luggage! :-D
Or can send sooner if you wish!
Graham
Well, it's not the engine that's in question, it's the head.
The MOWOG 8 port casting is a race part intended for the A-block and if I'm not mistaken, was granted homologation status with FIA for use in Minis, but was never sold in a car, nor even attached to an engine which came from the factory.
Seeing as I have NOT done an engine swap, it's my reading of the rule that the restriction regarding port configuration in production, the overarching rule category in which GT falls into, prevails.
Now maybe I'm letting the rules have too much influence over my otherwise contrarian existence, and I'll drop an e-mail tonight to the rules folks, but I'm thinking that this is a no-go.
I want to eventually DO an engine swap, and I'll be looking at the MG Rover K-series engine with DOHC's, which, as you point out, is clearly legal in GT. In fact, I think a solid argument could be made for a Coventry Climax engine in this - Jaguar bought Coventry in the early '60's, and they merged with BMC a little later.
There is potential for some interesting options in this thing, and while I'll check out all of those options, for the time being, I'm content to see what this Formula 2 spec A series will pump out.
And Stainless, the first round's on me. :cheers:
I can understand why a K series would be attractive engine to modernise a midget, but I'm a bit suspect about racing one, it might be worth delving deeper into the Rover/MG/Honda catalogue before making that decision. Are you looking for a certain capacity? Would the 4.6L Cobra engine fit :evil:
btw, can you get this over there?
http://www.theakstons.co.uk/Ales/Old-Peculier/
or
http://siba.co.uk/2011/11/hook-norton%E2%80%99s-double-stout-the-best-in-europe/
Did a quick ratebeer.com search:
Hook-Norton's Double Stout was not found & not rated, most likely NOT AVAILABLE here in the US. Too bad, sounds like a winner to me.
Sure sounds easy, doesn't it?
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
You guys get to try any of the Crow Peak yet?!
There were more Corvairs than MGs.
My latest column is up - some observations on the British car community. Some say it's dying - I say it ain't.
http://www.mossmotoring.com/a-bright-road-ahead/
Fordboy - okay, got the sheet. That tentatively looks like an aggressive schedule, but we'll make it happen, and I'll begin preparations tonight.
I think I want to be a Cicerone when I grow up. . . . . . .
I think I want to be a Cicerone when I grow up. . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Midget,
I want to calculate the torque peak based on header pipe diameter, prior to your selecting possibilities for dyno trial.
For the current car header set & other headers that you have, what I need to get started:
1/ Primary pipe O.D. & wall thickness/gauge
2/ Primary pipe centerline length, approximation OK
For attached collectors:
3/ Collector pipe O.D. & wall thickness/gauge
4/ Collector pipe centerline length, approximation OK
I already have the data from the other pipes from Mini Maven.
BTW: I'm predicting your ultra-long rod will pull the torque peak & bhp peak closer together. . . . . . It will be interesting to see how close the results will match-up. . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
:roll:
Dude – you’re kidding me. You couldn’t have asked me this before I took a shower? :|
An hour ago, I was out in the garage mocking up the aforementioned headers and an alternate intake manifold.
I feel like a census taker for William the Conqueror. “The Doomsday Book” gets thicker and thicker.
Bloody Normans and their databases . . .
:cheers:
Okay -- I'll admit to what most think already -- I'm stupid. I can think of a couple reasons why the gauge of the metal might be a factor, but can't pick one. What's it all about, Alfie?
Had me thinking too Stan, OD- (wall thickness x 2) = ID.
It must be a Leyland thing to not just measure the ID ;).
jon
You usually can't measure the ID of a header pipe. You usually have access to only one end, and that end is usually swagged to a flange. Therefore the ID can not be measured accurately. :cheers:
That might be too cold for some of the more flavorful dark beers.... take them out for a while before drinking :cheers:
That might be too cold for some of the more flavorful dark beers.... take them out for a while before drinking :cheers:
indeed http://www.camra.org.uk/beerinthepub (http://www.camra.org.uk/beerinthepub)
Okay, numbers –
Tickets to Van Halen are $279.00 Australian Dollars – the Show is at ANZ Stadium, conversion rate – 286.62 as of 9:16 PM CST. It conflicts with Dark Lord Day at Three Floyds, so that’s one favor we won’t have to bother Rob or Graham about . . .
Pony (Connemara, NOT a Shetland as stated by the seller on E-bay – negative feedback left, thankyouverymuch, horsetrader318) is 13 hands high, but has a nasty disposition, and my feet drag when I try to ride him. Not an option for this year, but I might be able to cut my losses – a broker from IKEA offered me $37.50 per hundred weight on the hoof.
As to the size of the Papal Mitre, I e-mailed Timothy Dolan, but I got an automated response saying he was out of the office.
Of course, the answer was “no”.
That was the answer when I asked the folks at the dyno shop if they had an air flow meter that would work on a Weber DCOE. I thought it gracious that they were able to control their laughter. SO . . . I’m giving a shot at making one that can be attached to their 5” air meter . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5054_zps8ed5ed48.jpg)
It’s air tight when taped, ugly and hopefully functional. We’ll need to support it from above, which should work as they have a hoist apparatus from which I can hang cables/bungees/kite string to.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5055_zpsbd7e4f20.jpg)
This is information I’d really like to get, because it will make tuning for Bonneville a much more exact science than just switching out jets and hoping for the best.
Picked up the ½” plate to build the drive plate from – it’s on its way to the land of taupe subdivisions, just south of the cheddar curtain. Actually, Fordboy’s house isn’t taupe, it’s blue, and stands in rigid defiance of the status quo which defines most of Lake County.
Picked up the ½” plate to build the drive plate from, – it’s on its way SOUTH. . . .
Also picked up the longer flywheel bolts to attach the drive adapter and bought a throttle cable.
Of course, I couldn’t simply check things off of the list – added were –
Secure vibration dampener
Pick up 2 oil filters
Set up ignition box for out-of-body experience . . .
I'm pretty certain this list will get longer before it gets shorter.
Picked up the ½” plate to build the drive plate from – it’s on its way to the land of taupe subdivisions, just south of the cheddar curtain.
Ah, FINALLY! GOTCHA :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
I'm pretty sure I've had this discussion here on the Forum in the past, but I'll give it a go anyhoo:
Fordboy said: "...central daylight savings time..."
No, No, sez Slim the comma cop, there should be NO "s" at the end of "saving". After all, the concept is "saving time" -- a verb, not a noun that can be made plural.
Okay, let the hassles begin.
Jon a/k/a SSS
Whoa . . . Slim just swooped in like he's riding a 258 mph wind gust across the snow packed U.P.Regarding culinary, Websters has it both ways. :wink: I also agree with you about Miss Carpenter. Wayno
Don't feel bad, Fordboy. He once corrected me on the pronunciation of "culinary". :wink:
Karen Carpenter for me - solid drummer, a voice on a par with k.d.lang or Mary Ford, AND she drove a 1962 Chrysler 300 H convertible.
Trifecta, baby!
After all, the concept is "saving time".
Okay, let the hassles begin.
Jon a/k/a SSS
Ah, FINALLY! GOTCHA :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
I'm pretty sure I've had this discussion here on the Forum in the past, but I'll give it a go anyhoo:
Fordboy said: "...central daylight savings time..."
No, No, sez Slim the comma cop, there should be NO "s" at the end of "saving". After all, the concept is "saving time" -- a verb, not a noun that can be made plural.
Okay, let the hassles begin.
Jon a/k/a SSS
Oh, the stuff I could say about the past few comments, but I've gotta go inventory the toilet paper dispensary and maybe also count the nubs remaining on the tires of the Bobcat (skid steer).
YOU spent some TIME in the midwest, I betcha, eh.
There, their, they'reThat's hysterical!
It will be OK
Should be 70 here in Western South Dakota today, I would kill for some snow. We are facing a horrible fire season.
There, their, they'reTime for a poem.
It will be OK
G
Mellowing after a Dragons Milk.
Now back to Dyno Daze.
Geo
"A spoon full of Jameson's makes the math go down. . . . . . ":cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
"A spoon full of Jameson's makes the math go down. . . . . . "
ROSETTA STONE, PART DEUX???
The carb is a different story, though - the tidy new linkage doesn't clear the air box. I'll see if I can't scrounge up the parts that worked at Maxton.
It’s getting mentally draining.
...This is a self-imposed deadline for the dyno session. . . . . . . Dont' make yourself crazy, take a step back and re-evaluate the need for dyno-ing prior to Bennington.... :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
...This is a self-imposed deadline for the dyno session. . . . . . . Dont' make yourself crazy, take a step back and re-evaluate the need for dyno-ing prior to Bennington.... :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Mark, I'm almost certain you meant to say crazier :-D :-D :roll: :roll:
Looks quite functional, do you have a back up can of smoke just in case you have a leak?
Looks quite functional, do you have a back up can of smoke just in case you have a leak?
I have a Lucas sport coil in the trunk of the MGB - a just-in-case replacement for the one attached to the other end of the car, full of NOS smoke. But that would require going back to a Lucas distributor, which is the wrong direction.
Definitely the wrong direction . . .
Down that path lies darkness . . .
Foreboding darkness . . .
Overwhelming darkness . . .
A darkness that makes pitch look festive . . .
A darkness the swallows imploded stars . . .
So, no, we’ll make this work.
Looks quite functional, do you have a back up can of smoke just in case you have a leak?
I have a Lucas sport coil in the trunk of the MGB - a just-in-case replacement for the one attached to the other end of the car, full of NOS smoke. But that would require going back to a Lucas distributor, which is the wrong direction.
Definitely the wrong direction . . .
Down that path lies darkness . . .
Foreboding darkness . . .
Overwhelming darkness . . .
A darkness that makes pitch look festive . . .
A darkness the swallows imploded stars . . .
So, no, we’ll make this work.
Wimp! :wink:
I hate flashlights.
nuff room in there for a 3 litre MOWOG, sissy. :roll:
It’s been a while since I can personally say I’ve made any progress on this project. Yeah, a lot of running around, fact finding, etc., but to have actually done some physical work? Well, that ended today.
Part of what needs to happen to dial in the engine on the dyno is creating some method of transporting the entire brain box and coil packs to the shop so any changes I make with the computer can be locked down.
To that end –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Dynoday/DSCN5063_zpsd9146c38.jpg)
I’m fortunate to work at a place that has large quantities of audio cast-offs back in “the Junk Room” – A chassis, some old connectors – everything needed to recreate the electrical dynamics of an MG.
Yeah, a junk room – which coincidentally also houses the lathe – and I’ve already expressed my opinion on that.
Now to dig up the throttle parts . . .
I see you simplified the design by eliminating the flux capacitor, and adding bulltronium 235 may have caused unwanted radiance.....er something. Now I have a headache :-(
... pulsating DC is routed into the ECU which fools it into producing multiple sparks at the coil packs similar to a MSD setup, but at a frequency of 8000 sparks per second...And... just how useful would these [frequent] "sparks" be, given the small coil saturation times? :? (A coil with that capability could run a single-coil 4-cylinder engine up to 240,000 RPM) :roll:
HEADER SIZING, PART EINS. . . .
So for the jewel @ 15.25 cu. in./cyl. (J Baechtel formulas)
rpm pipe dia. I.D.
5500 1.100
6000 1.149
6500 1.196
7000 1.241
7500 1.284
8000 1.326
8500 1.367
I need some cam card specs from you to calculate the desired/optimum primary pipe length. What I need is the EVO in degrees BBDC. If you can't provide numbers, I can substitute a range, but I hate to guess. . . . . What I want to do is to get both the pipe dia & length to be tuned for the torque peak, enhancing V/E. We can then jack the torque curve with intake tract length, etc, . . . . .
As all the manufacturers freely tell us, "MSD" (multiple spark discharge) only functions up to moderate engine speeds- usually around 3,500 RPM.
Hmmm, curiouser and curiouser. Is it cabin fever or inspired genius.......? :-P
As all the manufacturers freely tell us, "MSD" (multiple spark discharge) only functions up to moderate engine speeds- usually around 3,500 RPM.
It's a d a m n e d wonder that the Bean Bandits were able to even get an engine started
let alone burn the ends off of the plugs unless they were too lean.
Just watch. Next year there will be a line in the rule book that keeps teams from talking that
way about pulsing DC.
That sounds criminal to me.............put your kids in the car trunk when these dudes start talking like that.
FREUD
MORE INTERGALACTIC PRE-MATING RITUALS. . . . AKA, MORE DYNO ADAPTOR PORN!!
OR QUITE POSSIBLY: ROSETTA STONE, PART DEUX???
:cheers: :cheers:
Myrddin Emrys Frankenpolish
Well, at least one more major item knocked off the dyno check list.
Well, at least one more major item knocked off the dyno check list.
Copy that.
Be down in a couple of hours - Grabbing breakfast and I've gotta mail a check to Wiggle Pin - found his addy.
Yeah, baby - we're going to rip that dyno clean off of its moorings . . . :roll:
Chris, it has been 3 birthdays and 150 pages since you started on this motor.... 'bout time to start fishing :-D
HAppy Birthday Chris, x2 what Graham said.
Frank.
Happy Birthday Chris.
Today I have a gallon of a special brew and wish you were here to share it with me.
Oh, by the way, I am scheduled for a colonoscopy tomorrow. :-P
Don
I understand a videographer will be making his way up from the cheeseless plains of the snow covered southern hinterlands, so Wisdonm and Fordboy, clean, non-offensive T-shirts, please . . .
I can just see the article in "GQ" . . .
"Fast Forward Fashion for a Fine Dyno Experience". Ah, alliteration. Your Achilles heel, so to speak. . . . . .
Hell, I should talk - I'll consider myself lucky if I've got clean sox on the 3rd. I will have clean socks by design. . . . .
Well, this was a productive day. Updates to dyno checklist recorded. . . . .
I was able to confirm my last measurements at the dyno shop, and they have extra long ignition wires I can use, so I can set my ignition box close, but not too close. This will be sans my digital analog conversion effort, which I've moved to the back burner - I have enough on my plate, and the ignition I have works fine. Thankfully. . . .
I dropped off a pilot bushing to be turned down at C&S, and Mel didn't run into the back room and hide from me. He'll become more scarce when I pull the engine from the MGB, I'm certain. Updates to dyno checklist recorded. . . . .
All but one of the coolant lines are in place - I need to stop and pick up a section of 9/16 heater hose and some clamps, and that will put that to rights. Updates to dyno checklist recorded. . . . .
Breather vents plumbed. Updates to dyno checklist recorded. . . . .
Fordboy, a question for you. How much fuel do you think we'll need? A 1/2 hour of run-in time and let's say a dozen pulls? See below. . . . .
That's a whole tank of gas!
False economy has a giant set of teeth. . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
False economy has a giant set of teeth. . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
. . . . . . . . . . . . and that's the whole truth!
Pete
Required wear, no?
(http://img1.etsystatic.com/013/0/7629406/il_570xN.415586569_5qma.jpg)
At Bonneville, I think I'm looking at
ERC - A-19A SG .699 117 Motor Method
I'll confirm that and try to find a VP product close. We can do the run in on the old stuff.
Required wear, no?
(http://img1.etsystatic.com/013/0/7629406/il_570xN.415586569_5qma.jpg)
Hydroengineering 101 -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/thethreestoogesaplumbingwewillgo1_zps2bc35eea.jpg)
Advanced learner's class -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Dynoday/DSCN5073_zps9588dc84.jpg)
Hope it doesn't require divine intervention -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/download_zpsf346739d.jpg)
If you want me to be a "Stooge", I want to be "Grumpy" :-D
Fordboy & MM;
Since you two seem to be beer connoisseurs, maybe you can tell me about a beer that I ran into long, long ago (and in a galaxy far, far away) :roll:
While visiting East Berlin on leave in '63, a couple of us US soldiers had lunch in a restaurant just off Karl-Marx Allee. For something a bit different, we ordered a Soviet- made beer but the waiter made a face and said they were out of it. We asked what he would recommend and he suggested a Rumanian beer of some sort. When we looked at the bottles, the labels said it was 18% alcohol....needless to say, we each didn't drink more than one-- we were in the East Zone, after all.
My question is, do you know what that beer might have been? I can report that it was good.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Header flog. . . . . .
Midget,
Pics of various headers for dyno flog, courtesy of Northern Illinois Mini Maven. . . . . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2508_zpsd6157c9d.jpg)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2509_zps5be5d60e.jpg)
I'm thinking this will be the best bhp producer This is the line-up Sgt. Friday. . . . . .
We will probably need some tail pipe to add on to your system and/or these. . . . . .or to beat a confession out of this little gem. . . . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Officer Smith
Fordboy & MM;
Since you two seem to be beer connoisseurs, maybe you can tell me about a beer that I ran into long, long ago (and in a galaxy far, far away) :roll:
While visiting East Berlin on leave in '63, a couple of us US soldiers had lunch in a restaurant just off Karl-Marx Allee. For something a bit different, we ordered a Soviet- made beer but the waiter made a face and said they were out of it. We asked what he would recommend and he suggested a Rumanian beer of some sort. When we looked at the bottles, the labels said it was 18% alcohol....needless to say, we each didn't drink more than one-- we were in the East Zone, after all.
My question is, do you know what that beer might have been? I can report that it was good.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Header flog. . . . . .
Midget,
Pics of various headers for dyno flog, courtesy of Northern Illinois Mini Maven. . . . . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2508_zpsd6157c9d.jpg)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2509_zps5be5d60e.jpg)
I'm thinking this will be the best bhp producer This is the line-up Sgt. Friday. . . . . .
We will probably need some tail pipe to add on to your system and/or these. . . . . .or to beat a confession out of this little gem. . . . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Officer Smith
While the results won't be exact to what I'll have to get to accomodate the Midget chassis, at least I'll know what lengths I'll need to shop for.
I'd bet Dick of Dave could weld up a set once we've determined which lengths work best.
Ahh yes...Mistress of the Dark, "putting the boob back into the boob tube".
Fordboy & MM;
Since you two seem to be beer connoisseurs, maybe you can tell me about a beer that I ran into long, long ago (and in a galaxy far, far away) :roll:
While visiting East Berlin on leave in '63, a couple of us US soldiers had lunch in a restaurant just off Karl-Marx Allee. For something a bit different, we ordered a Soviet- made beer but the waiter made a face and said they were out of it. We asked what he would recommend and he suggested a Rumanian beer of some sort. When we looked at the bottles, the labels said it was 18% alcohol....needless to say, we each didn't drink more than one-- we were in the East Zone, after all.
My question is, do you know what that beer might have been? I can report that it was good.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Neil, I recall a very high alcohol Romanian beer I had at Club 400 in Waukesha when I was still at school at the UW-Waukesha campus -
http://www.club400waukesha.com/indexe3cd.html?websiteid=7357
They used to have the largest variety of bottled imports in SE Wisconsin.
Do I remember the name?
I don't even remember getting back to my apartment!
Club 400 used to have an arrangement where you would have a card on file at the bar. You would go in and order an import, they would take your card, and for every different import, they would punch a hole through the name of it. Once the card was full, you'd get a T-shirt.
I never got a T-shirt, but the card looked like Swiss Cheese before I moved to Milwaukee.
All this elaborate preparation to get the Midget's motor on the dyno - - sure makes us bike guys appreciate the simplicity of the bike dyno!
Tom
If it blows, we all owe chris a beer.......
If it blows, we all owe chris a beer.......
Let's see if I can get it that far . . .
Picked up a pail of C14 this morning for Wednesday, along with filters and oil. updates to dyno checklist recorded
The progress is actually good, despite a pair of minor setbacks – one of which will require me finding a hardware store open on Easter Sunday . . . kind of like a monkey bite. . (sure hope that monkey doesn't have a virus. . . :-o)
The pilot bushing is done, and it fits perfectly – a couple of taps with the ol’ rubber hammer and bingo . . . nothin' quite as satisfying as thinkin' ahead. . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5074_zps2b20a0e3.jpg)
The drive adapter fits like some flatlander CUSTOM DESIGNED IT! hmmm, that thinkin' ahead thing again. . . . . The problem is that the bolts I acquired for it are a smidgen too long – I thought the flywheel was tapped all the way through – not the case – so it’s off to whoever is open tomorrow.
I took my handy 4 ounce syringe and filled the oil galleries, poured some oil down through the lifters and finished the fill through the distributor hole. I then loosened up the rockers, removed the plugs and gave it a crank with the drill. Yeah, oil is flowing where it should be, so I went back to readjust the lifters and . . . snap! Now this was just one of those, “oh, for pity’s sake” moments . . . Yes, unforseen consequences from small items. . . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5075_zpsf9f020e9.jpg)
Fortunately, after the valve train tried to munch itself last September, I ordered up a complete set of adjusters, so I was able to dig out one of the spares, which for reasons completely out of character with my normal MO, were neatly tagged and bagged right where I had put them, and where I remembered I had put them. isn't it nice to have good luck for a change??
But how was I going to get it out without removing the rocker shaft, which is held in place with head studs?
Well, after watching Fordboy use his ultra slick valve spring compressor last year, I went on E-bay and hunted down one for myself. With a little adjustment, I was able to compress the valve side of the rocker and not even have to remove the shaft . . . clever boy, have you been hanging out with the smart kids again??
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5076_zpscdb455c1.jpg)
The only thing better than having the right tool for the right job is having the wrong tool, but it works anyway. it's called creative development. . . . .
6/ The corrected Bhp is 95 bhp or better.
QR, FB's one step ahead of you. He's setting up spread sheets for each run with notes.
Expect a HUGE INFO DUMP on this build diary before next weekend. :wink:
Midget, et all,
Well, now the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. My plan was to surprise all the followers of your build diary with an improptu "How to Dyno your Engine" session, using the dyno info, the relational database spreadsheets and some analysis. Sort of a parable (fable??) consisting of: This is where we started and this is how (and more importantly, why) we got to where we ended up. The idea was to outline how good engineering coupled with good planning and project management could positively impact a task of this nature. The naked and unvarnished truth, the emporer without clothes, as such. Sort of a "Benefit from our knowledge or stupidity" whichever the case may be. Hopefully more of the former and less or none of the latter.
I can't find my 11mm combination wrench.
I’ve set up the motor mounts so we can just bolt up - a couple of 3/8 or 5/16 bolts will get that done, and we won't have to drill anything on campus - but I am bringing along the drill, just in case.
Monday will require a quick trip to the hardware store to acquire one last pipe reducer for water, and 6 properly sized bolts for the drive adapter.
I found my collector pipe, but it turns out that it's 1 7/8" rather than 2", so I'll be doing a bit of a scramble on that.
I cut some washers in half to step the header/manifold bolts - should be able to get it all close enough.
The following is packed -
Tool box
Bungees for air box support
Spare spark plugs
Valve spring compressor, magnetic probe, extra valve spring shims, valve springs and forceps
Pipe expander
Torque wrench, wrenches, screw drivers, Allen wrenches, all my spare carby parts, fire extinguisher, extra studs and fasteners, extra manifold gaskets (2)
Colortune, timing light, feeler gauges, air adapter for spark plug hole to change out valve springs
Computer w/ spare power supply, spare battery and connection cable
Just a heads up - I can't find my 11mm combination wrench. :|
:oops:
I want to keep this as honest as possible, so the mistakes are also documented.
I screwed up -
Stripped out a thread on the flywheel.
Pulled it, met Fordboy at the Brat Stop - he's on Helicoil duty.
Again, thanks Mark.
I really didn't need this tonight.
More to follow - we'll get through this - just keep the wrenches out of my big, clumsy hands.
Pulled the exhaust - we'll be cutting it up for testing.
Grabbing Sawzall.
Last water fitting in place.
Schedule remains intact, but jeez, I thought I was doing this to AVOID a last minute thrash . . .
Radio silence likely from Beerhaven until Wednesday PM.
Captain Chrispy, out.
This thread isn't only technically interesting, it's also highly entertaining.
This thread isn't only technically interesting, it's also highly entertaining.
With all the elements of a Greek tragedy – including getting bumped by the Dyno Shop.
A day of vacation burned for nothing.
Rescheduled for 4/17.
Take this to your employer, forget annual leave, get a medical.............
To Whom it may Concern
I have today examined a Mister Christopher Conrad of Beerhaven. He has been diagnosed with Salt Fever and will be unable to attend his place of work on the 17th of April as he will be receiving intensive therapy. I will also take this ooportunity to flag the possibility that Mr Conrad will to be admitted to our Utah treatment facility in the early weeks of September for further extensive treatment depending on his responsiveness to the forthcoming course.
Thank You
Dr Goggles
What I find particularly irksome about all of this is that when I wanted to set an appointment 4 weeks ago, they didn’t want to schedule that far out. So early last week, I stop by, nailed down the date, and today - the day before – after a solid week of working diligently to be ready to be in and out of their facility in a professional and timely basis, I’m told they’re backed up on their dyno?
I guess it’s the lack of respect for someone else’s time I find so difficult to swallow.
It’s a two man shop – fecal matter occurs – I get it. But this crap has been going on since the day I ordered up my wheels,
and my rockers,
and my crank,
and my rods,
and my flywheel . . .
my wheels,
and my rockers,
and my crank,
and my rods,
and my flywheel . . .
Chris--I have both your Pith Helmet and your 11mm combination wrench....
Since dyno day was postponed, I got in some drinking time. This lead me to imagine we were at dyno day. We don't have to go on the 17th because I saw, in my minds eye, the dyno reading 93hp. This should save time, effort, and treasure.
"The Kimber Festival brings together enthusiasts who are keenly interested in M.G. history"
It isn't about firearms?
Oh great knower of all things . . .
Dark Lord day is April 27th . . . You gonna score some?
To the unwashed and unknowing: Dark Lord Day is the only day of the year to buy Three Floyds Dark Lord Russian Imperial Stout.
So who am I asking this question?
He goes by:
MB
Fordboy
F/B
Reytard
. . .
When?
I got this one Stan....
YES :-D
:cheers:
Oh great knower of all things . . .
Dark Lord day is April 27th . . . You gonna score some?
To the unwashed and unknowing: Dark Lord Day is the only day of the year to buy Three Floyds Dark Lord Russian Imperial Stout.
Oh, yeah -
I'm scheduled at T and T in Gurnee, Illinois for the 17th of April.
http://tntracingengines.com/
Or were you asking when I was going to let this one pass? :wink:
Oh, yeah -
I'm scheduled at T and T in Gurnee, Illinois for the 17th of April.
http://tntracingengines.com/
Or were you asking when I was going to let this one pass? :wink:
Do they have the same 5" digital cfm sensor? Did not see that one on their webpage.
Oh, yeah -
I'm scheduled at T and T in Gurnee, Illinois for the 17th of April.
http://tntracingengines.com/
Or were you asking when I was going to let this one pass? :wink:
Do they have the same 5" digital cfm sensor? Did not see that one on their webpage.
Yup. Go to "Facility" tab, and you'll see it.
I was just trying to figure out how we'll hang it from the Weber.
Oh, yeah -
I'm scheduled at T and T in Gurnee, Illinois for the 17th of April.
http://tntracingengines.com/
Or were you asking when I was going to let this one pass? :wink:
Do they have the same 5" digital cfm sensor? Did not see that one on their webpage.
Yup. Go to "Facility" tab, and you'll see it.
I was just trying to figure out how we'll hang it from the Weber.
Now blue, as opposed to aluminum?
Additional T & T notes. . . . .
You MAY need to lengthen your B+/B- power source wiring for your ECU. Their battery is about 3' to the rear of the engine mounting frame. ECU could be put on a rolling shop cart, rather than mounted on anything.
Make sure Alfred has your Bat-tool belt fully supplied, for any eventuality. . . . . . . .
They seem to have a fair pile of bits & gizmos that may help out with this "mating". . . . . . . .
MM
Happy pre-Birthday!! BTW, 53 is a prime number, something to consider for your celebration. 8-) :-P
Use your knowledge wisely. . . . . . . . . . :? :-o
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
F/B
P.S. DON'T use ANY of MY oxygen. . . . . . . . . . .
... A '62 Chrysler 300 - wouldn't even have to be a letter series...??? All Chrysler 300 cars 1955-1965 were "letter series" ('A' was implied in '55; '62 was 'H').
.....like Broderick Crawford's wallowing '55 in Highway Patrol. :-)
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
... A '62 Chrysler 300 - wouldn't even have to be a letter series...??? All Chrysler 300 cars 1955-1965 were "letter series" ('A' was implied in '55; '62 was 'H').
Working on adaptor for cable throttle. Will post pics later today.While the cat's away the mice will, . . . . are busy working on more dyno adaptors! Part Deux. . . . .
:cheers:
Mickey Mouse (RIP Annette. . . . .)
As promised, pictured below:
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2524_zps32b20d55.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2524_zps32b20d55.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2525_zps7e562258.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2525_zps7e562258.jpg.html)
Gosh, I was expecting variegated padauk, teak and maple, but I suppose metal will do . . .
It IS easier to weld . . .
So - will it be back from the chrome shop by 8? :wink:
Okay - sincerely, THANK YOU.
I called and verified our appointment for Wednesday - there is no other engine on the dyno, so we should be able to plug and play.
The car is loaded, the alarm and coffee maker are set, Wisdonm is going to be by early, and all I have to do is stop at a truck stop and pick up fuses for the ignition.
Reports to follow - and by the way, Cecil Kimber's 125th birthday celebration in Bennington was ubercool. More on that when I get some time.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/knudsen%20pics/DSCN5100_zps8f7e7925.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/knudsen%20pics/DSCN5100_zps8f7e7925.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/knudsen%20pics/DSCN5104_zpsc814abcd.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/knudsen%20pics/DSCN5104_zpsc814abcd.jpg.html)
Gosh, I was expecting variegated padauk, teak and maple, but I suppose metal will do . . .
It IS easier to weld . . .
It’ll all be fine – it just won’t be fine today . . .
First, a disclaimer:
NO LUCAS PARTS WERE INVOLVED IN THIS ABORTED ATTEMPT. NO MIDGETS WERE HARMED DURING TODAY’S EVENTS, AND NO SMOKE WAS RELEASED FROM THE WIRES.
In preparation for today, the entire electrical system needed to be removed from the car. There is no distributor – it’s an Electromotive crank trigger system.
Contrary to previous posts by myself, no modifications to the system were involved, and to my great shame, I must add that the idea of a peizo-digital/analog converter was really rather stupid, and a path that I neither attempted, nor will pursue. In fact, the ECU and ignition packs were simply removed from the car, and a new harness was purchased and installed on a test box for the sole purpose of this session.
The problems that occurred were as follows –
The data cable from the computer to the ECU got warm. I don’t think that’s supposed to happen, but it did not bode well for the rest of the attempt. A careful testing of the ECU data port indicated 4 of the computer port pin-outs were showing 12 volts DC. Again, I don’t KNOW, but I don’t THINK that’s supposed to be the case.
A call to electromotive indicated that they did not know why a data cable would get warm, but they did help me address an oversight on my part. While I did have power going to the coil packs, I did NOT have power going to the ECU. I had brought my soldering iron for just such an oversight, and repaired the problem.
Further investigation discovered that I had set up the multi pin plug to the coil packs for the wrong half of an 8 cylinder engine. There are pins for two sets of coil packs for a V-8 installation, and I had set up the pins on the cabling to the ECU on the side of the nonexistent signals that the chip in the ECU may or may not have etched into its RAM. The cabling was remedied with Don’s faithful and patient assistance.
Either through my error or through a faulty ECU, the unit would not fire up and blew fuses.
So tonight, I’ll tear into my half of the voodoo box, and prepare the Electromotive unit for shipping and testing.
Mark and Don were absolute champs. While I stumbled with the electrical, along with Tom, the owner in assistance, they had the engine rolled up, bolted up, linkaged and plumbed by about 9:15. That part of the plan went off without a hitch, due in large part to Mark’s design work, Don's intuitive mechanical ability, and “Wigglepin’s” excellent machine work. Having done a dry run today, I expect it will go a little quicker next time.
So, that’s that.
Photos courtesy of Wisdonm –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Dynoday/Image0692x8_zpsd1fe11a0.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Dynoday/Image0692x8_zpsd1fe11a0.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Dynoday/Image0691x8_zps23482fa7.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Dynoday/Image0691x8_zps23482fa7.jpg.html)
Mark, thanks, and I’ve no doubt that in that pile-o-parts something could be hatched that would serve as a backup system. But I’m committed to making the Electromotive system work, and that will likely include running without an ignition back-up plan.
The engine set-up was largely based on the capabilities of this system. To put into place a fallback position of this nature, even as an emergency back-up to complete system failure on the salt, holds more potential for frustration than it does possibilities for success.
If the Electromotive kit fails on the salt, I’ll either fix it, try to borrow a piece, or put it back on the trailer.
Maybe this makes me a wimp, but I don’t see myself doing a wholesale ignition swap-out on the salt.
But brother, thanks for looking into it.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN5117_zps43c50abb.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN5117_zps43c50abb.jpg.html)
Chris,
REALLY like your Gnome mascot laying in the bonnet although he could be the one causing your problems when you are not looking. :-D
" Hooking up the GROUND WIRE that I had inadvertently terminated to HOT and taking a trip to Solder City, the lights came on"
That sounds right (English , remember) Don't the poms still wire things backwards ?
Tiny
Well, it appears my old friend “Dumb Luck” might have been in attendance last Wednesday.
After reviewing the wiring, pulling all non essential leads (MAP sensors are of no concern on a DCOE), hooking up the GROUND WIRE that I had inadvertently terminated to HOT and taking a trip to Solder City, the lights came on!
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN5116_zpscbb0ba01.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN5116_zpscbb0ba01.jpg.html)
It’s been my experience that if an electronic appliance will fire up, it’s usually not terminal. Nevertheless, the entire unit will be winging its way to Manassas for a complete bench check in the capable hands of an Electromotive tech before I drag this back to Gurnee.
I really want to keep this diary honest, but it is my intention to post up a success or two, sooner than later.
Hey, I remember those Hartwells! Look great!
Chris,
Sending it back to the mfg is a pretty good idea, power to the ground leg is asking for trouble. When it comes to electronic anything on a car the ground connection is probably the most important. I would suggest a separate wire from the ground connection back to the battery ground plus additional ground wires to the engine block and anything else that is handy. You just can't have enough grounds, as long as they are all referenced to the battery ground.
Rex
See you in a couple of months- I'm not a big beer drinker, but if there is something you like from one of our Colorado breweries, I'll bring it with me. :-D
I am sure I have crossed mountainbike paths with him after being in the industry so long.
Have Buddy bring you some cans of Dales Pale Ale and Old Chub!! :cheers:
Scotch Ale's for punters, mate.
Dale's sounds intriguing - hops and more hops - just perfect after a hot, dry day of racing and/or swearing at a Midget.
The Sprecher Special Amber Vienna Style Lager comes in cans - I'm thinking that and Ol' Speckled Hen, along with the mead we whipped up, some Templeton Rye and Kate's requisite Hendrick's and Tonic will be the beverages of choice under the portable pygmy pop-up. And whatever Fordboy puts in a request for.
Hmmmm . . . Fordboy . . . Probably going to have to bring the large cooler . . .
And whatever Fordboy puts in a request for.
Hmmmm . . . Fordboy . . . Probably going to have to bring the large cooler . . .
And whatever Fordboy puts in a request for.
Hmmmm . . . Fordboy . . . Probably going to have to bring the large cooler . . .
Midget,
Yes, the large cooler is probably a good idea. Not necessarily on my account though. . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . etc, etc
Fordboy
And whatever Fordboy puts in a request for.
Hmmmm . . . Fordboy . . . Probably going to have to bring the large cooler . . .
Midget,
Yes, the large cooler is probably a good idea. Not necessarily on my account though. . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . etc, etc
Fordboy
Quality is good :cheers:
but quality in quantity is really good :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
And whatever Fordboy puts in a request for.
Hmmmm . . . Fordboy . . . Probably going to have to bring the large cooler . . .
Midget,
Yes, the large cooler is probably a good idea. Not necessarily on my account though. . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . etc, etc
Fordboy
Quality is good :cheers:
but quality in quantity is really good :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I'll bring both. Save me a couple for after my runs - please . . .
Let's see, 7 miles at a max of 22mph, would be about 20 minutes consumption time. . . AND, it's SURE to be HOT. . . . . hmmmm. . . . . better be speedy.
QuoteLet's see, 7 miles at a max of 22mph, would be about 20 minutes consumption time. . . AND, it's SURE to be HOT. . . . . hmmmm. . . . . better be speedy.
That's old news. I heard rumors of big improvements this year. What's the latest plan? :-D
Geo
Unh, sure, as long as you (the guy that's starting this fund-raiser) make some kind of stipulation like "All multipliers must be two-digit whole integers or greater". Thanks, Chris.Integers are already whole. :-D :cheers: Wayno
And you're cruising around in the "High on Crackmobile" if you think the 18th of May is on Thursday. :-D :-o :? :cheers: Wayno
Chris, a quick comment about your A and B info above....
A. Having a bigger bore is something to be proud of.... :-D
B. Having a shorter stroke.... not so much :roll:
Good luck on the dyno
G'day- put me in for $1.00 per hp as well. I have gained so much knowledge (and pure damm enjoyment) from this site that a hundred odd bucks is still very good value.I agree with what Denis said, such a knowledgeable and fun site! It's really not hard to learn quite a bit here. :cheers:
Denis
Chris, a quick comment about your A and B info above....
A. Having a bigger bore is something to be proud of.... :-D
B. Having a shorter stroke.... not so much :roll:
Good luck on the dyno
put me down for $ 10.00 per Hp over 93 hp
Pewaukee to MM is about 18 miles at the closest point, but Pewaukee covers a lot of area. I'm about 6 miles away.
Good luck today guys!
101 @ 7800 ! :-P
Midget,
I hate to make predictions, it is too easy to get bitten in the a**, by a monkey or crocodile. . . . . . but, here goes. . . . . . .
I'd be satisfied by the dyno session if:
1/ It stays together,
2/ No additional problems are discovered,
3/ We get all the testing we want to do finished,
4/ The BMEP is 190 psi or better,
5/ The corrected TQ is 76 lb/ft or better,
6/ The corrected Bhp is 95 bhp or better.
I know this is a long list, but as usual, I'm thinking long term.
:cheers:
Fordboy
ARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DATA!!!! WE WANT DATA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I DIDN'T READ 169 PAGES OF THIS CLAP TRAP TO WAIT UNTIL TOMORROW!
Congrats! :cheers: 88.2 hp!!
did you rev it any higher? it looks like it's taking a rest before laying down a big number at 10K :-D
10 PSI per 1000 RPM's is Mellings recommendation. You are pretty close now.
What would a "stock" 996 produce?
Chris,
Backing off on the oil pressure by 20-30 psi will not get you much HP increase. The formula for the hp to drive an oil pump is: HP= (GPM)x(Pressure)/(1714)x(pump efficiency) so if your pump is 10 gpm and your pump is 65% eff. which is pretty typical for a gear pump then the HP to drive it at 90 psi is: .8 horse power and going to 60 psi is .54 hp so you are only gaining about .25 hp. Going to a thinner oil from the pumps stand point will reduce the pump efficiency and increase the oil temp. From this you can see that pump efficiency is pretty important and with a gear pump that efficiency is pretty much determined by the amount of "slippage" that the pump has, that is the amount of oil that leaks from the high pressure side of the pump back to the low pressure side ( pump inlet). If the pump efficiency drops below 50% i.e. the outlet flow is less than the internal leakage then it is on its way to self destruction. As the amount of pump slippage is proportional the pressure (it is not a linear proportional rate) going to a lower pressure may increase your pump efficiency which is good so you may pick up more than my estimated .25 hp but not much.
Congrats on the dyno pulls but I am also waiting for your final pulls before I write the check.
Rex
Hi Chris :)
I don't like to correct you, but the metro pump only supplied the engine, just as in the mini.
I forget now, what size venturi do you run?
How does the altitude at Bonneville change the venturi requirement?
Kemo Sabe,Mark,
Whilst out on the range, set fer a spell at T&T. Observed & measured the following cold valve lash dimensions:
1E .024"
1I .022"
2I .025"
2E .023"
3E .023"
3I .022"
4I .022"
4E .023" These numbers certainly seem to be acceptable given the higher spring pressure and the number of pulls.
:cheers:
Tonto
P.S. STILL searching for the jug of the better "Firewater". . . . . .
Mark,
1E .024"
1I .022"
2I .025"
2E .023"
3E .023"
3I .022"
4I .022"
4E .023"
P.S. STILL searching for the jug of the better "Firewater". . . . . .
I find those lash settings high. My BSA 500 single specifies .010" even with the race cam. Seems like there would be a whole lot of clacking and banging going on. But then, it is British!
Tom
Also: took some manifold measurements from the cylinder head. Going to try to come up with a better head/manifold match.
Inlet port @ head face, 37mm dia., 134.5mm C/C spacing.
Steel manifold @ head face, 34mm dia.
Aluminum manifold @ head face, 32mm dia. There are some issues @ the carb face on both manifolds as well.
Unless you are using some super duper oil i haven't heard of, .025 still sounds a bit loose and can definitely hammer the valvetrain way up there in the rpm range. I can see that clearance on exhaust due to heat expansion, but taking them to .015-.017 ought to help all around the power band.
Also: took some manifold measurements from the cylinder head. Going to try to come up with a better head/manifold match.
Inlet port @ head face, 37mm dia., 134.5mm C/C spacing.
Steel manifold @ head face, 34mm dia.
Aluminum manifold @ head face, 32mm dia. There are some issues @ the carb face on both manifolds as well.
Custom match ported intake an option? I wouldn't think it would be too hard to get some flanges made, and tubing cut.... :evil:
... Lash settings are determined by:Finally- a breath of fresh (knowledgeable) air in here...
1/ Height of the clearance ramp ground into the cam blank...
... Lash settings are determined by:Finally- a breath of fresh (knowledgable) air in here...
1/ Height of the clearance ramp ground into the cam blank...
Rebuilding/modifying your 45DCOE & the 48DCO I've loaned you.
Found the problem with the 45's accelerator pump circuit, you took a silver (solder) bullet in the foot . . . . . you need some practice with that shootin' (soldering) iron. . . .
Will post pics later for a Weber on-line build diary tutorial . . . . . . These changes should solve the problem with the 45DCOE carb.
Rebuilding/modifying your 45DCOE & the 48DCO I've loaned you.
Found the problem with the 45's accelerator pump circuit, you took a silver (solder) bullet in the foot . . . . . you need some practice with that shootin' (soldering) iron. . . .
Will post pics later for a Weber on-line build diary tutorial . . . . . . These changes should solve the problem with the 45DCOE carb.
:? I recall a looooong time ago talking to Chris about blocking this off to increase pump shot volume, I guess the hole was not blocked off?
Or did I add to your woes! :oops:
Look forward to a Weber tutorial Kemo Sabe-Boy style :mrgreen:
Rebuilding/modifying your 45DCOE & the 48DCO I've loaned you.
Found the problem with the 45's accelerator pump circuit, you took a silver (solder) bullet in the foot . . . . . you need some practice with that shootin' (soldering) iron. . . .
Will post pics later for a Weber on-line build diary tutorial . . . . . . These changes should solve the problem with the 45DCOE carb.
:? I recall a looooong time ago talking to Chris about blocking this off to increase pump shot volume, I guess the hole was not blocked off?
Or did I add to your woes! :oops:
Look forward to a Weber tutorial Kemo Sabe-Boy style :mrgreen:
Graham, it's really quite simple -
I soldered up the wrong hole.
Fordboy - you have the parts - if you can find the time, can you shoot a pic of which hole I filled, and which one I was SUPPOSED to solder up?
As always, I want to document the goof-ups AND the successes.
And sometimes, the prefix of SUCCESS is SUCKS . . . :cheers:
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2609_zps2ad05a5e.jpg)[/URL]
various sizes of "bleedback" valves 00 to 100 "inlet" end of the same valves
You will notice that one of the valves has been filled with electrical solder, probably in an attempt to "keep the smoke inside". . . . . . . . . . .
As a public service, IF, you are ever in desperate need of more "pump shot" on your Weber, and you can not beg, borrow or steal a proper jet, the hole to solder up is the "bleedback" hole on the side of the jet, NOT THE INLET HOLE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE JET. (Very bad, doesn't help anything, makes carb much worse. . . .) I suppose you could solder it up and redrill a smaller opening with a Weber jet drill set, but I just change the parts, less confusing in the long run.
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2609_zps2ad05a5e.jpg)[/URL]
various sizes of "bleedback" valves 00 to 100 "inlet" end of the same valves
You will notice that one of the valves has been filled with electrical solder, probably in an attempt to "keep the smoke inside". . . . . . . . . . .
As a public service, IF, you are ever in desperate need of more "pump shot" on your Weber, and you can not beg, borrow or steal a proper jet, the hole to solder up is the "bleedback" hole on the side of the jet, NOT THE INLET HOLE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE JET. (Very bad, doesn't help anything, makes carb much worse. . . .) I suppose you could solder it up and redrill a smaller opening with a Weber jet drill set, but I just change the parts, less confusing in the long run.
From the movie, "Casablanca" . . .
Renault: And what in heaven's name brought you to Casablanca?
Rick: My health. I came to Casablanca for the waters.
Renault: The waters? What waters? We're in the desert.
Rick: I was misinformed. :|
After confirming the part, I removed the “carby” and soldered up the jet.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN4464.jpg)
How to Modify your Weber Carburetor properly OR
Weber Carburetor Porn!!!! OR
How to turn your expensive Italian/Spanish engine bit into an undriveable piece of crap . . . . Part two . . . . (yes, this will be a multi-step tutorial . . . . )
You guys are the best - Thanks!
CONFIRMED - May 28, for those of you who wanted to wait.
I intend to extract HORSES and DOLLARS. :wink:
Combining four carbs into two mostly good ones it is good to drive on the special day. BTW these were set up by a carb expert a couple of years ago. Never trust anyone. Always check all work done. Including mine. :cheers:
Geo
Midget,
Ground control to major Tom
Ground control to major Tom
Take your protein pills and put your helmet on
(Ten) Ground control (Nine) to major Tom (Eight)
(Seven, six) Commencing countdown (Five), engines on (Four)
(Three, two) Check ignition (One) and may the electric gods (Blastoff) be with you. . . . . . . :-o (sic)
We'll see if you make the grade in a few hours. . . . . . . :roll:
T minus 3:47 and counting. . . . . . . :-D
Astroboy
How to Modify your Weber Carburetor properly OR
Weber Carburetor Porn!!!! OR
How to turn your expensive Italian/Spanish engine bit into an undriveable piece of crap . . . . Part three . . . . (yes, this will be a multi-step tutorial . . . .)
Although these modifications will be specifically for Weber Carbs, the concepts behind the ideas will work for most throttle shaft carburetors that utilize fixed venturies ("chokes")and fixed boosters ("aux venturies").
I shouldn't have to say this, BUT, if your carb is not clean and in PERFECT working order, deal with that beforehand. Buy a rebuild/tuning manual SPECIFICALLY for your carb, as I am not going to cover basic rebuilding/installation/synchronization/vacuum leaks/linkage. LOTS of time is wasted trying to tune Weber carbs that need to be rebuilt. DO NOT waste your time on an old, used Weber! Just clean and rebuild it first. Replace any/all worn and/or questionable parts. If you can't tell if the part needs to be replaced, you should not be rebuilding the carb! Take/send the carb to a Weber specialist, it's cheaper in the long run.
Before starting, a disclaimer:
Carb modification, especially Weber carb modification, should not be undertaken lightly. Weber parts are expensive, often difficult to obtain, AND, easily turned into junk by the enthusiastic, unwary, would be tuner. The best method is to amass a large pile of GENUINE Weber parts to start with, AND, have access to a flow bench LARGE ENOUGH TO FLOW CARBURETORS, to verify your work/"improvements". Caveat emptor.
So Ya Wanna "Fix/Improve" Your Weber Carburetor?
What you need to get started.
Below are a couple of photos of a flowbench adaptor I constructed to flow Weber carbs, one side at a time. This particular adaptor is designed for Weber DCOE/DCO side drafts. You will need to adapt to your carb in a similar fashion. This adaptor is constructed from MDF (medium density fiberboard) and sealed with 2 coats of polyurethane varnish. Before anybody comments about wood Vs. metal adaptors, you need to realize that your Superflow flowbench is made from plywood, covered with laminate material and sealed with silicone caulk. Effective, non-leaking adaptors can be made out of various substances, say beryllium or platinum if you have enough time and cash. Wood/plywood/MDF works great, is easy to shape and doesn't leak when sealed. You just need to check for leakage after you fabricate them and resolve any leaks you find. This adaptor had zero leakage.
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2614_zps765eca7b.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2614_zps765eca7b.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2615_zps171feb1b.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2615_zps171feb1b.jpg.html)
6.5"/7" squares provide enough material for the S/flow 5" square bolt pattern extra height provides room for throttle lever actuation & better simulates a manifold.
The mounting studs are drilled & tapped into the MDF and sealed. This adaptor has a 45mm "manifold" opening to match the throttle plates of this size carb. You need a flow bench that will draw approximately 300 cfm @ 28" inches of water for 45 Webers, one side at a time. Flowing one side at a time doubles the flowbench time to flow a 2 barrel carb, but you can be aware of any differences in flow, from one side to the other . . . . . . and take the time to find out why and correct the problem.
Flowing both barrels together or larger carbs requires a flowbench with a higher flow capability. Flowing 4 barrel carbs requires a REALLY big bench, AND, they still test at reduced pressures.
That's enough to get you started. Put on your thinking caps and start makin' chips . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
with something from this array of bits?Where's the nitro can?
2 carbs, 3 manifolds, etc, etc,...
with something from this array of bits?Where's the nitro can?
2 carbs, 3 manifolds, etc, etc,...
Chris,
We're pulling for you and hope the little motor pulls for you too. :cheers:
Can't wait for results, Don
I'd love to hear that Lil Grenade singing at 8300.
Superb! :cheers:
1.5hp pre cubic inch carbureted NA with the original cast head, got to be happy with that.
25 Dyno pulls in a day with not one mention of dramas, got to be wrapt with that.
You have the hp and reliability proven, good luck on the salt.
Congratulations.
jon
I'd love to hear that Lil Grenade singing at 8300..... Any video?
1.5hp pre cubic inch carbureted NA with the original cast head and a nice broad power curve, got to be happy with that.
25 Dyno pulls in a day with not one mention of dramas, got to be wrapt with that.
You have the hp and reliability proven, good luck on the salt.
Congratulations.
jon
How to Modify your Weber Carburetor properly ORHow to Modify your Weber Carburetor properly OR
Weber Carburetor Porn!!!! OR
How to turn your expensive Italian/Spanish engine bit into an undriveable piece of crap . . . . Part three . . . . (yes, this will be a multi-step tutorial . . . .)
Major Tom, et all,
As promised, Weber flow testing, with adaptor, in situ . . . . . Superflow 1020 Flowbench in action
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/Photo0559_zpsaeb02212.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/Photo0559_zpsaeb02212.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/Photo0558_zpsff770863.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/Photo0558_zpsff770863.jpg.html)
Slow but sure, one side at a time . . . . . . . .
Unmodified carb @ start 240 cfm/side
Modified carb @ finish 270 cfm/side 12.5% flow gain & retained signal strength @ aux venturi (booster)
Will give a rundown on each modification and the flow gain for each, with pictures of the before & after of the parts, after the dyno session. This was a Spanish made Weber, so some of the gains were large compared to an Italian made Weber. The Spanish castings are not as nicely finished as the older Italian made parts. That's a "World Economy" in action . . . .
I want them to flow like an Atlas rocket . . . . . .
:cheers:
Astroboy
This is probably too late to be any help, but there *might* be some power to be had by switching the inlet bells on the carb to something like Prof Gordon Blair's "Best Bell" http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf (http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf)
OK.
I am flat broke, in fact I am borderline solvent with an uncertain outlook, but that's another story.....
This site has provided immense entertainment and useful information for us over the years and that is without mentioning the friendships my friends here and I have made. It's a drop in centre for the hare-brained thrill seekers and an in-joke fest for the OCD hard heads that most here are.
$1 per horse, plus fifty if you break it, even if I have to steal it. :roll:
There , that should just about tip the scales to 50%.
This is probably too late to be any help, but there *might* be some power to be had by switching the inlet bells on the carb to something like Prof Gordon Blair's "Best Bell" http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf (http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf)
... click . . . on . . . this . . .Well... I clicked on the image of the dyno room, and got... nothing! Does it work for everybody else? :?
Can you do anything about the carpenter ants by my deck? :-o
Cylinder # Reading Leakage % Source
1 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
2 84/90 6.7% rings/cylinders
3 87/90 3.4% rings/cylinders
4 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
Cylinder # Reading Leakage % Source
1 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
2 84/90 6.7% rings/cylinders
3 87/90 3.4% rings/cylinders
4 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
That 6.7 is a concern, but to hell with it - I'm going racing. :evil:
Why did you do the leak down test at 90 instead of 80? Was that @ tdc or did you rock it to get the highest #? Also the lower number may change due to ring rotation if you ran it and rechecked.
I'm destroking a 1275, which will get me the bigger valves and less shrouding.
I know I have an uphill battle with the 5 port head, and I suspect valve overlap on a short stroke Austin engine is going to be key to getting it right, plus maintaining a high compression ratio.
I am struggling for good advice on an undersquare A-series engine. Most information out there deals with stock stroke lengths, and almost all of the racing engine development assumes an oversquare configuration.
So I guess I'm building the world's tightest winding tractor motor. :-)
Geoff, THANK YOU.
This is from post # 3 of this saga –I'm destroking a 1275, which will get me the bigger valves and less shrouding.
I know I have an uphill battle with the 5 port head, and I suspect valve overlap on a short stroke Austin engine is going to be key to getting it right, plus maintaining a high compression ratio.
I am struggling for good advice on an undersquare A-series engine. Most information out there deals with stock stroke lengths, and almost all of the racing engine development assumes an oversquare configuration.
So I guess I'm building the world's tightest winding tractor motor. :-)
I’ve also stated that I am at best a shade tree mechanic. I’ve learned a lot, and my gratitude to Fordboy goes beyond words. Not only have I found a resource for an eccentric engine build, I have made a very fine friend. His insight and expertise has been KEY, CRUCIAL, CRITICAL to getting this thing where it is today, but that pales to just tipping back a beer on the porch with him and laughing our asses off.
And I simply cannot ignore the input from the rest of you who have chimed in, be it to warn me off, redirect my thoughts, or call me foolish. It’s not all expertise and chops – it’s wisdom and patience I’ve learned from participants on this forum.
I’m often saddened by those who start and for whatever reason can’t follow through on their builds. 5 years ago today, I bought the Midget. Given my past history with projects of this magnitude, it could have very easily remained the dust covered, disassembled pipe dream that it had become for the former owner. I can easily see where someone could lose interest and focus. But this forum and the shared contributions of all of you have made the difference between the Midget being an oversized, oddly shaped garden hose storage unit and a credible race car.
These forums have all been inspirational for me. I simply hope I'm giving as good as I've gotten.
To the brain trust that is landracing.com :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Cylinder # Reading Leakage % Source
1 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
2 84/90 6.7% rings/cylinders
3 87/90 3.4% rings/cylinders
4 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
That 6.7 is a concern, but to hell with it - I'm going racing. :evil:
Midget,
I hate to make predictions, it is too easy to get bitten in the a**, by a monkey or crocodile. . . . . . but, here goes. . . . . . .
I'd be satisfied by the dyno session if:
1/ It stays together,
2/ No additional problems are discovered,
3/ We get all the testing we want to do finished,
4/ The BMEP is 190 psi or better,
5/ The corrected TQ is 76 lb/ft or better,
6/ The corrected Bhp is 95 bhp or better.
I know this is a long list, but as usual, I'm thinking long term.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Midget,
I hate to make predictions, it is too easy to get bitten in the a**, by a monkey or crocodile. . . . . . but, here goes. . . . . . .
I'd be satisfied by the dyno session if:
1/ It stays together,
2/ No additional problems are discovered,
3/ We get all the testing we want to do finished,
4/ The BMEP is 190 psi or better,
5/ The corrected TQ is 76 lb/ft or better,
6/ The corrected Bhp is 95 bhp or better.
I know this is a long list, but as usual, I'm thinking long term.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Midget, et all,
As a precursor to posting a dyno data dump, I'm revisiting my predictions . . . . .
1/ It stays together, I'm estatic here A+
2/ No additional problems are discovered, as above A+
3/ We get all the testing we want to do finished, I always want to do more testing, just my nature, but I'm satisfied with where we ended up. A-
4/ The BMEP is 190 psi or better, ended up at 178 psi, so I think just a C is deserved.
5/ The corrected TQ is 76 lb/ft or better, finished at 72.2 lb/ft, a bit low, so maybe C+
6/ The corrected Bhp is 95 bhp or better. 95.1 bhp @ finish, so A, but I always want to exceed the target . . . . .
I guess I've eaten at too many Chinese/German restaurants, because an hour later I'm already hungry for: more power . . . . . . not complaining though.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
brought to you by Spotted Cow & Pizza
Fordboy
Midget
I love this build and the sound on the Dyno well it certainly is sweet, I'd be really happy with this result.
That is a Proper Job. :cheers:
Pete
WARNING: this read could cause loss of sleep!!! :-o
http://www.profblairandassociates.com/pdfs/RET_Bellmouth_Sept.pdf
69 days to go time. Time to shoot the engineers (sorry Mark) and ship the product.
Cylinder # Reading Leakage % Source
1 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
2 84/90 6.7% rings/cylinders
3 87/90 3.4% rings/cylinders
4 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
That 6.7 is a concern, but to hell with it - I'm going racing. :evil:
That's a 4.775% average on a cold engine. It would be nice if it was lower, or the engine made 200 bhp, etc, etc, etc. I don't think you want to be Dilbert!! Design approved and released for production . . . . .
GO RACING!!
:cheers:
Fordboy
Fordboy,
Will you be at Speedweek?
If not you should be. :wink:
Don
Do it now -- and save all the anxiety.
Here we go again –
So the borrowed manifold we tested that gave us the best horsepower, the Maniflow 3.75 unit, is not in stock – it’s built to order. Okay. So I ask what the time frame is. 6 weeks.
I have these scary visions of the deal that happened to my wheels – and my flywheel – and my crankshaft.
I do have a manifold that’s down ~ 3hp from the one we tested with, so I’m still racing. But if I get close and that new piece isn’t in Wendover, I’m going to shoot myself.
Could you use the borrowed manifold and have the new one shipped to its owner?
Don
Tell you what -- If you don't get it in time, I'll push you to the one fast enuf to beat the 22 MPH. At least you'll be showing progress.
Here we go again –
So the borrowed manifold we tested that gave us the best horsepower, the Maniflow 3.75 unit, is not in stock – it’s built to order. Okay. So I ask what the time frame is. 6 weeks.
I have these scary visions of the deal that happened to my wheels – and my flywheel – and my crankshaft.
I do have a manifold that’s down ~ 3hp from the one we tested with, so I’m still racing. But if I get close and that new piece isn’t in Wendover, I’m going to shoot myself.
Could you use the borrowed manifold and have the new one shipped to its owner?
Don
Possible, but I know that he's going to be doing some dyno work, and hopefully get his Mini out on the track before the end of the summer.
Midget,
Not to dash your hopes, but Mini-Maven & Friends are planning to dyno on 6/7 or 6/10 AND then are off to the races on 6/14 & 6/21. So the possibility of an extended loan is zero. Plan accordingly.
I'm glad to have had it to test.
And as far as dyno time sooner . . . you did do it earlier. Or have you forgotten . . .
It was probably a few bucks more, but that's the cost of peace of mind. It could be here as early as next week.
What price perfection? or some quotation similar... Well done you.
rob
Midget,
Not to dash your hopes, but Mini-Maven & Friends are planning to dyno on 6/7 or 6/10 AND then are off to the races on 6/14 & 6/21. So the possibility of an extended loan is zero. Plan accordingly.
I'm glad to have had it to test.
As am I. I'll keep the E-bay search up and do some digging. The Sussex Car show is coming up, and usually there are a large number of Mini guys there, so I'll ask around there, too.
Once you've tasted (tested) the good stuff, it's tough to go back to Miller Genuine Draft . . .
Here we go again –
So the borrowed manifold we tested that gave us the best horsepower, the Maniflow 3.75 unit, is not in stock – it’s built to order. Okay. So I ask what the time frame is. 6 weeks.
I have these scary visions of the deal that happened to my wheels – and my flywheel – and my crankshaft.
I do have a manifold that’s down ~ 3hp from the one we tested with, so I’m still racing. But if I get close and that new piece isn’t in Wendover, I’m going to shoot myself.
Dean, sorry for the whining. There are times that I think I could work on this thing 24/7 and not have it right. But what's frustrating is that next to the Small Block Chevy and the Small Block Ford, the A-series engine is among the most common engines in the world. They made it for 49 years, it has a racing history that predates either of the aforementioned engines, but do you think I can find a welded up piece of steel with 3 flanges on it in the United States?
'the hell am I going to do for the next 64 days with nothing to complain about?!?!?!
BTW luv the new avatar.
Frank
It's likely to become a tattoo.
QuoteIt's likely to become a tattoo.
Wow :-o Kate's going to let that happen?
Geo
Not to mention that So-Cal built the last factory MG at Bonneville for Rover Group.
Not to mention that So-Cal built the last factory MG at Bonneville for Rover Group.
Chris:
The text is correct, but I think you posted the wrong pics?
http://www.peterstevens.co.uk/speedrecords.htm (http://www.peterstevens.co.uk/speedrecords.htm)
(http://gallery.mg-rover.org/data/546/medium/1x15_1.jpg)
Mike
Chris, did Nancy and I send you a Christmas card this past year?
and the neighbors know that I have it back together. :-D
I'm thinkin' I prefer this pace to the "OHHOLYSHITI'VEGOTTODOABILLIONTHINGS" pace that was my previous modus operandi.
Grand news.
On our last dyno session, before we started, I checked and adjusted the valve lash. That day, we thrashed the living hell out of the Grenade. 25 hard pulls.
Tonight, I checked the clearances.
There has been no change whatsoever.
I expect the most problematic aspect of this build, the valve train, is now a resolved issue.
Seems I should be in thrash mode . . . very weird.
This project has had some marvelous guidance.
CONGRATULATIONS contributors.
FREUD
But I posted last September - and I'm going to stick to my conviction - that I have built the fastest damned stock bodied, naturally aspirated, five-port, one liter Midget ever to hit the salt. And as of today, I believe it's sitting out in the garage.
Okay - the talkin' part's all over. :cheers:
Chris, I can help you with that thin wallet thing... I mean by making it really thin.... :-D :-D
:cheers: :cheers:
Chris, just looked at your pictures in the head restraint thread... I think you need some really large gussets in the top of that roll structure... maybe even plate it all in to protect you from stuff coming in the top in case the worst ever occurs. :wink:
Consult Woody or Blue and then the SCTA prior to any welding... :cheers: :cheers:
Oh :-o I didn't know you were going to be able to run the top.... was thinking there might be some aero on the roll structure with it running back from the windshield.... that is why I suggested asking an aero guy if it would help... but since you are running the top... not an issue. :-D
you got it covered... so to speak :cheers:
I did that with a radiator cap once. :-) :cheers:WaynoOh :-o I didn't know you were going to be able to run the top.... was thinking there might be some aero on the roll structure with it running back from the windshield.... that is why I suggested asking an aero guy if it would help... but since you are running the top... not an issue. :-D
you got it covered... so to speak :cheers:
Factory hard top - a tough get, actually.
I bought the top about two years before I bought the Midget.
We used to trip over it in the laundry room, and Kate would shake her head and ask, "Why do you have a top for a car you don't own?"
I said, "I'll take care of it".
I think she was expecting me to sell the top, not buy a car to put underneath it . . .
I did that with a radiator cap once. :-) :cheers:WaynoOh :-o I didn't know you were going to be able to run the top.... was thinking there might be some aero on the roll structure with it running back from the windshield.... that is why I suggested asking an aero guy if it would help... but since you are running the top... not an issue. :-D
you got it covered... so to speak :cheers:
Factory hard top - a tough get, actually.
I bought the top about two years before I bought the Midget.
We used to trip over it in the laundry room, and Kate would shake her head and ask, "Why do you have a top for a car you don't own?"
I said, "I'll take care of it".
I think she was expecting me to sell the top, not buy a car to put underneath it . . .
Chris, I took the liberty to use my crayons to modify a pic as to what I think may be needed for the added bars around your noggin.
RED Dean. :-D
RED Dean. :-DLink the two hoops & continue out the other side to your diagonal.
Chris;
"...regardless of how I position the helmet - even pulling a Linda Blair - I can't get the helmet past the outside plane of the cage."
You mean.. you threw up in the cockpit? :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
You CLEARLY need modification from the photo.
That garage wall is way too close! Dump the house and get a 1 bedroom with a 7 car garage!!!!
Luv taps Chris, luv taps. BTW, you really need to post a video of you getting in that little beastie. The first time I saw you do it at the mile I 'bout wet myself. :-D
Not to mention the added expense to your daily budget for feeding straws and diapers.
:-o
If it will help, I'm 5-11. :roll:
If it will help, I'm 5-11. :roll:
Damned tall for a 6 year old . . .
I see maximums for the headrest and laterals (2"), but no minimum. I'm right on the pad on top.
At this point in the game, if that is a problem, that would be the deal breaker for me for the whole project. The roll bar is right up against the roof with the hard top in place.
If I get there and it's an issue, I'll ask around and see if I can find a shorter driver.
Bill, here's how it will work.
I'm arranging to get the extra bar welded in between the main hoop and the rear upright. I'm thinking that while I have the thing apart, I'll probably have the steel hinged lateral restraint welded to the cage, too. That way, it becomes integrated into the cage and forms yet another solid seat attachment point.
As to the overall height of me with respect to the cage, while Tony's point is good, I really had not anticipated it being a problem until today. All of the indications the rule book have given me is that they want close confinement of the helmet in the cage, which I've got, and will have improved upon. As to the height of the helmet with respect to the roll bar, I've simply built it to the maximum the confines of the car allow.
I anticipate being the wheel man in this ride, but above everything else, this has been a mission on getting an MG back in the record book - not me. If at tech, I find that they are uncomfortable with me and my frame taking to the salt, and that a shorter person can do it, the only problem I'll have is teaching somebody else what they'll need to know to operate it safely.
And getting them to sign a waiver . . . :roll:
Sure, I want to drive it, but in the end, it's not about me - it's about the car.
One of the peculiar aspects of the SCTA-BNI records is that they list the driver, the class, the speed, the date and the team - they never list the brand.
The team name is Milwaukee Midget Racing. If the car is swift enough to take the record, it will read Milwaukee Midget Racing. That information, along with a rudimentary understanding of the class will be sufficient for anybody with even the lightest of historical knowledge to connect the dots and know that there is an MG there.
That's really the goal for me. I WANT to drive it, but I don't HAVE to.
Looks like I've got a list of volunteers who will help if it comes to that. :-D
While I'd be honoured, given all his efforts, Chris needs this real bad!
I'm sure he's working on it right now! :-D
Don , much as I love ya probably not. Haven't got a brief to write stories this year so I don't get any costs covered, the Aussie dollar just went south so it's about ten per cent more expensive and there's no-one I really want to hide from this year so I'm saving my sheckles for the thing that you'll all got to know me for...is that enough reasons?
anyway, If show up there you'll only take some embarrassing photo of me :roll:.....next time I go stateside I want to do more than bolt directly from LA to Wendover and home again.
Hey, I took no pictures last year and besides that my new computer has Windows 8 and I can't get my photo program to work.What's wrong with you Don, make Gus do it :roll: :roll:
next time I go stateside I want to do more than bolt directly from LA to Wendover and home again.
. . .
IT REMAINS MY INTENTION TO DRIVE THE MILWAUKEE MIDGET AT THE BONNEVILLE SPEEDWEEK BETWEEN AUGUST 10 AND AUGUST 16.
You're free to bring your suit, your Hans and your brain bucket - but they're going to have to pull my cussing, lanky fighten' frame out from behind the wheel before I hand off the keys. . . .
IT REMAINS MY INTENTION TO DRIVE THE MILWAUKEE MIDGET AT THE BONNEVILLE SPEEDWEEK BETWEEN AUGUST 10 AND AUGUST 16.
You're free to bring your suit, your Hans and your brain bucket - but they're going to have to pull my cussing, lanky fighten' frame out from behind the wheel before I hand off the keys.
Volunteers, at ease . . .
. . .
IT REMAINS MY INTENTION TO DRIVE THE MILWAUKEE MIDGET AT THE BONNEVILLE SPEEDWEEK BETWEEN AUGUST 10 AND AUGUST 16.
You're free to bring your suit, your Hans and your brain bucket - but they're going to have to pull my cussing, lanky fighten' frame out from behind the wheel before I hand off the keys. . . .
I've read the rule book re: Roll Cage, . . .The rule book goes into great detail about cage requirements. It lists everything except the color of the cage which I assume if optional. I can't find any restriction to how close you can have the top of the helmet to the inside of the cage. . . so what's the issue? I think the Milwaukee Midget without you at the wheel is not the Milwaukee Midget . . . .
Tonto -
So it's my mask that's tickling my prostate? :|
The passenger ripping the handbrake on in the rain, thats entertainment in a Moke. :-D
Sid.
[/qu
ote]Or when you have 5 birds & 5 blokes in your Cooper S, labouring up a very steep hill in 2nd, and your "mate" reaches over from the back seat and reefs on the handbrake! He was just getting even- he was always a bit shirty that my "S" could just (by a smidgeon) beat his midget. It all started because one of my mates was dating a nurse at the local hospital- I cruised up with him to the nurses quarters- someone said "I wonder how many people you could fit in that thing?" It all led on to a particularly entertaining evening! Those were the days.....etc
Denis
The Midget showed well at the Sussex British Car Field Day last Sunday. Grabbed a 2nd place trophy for dragging it out.
This is my entry – let the yuks begin . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Sussex%202013/DSC_0041_zps7ed90f36.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Sussex%202013/DSC_0041_zps7ed90f36.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Sussex%202013/DSC_0043_zpsc87c9327.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Sussex%202013/DSC_0043_zpsc87c9327.jpg.html)
Ran under its own power –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Sussex%202013/DSC_0045_zpsd6df5da6.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Sussex%202013/DSC_0045_zpsd6df5da6.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Sussex%202013/DSC_0045_zpsd6df5da6.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Sussex%202013/DSC_0045_zpsd6df5da6.jpg.html)
Midget,
You missed on the number the Grenade deserves by 330 . . . . . . . . :evil:
Was your first choice unavailable?
:cheers:
J. Lucas,
Prince of ? Whatever . . . . .
"Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 1326?"
Is that the firing order? :| Wayno
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Sussex%202013/DSC_0045_zpsd6df5da6.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Sussex%202013/DSC_0045_zpsd6df5da6.jpg.html)
Midget,
You missed on the number the Grenade deserves by 330 . . . . . . . . :evil:
Was your first choice unavailable?
:cheers:
J. Lucas,
Prince of ? Whatever . . . . .
"Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 1326?"
That's a new revelation to me, St. Hubert . . .
"Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 1326?"
Is that the firing order? :| Wayno
Usually Wayno, the firing order is "Last on, first off"
"Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 1326?"
Is that the firing order? :| Wayno
Good one Wayno, you're still on form!"Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 1326?"
Is that the firing order? :| Wayno
Only in a misfiring flathead with a bad distributor! :evil:
Chris or Fordboy or who ever knows,
My daughter asked me the differences between the old Mini motor and the modern one.
I did not have a clue.
She was looking for a car and was concerned about reliability.
Educate me.
Thank you, Don
P.S. She bought a Mazda 3.
Chris or Fordboy or who ever knows,
My daughter asked me the differences between the old Mini motor and the modern one.
Chris, thanks for clearing that up.
Now back to Midgets, beer and getting Fordboy to Speedweek. :-D
Don
Tell Bob howdy.
A little down time - so I ran off to, "gee, I wonder if . . . " land.
I dug around the slag pile that is my used BMC engine parts corner of basement world and pulled out an old 948 block. Dale posted up the diameter of the Harley Davidson tappets the Flatcad is using - .750, which is smaller in diameter than the .812's in the Midget, but are of a roller variety. The 948 has an open tappet chest - the 1275 block is solid, but they're similar enough that I'm thinking I might be able to pull this off for next year.
Just bouncing some numbers around, but I'm thinking a machined insert might accommodate a modified Harley roller tappet in the Grenade. :roll:
A little down time - so I ran off to, "gee, I wonder if . . . " land.
I dug around the slag pile that is my used BMC engine parts corner of basement world and pulled out an old 948 block. Dale posted up the diameter of the Harley Davidson tappets the Flatcad is using - .750, which is smaller in diameter than the .812's in the Midget, but are of a roller variety. The 948 has an open tappet chest - the 1275 block is solid, but they're similar enough that I'm thinking I might be able to pull this off for next year.
Just bouncing some numbers around, but I'm thinking a machined insert might accommodate a modified Harley roller tappet in the Grenade. :roll:
Oh, BTW, RACE THE DAM* GIT BEFORE THINKIN' ABOUT CHANGIN' IT! :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
That's why there is so much interest in your final outcome.
We want to know how to avoid your destiny.
Why do MGs rust? Well, a lot of it has to do with the fact that there are so many open areas where crap collects.
Why do MGs rust? Well, a lot of it has to do with the fact that there are so many open areas where crap collects.
One of the key areas is in the lower rear of the front fender. Dirt, road salt and moisture gets kicked up between the inner fender and the outer fender, and short of removing the fender and cleaning it out, there’s really not a lot you can do to stop it.
Driving it on a surface of salt is a recipe for disaster.
This won’t cure it, but it should help.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN5209_zps8d98a121.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN5209_zps8d98a121.jpg.html)
It’s garage door weather strip, riveted to the lip in the inner fender. It permitted me to trim the inner fender wells for additional clearance in a tight configuration without having to radius the wheel wells.
So the Midget retains its charming good looks and still maintains its “do-it-yourself” punk attitude.
A couple of pieces of rubber sheet were also employed to keep salt from kicking up into the engine compartment and getting into the carb and onto the electrical.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN5210_zps292042db.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN5210_zps292042db.jpg.html)
I’m a few washers short of finishing (I’ve always been a few washers short) but it’s one of those niggling little things that has bugged me just enough to do something about it.
The new bar in place – padding is on order – should be here by the end of the week along with a new oil filter and some 5W-30 Brad Penn.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN5211_zps171fc1fb.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN5211_zps171fc1fb.jpg.html)
MM:
Building the Midget was one thing but you took the time to post and develop 188 pages for build diary thread for all of us to share. There are a bunch of us that now know this car well. We will all be on board in spirit. Everyone dreams but only 1% build the dream and execute the dream. Welcome to the 1% club. Yes there is a hat...not sure what color it is but it will say Bonneville 2013 Participant. Yes it is worth every effort and $.
And I can't thank Fordboy enough. He brought a degree of discipline to the engine development I would have floundered with.
Chris, you didn't dyno the engine with that style breather, did you? You may find it restrictive, causing a loss in HP.Buddy,
I think maybe you should consider a screen type filter, to keep the salt out, and not restrict flow so much. JMHO.
Chris, you didn't dyno the engine with that style breather, did you? You may find it restrictive, causing a loss in HP.
I think maybe you should consider a screen type filter, to keep the salt out, and not restrict flow so much. JMHO.
And the neighbors hate me again . . . :|
Well - that's good to see. 10 minutes, the engine up to temp, and no petroleum upchuck to deal with.
I deem the vent a success.
And the neighbors hate me again . . . :|
Maybe it's just me, but I got the impression that the old guy living behind you across the alley, hates everything . . . . . . except for maybe: beer & barbed wire . . . . .
Maybe it's just me, but I got the impression that the old guy living behind you across the alley, hates everything . . . . . . except for maybe: beer & barbed wire . . . . .
No barbed wire, but his stockade fence sure takes a pounding . . . :-D
Actually, since he quit drinking, he's become a bit grumpier, but the Midget doesn't bother him - he just turns down his hearing aids.
You should meet his younger brother . . . Just like him, only MORE SO! :-o
when I flowed the 38DCOE's for Wiggle-Pin, his USED K&N dropped the flow two cfm, approximately 1%
Quotewhen I flowed the 38DCOE's for Wiggle-Pin, his USED K&N dropped the flow two cfm, approximately 1%
So you do all that work to squeeze out the last ultimate horsepower out of the BMC iron and then throw it away with the filter?
Good grief, put a bigger filter on it. There should be zero loss through the filter.
Fordboy -
The author called you a "guru" . . .
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Years ago, a well known competitor of mine called me the "Luckiest f***er in the world". I prefer to think that I'm more adept at math than he is . . . . . If his opinion is the truth, how come I haven't won Lotto??????
:cheers:
Fordboy
He doesn't win the lotto because it's mathematically too random.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY FOR YOUR INSANITY?? WHAT ARE YOU THINKING??
You almost made a dead marque sound relevant!
It's tough trying to steal the limelight from the flatheads and the Studebakers . . .
Neil,
Just to use Chris's thread a little longer. I once was part owner of a race car that David Hobbs drove. I am sure you will recognize it from the attached pictures. This was the one he won with at Road America and Sears Point. Genuine great guy and great to see doing the F1 broadcast on NBC Sports.
Rex
FORDBOY -
Just so we have a reference here -
I ordered up a MGC tappet. We'll check it for hardness, but it is substantially larger in diameter than the standard A-series and B-series tappets. Excellent . . . .
If it can be made to fit, the world of camshaft lobe choices opens up considerably . . . Not to worry, I'll MAKE it fit . . . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5215_zpsbd8ee203.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN5215_zpsbd8ee203.jpg.html)
.9365-.9375 OD - about .001 taper bottom to top. .875 OD might be a possibility via centerless grinding . . . . .
.809 ID toward the top, but it's stepped - goes down to .798 at .439 from the top.
1.554 from the top to the inside bottom.
1.750 overall height.
It does have an oil drain hole.
59 grams - ouch . . . Some mass can be removed. But any extra mass is on the correct side of the rocker arm. And you thought you had big/heavy valve springs now . . . . . .
Major Tom,
How goes the countdown & the checklist?
:cheers:
Ground control
FORDBOY -I wonder how many people will know what an MGC is without going to google. :-D
Just so we have a reference here -
I ordered up a MGC tappet. We'll check it for hardness, but it is substantially larger in diameter than the standard A-series and B-series tappets.
If it can be made to fit, the world of camshaft lobe choices opens up considerably . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5215_zpsbd8ee203.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN5215_zpsbd8ee203.jpg.html)
.9365-.9375 OD - about .001 taper bottom to top.
.809 ID toward the top, but it's stepped - goes down to .798 at .439 from the top.
1.554 from the top to the inside bottom.
1.750 overall height.
It does have an oil drain hole.
59 grams - ouch . . .
Enlighten me as to what an MGC is.
Enlighten me as to what an MGC is.
1967-69, Very much an uprated MGB with a 3 liter inline six and a unique torsion bar front suspension. Like most MG products, it fell into the gaps. Development was started as a replacement for the big Healeys. Combination of impending US regulations and the Jaguar acquisition, development money was choked off by upper management so the 6 cylinder B wouldn't compete directly with the XKE (the race to the bottom of the rust bucket).
They still screwed together about 10,000 of them, but lack of development ruined their reputation.
I know where one is, I'll check after SW if you want & see if they want to let it go.Enlighten me as to what an MGC is.
1967-69, Very much an uprated MGB with a 3 liter inline six and a unique torsion bar front suspension. Like most MG products, it fell into the gaps. Development was started as a replacement for the big Healeys. Combination of impending US regulations and the Jaguar acquisition, development money was choked off by upper management so the 6 cylinder B wouldn't compete directly with the XKE (the race to the bottom of the rust bucket).
They still screwed together about 10,000 of them, but lack of development ruined their reputation.
Prince Charles still owns one.
I've been looking for one for my wife for years.
I know where one is, I'll check after SW if you want & see if they want to let it go.
Sid.
Chris,
Why would you want an auto in a sports car??? Having said that, I'd rather swap the trans on that one than change paint colour on another!
Cheers,
Rob
The choice is hers.
Chris,
Why would you want an auto in a sports car??? Having said that, I'd rather swap the trans on that one than change paint colour on another!
Cheers,
Rob
Well, I wouldn't, but there is a certain woman in my life who only drove a stick once in her life, and my third gear synchro in my first MGB was never the same.
The choice is hers.
As to finding the proper Borg Warner slush box and retrofitting it, a paint job is looking pretty darned straight forward.
Chris, I'll be thinking of you every step of the way, you can't imagine how much I wish I was there, you'll do it and I won't get to see it.
Cheers brother.
PS at least I'll have Simon's photo's.
I just had a close call when buying NGKs.
I had forgotten their heat ranges are basakwards.
Don
I know you're leaving HP on the table Mate.
You and Mrs Midget have a safe trip out to the salt.
Wish I was going to SW but WoS will do me just fine this year.
Now, go get the record with the little engine that CAN! :cheers:
Gregg
Wouldn't taping off the radiator be better? Not grill, radiator.
Midget,
If your coolant temps are too low, consider a hotter thermostat, say 185F or 195F as a last resort.
:cheers:
Fordboy
No. About 9:30am 8/13/13. You would think someone that is six foot five would have heavier feet.
Hey Fordboy and Midget and et al, :-D
Maybe, just maybe because of the Midget's hulamongo sized feet, maybe he can't get WOT???? :roll:
Relative to blocking off the grille area. Might not be legit in the GT category, but if a guy uses sreen door sized screen behind the grille, at speed it is effectively blocked off from through flow. Just a suggestion and lots of the old barracks on the edge of the old airfield have screen doors. :-o
Best to you in the efforts of the little car. Sure wish I could have been there but just couldn't make it fit in.
Regards,
HB2 :-)
Looks good! Sounds good! That's a very fast midget. :cheers:Unfortunately:
More weight in rear of the car to prevent the wheel slip.
Try it without the top - perhaps faster perhaps not.
Windows up - maybe windows down. Don't know until you try.
We are all straining to get the needed few mph.
Geo
Looks good! Sounds good! That's a very fast midget. :cheers:Unfortunately:
More weight in rear of the car to prevent the wheel slip.
Try it without the top - perhaps faster perhaps not.
Windows up - maybe windows down. Don't know until you try.
We are all straining to get the needed few mph.
Geo
"convertibles" must run with the top up. Yup
Windows must be up. Yup
Weight may help when there is power in excess of traction. No offense intended but I doubt that to be the case here. Undoubtedly true . . .
In addition, though the penalty is small, increased weight does have some drag so until power exceeds traction, lighter is better. Undoubtedly true as well. Power potential of this engine configuration makes this improbable . . . . .
In addition, many out of control race cars this meet have been seen. I would bet that most if not all have had CG behind the CP producing an aero unstable situation. Also undoubtedly true. Indy & Nascar teams avoid that situation like the plague.
I agree the car looks a bit high. Can you lower it? Especially the nose.
Is your peak HP RPM matching your speeds where you want it? Could you go to slightly shorter or taller rear tire to help place peak a better location?
Nice going though, good luck.
Monday
Veh Engine Body Entry Name Quarter Mile1 Mile2 Fastest
996 I GT Chris Conrad 0.000 102.464 0.000 102.464
996 I GT Chris Conrad 114.844 109.781 115.886 115.886
996 I GT Chris Conrad 115.185 111.120 116.698 116.698
996 I GT Chris Conrad 117.155 112.234 118.069 118.069
Tuesday
996 I GT Chris Conrad 115.336 111.944 115.878 115.878
996 I GT Chris Conrad 114.275 110.386 115.028 115.028
996 I GT Chris Conrad 116.444 113.319 117.293 117.293
996 I GT Chris Conrad 117.161 113.586 118.267 118.267
Have we tried it without the air filter yet?
The video show that it launches very well.
"Scotty, I need more power. Cap'n, I'm given her all she's got!"
I wonder if an Ashley Silverstone top (without sunroof) would be legal?
(http://www.mgnuts.com/gallery/hardtops-midget/midget-ashley-silverstone.jpg)
Mike
The current record for Unblown Grand Touring Sports - /GT
Engine Entry Name Driver Date Speed
I Highlander R. Thomas 8/92 121.779
"By the numbers", then: (Hey, by now you guys should all KNOW, I'm a numbers guy . . . . . . .)
Best run Vs current record: -3.086 mph
Best run Vs current record, %: 97.465% (-2.535%)
Improvement over previous best speed: 539.513% (yes, you read that correctly . . . . . )
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
A couple hours ago he was loading up.
The speed he was most concerned about was how fast he could get home.
He forced a 1 Hive Initiative Vanilla Cinnamon Mead on me.
I plan to drink it under the covers tonight.
If I die the room service people will find me in the morning,
FREUD
Midget,
BTW, Improved capacity kegerator for the "project cave" now installed & chilling world's favorite beverage. (I have had to compromise and allow "wine". Sacrilege, I know. But it just wasn't worth the dogfight.)
Let me know if you are going to stop below the "Cheddar Curtain" prior to returning to "Beerhaven". I believe I can requisition some "Olde Speckled Hen" or another celebratory beverage of your choice. And the grill still works fine, so just let me know. I believe you are aware that I like to "plan ahead".
Midget,
Have laid in a case of "Old Speckled Hen" into the "Kegenstein", in anticipation of your return. I sampled one last evening after your phone call . . . . . . AAhhhh, what will you be drinking? :roll:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
1st post back from speed week and it is about grog??? :-o
Midget,
Have laid in a case of "Old Speckled Hen" into the "Kegenstein", in anticipation of your return. I sampled one last evening after your phone call . . . . . . AAhhhh, what will you be drinking? :roll:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
2 days of driving, no laptop or computer access, I just walked in the damned door, pull up the thread, and Fordboy's gone and sucked up all the ale!
Talk about the fox in the henhouse . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG0odWIW3BE
The current record for Unblown Grand Touring Sports - /GT
Engine Entry Name Driver Date Speed
I Highlander R. Thomas 8/92 121.779
"By the numbers", then: (Hey, by now you guys should all KNOW, I'm a numbers guy . . . . . . .)
Best run Vs current record: -3.086 mph
Best run Vs current record, %: 97.465% (-2.535%)
Improvement over previous best speed: 539.513% (yes, you read that correctly . . . . . )
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2697 on: June 10, 2013, 08:49:01 AM »
Chris, I can help you with that thin wallet thing... I mean by making it really thin....
The air usually sucks in August... So plan your assault on the record for a year of racing... also be there in September for possibly better air and again in October for the best air. Porkpie can tell you there can be a really important 3.135 MPH hiding in the air.
Stainless,
Given the results as of 8/14/2013, the statement in red, above, seems unusually prescient. Was your mom a fortune teller or tarot card reader? Or was it just the Dragon's Milk talkin'?
:cheers:
Fordboy
The current record for Unblown Grand Touring Sports - /GT
Engine Entry Name Driver Date Speed
I Highlander R. Thomas 8/92 121.779
"By the numbers", then: (Hey, by now you guys should all KNOW, I'm a numbers guy . . . . . . .)
Best run Vs current record: -3.086 mph
Best run Vs current record, %: 97.465% (-2.535%)
Improvement over previous best speed: 539.513% (yes, you read that correctly . . . . . )
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2697 on: June 10, 2013, 08:49:01 AM »
Chris, I can help you with that thin wallet thing... I mean by making it really thin....
The air usually sucks in August... So plan your assault on the record for a year of racing... also be there in September for possibly better air and again in October for the best air. Porkpie can tell you there can be a really important 3.135 MPH hiding in the air.
Stainless,
Given the results as of 8/14/2013, the statement in red, above, seems unusually prescient. Was your mom a fortune teller or tarot card reader? Or was it just the Dragon's Milk talkin'?
:cheers:
Fordboy
Mark and Chris, been away from the computer since we ruined it on the 13th. We found 3 mph in improved Oct air. It is odd that you need the same... hope you find it there, nose down, got to be 3 more in there somewhere.
See you back on the salt 8-)
Vacation time? :| I quit more than one job to go to Bonneville. :wink: :cheers: Wayno
Chris...Great to meet you, Kate and Nick. Really, you have to be happy with the way everything went. I still can`t remember the name of the English Ale I found, but, since you requested more information, I suppose I will have to search anew.... :-D
Sorry I missed you. :oops:
Sorry I missed you. :oops:
Me, too, Trent.
Nick, the team manager, simply kept me to task, and it was a good thing.
We got in late on Saturday, didn't tech until Sunday after Rookie O. We were on 3, and it finally dawned on me how vast the damned place is! We put 400 miles on the support vehicle on the salt in 4 days. It's a wonder I saw anybody I knew.
At least I was favored to meet Tman.
For that I am happy.
Mrs Midget is a jewel.
FREUD
Vacation time? :| I quit more than one job to go to Bonneville. :wink: :cheers: Wayno
Hey Chris, you did really well, really well. It's almost there.
Hey Chris, you did really well, really well. It's almost there.
Not bad for a brick, eh? :-D
Don, Gus, you are ALWAYS WELCOME in Midgetdom.
Yee Ha!.....200 pages and counting! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Gregg
P.S. Nice job on the 200 page milestone . . . . . (or izzit 'millstone' . . . . . . .)
P.S. Nice job on the 200 page milestone . . . . . (or izzit 'millstone' . . . . . . .)
A bit of both.
I'll be down tonight. Warm up an Old Speckled Hen in the Lucas Fridge . . .
Slightly off-topic: origin of the term "pommey"? [aka 'pommy']
P.S. Nice job on the 200 page milestone . . . . . (or izzit 'millstone' . . . . . . .)
A bit of both.
I'll be down tonight. Warm up an Old Speckled Hen in the Lucas Fridge . . .
Slightly off-topic: origin of the term "pommey"? [aka 'pommy']
Midget,
For your permanent records.
5/30/2013 COLD leakdown test of 999cc BMC, post mega-dyno thrash:
Cylinder # Reading Leakage % Source
1 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
2 84/90 6.7% rings/cylinders
3 87/90 3.4% rings/cylinders
4 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
Sounds like the rings are starting to seat... See you at WoS :cheers:
Thanks. I'll take the liberty of adding it to my lexicon of "affectionate abuse" terminology...
Thanks. I'll take the liberty of adding it to my lexicon of "affectionate abuse" terminology...
Midget,
I'm curious...how many other cars ran in your class? Were they any closer to the record?
Aerodynamics
1969 MG Midget
Drag coefficient (Cd, Cx, Cw) 0.5 Frontal area (A) 1.48 m2 (est.)
Aerodynamic coefficient (Cd×A) 0.74 m2 (est.) Aerodynamic resistance (Aero horse power) at 100 km/h (62 mph) 18.3 kW (est.) = 24.5 hp
Honda Insight 1999-2006
Drag coefficient (Cd, Cx, Cw) 0.25 Frontal area (A) 1.97 m2 (est.)
Aerodynamic coefficient (Cd×A) 0.49 m2 (est.) Aerodynamic resistance (Aero horse power) at 100 km/h (62 mph) 12.1 kw (est.) = 16.2 hp
Aerodynamics
1969 MG Midget
Drag coefficient (Cd, Cx, Cw) 0.5 Frontal area (A) 1.48 m2 (est.)
Aerodynamic coefficient (Cd×A) 0.74 m2 (est.) Aerodynamic resistance (Aero horse power) at 100 km/h (62 mph) 18.3 kW (est.) = 24.5 hp
Honda Insight 1999-2006
Drag coefficient (Cd, Cx, Cw) 0.25 Frontal area (A) 1.97 m2 (est.)
Aerodynamic coefficient (Cd×A) 0.49 m2 (est.) Aerodynamic resistance (Aero horse power) at 100 km/h (62 mph) 12.1 kw (est.) = 16.2 hp
... Total Cd of 0.25 seems to me to be a number more likely for a "lakester"...Do you have available any lakester values of Cd? Ever since some Hot Rod Magazine author (Don Francisco maybe?) showed a table of "representative" drag coefficients back in about 1954, I've been under the impression that drop-tank lakesters are typically on the order of 0.9 Cd. :?
Data in attached document for your consideration:
Cd, weight, and driveline efficiency are estimates. What are actuals?
Cd for Insight of < 0.30 may be realistic, have seen coast-down test results for production class Firebird at Bonneville of about 0.26.
... Total Cd of 0.25 seems to me to be a number more likely for a "lakester"...Do you have available any lakester values of Cd? Ever since some Hot Rod Magazine author (Don Francisco maybe?) showed a table of "representative" drag coefficients back in about 1954, I've been under the impression that drop-tank lakesters are typically on the order of 0.9 Cd. :?
Here's a question - on the time slips, there is an adjusted air density. What is that referenced to? If I use that number when calculating HP loss, I wind up with a 30% HP reduction with altitude calculated in, whereas if I reference at zero instead of 4200, I'm looking at about a 15.5% reduction - which is more in line with what I would expect.
Here's a question - on the time slips, there is an adjusted air density. What is that referenced to? [/quote}
Try this guy's website, lots of in depth discussion about how all that is calculated and some nifty calculators you can use to try some number combinations out to see how it compares to what your car would dyno at when you are tuning at home.
By they way dyno correction factors due to density altitude are bogus with turbocharged cars, because the correction varies with the boost level, so you need to account for the boost level in the calculations. The standard SAE correction at high altitude (like here in Denver) is almost 2x what is should be on a turbocharged car running 1 atmosphere boost (14 psi).
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_cf.htm
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp.htm
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_dp.htm
http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_hp_abs.htm
etc.
I hit the ground running at work this week, but before I die, I'm going to get a whole post on the whole week up here - but some names that I must acknowledge right away are :
Fordboy - His insistence upon testing and his analytical and machining skills got this little turd to the point that it is a competitive car in a class with a record that has sat for 20 years. Thanks, Mark.
Pork Pie - Most people aren't aware of this, but he stopped by and literally coached me and Nick through the whole procedure. Yeah, we would have eventually have picked up the subtleties of line etiquette and what to look for and to watch, but his early involvement in the week probably added two full runs to our attempts. Pork Pie, I am in your debt.
Interesting -
"The car's engine was a derivative of same found in the Fiat 600, but with an enlarged bore and stoke. Added to this was a special DOHC cylinder head that used hemispherical combustion chambers and an increased compression ratio. Along with an improved intake and exhaust the 1000 Biabero could produce 91 bhp - nearly 100 bhp per liter."
All those fancy parts, and they couldn't pull 95.1 hp? :wink:
Would be Fiatboy
Would be Fiatboy
We'll change your name to "Tony".
Mark, you're dating yourself here. I mean -- Sophia Loren? She's a tad on the elderly side, although still absolutely fine to see. But - how does a sorta young guy even know about her?
This image was burned in my younger brain in 1966! :-o
Sign me up for this team! :cheers:
Class combined with beauty and elegance.
She is still a standard without any plastic.
FREUD
Life magazine when downhill from that cover!
BR
I wonder if enough of those Abarths were produced to qualify as "production"?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
"...Forget the name change to Tony . . . . . . it's gonna be: Marcello!..."
Okay, but the next question is which Marcello? There's M. Mastroiani, the Italian actor that played parts opposite Sophia Loren, and there's Marcello Escobedo, the proprietor of the Salt Flats Cafe (the truck stop's Mexican restaurant).
They don't look very much alike. I don't have a photo of either right here to prove it.
I wonder if enough of those Abarths were produced to qualify as "production"?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Back to improvements . . .
Lowering -- yes.
Lighter gear oil -- yes.
And keep the front (disc?) brakes -- just disable them.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't campaign a Speedwell Sprite next year . . .
"This class is limited to 2-seat production sports cars like the Corvette, Honda S-2000 or Fiero as
well as limited production cars like the Factory Five Cobra manufactured by a recognized
automobile manufacturer intended for comfortable high-speed driving. A production rate of at
least 500 vehicles of the same model for sale to the general public is considered to meet the
requirements of a production automobile."
But it does not say that a minimum of 500 is required for limited production cars.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't campaign a Speedwell Sprite next year . . .
"This class is limited to 2-seat production sports cars like the Corvette, Honda S-2000 or Fiero as
well as limited production cars like the Factory Five Cobra manufactured by a recognized
automobile manufacturer intended for comfortable high-speed driving. A production rate of at
least 500 vehicles of the same model for sale to the general public is considered to meet the
requirements of a production automobile."
But it does not say that a minimum of 500 is required for limited production cars.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't campaign a Speedwell Sprite next year . . .
"comfortable high-speed driving" Now there's a debate in the works. :-D
Don
"comfortable high-speed driving" Now there's a debate in the works. :-D
Don
Don...my mind flashed on a vision of a stock Midget, racing a stock Beetle, and both drivers falling asleep! :lol:
I bet I read your sentence wrong. :roll:
When I was 16, I could kick a TC's butt with a stock Model A. At least across an intersection.
Midget,
For your permanent records.
5/30/2013 COLD leakdown test of 999cc BMC, post mega-dyno thrash:
Cylinder # Reading Leakage % Source
1 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
2 84/90 6.7% rings/cylinders
3 87/90 3.4% rings/cylinders
4 86/90 4.5% rings/cylinders
The consistency of this little engine is starting to amaze me - Why? It's making 95.2 bhp/litre with high quality parts. It should hang together if the oiling system continues to do its' job.
Valve clearance is still at spec. Now that everything is stabilized and you have enough valve spring pressure to control the "effective mass" at the rpm you are using . . . . . . . . Still think it might be too much valve spring pressure?
8/20/2013 Hot leak down test - after 10 runs at Bonneville, taken to 180 degrees this evening -
1 96/100 4%
2 94/100 6%
3 96/100 4%
4 96.5/100 3.5%
I'm thinking I should just throw the fenders back on, quit my job, and drag it back for WOS . . .
Just don't tell Kate . . . .
I got the X/Stock trophy from Colton to prove my pickup's killer speed. (I was running outlawed 16" wheels, tho.) Trounced a Willys station wagon in the finals (actually the same as the first round). Beat a go-kart with a shucked chain and aced the X/Eliminator round, too. Just the start of over thousands (hundreds?, tens?) of victories with Model As.
I'm wondering if I shouldn't campaign a Speedwell Sprite next year . . .
surely you mean Midget Coupe?
http://www.jacobsmidget.com/history.html
I'm a bit late to the party here, but your latest dyno runs sounded just right, unlike the previous clip which sounded strained.. (accepting that this may just be sound quality). Kudos to Fordboy and yourself for sorting out the valve train. Some serious work went into getting the valve train to fit in & getting it sorted out. Lots of info many pages back in Midget's build diary.
Andy
I told him last year to call it a '67 and get rid of the side marker lights and one windshield wiper mount.True - the wisdom of Wisdonm was bypassed.
I was also over ruled on an electric water pump. I wish we had dynoed that.
Chris,
GREAT catching up with you yesterday and seeing the Midget!
My pic of Austin and Piggy sitting on the Midget came out perfect.....LOL! :-D
Lynda and I REALLY enjoyed the hospitality provided by you and Kate! :cheers:
Gregg
Currently in Beerhaven, WI on our way to WoS!
Getting the C/R up is going to mean a piston change, at the minimum. And with the ultra high C/R's needed for BMC's to make respectable bhp, my experience is that a o-ringed block with a Coopers head gasket or a solid copper head gasket is going to be required.
Many of the cars running in vintage/historic road racing are/or have updated/backdated bodywork and bodywork mods/add ons, etc. Is this permitted by SCTA? It seems to me that many of the cars running have been "optimized" to a particular configuration. These 'Midget Coupes' exist/existed in numbers that probably match the one off bodied Abarths . . . . . . .
The '67 grill change, in my opinion, would also be beneficial. The grill bars are stamped into a piece of thin metal. You could control the amount of air entering the engine compartment by re-flattening those bars.
Did you remove the weather seal from the trunk? This will let out pent up interior air pressure.
Midget, Marcello:
You’re so close--only need about 10% more.
Some ideas in addition to what has been suggested above.
Aero
Since closing the grill and/or radiator seem to be against the rules, fit a radiator with exceedingly close fin spacing or maybe some damaged fins. Close off any other internal flow paths from behind the grille except maybe a “cold” air duct inlet for the engine airbox.
Lower the car, maybe a bit of rake, too.
Tire pressures?
Were the windows rolled up?
Power
In the dyno session I seem to recall that you just chose the better of the inlet and exhaust configurations that were at hand. Both of these may respond to refinement and tuning for the generally hotter conditions at Bonneville. What are the inlet and exhaust tract geometries at present? Do they work together?
Icewater intercooler?
Front end toe minimized.
Slow down the water pump. It’s probably cavitating at 8k anyway.
You built a duct to put fresh air into the air filter, what about building a plenum that houses filter and via the previous duct has high pressure air from in front of radiator cram into said plenum?
Lose the bumper guards.
I just found KaleCoAuto. The solution for many of your problems.As if I'm not already tripping over myself getting in and out of this car. :roll:
(http://kalecoauto.com/images/jrod.jpg)Johnson Rod
$28.99
I just found KaleCoAuto. The solution for many of your problems.As if I'm not already tripping over myself getting in and out of this car. :roll:
(http://kalecoauto.com/images/jrod.jpg)Johnson Rod
$28.99
If I had a bumper . . .
If i am not mistaken, air travelling through the carb venturi with fuel atomizing will cool the charge significantly. I have never tested this, but do know alcohol carbs freeze up due to this effect.
Have you re-thought fuel injection? Straighter inlet manifold runners and computer tune ability may give you enough of a power increase.
To lower the front end, just move the bottom spring perch to the bottom of the A-arm. Use longer grade 8 bolts and spacers until happy.
Midget, Marcello:
You’re so close--only need about 10% more.
Some ideas in addition to what has been suggested above.
Aero
Since closing the grill and/or radiator seem to be against the rules, fit a radiator with exceedingly close fin spacing or maybe some damaged fins. Close off any other internal flow paths from behind the grille except maybe a “cold” air duct inlet for the engine airbox. Some of this has been done. More attention will be devoted here.
Lower the car, maybe a bit of rake, too. This has already been done, the max that was easily achieved. More needs to be done. MAY require shorter front tires to improve the rake . . . . . Talking about lowering the front to the point where it's on the ground at launch, because of the high speed lift.
Tire pressures? Probably should have been running the higher pressures all along . . . . . Well, you learn as you go . . . . . .
Were the windows rolled up? Yes. Probably going to check if there is any lexan window deformation at speed.
Power
In the dyno session I seem to recall that you just chose the better of the inlet and exhaust configurations that were at hand. Both of these may respond to refinement and tuning for the generally hotter conditions at Bonneville. Undoubtedly true. Have to get more experience with jetting the carb for the severe Density Altitude differences @ B'ville. What are the inlet and exhaust tract geometries at present? It's a non-standard combination for the engine's displacement, based on what is currently accepted as gospel for BMC's. None of which I care about. We made tuning choices based on dyno results . . . . . Do they work together? Yes and no, er, it's complicated. I picked the inlet length for one peak torque rpm and the header primary length for another, slightly lower peak torque rpm. I did this to flatten the torque curve and give a wider usable bhp curve. Now that Midget has gotten a year with a bunch of good runs, and the car and concept have proven competitive, probably going to do a couple of things to raise the bhp output and narrow the useable power range. One will be to tune the inlet and exhaust tracts to the rpm at top speed. Probably narrow the working range from 2200/2000 rpm to 1700/1500 rpm. With the close ratio gearbox he has, and the narrowed powerband, probably looking at a push start . . . . . .
Icewater intercooler? Definitely, on both fuel and inlet air, if legal in GT.
Front end toe minimized. At factory minimum now, probably going to try less.
Slow down the water pump. It’s probably cavitating at 8k anyway. Already done. His original setup, (and what most Spridget racers use), spun the water pump at 13,000+ rpm at 8000 crank rpm. As I'm sure you will agree, that's crazy. Back in the build diary are photos of the gilmer belt setup I designed and machined to fit this application. It uses a 3/8 pitch toothed belt with a 15/28 under drive ratio for a .5375 w/pump to crankshaft speed. At 8000 crank rpm, 4286 water pump rpm. I wanted to get it a bit lower, but 32.96% of the original water pump rpm is way better. It also uses a wider than needed water pump pulley, so that an additional accessory drive can be fitted. Say, uhmm, a dry sump oil pump . . . . . . .
Back to improvements
And keep the front (disc?) brakes -- just disable them. That way you don't have to screw around with them every run. (Street Roadsters all have lights and horns, bet a lot of them don't work.) As easy as it is for you to get in and out of it, I don't think you'll be making short hops to the store. At 123 MPH, the back brakes ought to work in a mile.
How is it possible for this Corvette to be running in D/GT with this scoop and spoiler? (photo in reply #13)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13087.msg231134.html#new
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-LYcaecSF8AU/UhT8vDIiNUI/AAAAAAAACRs/GWBUZEDjRus/w1239-h929-no/P1100005.JPG
Just asking. Not trying to upset anyone.
Question Mark & the Mysterions
But, but, but there's no need for front brakes on that car at the speed it's running. Just internally disable them. $0.00.
If yr gonna get a monkey to drive it take out all the "over and above" safety equipment you can, sheesh our car just has backs,it makes the Colonel nervous ,I'm fine with it........
If yr gonna get a monkey to drive it take out all the "over and above" safety equipment you can, sheesh our car just has backs,it makes the Colonel nervous ,I'm fine with it........
It goes beyond stopping the car. We put 400 miles on the Dodge dragging the Midget back and forth over 4 days. The Dodge can stop on a dime, the Midget - not so much. The easiest way to tow it I found was to keep a bit of brake on while in tow, which kept the rope from becoming slack and prevented me from slammin' into the tow vehicle.
Yeah, a longer tow rope, but the point is that in an emergency, it needs to stop as quickly as the tow vehicle.
A tow bar is questionable because the steering is severely limited and I don't think it would follow the tow vehicle well.
In the case of a tank, you're front is exposed, and it makes sense to keep the aero around the front tire clean. Brakes on the front are of no aero concern with the Midget, and if I can keep 'em and be assured they aren't dragging, it's silly to get rid of them.
Yeah, I'm kinda stubborn on this one, but NASA used to send monkeys into space, and not all of them came back. I want a better track record than that. :wink:
Ahem,
Let's see, monkeys (I believe you might mean chimpanzees) into space.
How about a sealed ram air system drawing from just in front of the windscreen if it has a grille there?
Do you have exhaust O2 logging data to fine tune your jetting?
cheers
jon
Wisdonm -
I did get your text - just was busy.
No, we did not bring the 3.90 rear end - we ran the 4:22. I doubt if the engine would have pulled the 3.90. I was able to spool it up to ~9100, but the car hit the wall at 7,500 -7,600 in 4th - shy of our peak at 8,000.
I'm thinking I'd have had to turn 9,000 in third with the 3.90 to approach the 121 figure, which would have been off of the power band.
Chris, I just went back and found these numbers. IMHO, the answer lies here. Do what you can to get the aero a little better, to make it easier to pull the RPM's, but for what you need (3mph), i wouldn't get to exotic with it, as you are very limited.
Find those other 400 RPM's!!!!!
I still say electric pumps, plus fuel injection, are the way to go. Both for the water and the oil. These two pump changes should be worth a minimum of 5 ponys.
1. You need every pony that you can get.
2. The pumps are not that expensive (say $150 each) and can be mounted practically anywhere.
3. The weight of an extra battery may actually help traction and won't hurt top speed. I used an old fashion car battery to run mine for a whole day of road racing, without an alternator.
I don't know what the oil flow rate is for an A motor, but I do know:
1. a big block Chevy Hi Volume pump flows 21 GPM max.
2. a '71 VW oil pump flows < 5 GPM @ 6,000 rpm.
Fuel Injection provides much better atomization over carbs.
I guess I'm in a newly-found cantankerous mood (Right!).
Lose the front calipers, add a tiny drag chute if you are worried.
....As to the A/F ratio, my gauge - when it gave a reading - indicated between 9.2 and 21.4.
So that's why I checked plugs - and why I am looking for a new gauge...
....As to the A/F ratio, my gauge - when it gave a reading - indicated between 9.2 and 21.4.
So that's why I checked plugs - and why I am looking for a new gauge...
Congrats on what you have done with the car. You should be very proud.
Whose air/fuel gauge are you using? We put 2 of the....
(http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/images/MTXL_All_Web.jpg)
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/MTXL.php)
...MTX-L Innovate gauges in the stude this year and so far I really like them.
I guess I'm in a newly-found cantankerous mood (Right!).
Alright, alright . . . geez . . . that's all we need is for Stan to turn this build diary into a new wellspring of cantankerotism. :-DLose the front calipers, add a tiny drag chute if you are worried.
Now THAT would be the height of posing.
Trent - did you catch up with Gregg and Linda?
Seriously, I am grateful that so many of you want me to succeed - and I know that this is the motivation behind the comments.
It's a huge mental stumbling block for me to put together a car with weak brakes. And yes, I know, there's nothing to hit out there.
Just let me sit and stew on it a while.
I'll put it on the table along with everything else I'm looking at.
And seriously - everybody - thank you. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Gregg and Linda are out here, did the Badlands today, I will see them tonight or tomorrow night.
....I'm using the innovate LC-1 and haven't been able to get a reliable reading out of it since day one. I'm looking for an analog alternative.
Regarding the cooler air, this car produced better speed in hot, thin air, which indicates to me that it is the aero that is more of a problem than lack of power. Speeds consistently increased as temp and adjusted altitude went up. . . .
....I'm using the innovate LC-1 and haven't been able to get a reliable reading out of it since day one. I'm looking for an analog alternative.
Regarding the cooler air, this car produced better speed in hot, thin air, which indicates to me that it is the aero that is more of a problem than lack of power. Speeds consistently increased as temp and adjusted altitude went up. . . .
Where is the O2 sensor for the LC-1 in relation to the end of the pipe and also the collector? We didn't always have good readings with the LM-1 but it was not that far from the end of the pipe and it was also operating in high temps. I had a heat sink on it that helped some. They don't really like temps over 1000. We bit the bullet and put the ....
(http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/image.php?productid=16148)
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16148&cat=250&page=2 (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16148&cat=250&page=2)
...expensive heatsink standoffs on the new turbo motor and so far that has worked great. They are only about 9 inches from the turbo. We have a second fitting further down the exhaust we can move to if the heat gets to much but getting near the end of the pipe can cause problems also. We bought all of the new Innovate parts from Jerry at DIYautotune. He is also a landspeed racer.
I'm wondering if the air/fuel ratio you are ending up with in the afternoon makes more HP. If you could get the same ratio in the denser morning air you might make even more HP. The Difference between 4500 air and 7000 air is about the same as 1 lb. of boost. I'd hate to give that up if possible. We have almost always done better in the morning air.
Good luck,
Sum
That close to the end of the pipe can lead to reversion sucking fresh air into the pipe in between exhaust gas pulses and giving erratic readings.
One of the tricks used at emissions stations to get a border line car to pass emission tests is to pull the wide band probe out of the pipe a few inchs (the probe is about 18 inches long). Just those few inches closer to the end of the pipe can let enough fresh air to back flow and mix with the exhaust gases to give readings that are a bit leaner than the real values.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/news3.php
I'd try to get the LC1 working on the daily, just make a tailpipe extension for it. It'll be wrong at idle but should be OK under way. That being said, don't be too surprised if the LC1 is duff, we had a massive failure rate on them (might just have been a batch, but I wouldn't take the chance again).
I was reading about your running a total loss battery, you might want to consider adding a 2V Cyclon cell in series for anything voltage sensitive.
If you build a plenum would it be possible to choke it down on the dyno so that it's at Bonneville pressure, or would you need to do something with the exhaust too? I think your carb references to the airbox?
Andy
Interested --
Usually agree with you --- but we run "whiskers" on the back bumper of our tow vehicle with tow bar. Don't get any salt on the race car except on sharp turns -- it comes from the open front wheels on the roadster.
400 miles with a tow strap is not safe. And a time-killer. At a safe 10 MPH, that's 40 hours!
Midget, Marcello:
You’re so close--only need about 10% more.
Some ideas in addition to what has been suggested above.
Aero
Since closing the grill and/or radiator seem to be against the rules, fit a radiator with exceedingly close fin spacing or maybe some damaged fins. Close off any other internal flow paths from behind the grille except maybe a “cold” air duct inlet for the engine airbox. Some of this has been done. More attention will be devoted here.
Lower the car, maybe a bit of rake, too. This has already been done, the max that was easily achieved. More needs to be done. MAY require shorter front tires to improve the rake . . . . . Talking about lowering the front to the point where it's on the ground at launch, because of the high speed lift.
Tire pressures? Probably should have been running the higher pressures all along . . . . . Well, you learn as you go . . . . . .
Were the windows rolled up? Yes. Probably going to check if there is any lexan window deformation at speed.
Power
In the dyno session I seem to recall that you just chose the better of the inlet and exhaust configurations that were at hand. Both of these may respond to refinement and tuning for the generally hotter conditions at Bonneville. Undoubtedly true. Have to get more experience with jetting the carb for the severe Density Altitude differences @ B'ville. What are the inlet and exhaust tract geometries at present? It's a non-standard combination for the engine's displacement, based on what is currently accepted as gospel for BMC's. None of which I care about. We made tuning choices based on dyno results . . . . . Do they work together? Yes and no, er, it's complicated. I picked the inlet length for one peak torque rpm and the header primary length for another, slightly lower peak torque rpm. I did this to flatten the torque curve and give a wider usable bhp curve. Now that Midget has gotten a year with a bunch of good runs, and the car and concept have proven competitive, probably going to do a couple of things to raise the bhp output and narrow the useable power range. One will be to tune the inlet and exhaust tracts to the rpm at top speed. Probably narrow the working range from 2200/2000 rpm to 1700/1500 rpm. With the close ratio gearbox he has, and the narrowed powerband, probably looking at a push start . . . . . .
Icewater intercooler? Definitely, on both fuel and inlet air, if legal in GT.
Front end toe minimized. At factory minimum now, probably going to try less.
Slow down the water pump. It’s probably cavitating at 8k anyway. Already done. His original setup, (and what most Spridget racers use), spun the water pump at 13,000+ rpm at 8000 crank rpm. As I'm sure you will agree, that's crazy. Back in the build diary are photos of the gilmer belt setup I designed and machined to fit this application. It uses a 3/8 pitch toothed belt with a 15/28 under drive ratio for a .5375 w/pump to crankshaft speed. At 8000 crank rpm, 4286 water pump rpm. I wanted to get it a bit lower, but 32.96% of the original water pump rpm is way better. It also uses a wider than needed water pump pulley, so that an additional accessory drive can be fitted. Say, uhmm, a dry sump oil pump . . . . . . .
Interested Observer,
All great ideas, some/most of which have been partially used.
Going to come up with a strategy for reducing potential brake drag. Also going to reduce trans/diff losses by going to lighter synthetic lubricants coupled with lowered fluid levels.
I am confident that the Grenade's output can be raised to about 103/105 bhp reliably. Since the 1310cc F/Prod SCCA engines are making 106/114 bhp/litre (depending on whose dyno numbers you believe . . .) we might be able to achieve that level. Since the 999cc has better breathing capability coupled with lower flow demand, we might even do slightly better. I want to remain realistic though, no Nascar or F/1 budget here . . . . .
As always, thanks for your thoughts.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Back to Fordboy
Midget/Fordboy, a few thoughts--
Ground clearance - I’m not sure if FB was serious about the zero-clearance statement, but it would be wise to maintain at least 1/2-3/4” clearance. You’re not always on a groomed course, and even that can have holes, ruts, ridges, etc. It can also make trailer loading/unloading a challenge or, at least, a more ticklish operation. Do you use alternate, larger diameter “transport” tires and wheels? To avoid excessive aero pitch-up, just strap the front suspension.
Brakes - I’m with you--keep them until they are demonstrated to be a significant issue. Check it out before the discs rust up.
Tow bars - generally result in a lot of salt being thrown onto the racer. A decent length tow strap is pretty simple and effective.
Air/fuel - It is sometimes good to remember that these things are based on an oxygen sensor, and that they simply infer the mixture rate from the remaining oxygen. Also, as I recall, they need to be pre-heated (electrically) to work properly, especially with leaded gas. They can also cease to work well, or at all. This may be at the root of your wildly varying readings. Rather than a gauge, consider a data logging system to gather this info (as well as other useful information, revs, oil pressure, etc.) since there is nothing you are going to do about it during the run anyway. With your wheelbase, you need to be looking down the road, not trying to read and remember gauge readings.
Body seams - While taping up the gaps is an easy thing to do to clean up the surface, that can’t be done, and at 120 mph one might question the effectiveness anyway. Reworking the bodywork to neaten up the still existing gaps seems like a lot of work and expense for debatable benefit unless you have some really grievous misfits, or you just want to do it for aesthetic reasons. See if you can get “Blue” to render an opinion.
Density altitude - Since aero drag is proportional to the air density, and presumably the power output is also proportional, academically, performance shouldn’t vary with DA. I would suspect that the increased temperature may be producing better vaporization and/or a more advantageous inlet and exhaust “tuning” condition.
2V battery - are you saying that the 12V battery dips below 2V? If not, and 2V is sufficient to avoid the problem, what is the problem? A second (motorcycle?) battery would seem a lot simpler for data and instrumentation stability.
I agree with you on the density altitude and thought the car would be faster in the cool of the morning. However, it's undeniably faster in the heat of the afternoon, (approx. 3 mph!) so we are missing something important here. Could be any one of a number of things.
Chris, I don't mean to beat a dead horse on the A/F thing but how far is 8" form the end of the tail pipe from the head pipes collector? My experience has been to have the sensor with in 12" of the collector to keepthe sensor heat up.
Take a look at this and see if there is an answer
How much does it bounce? Sitting at the start line mine varies from 9.56 to 14.51. Pulling down the course the trace can go from 13.00 to 12.69 in a half of a second. The trace is not a line on the graph but a fuzzy band about .3 wide.
If you suspect noise on the ground side aside from the obvious of moving the ground point, or giving it a direct ground path to the battery, you can also try putting a ferrite choke filter on the ground line. You can get them from radio shack as clamp on devices. The strongly inhibit AC signals on a DC wire.
Similar to:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103222
Just a country boy from western Colorado's opinion.
If you don't have EGT's on every cylinder do you know if it is the one that will run the leanest? What reading is acceptable for your engine?
............... We pulled 95.1 on the dyno, and probably left 10 in Milwaukee going to Utah. ....
........
That it went as fast as it did is still one of the most pleasant surprises I've ever had.....
I favor a second small 12V battery as well. I am devoted to the KISS principle . . . . . . besides, it's an LSR car, not the Space Shuttle. I think the suggestion to add a 2V
battery in series to the existing system, is to keep B+ voltage for the ignition from falling below 12.0 volts. Some electronic ignitions don't work reliably below 12.0 volts, as I am sure you are aware.
[/quote/]
I originally added the 2V to make an early AFR sensor work, there weren't enough volts without an alternator for the heater to work correctly. However, the electrical power jump from 11.5V to 13.5V is massive (power = V^2/R) so the extra volts give me the power that I need for my fuel pump, and the faster injector switching times that my engine needs (I'm turbo and injection). I'm also devoted to KISS, and won't have anything on my race car that doesn't have to be there :)
Andy
QuoteI agree with you on the density altitude and thought the car would be faster in the cool of the morning. However, it's undeniably faster in the heat of the afternoon, (approx. 3 mph!) so we are missing something important here. Could be any one of a number of things.
In theory engine power should change at about 1/(the square root of the absolute inlet air temperature change)
Air drag drops with the air density
Power required goes up at the cube of the speed change. This implies that in hot temps you are likely making more power along with the lower aero drag from air density as power required to go faster increases faster than power drops due to inlet temp changes.
Intake tuning will change with intake air temp change, the tuning will move toward higher rpms as air temp increases. Perhaps your intake is moving the torque peak up the rpm range slightly in the heat giving higher average power.
Fuel density will change slightly with ambient temp if the fuel has time to stabilize at the new temp (and is not some how controlled for temp like running through an ice bath).
Rolling resistance on the tires and wheel bearings should also drop with increasing temps.
If you have the data, see if your shift points change (time in each gear) between the cold and warm runs, you might be getting into better gears earlier on the hot runs or something so you have more time to pull the long gears.
Interesting puzzle will be fun to see what the key variable turns out to be.
is there anything prohibiting you from running another head? something crossflow and japanese or korean from one of their small .8-1.3L engines? sohc or dohc? or are you limited by class rules on using the BMC piece?
If you don't have EGT's on every cylinder do you know if it is the one that will run the leanest? What reading is acceptable for your engine? How far should it be from the head? What reading is comparable to what air/fuel ratio. I find air/fuel to give us lots better data to tune with as we can see what it is under any condition at any time of the run. Data logging isn't cheap but it is way cheaper than replacing a blown motor. Most modern tuners that now have good air/fuel reading capabilities use that more than the EGT readings which is pretty much all they had to use before reliable/accurate wide band O2 reading was possible.
Sum
Not to say you still can't blow one up but taking a cautions approach (very rich) approach with air/fuel and looking at the data kept our old motor alive for a lot of runs/years and it set 2 records. Without data logging I'll bet we would of blown it up at least once.
Sum
If you are running faster in the hot air then something else is going on and I don't think it is aero,
Sum
I originally added the 2V to make an early AFR sensor work, there weren't enough volts without an alternator for the heater to work correctly. However, the electrical power jump from 11.5V to 13.5V is massive (power = V^2/R) so the extra volts give me the power that I need for my fuel pump, and the faster injector switching times that my engine needs (I'm turbo and injection).
Andy
I'm also devoted to KISS, and won't have anything on my race car that doesn't have to be there :)
Andy
Chris, when are the dual video cams going to be enabled?
Chris, when are the dual video cams going to be enabled?
I turned my studio into an engine build room.
I will not be turning my cockpit into a studio.
Chris, when are the dual video cams going to be enabled?
I turned my studio into an engine build room.
I will not be turning my cockpit into a studio.
Why not? The masses DEMAND: LSR with Midgets from Milwaukee. This is such a great idea for reality TV!!!!! You could franchise it to other cities!!!!!! Just think of the possibilities . . . . . . . . midgets everywhere would want in on it!!!! AND . . . . . . . Think of the possibilities for Brewery sponsorship . . . . . . . . EVERY "SMALL" Brewery would want to participate . . . . . . . . .
CALL THE TRADEMARK OFFICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
....Doing the calculations, and assuming T1 = 75F, T2 = 90F, Baseline Bonneville Hp = 85, and a baseline speed of 115 mph, the resulting speed as a result of a temperature change from T1 to T2 would be 116.6 mph.....
QuoteI agree with you on the density altitude and thought the car would be faster in the cool of the morning. However, it's undeniably faster in the heat of the afternoon, (approx. 3 mph!) so we are missing something important here. Could be any one of a number of things.
In theory engine power should change at about 1/(the square root of the absolute inlet air temperature change)
Air drag drops with the air density
Power required goes up at the cube of the speed change. This implies that in hot temps you are likely making more power along with the lower aero drag from air density as power required to go faster increases faster than power drops due to inlet temp changes.
Intake tuning will change with intake air temp change, the tuning will move toward higher rpms as air temp increases. Perhaps your intake is moving the torque peak up the rpm range slightly in the heat giving higher average power.
Fuel density will change slightly with ambient temp if the fuel has time to stabilize at the new temp (and is not some how controlled for temp like running through an ice bath).
Rolling resistance on the tires and wheel bearings should also drop with increasing temps.
If you have the data, see if your shift points change (time in each gear) between the cold and warm runs, you might be getting into better gears earlier on the hot runs or something so you have more time to pull the long gears.
Interesting puzzle will be fun to see what the key variable turns out to be.
Ref. Hotrod’s reply #3148 and C.F. Taylor Chp. 6
As a point of information:
Doing the calculations, and assuming T1 = 75F, T2 = 90F, Baseline Bonneville Hp = 85, and a baseline speed of 115 mph, the resulting speed as a result of a temperature change from T1 to T2 would be 116.6 mph.
Since this is considerably less than the spread that Midget achieved, it is reasonably apparent that some other effect is also contributing to the “hotter-is-faster” results observed. (Although, there were some “slow” runs at 90F also.)
Looked at in the simple, overall sense, it is rather intuitive, and correct, that the drag is proportional to air density, which is inversely proportional to the temperature. And, power would be considered proportional to air density, which is inversely proportional to temperature. So, a change in temperature would affect both, proportionally.
However, to produce power, what is really important is the mass flow rate, not just the air density. Mass flow rate is the product of the density and the volumetric efficiency. It turns out that the volumetric efficiency has been shown to vary approximately as the square root of the temperature which, when multiplied by the air density (being inversely proportional to temperature), results in a mass flow rate that is inversely proportional to the square root of the temperature, as Hotrod stated. This, in effect, says the volumetric efficiency increases slightly with temperature and makes the power loss due to increased temperature less severe than the directly proportional loss of the simpler concept using air density alone. It is, however, a small effect--the calculated loss of horsepower in the Midget example is only 1.17 hp. This also assumes that the cooling due to fuel evaporation is the same in both cases.
Conversely, the gain in horsepower in going from 75F to 60F of 1.22 would result in a speed of 114.45 as the drag overcomes the power gain.
Again, this is an academic treatment concerning temperature alone, and as is the case with the Midget, obviously there are other, larger effects taking place somewhere/somehow. The point of the exercise was to estimate how significant the temperature change alone might be.
NOTE: Due to a misplaced parenthesis in the worksheet where the calculations were made, the 116.6 mph figure in my previous reply should be 115.5 mph.
Okay, let's go back to the run data -
Track orientation sw to ne
Date Time Temp Humidity BP D A Wind Wind Speed Mile 2 2 1/4 Mile 3 Note Air jet Timing
12-Aug 8:37 70.6 15 25.73 5863 ssw 1 102.464 Rookie 180 37
12-Aug 14:28 88.9 8 25.7 7008 s 4 109.781 114.844 115.886 180 37
12-Aug 17:08 89.8 7 25.66 7106 ese 9 111.12 115.185 116.698 180 37
12-Aug 18:42 90 9 25.65 7145 sse 10 112.234 117.155 118.069 180 37
13-Aug 9:25 71.9 31 25.78 5943 nnw 1 111.944 115.336 115.878 180 37
13-Aug 11:41 77.8 20 25.78 6279 ne 5 110.386 114.275 115.028 push start 180 37
13-Aug 15.29 88.4 9 25.73 6946 sse 5 113.319 116.444 117.293 175 37
13-Aug 17.57 91.5 6 25.68 7177 sse 11 113.586 117.161 118.257 175 37
14-Aug 11:07 79.2 22 25.77 6391 n 0 113.241 117.077 117.816 170 37
14-Aug 13.56 88.5 11 25.73 6965 n 3 114.456 118.141 118.693 165 37
Let's toss the highlighted rookie run and the push start as outliers, then separate by jet size -
On the 180 “rich” jets, my best speed was with a bit of help from a 9-10 mph sse wind, and we'll toss those –
12-Aug 14:28 88.9 8 25.7 7008 s 4 109.781 114.844 115.886 180 37
12-Aug 17:08 89.8 7 25.66 7106 ese 9 111.12 115.185 116.698 180 37
12-Aug 18:42 90 9 25.65 7145 sse 10 112.234 117.155 118.069 180 37
13-Aug 9:25 71.9 31 25.78 5943 nnw 1 111.944 115.336 115.878 180 37
We leaned out the mixture - we'll dump the wind enhanced outlier -
13-Aug 15.29 88.4 9 25.73 6946 sse 5 113.319 116.444 117.293 175 37
13-Aug 17.57 91.5 6 25.68 7177 sse 11 113.586 117.161 118.257 175 37
Switch to 170 jets
14-Aug 11:07 79.2 22 25.77 6391 n 0 113.241 117.077 117.816 170 37
Switch to 165 jets
14-Aug 13.56 88.5 11 25.73 6965 n 3 114.456 118.141 118.693 165 37
Final dataset -
date time temp rh bp adj wind 1mile 2mile 3mile jet timing
12-Aug 14:28 88.9 8 25.7 7008 s 4 109.781 114.844 115.886 180 37
13-Aug 9:25 71.9 31 25.78 5943 nnw 1 111.944 115.336 115.878 180 37
13-Aug 15.29 88.4 9 25.73 6946 sse 5 113.319 116.444 117.293 175 37
14-Aug 11:07 79.2 22 25.77 6391 n 0 113.241 117.077 117.816 170 37
14-Aug 13.56 88.5 11 25.73 6965 n 3 114.456 118.141 118.693 165 37
I'm going to take some credit here - most of the actual "driving" of the car is in the first mile - the one mile numbers are consistent enough for a rookie.
Compare the two best 1-mile times - and note the adjusted altitude, and wind direction and speed -
13-Aug 15.29 88.4 9 25.73 6946 sse 5 113.319 116.444 117.293 175 37
14-Aug 13.56 88.5 11 25.73 6965 n 3 114.456 118.141 118.693 165 37
I think we were getting pretty close on optimal jetting. I never did anything with the timing other than to take out the rev limiter after the rookie run.
I know this does not lead to a conclusion, but I think it leads to a direction.
For those who were wondering how loud the Midget is . . .
For those who were wondering how loud the Midget is . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Bonneville%202013/277_zpsf31f7d19.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Bonneville%202013/277_zpsf31f7d19.jpg.html)
I saw a wind tunnel test for a production LSR car and one of the things that increased drag was rake. Level was better, and this was a relatively square cut car.
I saw a wind tunnel test for a production LSR car and one of the things that increased drag was rake. Level was better, and this was a relatively square cut car.
What does the first sentence of rule 4.CC on page 46 state?Of course since it is likely no one has ever thought of this (the oil pan thing) and the rule really was written for "body" modifications you might have gotten away with it..... :-o But now the cat is out of the bag with the impound guy... :cry: Besides rule says around or within the car, not under-picking nits here :) (oops- inspector says "my interpretation is... you lose)
DW
:oops:
"Any device which has the apparent purpose of directing, limiting, or controlling air flow around or within
the car and is not a part of the original body will be considered as streamlining."
What if it appears to be a big, flat faced oil pan with a large, forward facing cooling surface?
:wink:
See, Dan - this is what happens when you start to get close . . .
Midget,
THIS: is why we haven't been able to solve those aerodynamic problems . . . . . . . . . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44o9eEASaa4
Da**!!! Being from "Beerhaven" you shoulda thoughta this!!!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Soon to be "Creativeboy"
P.S. (I'm ingesting a Sam Adams Oktoberfest as I type away . . . . . . . & I feel smarter already. . . . . . . . .)
Midget,
THIS: is why we haven't been able to solve those aerodynamic problems . . . . . . . . . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44o9eEASaa4
Da**!!! Being from "Beerhaven" you shoulda thoughta this!!!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Soon to be "Creativeboy"
P.S. (I'm ingesting a Sam Adams Oktoberfest as I type away . . . . . . . & I feel smarter already. . . . . . . . .)
Okay, Mark, let's reel this theory back in a bit, I'll grab the net, and we'll get this lunker in the boat.
I want to make sure I've got this right.
I have been what you have described as a student with potential, but clearly, somewhere in my notes, I've either jotted something down wrong, or misunderstood a concept.
BMEP
Now I wrote down, Brake Mean Effective Pressure.
Was that actually supposed to be Beer Might Effectively Prevail?
Chris
Sorry this is off "beer" topic. I can't handle dark, strong beer. Sometimes I can't handle weak, pale beer. :cheers:
Anyway, how about lowering the whole car and putting air shocks on the rear. that way you experiment with different angles of attack without much effort.
Ron
... I’m afraid I’m looking at O-rings...No reason to be "afraid" of O-rings; they are your friend. :-)
... I’m afraid I’m looking at O-rings...No reason to be "afraid" of O-rings; they are your friend. :-)
That large vent can be plumbed into a moroso crank case evac type setup, using exhaust gas to pull out vapors instead of pressure pushing them out.
Also, i have never once had any luck using a cometic mls in any if the applications i used them on ( mostly high hp 4 cylinders). In those particular applications the factory had an mls that cost almost double, but had a zero failure rate in my applications.
Does felpro make a permatorque fire ring gasket for your application? I have heard great things about those without having to cut grooves.
If you do cut grooves, check out the isky groove-o-matic tool. Fairly cheap and useable on any engine.
Sure, Bill - a vac pump, a dry sump - there IS a ton of latitude. When Mark set up the water pump drive, he did so anticipating a dry sump system which would hang about where the alternator used to live.
Off of the head, I'm seeing some evidence of pressure under the valve cover, but I have a huge vent that exits the block - it used to be the distributor hole, over which I built a vent attachment. The filter is attached to the firewall, and makes a climb of ~ 8" from the block.
So while I don't have vacuum, it's pretty well vented.
Well - this just in from Blackstone Oil Testing Service -
CHRIS: If you're using leaded fuel, that might explain most of the lead. Lead can also be a bearing metal
though, we won't know what's a normal level for your MG until we have trends to look at. The universal
averages show typical wear for this engine type after about 2,000 miles on the oil, but we're not sure how
that equates to hours in this case. Plus, this engine is still relatively new, so it's likely that some of the
aluminum, iron, copper, lead, and silicon are from wear-in. Low insolubles shows effective oil filtration, and
no contamination was found. This is good news.
There's a full list of numbers, all of which look good, with the exception of one -
Sodium - 411 Universal average - 24
Wonder where that came from . . . :-D
Feel free to download the attachment. This is the kind of information Blackstone provides. It's $25.00.
Not worth a lot but electric water pump?
Eric,
They test that was done was a spectrometer test which identifies the elements that are in the oil, many of the elements that they show may be part of the oil's additive package.
Rex
It is very interesting to see the lifter track on the cam shaft, assuming that the width of the track is proportional to the pressure of the lifter on the cam lobe it appears that the cam almost "lofts" the lifter at the cam nose. Just a comment and interesting.
I wonder if it would be useful to have them analyze some fresh oil? This way you'd have a better understanding of how the chemistry changed by overlaying the before and after.
Oil test numbers don't look bad. I dig that kind of data!
... Is anyone aware of a similar tool...Yeah, it's called a milling machine! :roll: Okay- it's not 'similar'- but for doing the traditional labyrinth-type O-ring deal (with receiver grooves, as Peter Jack explained), you don't have a choice.
:-D... Is anyone aware of a similar tool...Yeah, it's called a milling machine!
:-D... Is anyone aware of a similar tool...Yeah, it's called a milling machine!
Yeah, okay, okay.
I did talk to Mel at C&S about this last year. They've done great work for me, but he was a little concerned about this.
It's a good shop, but he's not comfortable doing this operation. While I've pushed him a bit on a few things - the head milling in particular - if he's not comfy making the cuts, I don't want him doing it. There is no room for error in cutting anything else on this head. When a guy who refurbishes Duesenberg heads is uncomfortable with a proposed operation, I need to give considerable thought to moving forward.
What I liked about the Isky cutter is that it appears to only cut into the block. Is that only an appearance, or is that the case with this cutter? If that is the case, I doubt Mel would have an objection of duplicating the operation with a mill, but I don't see where it would be as effective as receiver grooves in the head as well as in the block.
I just need to make myself more aware of the operation before I can make a decision.
PJ, tell me more . . .
You know what Murphy's wife's law is????? "MURPHY IS AN OPTIMIST" :-D :-DThat works, my sources say that is "O'Tool's commentary on Murphy's law". Don't know who O'Tool was. :cheers:
Ron
You know what Murphy's wife's law is????? "MURPHY IS AN OPTIMIST" :-D :-D
Ron
Now that the "Grenade" makes "Big Boy Horsepower" (and the resultant cylinder heat . . . . ) you need to take some further steps to insure the head gasket doesn't fail . . . . . . . (Thanks BMC, for all "3" of those head studs per cylinder . . . . . . :-()
Howe's law: Every man has a scheme that will not work.
You know what Murphy's wife's law is????? "MURPHY IS AN OPTIMIST" :-D :-D
Ron
You rarely see that level of spousal loyalty these days.
I'd say given Murphy's track record, anyone who would remain married to him takes their vows of "for better or worse" pretty darned seriously.
To Mrs. Murphy! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:Now that the "Grenade" makes "Big Boy Horsepower" (and the resultant cylinder heat . . . . ) you need to take some further steps to insure the head gasket doesn't fail . . . . . . . (Thanks BMC, for all "3" of those head studs per cylinder . . . . . . :-()
A thought - would a machined steel girdle incorporating the rocker shaft stands provide us the opportunity for more clamping pressure and better clamping load distribution?
Essentially, the head and the gasket would be sandwiched between the girdle and the block.
:roll:
I keep thinking of the work that the Flat Cad boys have been doing to keep that block alive.
Or is this an application of Howe's Law . . .
Howe's law: Every man has a scheme that will not work.
:?
BTW, you can re-invent the wheel if you want, but I've already been down this road . . . . . . . the Camino de las Yungas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXLxszv9eCM
It's the law of: Diminishing returns and Increasing costs . . . . . . . I'm pretty sure that law was not postulated by Newton, Einstein or even Stephen Hawking . . . . . I'm pretty sure it was: Murphy . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Darn! I should have bought that Coventry-Climax engine that a guy offered me for $60 back in the Eighties!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Yep
We have "o" ringed cylinders , and try as hard as he can , Goggles hasn't popped a head gasket on it yet
G
We're only at 9.6 static . . .
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MG-Midget-1500-Triumph-Spitfire-1500-Cylinder-Head-Complete-No-Cracks-/331013019504?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d11e9d770&vxp=mtr
i dont know much at all about bmc engines. or if this head fits your 1.0L or not... but it is a 4 cylinder, and has 4 ports for intake and exhaust.
surely it has better cylinder distribution for air/fuel mixture.
then there is this guy, most likely makes it illegal for your class
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Crossflow-Cylinder-Head-Austin-Healey-Sprite-MG-Midget-/230620025017?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35b20650b9&vxp=mtr
Really Chris, you use a jack?
No jack needed.
He can lift that fly with helium balloons.
FREUD
... but I did replace the short hose in 2011.
FREUD
I’m certain a new jacking procedure will be necessary.
I’m certain a new jacking procedure will be necessary.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JUMBO-PRY-BAR-900mm-36-SQUARE-TANG-THRU-SHAFT-NEW-/290978185202?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43bfa6bff2
Which reminds me, years ago I worked in a lab , we had a flock of sheep, one of my workmates had a particular fascination with the capacity of latex gloves . . .
Dick says "try front wheel drive rims."
You're right about the Corvair/Vega/Monza rims. That's where I got my 13 x 7 for my Arkley/Sprite. You already have steel rims. The centers can be cut out and repositioned.
Dick has a bunch of $5 one day passes. He races at 1:00 on Sun. Let me know if you're interested. I'll gift you a set.
How does this effect your steering /contact patch geometry Chris?
Is the back coming down some as well or is it all turning into take?
Sorry for dumb questions.
jon
But the rod ratio would be phenominal!!! (Insert sarcasm) and let you make some high rpm at a safer piston speed!!! (End sarcasm)
What size front tire are you running now?
Big discussions about this at the Runoffs.
a. Wouldn't it be easier/safer to move the suspension mounting holes inward?
b. Wouldn't it be better to have shorter, tubular (if legal) A arms. You know, for safety, not performance advantages. wink, wink
c. Some Honda rims are 4 x 4.
Dick mentioned today, that he makes custom off-set bushings for Sprigets. These are used to change the camber. Tilt the tire in and up into the fender. Narrower tire foot print is an added benefit.
Chris:
Back to the head gasket for a moment--
It seems that the gasket performed well with the exception of the slight leakage between #2 and #3, and it would be nice to be able to continue using it (a standard gasket) in lieu of a more involved solution. Also, it appears that there is not a lot of acreage on that 2-3 bridge for O-rings. Which brings up some questions for further musings on the problem.
Have you put a straight-edge across the head and block at the bridge to see if either has locally recessed itself?
Not yet.
For that matter, are the head and block still reasonably flat in an overall sense?
Yes.
What was the torque and re-torque history, qualitatively?
Have to look up the spec, but it was all done prior to assembly, with the exception of when we ran in the cam on the outer springs - after that, we re-torqued it hot - or warm, at least. The rocker pedestals are held down with the head studs.
Did you use any sealing materials besides the gasket itself?
No - Cometic doesn't recommend it.
Do you have photos of the used gasket, and maybe details of the 2-3 ligament?
Not the gasket - but it's hanging on the wall of the garage - There was no indication of any compromise between the two cylinders.
What style gasket is it, and the Cometic part number?
MLS - .036 thick. I found these to squish as much as .004.
Were there any hints of other inter-cylinder leakage or other failed behavior?
On the last tear-down after Maxton in 2011 - same story, but much less this time.
On the retorque, you did it with a hot engine. I was always under the impression that this is a not so great practice.
I'm actually having difficulty getting the engine above 180 - it's running super cool - at least as far as the water temp is concerned.
Just a reminder for those who are following along, MAX that can be tolerated:
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/MidgetSpreadsheet02001.jpg)
:cheers:
Fordboy
I'd ordered up a pair of their steel 3 piece head gaskets. They were advertised at .027, measured up at the fire ring at that, but by the time I put the torque to the studs, they crushed down to .0225.
yaah - go bears dare, aina hey . . .
All possibilities are on the table. I need to calculate the pop-up I can get by with and maintain the valve-to-piston clearance, and still allow enough variance so we can rock the cam a degree or two without crashing into things.
A friend of mine showed me how to do that! :-)
Absinthe? Nevermore . . .
180 degree coolant temperature is way too low. The whole idea it to retain the heat of expansion and use it to push the piston down. The hotter the coolant the better.
... I'm not sure I would use a copper gasketSee my post #3230 to this thread. I apologize for being repetitive, but there doesn't seem to be a very widespread understanding of traditional O-ring/copper/receiver-groove functionality.
there is too much area to compress...
See my post #3230 to this thread. I apologize for being repetitive, but there doesn't seem to be a very widespread understanding of traditional O-ring/copper/receiver-groove functionality.
... The only concern I have is how much thickness have you got left in the head to allow for the o-ring groove...As I said before- I can't believe his head won't live with a .020" deep receiver groove.
yaah - go bears dare, aina hey . . .
All possibilities are on the table. I need to calculate the pop-up I can get by with and maintain the valve-to-piston clearance, and still allow enough variance so we can rock the cam a degree or two without crashing into things.
A friend of mine showed me how to do that! :-)
If you are going the custom piston route anyway, you can take a mold of the combustion chamber with one of the various products available for port molding etc and send to the mfg. They can then design the piston top to get what you want. I have used CP for that, through Nick Arias III (b'ville racer and 2 club member) who used to run Atomic speedware but now is working for Arias pistons. You have to be careful though as domes, though they help CR, may cause enough interference to flame travel that the process is negatively affected. Watch and see what you can do with squish/quench area also. May be some power there (area and piston to head clearance). All these things, as you have mentioned, can give P-V clearance problems and you get limited with what you can do cam wise. I currently run P-V and P-Head clearances that really raise eyebrows, so far without problems though I would be hard pressed to say this set up is better (am I making more power???). Watch sharp edges on the piston top/dome as well. They need to be well massaged smooth. A point of CR only makes a small percent more power under best of circumstances and other changes may need to be done to make use if it. Is it worth the trouble and money when you are already at 13:1. Of course, you are looking for every pony you can find, I understand.yaah - go bears dare, aina hey . . .
All possibilities are on the table. I need to calculate the pop-up I can get by with and maintain the valve-to-piston clearance, and still allow enough variance so we can rock the cam a degree or two without crashing into things.
A friend of mine showed me how to do that! :-)
Midget,
Perhaps some play time with some clay on the tops of the pistons might prove useful. At least it would establish what might be achieved, C/R wise, with the current build geometry and chamber shape . . . . . Then, the clay can be carefully removed and its' volume measured to calculate the final C/R you can achieve . . . . . Just sayin' . . . . . .
Low compression ratio . . . . . Nevermore . . . . . !!!!
Go Ravens! Go Bears!
Baltoboy
Chris, PM or call John Noonan as well, he is a racer, frequents this site and will work with you on pistons. You may need Pork Pie to read some of the blue prints, but the quality is beyond compare. I assembled head on block with gasket, sprayed on some penetrating oil, poured in mixed resin, sent the resulting chunk to John with cam specs, compression height and said we needed the max compression they could get.Second this also. I don't know John but he was the motorcycle piston guy at JE Pistons. Have heard him talk and certainly would also be good resource.
If you upset the apple cart make cider instead of beer.
FREUD
PM sent, Chris. It's about apples -- that's why I'm not putting the story here.
Chris, how many PSI are those things rated for?
I like it.
Don
Anybody remember the rubber cone suspension in the BMC Mini's?I had one. Wayno
Sid.
Anybody remember the rubber cone suspension in the BMC Mini's?
Sid.
"Kate reminded me yesterday that Trick or Treat was this afternoon in our neighborhood, ..."
Getting a little ahead of schedule aren't they? What will they do on Halloween? Go around for seconds? It's kind of hard being scary in the afternoon.
Good grief, I'm glad that I was a kid back when I was.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Well, I ran out of chainsaw oil, so I had to improvise . . .Aren't pumpkin guts a lubricant? :| Wayno
Well, here’s a thinker – or maybe not.
I pulled the rear end on the Midget a few weeks ago, pulled the hubs and replaced the wheel studs with some longer units from a Mini Cooper. All’s well, reinstalled the axles – the splines looked great – and I hand turned the pinion. It turned freely, but every complete turn of the crown gear, there was a spot where it was just a touch tougher to turn – barely perceptible, not grinding or anything that created a noise, just a small bit of extra resistance.
As I’m at the point where I’m trying to reduce every possible Newton of resistance, I reluctantly pulled the pumpkin.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Midget%20Build/DSCN5314_zps409b20d6.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Midget%20Build/DSCN5314_zps409b20d6.jpg.html)
The crown gear and the pinion looked flawless. The pumpkin came out of a 1959 Bugeye, and the gears have clearly been harmoniously working together since Harold Macmillan lived at 10 Downing Street. These things were notorious for slap-dash assembly and disinterested inspection, but were also designed so that they never really had to be put together all that carefully. On Spridgets, the axles tend to go before the diffs. I saw no unusual wear patterns, to the naked eye everything looks great, and if it were in a street car, I’d just throw it back in and go.
But taking the dial indicator to it showed it just far enough out that I may have to do something with it.
The backface of the crown gear varied .0035 through a complete rotation – the tight spot, right where I felt the nominal resistance. It’s likely that some of that is just take-up onto the bearing shims. The circumfrance runout was also .0035, corresponding to the tight spot. The pinion turns freely with no funny business or slop.
Lash was .010. Factory spec is .002, but given the great shape of the gears and that I’m trying to lose some rolling resistance, I’m not uncomfortable running that a little loose. Bearings all looked good.
What I plan to do is simply remove the crown gear, clean everything up really well and reassemble it, hoping to better index the crown gear onto the differential cage.
And speaking of pumpkins –
Kate reminded me yesterday that Trick or Treat was this afternoon in our neighborhood, and that she needed help cutting Jack-O-Lanterns. I told her I was already working on a pumpkin, but she didn’t appreciate the joke.
Kate took hours, painstakingly drawing the face and carving her gourd.
I had mine done in 5 minutes . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSC_0019_zps865f9053.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSC_0019_zps865f9053.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSC_0025_zpsbde8cf67.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSC_0025_zpsbde8cf67.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSC_0029_zps59a934d9.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSC_0029_zps59a934d9.jpg.html)
Chris, weren't you thinking about changing the gearing? Now looks to be the perfect time! :evil:
.....except you're not pulling 8K out of it! :evil:
Good luck-I can't wait to see it next year!
Is 4th 1:1?
ATF? I would think synthetic motor oil would provide better lube with minimum drag... 0W20 or 0W30.
Then there's always synthetic ATF. I've done both. Are you looking for ceramic bearings?
Then there's always synthetic ATF. I've done both. Are you looking for ceramic bearings?
Hmmmm . . . I guess I might be.
Don, do you have a source?
What kind of bearings are in the front hubs Chris?
What kind of bearings are in the front hubs Chris?
North by North West :roll:
Got the tow bar on the to-do list?
MG Midget timing BELT system on EBAY right now. Are they a chain from the factory?
MG Midget timing BELT system on EBAY right now.
Was that an aftermarket item or a one-off? What scheme does it have for varying the cam phasing?
Beer Heros. It's a must watch.
Long but wait for the entire download.
Watch<http://www.youtube.com/embed/HG_wfMK7dko?rel=0>
FREUD
... I really think I need to be able to nail the cam adjustment in order to maximize the combination...I think that's true for all of us! :-)
... I would rather check it & set it...My system can be used that way. But the beauty of it is that it takes merely seconds (literally) to set a different cam angle for another dyno pull. The brake on the worm-drive motor is spring-applied and solenoid-released- so with power disconnected, it ain't gonna move!
Chris,
The comment "The farther away from the pump you need to draw the oil, the more power it requires." is not based upon good engineering. The power required to pump a fluid is: HP=GPM x PSI/1714 in a suction situation like a pump inlet the PSI would be the differential pressure to draw the oil into the pump which is a function of the height of the pump above the oil level and also the pressure drop through the inlet tube based upon the fluid's flow rate and specific gravity. Reducing the inlet height by 12 inches would reduce the differential pressure by .35 PSI (assuming that the oil has a spec gravity of .8). So if you screw your pump flow and use .35 psi as the pressure into the HP equation you can see the number is minuscule. Maybe not a place to spend time looking for horsepower.
Rex
Chris,
"minuscule" or "miniscule" I never could spell and my spell check gives the "french" version so that's what you got! and it still says that the British derivation is wrong.
Guess I'll have to polish up on my frog!
Rex
Anybody mention electric water and oil pumps? Saves everything.
Scraper/windage tray: Sometimes hard to see the hp but occasionally significant gains can be had. If you don't have a source already, talk to Kevin Johnson at Ishihara-Johnson (www.crank-scrapers.com). He made a custom one for me. They take some work to get the closest fits but are well done.
Scraper/windage tray: Sometimes hard to see the hp but occasionally significant gains can be had. If you don't have a source already, talk to Kevin Johnson at Ishihara-Johnson (www.crank-scrapers.com). He made a custom one for me. They take some work to get the closest fits but are well done.
Good call - they already build one -
http://www.crank-scrapers.com/BMC.html
Sizing will be a bit different - my crank is custom - but at least I'll know that the pan bolts line up.
Thanks, Jacksoni!
Midget,
No need to re-invent the wheel, er, windage tray. Pictures of their stuff on the site look good. And they probably have some thing for 970S stroke or something close enough for you to do the final fitting. Their prices are really right too. The Teflon coating sheds the oil better than uncoated.
Well, I'm thinking they probably don't have anything for a crank as odd as mine, but they seem okay with custom work, and at least they'll have a template to start with.
Thanks, too, Mark - for pulling me away from this Packer debacle . . .
First off, the oil being reintroduced into the pickup is not as heavily aerated as oil drawn from the pan. Secondly, it permits the oil in the pan more time to dissipate the air that it has accumulated. Third, it makes the system somewhat self priming. 4th, it gives you more pressure on the intake side – pressure above atmospheric - which takes the power you’ve already spent pressurizing the system - the portion that's being bled off - and lowers the power necessary to pull oil back into the pump.
I'm seeing this as a better use of energy wasted, reintroduced to the system as less energy required.
Thanks, too, Mark - for pulling me away from this Packer debacle . . .From where I'm watching, Packers are still in it with 12 minutes to go in the 4th.
:cheers:
Fordboy
IO,Not being an engineer can't really comment on the above other than to say that there is an effect of pressure in the pan on the oil pressure the pump puts out. I think that is clear. However, I think it is also clear that relative pan vacuum is far better for power than pan pressure, thus the use of exhaust driven pan evac systems, good dry sump scavenging systems or plain old vacuum pumps to the pan. Considerable dyno proven power is available with relative pan vacuum. I hear this does get to diminishing returns with very high numbers (over 15" or so) . Dry sumps don't necessarily in an of themselves make more power or use less HP but are considered more reliable in high g force situations- which we do not have to deal with- but would help cooling if, for instance, you had a more marginal coolant system, due to the large oil tank volume and can give some pan vacuum which is beneficial. Dry sumps take room in the engine bay that may be in short supply and are not inexpensive but as you have said, you are down to the high cost per HP gained area, even if they are few.
So – like the bored Rabbi said to the bored Priest, “Let’s have an argument.”
I’m not married to this idea – I’m no engineer – but part of this build diary is to bounce these ideas.
My understanding and my questions.
The pump works by atmospheric pressure on the inlet compared to negative atmosphere created by the pump. In the crankcase, relative high atmospheric pressure is what the pump needs to draw oil to it.
The overflow oil exiting the relief valve still carries pressure in excess of atmospheric, but providing less volume than the demand of the intake of the pump. By directing the oil pressure to the pickup – pressure that would be completely wasted otherwise - the pump sees the equivalent of a higher pressure in the pickup side compared to the atmospheric pressure alone acting on the oil in the sump - thus requiring less power to draw oil.
The demand of the engine is in excess of the oil provided by the overflow, so oil continues to be drawn upward through the column from the pan. The combination of the overflow oil in conjunction to the oil provided by atmospheric pressure causes the pump to see a higher relative pressure in the pickup than would be the case if the pump were only drawing from the sump.
Because the quantity of oil in the sump has less demand on it – lessened by the quantity of oil provided from the oil bypass - it has more time to settle out and release the air in it.
And yes, this is ALL minimal.
Regarding aeration at the bypass valve – where would this air come from? The oil is under positive pressure, and any air in the oil circuit is going to tend to bleed through the path of least resistance, which would include oiling holes on the bearings, the rocker shaft, the cam bearings. If that is already the case, I’ve got bigger problems than where I should route a return line. Directing it to someplace other than the pan, where it is certain to take on air, seems like a better solution than adding it to the milk shake.
Tag - you're it! :cheers:
Borrowed from Steve Maas - his site is http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/
By combining the volume of liquid acted on by atmospheric pressure with the higher pressure fluid being wasted at the bypass, we have a higher relative pressure on the input of the pump than would be provided by atmospheric pressure alone.
Jes' a bunch o' PSI'ing into the wind, if you ask me... :lol:
Sorry... cabin fever setting in.
Hooray, Rex!!
(And my pressure compensated comment was half in jest)
Chris--now you've got it! We may have saved you a certain amount of time, effort, and money and provided a degree of enlightenment and/or confusion.
... a pressure compensated pump would be a better pump is correct in theory but it is very difficult to get a pressure compensated pump to run well below about 100 psi...Rex- sounds like you're the person to respond to this: I've always praised the performance of the front pump in old GM Dual Range HydraMatic transmissions. It's a variable-displacement vane pump driven directly at crankshaft speed, and does an admirable job of coping with the flow-rate fluctuations of the hydraulic circuits under widely varied demands. Hundreds of beefed-up examples (called 'HydroStick") survived dragstrip use (in the sixties)- many in 10,000 RPM blown 'gassers'. I've often wondered how well a pump of this design (with appropriate maximum displacement) would work as an engine oil pump? It certainly would attain the efficiency being sought by 'Midget'. And for a wet-sump configuration, the whole pump could be submersed in the oil supply- thus minimizing aeration.
... I was a hydraulic pump application engineer for the Denison Pump division of the Parker Hannifin Corp for 15 years
Hooray, Rex!!
(And my pressure compensated comment was half in jest)
Chris--now you've got it! We may have saved you a certain amount of time, effort, and money and provided a degree of enlightenment and/or confusion.
Or an opportunity to have a little fun? :roll:
Actually, what's happened is that I've been driven to the point of distraction :-D -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5318_zps1902998d.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN5318_zps1902998d.jpg.html)
I broke one of the "T"s testing the pump, but I plan on stopping at the tropical fish store after work tomorrow.
It's my hope that the gauge on the charger is sensitive enough to detect changes in current flow - otherwise, I'm looking for a manometer.
And I promise I will post the results.
If the rules allow an electric pump, why wouldn't you? Water pump too. Dragging the big battery around probably would be less then the gain from the friction reduction.
Not beat, clearly old, but with a nice patina on it – very functional and in great physical shape, priced about right. I passed on it, despite needing storage for my ever increasing number of micrometers, dial indicators, radius gauges, calipers, etc.
Well, there WAS a leather and pewter umbrella stand full of sledge hammers at the antique shop - maybe I should exchange it? :wink:
...This is why a convention has been adopted for dealing with otherwise ambiguous arithmetic expressions. Evaluating this in stages according to the operator precedence and left-to-right criteria....
...HP= 10 x 1714/ 1714/(.5)....
Would not recommend an electric lubricatiion pump for a couple reasons;
1. no oil flow because of a blown fuse/broken wire/ missed switch in starting sequence etc will cause a dead engine very quickly
2. Volume requirement is engine rpm related
I think Fordboy's on life support.
Wow - a classic, old school running game on a field of frozen, brown grass in 20 degree weather - and snowflakes to boot!
It could have gone either way - the difference being a forward fumble out of the pocket to a confused Boykin.
I expect I'll have to go talk my friend south of the Cheddar Curtain out of his tree . . . :wink:
Yeah, give him a call. I'd run 'em down to you.
I'd even spring to see what the C&S head flowed - It'd be nice to know if I have someone local like Mel who might have "the knack".
Do I need to order up a pair of anti reversion valves for testing?
Will do flow work as soon as other valves are available for testing. Will probably flow the F/Production heads first, since all the bits are at hand.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Will do flow work as soon as other valves are available for testing. Will probably flow the F/Production heads first, since all the bits are at hand.
:cheers:
Fordboy
WARNING - IMPENDING DATA DUMP!
:cheers:
WARNING - IMPENDING DATA DUMP!
:cheers:
I was at the classic car club and walked by the fridge.
You immediately came to mind so I snapped a shot of the fare on hand.
Perhaps, Chris, you should go back and read your Ken Purdy, seems to me that wrote of a solution to this problem. :mrgreen:
Mike
I was at the classic car club and walked by the fridge.
You immediately came to mind so I snapped a shot of the fare on hand.
The old sages said you'd be most welcome to visit, talk classic English (cars) and share the brews. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Next holiday?
We don't really have wild animals walking down the streets, well not during working hours. :-D
Back in the 1980s, when I lived in North Prairie, wore a mullet and drove my first MGB through rain, sleet, wind and one of the coldest winters on record, I picked up a little magnetic heater that stuck to the oil pan. You'd plug it in, and the grease would turn to oil. Magical, although I doubt it ever got me close to operating temperature.
Possibly installing a 120 V, 1500 watt water heater element in the pan?
Chris;
Yes, it takes longer with a 400W heater than with a 1500W heater but ruining the oil in the process is not a good tradeoff.
We used the patch-style heater on the dry sump tank of Bob Peckham's M8C back in the '72-'73 Can-Am days. We left the heater on overnight and the oil was toasty warm the next day. If you need to get the temperature up faster, put two 400W heat patches on. In the industrial line, those types of heaters are available with a built-in thermostat-- handy to prevent accidental over-heating.
A heating patch can also be used on the differential housing to warm up the rear end lube.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Couple of thoughts (yes, I do have them once in a while).
At SpeedWeek, the problem is lesser for the qualifying run. You come from your pit where you might have everything handy, and usually run in 90º temps after towing the vehicle a few miles. With your backup run from Impound, things are a little different. It's colder. The tow is shorter. And Chris ain't gonna get to the long course for a while, so he's not taking advantage of "running in" for four miles.
I don't know of 220V available in Impound, either.
Well, the salt opens at 6 or whenever Dan or some other official gets there, but I'm thinking that if you needed to get in earlier -- it'd take one heck of a lot of donuts and coffee for Lynda's crew. But it might be possible. Raised, jelly-filled, and custard-filled are perennial favorites, and good coffee (truck stop coffee is about as good as can be!) are all suggested. And it still might not work. Dan doesn't get swayed by beer that early in the morning. Not 'til more like late morning, usually -- say, 6.30AM. :evil:
I've left beverages for Dan at the Goose, but it's never clear as to whether or not he gets there in time to enjoy them.
I've left beverages for Dan at the Goose, but it's never clear as to whether or not he gets there in time to enjoy them.
Oh, ooops :oops:......... I thought it said "Don", so I drank them.... I struggled to read that Teut' script you'd written on them.
Don, you owe Dan a beer or two. :cheers:
We got lots of satisfaction from beating them and others who ran big $$$ efforts. If a Can-Am car was not well-prepared it had little chance of finishing, much less placing near the top-- but this applies to all types of racing.
Can-Am was a Golden Age, Grasshopper. :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I've left beverages for Dan at the Goose, but it's never clear as to whether or not he gets there in time to enjoy them.
Oh, ooops :oops:......... I thought it said "Don", so I drank them.... I struggled to read that Teut' script you'd written on them.
Don, you owe Dan a beer or two. :cheers:
Apologies for the thread hijack.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Hi guys, been in hiding, too hot here :-P, weather's just broken, aah cooler :cheers:
Last set of valves I bought in UK, I actually got them off Paul Ivey himself, Race Engine Components (REC) I think they make the anti reversionary (Rimflow) valves a la Vizard too, but can be heavy... REC now seem to be combined with G&S : http://www.gsvalves.co.uk/race-engine-components.html , Paul may have retired? Some good info on material specs there. I think you can source as good quality in the US ?
MED: http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related have reduced stem (6mm) valves and titanium retainers http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related/med-competition-valves-s6-stem, can't say I've used them, but maybe Steve, or Lee his son there might weigh some for you?
You may be aware of all this, but I thought I'd add it to the discussion! :-D
Hi guys, been in hiding, too hot here :-P, weather's just broken, aah cooler :cheers:
Last set of valves I bought in UK, I actually got them off Paul Ivey himself, Race Engine Components (REC) I think they make the anti reversionary (Rimflow) valves a la Vizard too, but can be heavy... REC now seem to be combined with G&S : http://www.gsvalves.co.uk/race-engine-components.html , Paul may have retired? Some good info on material specs there. I think you can source as good quality in the US ?
MED: http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related have reduced stem (6mm) valves and titanium retainers http://www.med-engineering.co.uk/catalogue/cylinder-head/valves-related/med-competition-valves-s6-stem, can't say I've used them, but maybe Steve, or Lee his son there might weigh some for you?
You may be aware of all this, but I thought I'd add it to the discussion! :-D
My advice? . . . know your brewer by their first name!!! :wink:
It's a rye night, tonight.
Hard to believe, but it's TOO COLD in MILWAUKEE to DRINK BEER!
Templeton - neat - no chaser.
My advice? . . . know your brewer by their first name!!! :wink:
AND your distiller . . . the guy's name is Guy . . . so that's easy . . . even after you've had a few of his cocktails.
Chris, did you know the midget made the GNRS Bonneville book page 284. You are in great company! :cheers:
The cape Canaveral comment was priceless! :cheers:
Chris, did you know the midget made the GNRS Bonneville book page 284. You are in great company! :cheers:
Chris, did you know the midget made the GNRS Bonneville book page 284. You are in great company! :cheers:
Woody,
Is that the "Century of Speed" book?
:cheers:
F/B
I'm pretty slow, Boy, in deciphering this. What's what? Or what?
Chris;Neil,
Re: "They prefer to see sprung retainers in the adjusters."
What are sprung retainers?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Chris;Neil,
Re: "They prefer to see sprung retainers in the adjusters."
What are sprung retainers?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I think the reference is to a wire spring that keeps the knurled bar in the belt adjuster pressed against the belt.
Jim
I'm pretty slow, Boy, in deciphering this. What's what? Or what?
Patience Grasshopper, patience.
It's a rye night, tonight.
Picked up a bottle of this - #253 of 544 produced - saving it for Speedweek -
http://www.greatlakesdistillery.com/spirits/menomonee-valley-rye/?age-verified=ad8cf7ea36
It's a rye night, tonight.
Picked up a bottle of this - #253 of 544 produced - saving it for Speedweek -
http://www.greatlakesdistillery.com/spirits/menomonee-valley-rye/?age-verified=ad8cf7ea36
Saving :? Surely you tasted it to ensure it is good enough for your friends to drink...
quite tasty
Seems Chris has been distracted. I hoped he would find a way to get some rye my way and he has been working on it:
http://news.yahoo.com/craft-brewer-39-drone-delivery-hopes-put-ice-223417847.html
How's that Lakemaid?
Geo
Patience Grasshopper, patience.
I thought I had graduated from "Grasshopper", to some other higher form arthropod.
So Chris how were the tacos? :-D :-D :-D
Patience Grasshopper, patience.
I thought I had graduated from "Grasshopper", to some other higher form arthropod.
Patience, Cicada, patience.
Perhaps "Milwaukee Midget"
I'll stick with Milwaukee Midget, or Pommy Pygmy, I'll insist on capitalization, and nobody is going to call me a "Sea Monkey".
:cheers:
Reminds me of a funny story. When Ed and I were having dinner at the truck stop next to the Oquirrh motel on the outskirts of Salt Lake, we noticed that both fish and shrimp were on the menu. We asked the poor waitress if either of these selections were from the Lake. She didn't know the answer........... :cheers:
Tom
And we wonder why we are getting our as*es kicked in math, science and other "practical matters".
And we wonder why we are getting our as*es kicked in math, science and other "practical matters".
Let's ask an All American Girl . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO0cvqT1tAE
Only way to find out is dyno, dyno, dyno and a lot of cam blanks turned to grinding dust..... ($$$+= oops)
The problem with making A-B runs at El Mirage is the extreme differences you're liable to find in course conditions, wind direction and velocity along with temperature variations from month to month.
MM, I know you and FB are familiar with these guys as you mention flowing one of their heads somewhere in here. And that FB designed your cam ( I think) but they are talking well over 100hp/L in their engines with the bigger cams (bigger cam in small engine not always correct) but anyway just wondering if you have played with any other profiles. Dynothon showed 95hp? Have you ever run your engine through Pipemax to look at the header specs?
http://www.swiftune.com/Page/2/About-Us.aspx
Mark is - as I write - flowing my head with the complete intake - including the carb - and stubs for exhaust. There are 5 other racing heads he has flowed this last month. One is a relatively untouched Swiftune head, the other Swiftune was butchered by a nameless shop, one was cut by my guys at C&S in Milwaukee, one is a Longman of unknown origin, and I'm not sure of the other one. He's also testing my head with anti reversion exhaust valves. So a raft of information will be coming our way probably by next Monday, and will help us chart engine development for this year.
Too tired even for a beer . . . . .
cry
Fordboy
WOW! YES!! PREPARE YOURSELF, FOR THE END OF THE WORLD MUST BE NEAR!! (and I'm not a Mayan . . . . .)
Don't know a lot but what little I have gleaned over the past few years messing with my current engine tells me that
1) CFM is not the be all end all (port velocities, Yes. Usually, someone who thinks he has too much flow, merely has parts sized improperly.
the valve job, Yes. I am constantly amazed by the guys who think valve seat shape/valve shape does not matter!! I've done some back to back flow testing on MM's head, testing valve shape only. The results are an eye opener for those in the throes of evolution denial.
and so many other things Yes
have an impact on how the engine performs) Yes. As I'm fond of saying: "It's complicated."
and 2) a perfectly good head can be really screwed up by someone (local expert) "tinkering with it", hogging it out or many other things Yes, I see this all the time!! Racers are just too "optimisty" and the folks doing the "work" are glib. Most of the time, as in my example, the shops doing the "improvements" do not have a dyno or flow bench. They convince their clients that they somehow, "know", what is needed. Call me a skeptic/non-believer/infidel, BUT, I want to see NUMBERS. BEFORE & AFTER . . . .
and 3) dyno helps a lot but does not say for sure how it is going to go down the track. Well, it depends on how the "dyno testing" is done. You are correct in saying that "steady state" and/or "step" testing is not representative of how an engine runs on the track. But, there are programmable dynos that control both load & throttle opening. These can be used to accurately simulate "laps" of a particular track. The results from these dynos are representative of how your engine will perform on that track. Must guys do not have access to one of these . . . . . and so have to use a more "basic" method. This, in and of itself, isn't such a bad thing. BUT, it will probably require some "track tuning" to get everything working properly.
For instance, a very respected engine builder/head guy whom I have alluded to previously says, in essence, a connecting rod is to attach the piston to the crank and it's length is of no real significance along with the rod/stroke ratio. This is not my experience. The differences in engine geometry created by changing the rod length/stroke ratio impact several significant engine variables. (BTW, not trying to be negative about this engine guy. I'm sure that he (like me) has definite opinions about a lot of things.)
He has shown on many dyno tests changing only the rod ratio that there is no power advantage high or low ratio. (there may be some minor friction differences due to thrust effects). Again, not my experience. If all he did was change the rod length/pistons, and did not change/optimize other engine "events", I would not expect to see much difference in bhp. Maybe +/- 1%. And if the dyno is not accurate, AND repeatable, it becomes very difficult to find/validate 1%. The peak bhp may NOT be much different "short" rod Vs "long" rod, but the shapes of the torque/bhp curves will definitely be different. The guy with the larger "area under the curve" is typically the guy who wins. And we are not yet discussing whether or not the "shape of the curve", is in the rpm range where it is needed . . . . .
There are innumerable people who say rod ratio is important including folks who design camshafts, for instance , and drivers looking at how a car comes off a corner or accelerates. Both true.
The difference, (my understanding here) is a static vs a dynamic one. Steady state HP on a dyno may be far different than how an engine behaves throughout an RPM range going down or around a track. (mostly drag here and circle track). The rate of acceleration required for the type of racing is extremely important. If steady state bhp was the only important factor, nobody would care about component mass (weight).
Bonneville fits more in steady state realm of things. I would characterize B'ville as a low rate of acceleration, [in the top gear(s)], maybe 50/100 rpm/second or less. If you are steady state, you are "topped out". Let's face it, at B'ville, eventually everything goes "steady state", although I do not think that is the goal.
And the MM engine, like mine, has certain physical characteristics that cannot readily be changed. And that's why "It's complicated". Sorry, not trying to be a jerk. Dealing within the constraints of the original "packaging" of the components can be quite the challenge. Most engine guys are NOT very good at it.
Number of years back while I was trying to dyno a prior engine, a couple had one of your BMC engines on the same dyno trying to find that hp or two you are looking for. They were at 100 + or - and played and played, maybe out of my sight got a few more but I understand what you are up against. It would be interesting to know more about the engine specs or perhaps the PHP engine #, if it was prior to 1995.
Mr FB, I agree with all you have said and think is great you and Mr Midget are able to work together on this. I will continue to follow and occasionally pipe up as the mood strikes. cheers Thanks! BTW, I know MM invites all comments. Look at the cr*p he puts up with from me!
Also: It was my dad who was Mr. I'm just Mark/Fordboy/the dumbas* making a racket with the flow bench. As my mood suits me . . . . :-D
So yeah, it's not likely you'll ever see a "bathtub rebuild at the Super 8" story from me - I'm a romantic, but I'm not THAT romantic.
The dyno session I was referring to was in the range of 20 years ago. Though that shop is closed the owner still does some machine work from shop in the back of his house. He may remember and if you really want to know I will ask him. He still does machining for me. Whats a PHP#?
Jack
So it’s fair to say that all of these prepped heads are okay to decent, despite being maximized to different standards with different techniques.
What’s also important is to remember that the air requirements of the engine, due to its diminished capacity, are much less than would be the case if I were running a 1275/1310.
What I’m seeing that I like is that in virtually every comparison, I’m a bit ahead of the others in all but one case in low lift flow up to ~.300 lift.
By the time I bought a Swiftune head, shaved it to the point that it had small enough chambers to be of any help, I think I’d be hard pressed to justify the cost or demonstrate an advantage on the dyno.
If we compare ANY of these heads to the stock unit, we see dramatic increases in flow. Let’s assume that the stock head was flowed at 25”, the comparator would be about 5% more, we’re still looking at about 30% more CFM across the range. Even the sarcastically “new and improved” Swiftune head is a 25% increase over stock.
Just stumbled across this one. Syd Enever was the driving force behind the MGA and the MGB, and involved with the racing program with MG for years.
Either his son or his grandson came across this 8mm home movie of the 1957 Bonneville trip. You'll see George Eyston, and I think that's Phil Hill's ice blue MGA pulling into the parking lot of the motel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BHtqKuRe0
Just stumbled across this one. Syd Enever was the driving force behind the MGA and the MGB, and involved with the racing program with MG for years.
Either his son or his grandson came across this 8mm home movie of the 1957 Bonneville trip. You'll see George Eyston, and I think that's Phil Hill's ice blue MGA pulling into the parking lot of the motel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BHtqKuRe0
Way cool!!
One of the guys around the team looks like Joe Huffaker Sr. Is that possible?
:cheers:
F/B
Just stumbled across this one. Syd Enever was the driving force behind the MGA and the MGB, and involved with the racing program with MG for years.
Either his son or his grandson came across this 8mm home movie of the 1957 Bonneville trip. You'll see George Eyston, and I think that's Phil Hill's ice blue MGA pulling into the parking lot of the motel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BHtqKuRe0
Way cool!!
One of the guys around the team looks like Joe Huffaker Sr. Is that possible?
:cheers:
F/B
He'd have been 29 in 1957, and had already built an AH special - might well be him.
He'd developed a name for himself in the Bay area as a builder/racer to be reckoned with. 1957 was a joint effort with AH and MG.
They shared expenses and track prep costs, but made their own newsreels.
The EX 179 was the first A-Series engined car to take to the Salt Flats. This was an early version of the 949, and ran under the "BMC" logo that year - early development for the Sprite that Healey wanted to keep tucked under his hat - thus, no AH designation.
Roy Jackson-Moore was a field rep for BMC out of San Francisco - he knows Joe and co-drove with Shelby, Healey and Goodall in '54 in a 100.
None of this would surprise me.
Airflow testing porn!
midget,
New airflow toys, courtesy of the Polish Fabrication & Ale Testing Workshop, Woodworking Division . . . . . . . .
More toys!!
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2738_zps1bb451f9.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2738_zps1bb451f9.jpg.html)
Fordboy
More toys!!
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2738_zps1bb451f9.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2738_zps1bb451f9.jpg.html)
Fordboy
OOOOOOHH! A metal plate for my head.
Now the aliens won't know what I'm thinking . . .
I am NOT paranoid - they really ARE out to get me . . .
The small building on the far side of the street, across from the motel, was the port of entry for trucks. Still in use in 77 that I know of because the interstate still wasn't done over the hill. PITA to run through there with triples but they required it.
Ron
The testing supervisor suggests a different colour choice for the cylinder head. Something less sinister, blob-like and "Porta-Potty"-ish . . . . perhaps "Testa Rossa"?
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Flowmonkey
The testing supervisor suggests a different colour choice for the cylinder head. Something less sinister, blob-like and "Porta-Potty"-ish . . . . perhaps "Testa Rossa"?
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Flowmonkey
I don't speak Italian, and unless it has a trailer hitch, I've got no use for a Ferrari. Simpletonian economics dictates BMCs and Mopars.
Here's some competition more inline with the economic expenditure I'm willing to blow on racing at this point in my life, see what you think . . . . . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU-KMsc45lM
Enzo from Modena
Oh, and some guy, Frank something or other, says he wants his copper bolts and his chicken-head switch back. He says you would know what he is talking about.
:cheers:
Fordboy
That little guy that was helping him - sweetheart of a guy - did he ever go in to get his Kyphosis properly diagnosed?
Abby Normal
"That little guy..." Hans Delbruck? :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
It’s all the stupid little things – that’s about all I’ve got left to work with as far as wringing out the grenade.
Nice work!! Have you considered a career in Professional Origami?
But really, now - you've got to stop talking to your SCCA buddies while bathing . . .
251 ENG
PS that was my inline 970 crank on ebay all those years ago , small world
Hello all
Came to this build diary about 2 weeks ago for a link on the mk1performance site , it seams to have stolen all my free time since :-D( thanks Graham )
What a fantastic project , I am involved with the A series in a small way and have found this build most interesting .
If you are looking in fit bigger cam followers in your block there is one fitted to the Hillman Hunter that is 0.875" ( from memory ) . Thanks. This will help if the size is right.
This is slightly smaller than the MGC one . MGC is .936/.9365". Based on the limited amount of block inspection done, this size will be very difficult to fit to 'A' Series blocks.
They need shortening to use or can be purchased from Calver ST in the uk . Also I believe the angle in the block is 2 degrees from vertical and they are set on the centre line of the cam . I have not measured a block yet, but Vizard's book lists the lifter angle as 2.5 degrees.
The current Swiftune heads are produced for there own new castings and priced at £2750 :-o Yikes!! That's $4,565 in USD, before shipping & duty . . . . .
Both Weslake and Arden 8 port heads were sold by BMC / Leyland as a special tuning part . The Iron weslake is very prone to cracking between valves and water leaks ( I once repaired one with 17 :-o) . Weslake did start a project to remake them in about 2-3 years ago but this may not now happen. There was also a guy in Texas with s Sebring sprite that tooled up and had some made in alloy , I think he only made 10 for himself and didn,t want to do any more which is a shame. I'm pretty sure this is the guy my client purchased his parts from.
Ardens are available new from Minspares .
Hope this is of some help
251 ENG
PS that was my inline 970 crank on ebay all those years ago , small world
Fordboy's been talking mushroom tappets, but the Hillman pieces might be an option. He was looking at a cutaway 1275 block a while back, and the MGC tappets clearly weren't going to work.
Mark - is .875 an option?
Ill start off by saying I know nothing about these engines at all. Something I stumbled on building 428 Cobrajet drag race engines might be worth a try. There may be nothing there but you never know. Try bolting the block plate with a head gasket to the head with the valves & springs on it and pour solvent in the ports to see if any of them leak out the valves. I found on the 428s that the 2 end exhaust valves leaked. After that we did the valve job with the block plate bolted on & solved the problem. Might be nothing there but it doesn't cost anything and you never know
We have a torque plate for valve seat cutting that originally came from Manx racing . Its a steel flame cut and at least 4 inches thick . :-o :-o
Ill start off by saying I know nothing about these engines at all. Something I stumbled on building 428 Cobrajet drag race engines might be worth a try. There may be nothing there but you never know. Try bolting the block plate with a head gasket to the head with the valves & springs on it and pour solvent in the ports to see if any of them leak out the valves. I found on the 428s that the 2 end exhaust valves leaked. After that we did the valve job with the block plate bolted on & solved the problem. Might be nothing there but it doesn't cost anything and you never know
We have a torque plate for valve seat cutting that originally came from Manx racing . Its a steel flame cut and at least 4 inches thick . :-o :-o
Had a great visit with Mr. and Mrs. Fordboy yesterday. Kate and I picked up a pile of roasted Mexican veggies and some tortillas, did a table top buffet and made gluttons of ourselves. Mark introduced me to a Mexican ale with a touch of chili pepper in it, and it had a very cool cedar finish to it. I liked it well enough that I can't remember the name . . .
And while the ladies chatted, we went to the offices of the illustrious Lake Villa air flow research and Brit-bit development center, aka, the basement, and compared flow bench charts with the actual heads he's been checking for me and other customers. Fascinating stuff.
How many times do I have to remind you? It's called the: DUNGEON LABORATORY!! (Basement sounds so . . . suburban . . . . . . You know I'm workin' real hard here to create a "mad scientist" image. Basement, sheesh . . . . .)
:evil: :evil: :evil:
Eyegore
How many times do I have to remind you? It's called the: DUNGEON LABORATORY!! (Basement sounds so . . . suburban . . . . . . You know I'm workin' real hard here to create a "mad scientist" image. Basement, sheesh . . . . .)
:evil: :evil: :evil:
Eyegore
Until you invest in a Bunsen burner, a boat load of test tubes, a Tesla coil and a Jacobs ladder, well . . . let's face it . . . the Buret is a nice start, but Lake Villa is NOT Transylvania.
From your friend at the Pommy Pygmy Playhouse. :cheers:
Jon,
Is this what you are looking for? http://hbarsci.com/products/ph0920a?gclid=CPjO2r2l5bwCFW9p7AodK08AjA
Doug :evil: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
As for fitting a Rover K series , do you know what the K stands for ? :-D
K is for
KETTLE :-D :-D
A container for boiling water
:-D :-D
Just out of interest are any of the heads you are testing offset valve ones ?
Another mad scientist . . . . . . .[/size][/i][/b]
http://russellengineering.com.au/performance-cylinder-heads/
Resistance is futile earthlings . . . . . . . . Prepare to be disintegrated! Er, flowtested?!?
:evil: :evil: :evil:
Eyegore
Fordboy you are correct , tappet angle is 2.5 degrees , we normally open up the tops of all the pushrod holes to 1/2" x 1" deep on competition engines.
Hello all
Interesting finding with regard to the flow of the heads , any chance of some pictures of the heads ? Yes. Have some shots that I will post up soon. Obviously the chamber shape will be apparent, but it's sort of difficult to take meaningful pics of the port & seat shapes. I'm not intending to "section" any of these heads as they are still in use.
I once had a slark 12G 940 that had 38.5mm / 31mm valves , although the inlet valve is massive throat size was not huge . Not surprising. The ports with the best low-lift flow have 'venturi' shaped valve seats of approximately .85*valve dia.
MED do some nice heads . Have a damaged one to test. Will post results.
Thats my OZ " stash " gone then :-D Pity.
So, we saw some traffic coming our way from this post and I was curious as to what products a Landracing Forum was interested in. VdG huh? Pretty awesome stuff!Jon,
Is this what you are looking for? http://hbarsci.com/products/ph0920a?gclid=CPjO2r2l5bwCFW9p7AodK08AjA
Doug :evil: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Thanks Buickguy3!!
It's EXACTLY what is needed to 'shock' MM back to reality . . . . . . .
Although I do have an old magneto laying around somewhere . . . . . . . . .
:evil: :evil: :evil:
Eyegore
So, we saw some traffic coming our way from this post and I was curious as to what products a Landracing Forum was interested in. VdG huh? Pretty awesome stuff!
(If any of you guys actually want one, send me a PM on here or email at service@hbarsci.com -- I can discount one for you.. or any of other products for that matter)
Hello all
Glad to be of help
Fordboy , would be interested to see how the valve sizes compare to port throat sizes and what secondary angles/radi have been cut either side of the valve seats . I am accumulating that info now and will post it after it is tabulated. In general though, head pockets ported all the way to the base of the 45 degree seat, (both in & ex) flow poorly. Heads with seats with a 'bottoming' angle or radius flow better. People porting these heads need to read a book on airflow dynamics . . . . .
Have you ever used CNC ported heads ? I would if I could get one!! Have inquired to CNCheads.co.uk MANY times about price & availability of their LISTED heads for 'A' & 'B' series. To date, NO RESPONSE.
Another mad scientist . . . . . . .[/size][/i][/b]
http://russellengineering.com.au/performance-cylinder-heads/
Thought you'd like Graham (Russells) Stuff F/Boy / Igor / ?
I remember seeing an interview with Rusty Wallace when he drove for Penske. He said they spent $5,000,000 on cylinder head research in one year.
Ron
Fordboy , would be interested to see how the valve sizes compare to port throat sizes and what secondary angles/radi have been cut either side of the valve seats .
Making port core samples of a good cylinder head.
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2779_zps36df60d4.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2779_zps36df60d4.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2780_zps578fa922.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2780_zps578fa922.jpg.html)
What a mess!! Sure hope the mold release works . . . . . . . Gee, what else would this be good for?
:cheers:
Foamyboy
Have seen some folks recommend this stuff. Have you tried it?
http://www.uscomposites.com/moldmaking.html
Mark, are you sure those aren't leftovers from a freshman biology class experiment in dissection? :|
A for Australopithecus. :)
I think with her size Lucy would be a good fit for the various MG conveyances, and she did hail from Ethiopia. Drs. Louis and Mary Leakey were Kenyan and worked primarily in the Olduvai gorge which is in northern Tanzania. Were just in the area last July but didn't get to Olduvai. On my list. :-)
A for Australopithecus. :)
A for Australopithecus. :)
Australopithecus Spiff-a-reno?
A for Australopithecus. :)
Australopithecus Spiff-a-reno?
I've never made a mould, but would like to make one for a 1932 Austin 7 sidevalve, so I'm watching with interest, and am happy for you to take the pain :-D
Anyway, I'm sure I've seen moulds where the latex(or whatever it was) was just painted over the surface in a suitable thickness rather than filled to make a solid mould.
Andy
A for Australopithecus. :)
Australopithecus Spiff-a-reno?
http://www.suslik.org/Humour/General/general4.html
The true story behind this, (I first became aware of this decades ago) is that this nutjob from New Jersey, keeps sending crap from his backyard to the Smithsonian Institution.
Keep this in mind, next time you have to handle someone in a diplomatic manner . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Diplomacyboy
I've never made a mould, but would like to make one for a 1932 Austin 7 sidevalve, so I'm watching with interest, and am happy for you to take the pain :-D
Anyway, I'm sure I've seen moulds where the latex(or whatever it was) was just painted over the surface in a suitable thickness rather than filled to make a solid mould.
Andy
This method would probably work for you. It is however, labor intensive, which is why I did not use it.
http://www.diyporting.com/molds.html
:cheers:
Lazyflowmonkey
This method would probably work for you. It is however, labor intensive, which is why I did not use it.
http://www.diyporting.com/molds.html
:cheers:
Lazyflowmonkey
thanks, that's exactly what I'd recalled :)
Chris - yep, the 7 is much like the T. As you suggest it's the inlet that's difficult, they're siamesed and T shaped, no concession to shaping. The valves are 1", the throats and ports are too big, and everything is kinda squared off. I put it on my flow bench and compared the results to a standard A series 850 head. They're pretty much the same to about 4mm lift, then the 7 just stops flowing any more. No idea why the sports cams have 9.5mm lift, even the standard cam has 6... I'd be happy to make it flow like an 850 :)
Andy
FB- How about this one? : (this quote from my buddy Darin at RMRE)
"I found the distributor for the mold compound I use. Its been many years since I had to reorder. The shelf life on this stuff is about a year. Its much better than Blue-sil or any other compounds I have ever used. I have molds that are six years old and still hold there shape.
GL-1000
Go to this web site.
http://www.silicones-inc.com/conden.htm "
Mark, I had a thought.
If you were to take a highly compressible foam - I'm thinking disposable ear plugs - use the RTV method, and after the 3rd coat, fill the rest of the port with these RTV covered ear plugs, you might be able to maintain the shape and still have enough flexibility to pull the plugs out.
Or have I not had enough coffee yet? :roll:
" Putting 10 pounds of mud in a 5 pound bag CAN be done - Dolly Parton comes to mind "
You're KIDDING, right? I've been fooled all of these years? :cry:
Only problem was that I had lots of plaster to grind into, but there's no aluminum where I wanted to port the real head.
As far as making the port molds, I just googled "making molds of engine ports" and came up with a ton of pictures and vendors.
Have you tried to open the .prj file with something like hexedit? I'm sure you're right about the .cpp file, but you never know....
On the siamesed ports, any chance of doing 2 partial casts, trimming and bonding for a result? Wayno
On the siamesed ports, any chance of doing 2 partial casts, trimming and bonding for a result? Wayno
If the urethane foam casts don't work out, then a 2 piece urethane rubber mold will probably be the next effort. I really don't like the idea of the hollow moldings because over time they deteriorate badly.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Of possible interest to other BMC racers:adjustable tension is good for the reasons you mention but I don't see ready adjustability of cam timing, ala Jesel belt drives for instance. Is that hidden on the back side of the cam pulley somehow that we can't see here?
Check out this belt drive setup. It is the first one I've seen with an adjustable tensioning device. Readers may recall all the effort MM went through to try and install a tensioner on his adjustable chain drive for the cam.
The problem is that when a machine shop line bores or line hones your block and main caps, the distance between the crankshaft and camshaft centerlines usually gets reduced, providing slack in the chain or belt . . . . . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2786_zpsc5f9e052.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2786_zpsc5f9e052.jpg.html) (http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2785_zpsd17b329c.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2785_zpsd17b329c.jpg.html)
I believe this item is from Dave Wells in the UK. No idea on price, but if you have slack in your drive belt for the aforementioned reasons, this item might be: priceless!!
3 piece cam wheel - slotted with a threaded backing plate.OK, I got it. the jesel I use is 2 piece. Was pretty sure there must be some way, just didn't get it looking at the pictures.
I believe the cover has a finger on it that holds the oblong slot against a spring in the wheel assembly.
BTW, does anybody know why an image edited on Photobucket loses the editing when the image is imported into this website? I rotated this photo 90 degrees so it would be a vertical image. You see what happened . . . . .
:? :? :? :? :?
apparentlynotphotoboy
Of possible interest to other BMC racers:
Check out this belt drive setup. It is the first one I've seen with an adjustable tensioning device. Readers may recall all the effort MM went through to try and install a tensioner on his adjustable chain drive for the cam.
The problem is that when a machine shop line bores or line hones your block and main caps, the distance between the crankshaft and camshaft centerlines usually gets reduced, providing slack in the chain or belt . . . . . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2786_zpsc5f9e052.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2786_zpsc5f9e052.jpg.html) (http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2785_zpsd17b329c.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2785_zpsd17b329c.jpg.html)
I believe this item is from Dave Wells in the UK. No idea on price, but if you have slack in your drive belt for the aforementioned reasons, this item might be: priceless!!
BTW, does anybody know why an image edited on Photobucket loses the editing when the image is imported into this website? I rotated this photo 90 degrees so it would be a vertical image. You see what happened . . . . .
:? :? :? :? :?
apparentlynotphotoboy
Hey Freud, with Photoshop will I be able to put a donkey's head on all the pictures of my brother? I'm needing some closure on this or I'm gonna hafta borrow an AR16 from my cousin . . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Photoshop works backwards. Your brothers head will appear on the hind end of the donkey.
If you don't want a mixed color, use a white donkey.
FREUD
midget,
Any word on the x-files? No micro-film please, transfer by 3.5" diskette, as mandated by Comrade Putin.
Da Svidaniya
Boris
Hi Simon, yes, I think that's what's referred to as improving the short turn radius, if the port is too big, better to fill it in an improve flow velocity and if the radius is then able to be less severe (and less turbulent) on the short turn, all the better!
How did I do Fordboy, am I learning?? :-D YES
The thread on a stick thing, is this to observe where the flow is going whilst actually on the flow bench, YES I.E. attached flow is better than detached turbulent flow?
:-D :-D
Just out of interest are any of the heads you are testing offset valve ones ?
Yes. Both Swiftune heads use 1.48" inlet valves combined with 1.22" exhaust valves. As this combination will not fit the standard valve spacing dimension, I suspect the exhaust valve has been offset by the usual .050".
Midget's Longman head uses a 1.48" x 1.15" valve combo. I'm pretty sure it is at the standard spacing.
The other Longman head uses a1.48" x 1.22" valve combo. Would have to suspect that it also has an offset on exhaust.
When I get some time this week, I'll measure the valve spacing centerlines for several of the heads I've been flow testing and post up the results.
I could see that having a negative impact on compression. :cry:
But Mark, this challenges the accepted adages, the common knowledge, the benchmarks, the standards that all racers know to be true . . .
1 - "Bigger is ALWAYS better!"
You sure it's not a secret transfer port? :-D
How about some Ni-rod? Works for me.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
How about some Ni-rod? Works for me.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I agree Doug. If the head has enough material to completely remachine I'm sure I could repair it with a complete preheat to red but it would likely cause some distortion. Otherwise I'd sure try a conventional localized repair.
Pete
Fordboy/Midget:
Doing the calculations with the parameters as listed below, the results are also as listed below. While the frontal area, drag coefficient, and driveline efficiency are estimates, they seem to be reasonable values, and show that the actual results from the salt can be consistent with predictions. (Previous encounters with Bonneville Pro here on the forum have shown it to be less than confidence inspiring.)
After Speed Weeks last year you guys vowed to distill the area and drag coefficient from the results, but I don’t remember ever seeing them. Did this ever get done, or is it considered proprietary info?
So, for what it’s worth:
Speed 118.7 mph
Area 15 sq-ft
Cd 0.45
Aero drag 215 lb
Weight 1810 lb
Tire pressure 60 psi
Rolling drag 28 lb
Total drag 243 lb
Hp aero 68
Hp rolling 9
Hp total 77
Driveline eff. 0.9
Engine Hp at Bonneville 85.6
Engine Hp at Sea Level 93.4
Sum, my computer will not open that file?
Sum, my computer will not open that file?
Can you save it? It is in excel format. I used the free Open Office software to generate it and download it.
Scottie had a similar sounding problem and I sent the file as an attachment with an email and then he was able to use it. If that would help I could send it to you that way. PM me an e-mail address if you want to try that. Also anyone else can do likewise that is having a problem with any of the spreadsheets on that page. Not sure why they download and work for some and not others.
Also once downloaded you usually have to save it under a different name and re-open it before you can enter your data. Again some do and some don't have to do that,
Sum
midget,
Any word on the x-files? No micro-film please, transfer by 3.5" diskette, as mandated by Comrade Putin.
Da Svidaniya
Boris
Boris, I'm only one spy.
These things must be handled discretely and with a deft hand.
Do you really want me to say where I'm Putin that diskette?
My autonomy has been disrupted by emergency servitude to the republic of Oak Creek, throwing yesterday into a small scale Crimean Crackdown. But after I deliver low level wireless telecommunications devices ordered by the Milwaukee Collective Education Authority to the opera house on the West Bank, I will back-channel the encrypted information file and the hallowed relic, the Block of Abingdon, to our operatives in the Western consulate in Butler.
Comrade Conrad
Moscow Midget
?
Hello All
Fordboy , ref the damaged swiftune head .
From what you have said this head seams to have had a hard previous life with damage to the inlet valve seats . I would say it probably originally had 1.456" ( 37mm) inlet valves and someone has tried to reclaim the head by re-cutting seats and fitting oversize 1.475" ( 37.5mm )valves . The head was originally supplied with 37.5mm inlet valves. Problem is "someone" tried to make it better.
Is this an 8 insert head or an old head with just exhaust inserts fitted ? No valve seat inserts in this head at all. The client refuses to use a race head with seat inserts. "Someone" put some seats in an older head of his, and they fell out at racing speed, causing massive damage to the engine. Chuffed it.
This would explain the wear on the inlets and the exhausts still on original size valves.
Seat cutting on big valve A series is always a trade off between producing a desirable top seat angle and having the angles meet to form a sharp edge that promotes cracking. This is my experience as well.
I have never had a water jacket hole like that on a 12G 940 but it is VERY common on AEG 163 heads . Sometimes I have taken up to 0.100" out of 12G 940 to loose bad valve seat jobs. :-o I typically do not like to "deepen" the chamber to reclaim race heads. It shortens the short side radius of the valve pocket, which is the wrong thing to do for flow. Probably OK for street heads though.
Since you bring up the Rover K, have you looked at the BMW twin cam conversion? There was a turbo Mini running one at the salt 2012. I know MM has threatened a couple of times to go looking for a DOHC of some sort.
Since you bring up the Rover K, have you looked at the BMW twin cam conversion? There was a turbo Mini running one at the salt 2012. I know MM has threatened a couple of times to go looking for a DOHC of some sort.
I've corresponded with the Kiwis - Essentially, they've built the same short-stroke A series block I have. They are planning on heading back to Bonneville this year, and I intend to buy them beer.
Unfortunately, the BMW head would knock me out of GT into Modified. But because engine swaps are allowed in GT - within the same automobile manufacturer - a destroked K series would be a quick way to go DOHC and remain rule compliant.
If I stretched it, seeing as British Leyland owned Coventry, I COULD try a Climax engine, but if I'm going to spend that kind of money on a British engine, it'd be cheaper to build a Jaguar 6.
Yeah - you know there's something's wrong when building a Jag engine is a cost effective alternative to a highly sought-after forklift motor . . .
it'd be cheaper to build a Jaguar 6
XJ6. :? :?
Concentrate on courting KEIRA Knightly and getting her to pay for your racing pursuits, quicker and more likely of success.
Fordboy - I have the factory service manual on CD for the K.
Is that why you never sign off as "Brevityboy"? :-D :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Wayno
Hello All
KETTLE SPEC FOR FORDBOY :-D
The 16V 1100 engine appears to be a rare beast , its listed as being fitted to the Rover 25 from 2000 to 2005 , but nobody can remember seeing one.
Power listed is 70BHP.
Tech info as follows ( taken from Haynes ROVER METRO , 111 , 114 ) There will be loads of these on uk ebay
Just another thing , MG/ROVER have been owned by Honda , British Aerospace and BMW over the years.
Could you not fit a VTEC , M3 or a JET ENGINE :-D :-D :-D
midget,
Thanks for the visit and the Suds and the Sq tube. Will cc every cylinder to measure the average compression ratio with the new RimFlow exhaust valves. But I think that the .3cc reduction that we saw on cylinder #3 will most likely be consistent. We will just have to scratch up every fraction at this point.
HiHo Grenade!! Away!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
P.S. Just a reminder . . . you too could be an Illini . . . . . . . . albeit with Iowa roots!! :roll:
A 1000cc K series is a good idea in concept , but you are going to need to make the following .
Short stroke steel crank
Special steel rods
Special pistons
Camshafts , maybe ( have you looked at what kent and piper offer in the uk ?
Kettle Engine Porn!!!
I did find this interesting site:
http://kengine.dvapower.com/
Toward the end, a dyno graph shows about 245 bhp from a 1.7L, presumably full race spec. Uhhmm, that scales down to 144 bhp @ 1.0L . . . . . . . . . :-D
BTW, those numbers are rear wheel bhp . . . .
NewlyconvertedtothechurchoftheRoverboy
midget,
Any word on the x-files? No micro-film please, transfer by 3.5" diskette, as mandated by Comrade Putin.
Da Svidaniya
Boris
Boris, I'm only one spy.
These things must be handled discretely and with a deft hand.
Do you really want me to say where I'm Putin that diskette?
My autonomy has been disrupted by emergency servitude to the republic of Oak Creek, throwing yesterday into a small scale Crimean Crackdown. But after I deliver low level wireless telecommunications devices ordered by the Milwaukee Collective Education Authority to the opera house on the West Bank, I will back-channel the encrypted information file and the hallowed relic, the Block of Abingdon, to our operatives in the Western consulate in Butler.
Comrade Conrad
Moscow Midget
?
? ? ?
Think of it as "The Tower of Babble" . . . :cheers:
I thought it was a Pentacostal thing
G
More in a 5 port head kind of way
G
Fordy Flow Monkey Boy :-P
Great data! :cheers: BUT! it must be even more valuable when you have the heads sat right in front of you to visualise where the various improvements are coming from! :-D
Sometimes it's helpful, but most of the time the differences are very subtle and not so obvious.
So, Chris needs the inlets 'a la' Swiftune 1A and exhaust per Longman 1 ? Not necessarily. Although I am always a proponent of more low-lift/mid-lift flow, big high-lift flow numbers are not always required with smaller displacements. When you have a smaller displacement engine, a head that flows more will usually have less flow velocity, and that is usually not a good choice. It would depend on the rpm range that the engine is being designed for. An engine designed to be used at very high rpm's is going to have a proportionally larger "flow demand". It is the inability of the inlet tract to fulfill "flow demand" that causes volumetric efficiency losses at higher rpm's. The torque peak is always the peak of bmep and flow efficiency. Higher bhp values past the torque peak are a result of the power formula [bhp = tq*rpm/5252] in spite of the dropping efficiency. And when the efficiency drops steeply enough, bhp falls as well. I'm sure that a head with those flow numbers could be made to work well with say a 1275/1310/1380cc displacement engine. I think Chris' head is a good "flow match" for the displacement and the rpm range being used. And the cam choice is a huge factor here as well, and we aren't even talking about cams. Remember, "It's complicated".
Are the Swiftune heads relatively new, is the 1a an earlier version than the 5? suggesting improvement / development on their part.....? My client tells me both heads were purchased and delivered at the same time. 2007, I think was the year they received them. So recent, but not the very latest. And certainly not the "new Swiftune" special casting. It is in fact the limitations of the "sculpted top" 12G940 casting which prompted Swiftune to go to the trouble and expense of the new "special" casting.
This is kind of a touchy subject, BUT, my opinion is that both Swiftune heads were virtually identical when delivered. And then, somebody suggested that the head(s) could be "improved", by the addition of MED 6mm stem diameter valves and guides. This was done by a Chicagoland specialty race shop familiar with vintage BMC engines, but without a flow bench/adaptors for BMC's. The "improved" head promptly "lost" 8bhp on the shop's dyno. No plausible explanation ever ensued, UNTIL the heads were flowed and the results compared. Loss of overall intake flow, especially low-lift and mid-lift, is going to cost you horsepower output. Period. End of story.
Swiftune 1A is as delivered by Swiftune. Swiftune5 is the "improved" head and the resultant flow. Not what I would call development. Go back to the previous postings of flow graphs. Swiftune51 is the retest of Swiftune5 with the Swiftune 9/32 stem valves and guides re-installed. Notice that the low-lift/mid-lift flow is restored to almost the values of Swiftune1A, but the high-lift flow is now less. Probably due to the valves being "sunken" into the chambers. IMHO. If you are going to pay someone, a shop, whatever, for "improvement", you ought to get documentation of the "before" and the "after", SHOWING THE IMPROVEMENT! Again, IMHO.
How is the overall exhaust flow compared to the Inlet? Is the exhaust restrictive, or easily within required capacity? I've only graphed some early results for Chris' head, way back in the build diary. There is "some disagreement" among "engine professionals" about what is required in terms of exhaust flow as a percentage of intake flow. My own opinion is that the percentage required is dependent on the engine style, number(s) of valves/cylinder, rpm range, application (re: drag/sprint/endure/etc), normally aspirated Vs. supercharged, etc, etc. "It's Complicated". My opinion is that for N/A, small displacement, 2 valve/cyl, non crossflow engines like Chris' BMC, I want to see exhaust flow % be between 74% to about 82% of intake flow, to be able to use a SINGLE PATTERN CAM. Less exhaust flow percentage would require a dual pattern cam with more "lobe area" on the exhaust. More exhaust flow percentage would require a dual pattern cam with less "lobe area" on the exhaust. IMHO.
Blown engines require MORE exhaust flow percentage, 90/95%, or more, depending on the boost ratio. 4 valve per cylinder N/A engines require about 85/90%. Unless the flow percentage is WAY OUT OF WHACK, a good engine engineer can "usually" come up with a special camshaft to "band aid" the situation, BUT, this presumes that the cylinder head flow is "appropriate" for the displacement and intended rpm range of the engine, and therefore the "flow demand" required. This is a perfect example of why you have to be careful with the parts selection process early on in your build. You could be stuck with an expensive part that might not be a good choice for your intended purpose.
Sorry for the simple questions, I'm new to this flowbench interpretation lark! :roll: No problem, they are all good questions.
Thank you again for sharing!! maybe that should be "Generous Boy" :-D Nah! I've worked hard and long to create a reputation for being "difficult". Don't wanna blow it now.
More in a 5 port head kind of way
G
More in a 5 port head kind of way
G
Ahhh . . . yes . . . well played.
Another Australian poker player I would be wise to avoid anteing up against.
Hot Diggitty! Can you swap head/cams and associated parts to your built up short block (piston change) or can you bolt whole thing in- after appropriate mods. I know you have been talking about the head for some time just not sure what you need to do to make it work.
was a clean sheet of paper - something I've been told was good, because you can slip it under the car, and you can tell where it's leaking . . .
Hot Diggitty! Can you swap head/cams and associated parts to your built up short block (piston change) or can you bolt whole thing in- after appropriate mods. I know you have been talking about the head for some time just not sure what you need to do to make it work.
No - nothing is interchangeable between the two. The K series was a clean sheet of paper - something I've been told was good, because you can slip it under the car, and you can tell where it's leaking . . .
Hello All
Midget , so you took the plunge with a kettle then , you really are a man on a mision :-D
I,m sure you can make tis work , are you allowed to change the gearbox ? . Its very common in UK to fit Ford gearbox,s in to midget / sprites / morris minors .
We used to do a fair bit of work with JLH morris minors when they were fitting kettles in minors . So bell housings will be available . I even make tooling to machine K series cranks for ford spigot bearings when they were still in the engies :-o
Please contact me if you need anything sorting over here .
PS we also do all Ben Boults machining on his IMPS ,, :-o :-o SMALL WORLD
I already have 3 different 1.0L bore & stroke combos going on my simulation program . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
I already have 3 different 1.0L bore & stroke combos going on my simulation program . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
And I've already started a spread sheet with bearing sizes, bore dimensions, and cross-referenced to bearings and rings that are commonly available in the states . . .
BUT . . .
H O R S E, THEN C A R T .
The donk awaits . . .
Uhhmmm, Friday night at 6:34pm?!?
The order is:
BEER FIRST, then DONK, then horse, then cart. I feel like I left something out . . . . . Oh yeah, BEER!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Simulatorboy
P.S. You don't even want to know what the crevice volume in the DONK is . . . . . . good thing there aren't any valve reliefs . . . . . . :roll:
MM;
That Moroso bracket looks awfully thin; are you sure it won't flex under belt tension?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
MM;
That Moroso bracket looks awfully thin; are you sure it won't flex under belt tension?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Fair question, Neil. Here's what I know about it.
They use them on SB Chevys a lot, driving a pump that requires a lot more power than the water sprinkler in the Midget.
It's .120 thick, and the draw, if I get the pull right, should be almost parallel to the face - one other reason I don't want to move the drive pulley too far out on the motor shaft. If I don't draw the belt up too tight, and can locate the rest of the bracket in a wider triangulation, I think I can quote Alfred E. Neuman . . .
Then clamp the motor to the saddle with a good hose clamp (T-bolt type?). Belt tension adjustable using shims in the saddle.
Fordboy -
Just a quick info dump -
From the top of the piston to the top of the compression ring groove is .205.
The thickness of the piston head is .220.
I’m thinking if I carve up a ½ thick piece of aluminum, secure it by sandwiching the water pump between it and the block, and run 3 spacers between the Moroso motor hanger and the aluminum piece, I should be able to center the motor drive over the pulley.
Fordboy - Time to call Wiggle Pin.
Some older records I have measured the piston crown thickness @ .180" thick, in the center. ?
Also need the diameter of the piston top ring land, usually = to about bore dia. -.030".
Oh, COME ON! I JUST PUT THE DAMNED THINGS BACK!
:-D
Well, I just checked the order details from Great Britain. Looks like the K block is still in Manchester this evening - FedEx missed the cut-off for delivery - but it's still expected to be in Milwaukee on Friday.
???!!!???!!!
Wow. I figured they'd just put it on a boat, and I wouldn't see it until May.
Anybody else ever import a 200 lb pallet from overseas? I'm finding this kind of speed on a palletized international shipment a lot faster than I anticipated.
I'm not complaining - I'm just a bit shocked.
I'll believe it when I see it, but still - a week is super in my book.
I suspect the DOHC design makes it travel a bit faster than what you are used to working with. :-D
Don
my experience was that I had to add a brace that was in a different plane to stop mine from flopping around on a single plane bracket :-P
Midget,
I found something that I thought would help motivate ya. It starts around the 1 minute mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VflfZi4822k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VflfZi4822k)
I still can't figure out how you fit in that thing.
I'm thinking, in your case, the bailout procedure is more like an ooze-out procedure. :-D :cheers:
You don't need it until late anyway August Chris :-D
Cheers,
Rob
So while I need to focus on getting the Grenade back together, I'd like to know before I go in August whether I'll be able to make this work. It's a long-term strategy, designed to take me into my retirement years . . .
At which point, I might have enough time to start getting serious about this Bonneville thing.
How goes the battle with the EPA?
Is it "Argument", or has it become "Abuse"?
:cheers:
Montypythonboy
Save it for World Finals -- you never know.
Save it for World Finals -- you never know.
Stan.... picking on the Finals and the World of Speed these days :? :? :?
That is so unlike you... are you on your second box :-D
So Chris, after contemplating the profile of the midget, a radical musing:You could always pull a Smokey Yunick and build a 7/8 size Midget. Reducing the driver to 7/8 size might be more of a challenge, unless maybe you removed a certain liquid part of the diet.
What do you suppose would be the effect of running with the trunk lid propped part way open? May not do anything for the aero, but if it helps, wouldn’t take much to get the 3 mph. Don’t have a current rulebook, but it would probably be in a gray area.
I looked but couldn’t find a suitable (cheap) model with hardtop and operable trunk lid for testing.
So Chris, after contemplating the profile of the midget, a radical musing:You could always pull a Smokey Yunick and build a 7/8 size Midget. Reducing the driver to 7/8 size might be more of a challenge, unless maybe you removed a certain liquid part of the diet.
What do you suppose would be the effect of running with the trunk lid propped part way open? May not do anything for the aero, but if it helps, wouldn’t take much to get the 3 mph. Don’t have a current rulebook, but it would probably be in a gray area.
I looked but couldn’t find a suitable (cheap) model with hardtop and operable trunk lid for testing.
Seems to fit like a glove . . .
http://www.kmidget.co.uk/photos-enginebay.html
It's a few years off - but when I started this build, I was convinced I could have it ready to go in 6 months.
Silly me . . .
"I prefer corned beef hash for breakfast."
MMmm-mmm, good. Armour Star corned beef hash, right? With a gently fried egg on top and a couple of slices of toast and copious Heinz ketchupp, right? Way better than "Mary Kitchen", even if it's named after Stan Back's momma.
Yeah, yeah, I know – I said “Horse FIRST, THEN cart.”
But sometimes you have to clean out the stall, and when the cart is in the way, well, you just have to deal with it.
Okay - the die has been cast -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251443838396?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
On its way.
Double over head cams - let's see if we can make some power.
Should be on the salt in 2016.
Chris
Okay - the die has been cast -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251443838396?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
On its way.
Double over head cams - let's see if we can make some power.
Should be on the salt in 2016.
Chris
Ok, I see this post but still am missing some backstory. You guys have ADD. What class does this take you to?
... am still somewhat lost. What is this new engine...Ditto on feeling lost. I pretty much look at these forums every day, but apparently missed something...
Uhhmmm, Friday night at 6:34pm?!?
The order is:
BEER FIRST, then DONK, then horse, then cart. I feel like I left something out . . . . . Oh yeah, BEER!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Simulatorboy
P.S. You don't even want to know what the crevice volume in the DONK is . . . . . . good thing there aren't any valve reliefs . . . . . . :roll:
Nope - DONK FIRST.
Actually, this new engine purchase has lit a fire under my arse - that and we're 133 days away. The nominally better weather outlook has been a motivator as well.
Okay, here’s the deal.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5353_zps8b6af489.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5353_zps8b6af489.jpg.html)
Square peg in round hole.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5355_zps814011ff.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5355_zps814011ff.jpg.html)
I want to keep the end of the Moroso adapter that already has the crescent slot cut in it – because I’m lazy – and cheap. It’s easier to cut up and redrill a bracket than it is to create one.
Now the bosses for the water pump are machined flat – plus there’s an ear where the alternator used to hang out -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5354_zps825acf90.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5354_zps825acf90.jpg.html)
I’m thinking if I carve up a ½ thick piece of aluminum, secure it by sandwiching the water pump between it and the block, and run 3 spacers between the Moroso motor hanger and the aluminum piece, I should be able to center the motor drive over the pulley.
Fordboy - Time to call Wiggle Pin.
... am still somewhat lost. What is this new engine...Ditto on feeling lost. I pretty much look at these forums every day, but apparently missed something...
Thanks, Chris. Where would we all be without "dreams & schemes"? 8-)
Rex, I think he is like some of us who expect to break something, records or parts :-D :-D
Chris,
Wait a minute here, you have relentlessly flogged the poor thing on the dyno, screwed the tach to 9000+ enumerable times at Bonneville and you still haven't "beat the crap" out of it!?
Rex
Rex, I think he is like some of us who expect to break something, records or parts :-D :-D
Sometimes we break both, records and parts. :cheers:
Some of us break a record amount of parts
G
Dyno - prep.
One of the things I'm looking to accomplish is ringing every last ounce out of the Grenade this year.
And that was a wacky deal. Most A-series cams run between 100 and 106 degrees, Elgin's recommendation is 108, so the timing marks wound up being at the very end of the slotted adjustment. Each adjustment slot gives you 18 degrees of variance at the crank - the equivalent of 1 tooth on a forty tooth cam drive. Moving the gear one tooth on the belt simply bumped the problem to the other end of the slot. I'm tearing my hair out, thinking I'll need to have longer slots cut in it, when I realized that the adjusting screws were set on 60 degree centerlines. I reset the arbor and wound up smack dab in the middle of the slots, with room to advance or retard the cam.
Wednesday, I'll check valve to piston clearance.
Shooting for May 21st for dyno day.
Should we ask Slim if he'd like to see another Dynothon? I've got a crank scraper on the way, new exhaust valves, a different header, an electric water pump drive. We made 95.1 last year - I'm thinking 100 might actually be doable this time.
Chris
Yep 108° is where I would go
G
What will happen as Fordboy moves into the bi-world? Two cams, two intakes, two exhausts... I doubt it will be too much. :evil:
Geo
Geo, how's that hardtop?
Given the Jag head... he has lying around in his garage,
I have Jag parts too if anything is needed.
Geo
OK, now I will go back to my cave and hibernate some more as spring is not here yet. :-D
Regards,
HB2 :-)
The engineers and physicists calculate and show only a few thou difference in position or piston speeds at some point and suggest that rod ratio is of (not none but) considerably less importance than other engine parameters.
\I agree 100%. I was talking about piston position with respect to rod ratio, not the valve closing point. Anyway, looking at my post last night, which was done late and after a few :cheers: might have sounded argumentative. Was not at all meant to be and if came off that way I apologize. I am just trying to learn here as well. As I have mentioned before, I am in similar boat as can't decrease chamber size, domes on my pistons just make sharp edges sticking in places they shouldn't be. I have the thinnest gasket I can get away with, with maybe .033 P-head clearance, minimal P-V clearance etc and had a custom gasket made to fit bore and notches in top of cylinder which are there to clear the chamber to minimize any dead space. Will continue to follow and look forward to results on the dyno.The engineers and physicists calculate and show only a few thou difference in position or piston speeds at some point and suggest that rod ratio is of (not none but) considerably less importance than other engine parameters.
Jack, I highlighted that in red for a reason. Even a few thousandths difference in the closing event of this combination - keep in mind, we're talking less than 250 cc per cylinder - can make a big difference in the amount of dynamic compression ratio we'll be able to achieve.
I can loose a 1/4 point of static CR by simply using a .006 thicker head gasket. It's not quite the issue on larger capacity engines.
"Conversation overheard @ Pro-Motor Racing Engines circa 1981"
Peter Guild's ProMotor in the old Shadow CanAm building in EGV? Perhaps that's why your name is familiar to me, Mark.
vic
Now, if we knew what the effective valve timing and exhaust plumbing dimensions were, we armchair tuners would really have something to chew on!
"Let's assume a static situation in the checking of dynamic CR. We will disallow ramcharging effect, velocity, any other dynamic attributes in an engine, and just focus on the valve closing event with respect to piston placement in the bore. Assuming the closing event on a compression stroke to occur .634 above BDC with the longer rod, compared to .639 above BDC for the short rod, how can there not be additional A/F mixture captured in the cylinder, and thus, more CR?"
I think when you ignore these things you become the "effective CR" that Fordboy described in his treatise on CR's. The whole point of dynamic is just that, dynamic. And if there is reversion, residual exhaust, inappropriate IVO etc, you can end with LESS cylinder filling and therefore less, not more, A/F mixture to be compressed with your lower down piston. Although mean piston speed is not different with the two rod lengths, peak piston speeds are and this may have some effect. So, we are waiting for Fordboy to pipe in (or someone else) to help us out here.
Query for FordBoy w/ref. to his earlier comments:
EGV? Stands for . . . "European Garbage Vehicle"? Or, by some remote chance, Elk Grove Village?
I have never driven the former but lined in the latter for a handful of years. I knew where UOP was in Des Plaines -- but not that there was an engine shop/whatever it was in Elk Grove. My handful of years was a while before you were there, from the sound of it but still -- hmm, didn't know there was such a place.
Back to our regularly-scheduled roamings.
"Let's assume a static situation in the checking of dynamic CR. We will disallow ramcharging effect, velocity, any other dynamic attributes in an engine, and just focus on the valve closing event with respect to piston placement in the bore. Assuming the closing event on a compression stroke to occur .634 above BDC with the longer rod, compared to .639 above BDC for the short rod, how can there not be additional A/F mixture captured in the cylinder, and thus, more CR?"
I think when you ignore these things you become the "effective CR" that Fordboy described in his treatise on CR's. The whole point of dynamic is just that, dynamic. And if there is reversion, residual exhaust, inappropriate IVO etc, you can end with LESS cylinder filling and therefore less, not more, A/F mixture to be compressed with your lower down piston. Although mean piston speed is not different with the two rod lengths, peak piston speeds are and this may have some effect. So, we are waiting for Fordboy to pipe in (or someone else) to help us out here.
Coach IO, I think I got that bit of nomenclature right -
"Dynamic Compression Ratio, on the other hand, uses the position of the piston at intake valve closing rather than BDC of the crank stroke to determine the sweep volume of the cylinder."
http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html
The dynamics being brought to bear on a dynamic CR - I'm ill equipped to argue against your insight.
:cheers:
Wow. If that's the case - that you lived on the NW side of the city -- you'll probably understand (maybe) that after I graduated from Forest View High School in Arlington Heights (you date yourself if you know that place -- it was disbanded after something like 15 years from when it was built for the baby boom) I spent two wonderful years commuting from EGV to UCLA (University of Chicago located on Austin (a/k/a Wright Junior). But that was in another century, and when I was done there I headed north to the UP and have been here ever since. Is there still anything down there?Seldom Seen,
SSS......I'd suggest you insert Arlington Heights as the location for landspeedrich.
It may not be current but he seemed to enjoy his time there.
FREUD
[/quote
Arlington Heights probably loaded with climbers back then.I was a happy GREASER over by Ohare with my 48 Chevy coupe.Don't mean sidetrack this thread.Did enjoy the mid 60's,what can I say 8-)
IO -
I've been humbled - but I have been made smarter for it.
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/piston_motion_basics.htm
And I owe you another beer. :cheers:
What bugs me is that I took painstaking efforts to accurately measure this. I realized I had a rare opportunity to check the actual relationship of two different rod lengths side by side on a common axis to their relative piston travel.
And I see where one would think I inverted the numbers, and that the results would indicate that's what happened. But man, I double checked them - I made a point to accurately assign the correct number with the correct cylinder. So to that end, I don't know where the mistake is, and I'm having a difficult time accepting that there is one.
Maybe I should just go back to something simple.
Anybody want to give me a hand with my cold fusion project?
My office was in EGV for a few years, then in Lincolnwood, and I lived in Roselle '75 - '85. My garage in Roselle was where I first started doing customer work on race cars as I terminated my job with Honeywell. In the first part of the eighties I rented some dyno time from ProMotor as I did some intake and exhaust development on a Porsche 924 race engine.
Yes, Slim, the Don Nichols led Shadow CanAm operation ran out of what became the ProMotor shop.
Mark, did you ever work with Bill Truesdale at Apex?
vic
Anybody want to give me a hand with my cold fusion project?
Anybody want to give me a hand with my cold fusion project?
midget,
I thought that was what I was doing . . . . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Happy Easter!! to all, and to all a good night!! (Wait, uhhmm, maybe that's not quite right . . . . . . . Oh well!!)
Slightlyconfusedboy
Europa like a Lotus 47? :-) Wayno
"Apex Automotive was opened by Bill Truesdale in 1973 for one reason...he couldn't find anyone to do the kind of work he needed done on his race car. A 1967 Lotus Series II Europa."
http://www.apexae.com/about/index.html (http://www.apexae.com/about/index.html)
Mike
Well, Chris, at least they were all the same thread except one. Not a bad average. :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Actually, Chris, I use new surplus AN/MS/NAS aerospace fasteners-- those I trust.
Beware your sources Neil. A few years ago there was a flood of Chinese fakes hit the market. Hopefully that situation has been shut down.
Pete
It's a 5/16 bolt.
The L19 is what Saenz uses as their standard bolt for a 6" A-series racing rod. Given that this rod is typically twisted well north of 8 K on a significantly longer, whippier 1275 crank (3.2 v 2.45) with 3 mains, I suspect the forces put upon that combination warrant extra strength and clamping capacity.
Do I need it with a stiffer, balanced billet crank? Maybe not.
But on the other hand, despite my screw up, they didn't let go.
I might be able to save $100.00 by going with the ARP 2000. But I would be kicking myself all the way home if one let loose.
I did look at the Aermet® bolts - so I can rationalize that I'm saving money by not using a bolt that has 20% more tensile strength than what I probably already don't need. :-D
Parenthetically, how did you arrive at the L19 material? Do you really need that level of high strength and preload? Its predilection for hydrogen embrittlement (stress corrosion cracking) is a bit worrisome.
It's a 5/16 bolt.
The L19 is what Saenz uses as their standard bolt for a 6" A-series racing rod. Given that this rod is typically twisted well north of 8 K on a significantly longer, whippier 1275 crank (3.2 v 2.45) with 3 mains, I suspect the forces put upon that combination warrant extra strength and clamping capacity.
Do I need it with a stiffer, balanced billet crank? Maybe not.
But on the other hand, despite my screw up, they didn't let go.
I might be able to save $100.00 by going with the ARP 2000. But I would be kicking myself all the way home if one let loose.
I did look at the Aermet® bolts - so I can rationalize that I'm saving money by not using a bolt that has 20% more tensile strength than what I probably already don't need. :-D
Bolts are only glorified springs - you know what happens when you open the screen door too far or too many times! :-( :-o
Fordboy & MM;
"So we are all on the same page here. The highest load the rod bolt "sees" is at "unloaded TDC rock-over", ie, TDC during overlap of the open valves. Only the bolts (or the bolts and nuts, depending on your con-rod set), hold things together during the load reversal. There must be sufficient tensile strength and "preload" for the fastener to withstand these loads, repeatedly."
That's a key point regarding fatigue life that is often overlooked or misunderstood. You NEVER want the tension in the (rod) bolt to drop to zero during the cycle. If it does, that bolt will fail VERY soon.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
“The highest load the rod bolt "sees" is at "unloaded TDC rock-over" . . .”
That is the highest load that the bolted joint must sustain, repeatedly. Hopefully, the highest load the rod bolt “sees” is mostly its preload, which would be well in excess of the “rock-over” load, plus a minor alternating load due to the elasticity of the system. (And, discounting any bending stresses due to the prying action of the rod cap.)
Why did you go through all that effort and still have questionable reliability when a remotely located inline pump would do the job, without the Mickey Mouse factor?
Fordboy-Orwhateverundercoverofdarknessaliasyoumaytochosetouse :-D :-D
I value your past experiences and expertise greatly. What is your opinion on either or both coatings MM is thinking about as far as increased HP and or longevity with no other changes? And would that scale up or change with larger engines?
TIA Ron
Chris is taking a "I'm leaving nothing on the plate" attitude.
I reworked my adapter plate idea from a few weeks back. My initial try proved the theory, this one actually clears the head. A shorter belt is on order –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5383_zpsa8e50501.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5383_zpsa8e50501.jpg.html)
My chief concern is that the ½” adapter is actually only bolted to the block through two bolts through the water pump.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5384_zps4b8c623c.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5384_zps4b8c623c.jpg.html)
What I’m hoping to do is stabilize adapter and the pump motor with a long bolt through the alternator ear on the pump, and with spacers, tie it into the back alternator bracket, the holes of which are currently being used to hold the engine to the stand. I’ll also stabilize the rest of the pump motor with an exhaust clamp and a turnbuckle around the same bolt. The threaded piece is in place for the mock-up – I think the actual stock alternator bolt will do the trick – provided I can find it.
Yeah, it’s all a bit Mickey Mouse, but there just isn’t anything else on the front to hang the motor from.
Other new parts arrived – like, the day I pulled the rods and pistons – so the scraper and windage tray will be fitted after everything else gets done.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5385_zps4be50f62.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5385_zps4be50f62.jpg.html)
All the electric water pump setup has to do for now is get the "Grenade" through the dyno session. If the mounting has to be "beefed up", that can be attended to prior to Saltfest. :-D
I'm assuming that line is for tech not to actually run, what's on it's roof?
Cheers,
Rob
Guess what, Rex? He owns a transmission shop! :-o
Other than the transmission, I think one of the issues he encounters - and very likely the reason he takes such a long push at Bonneville - is to keep the engine together through the 3.
Here's a video he did on driving a SAAB 2 Stroke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKKudxE1wGA
I grew up in Iowa, and to have to drive any car in that manner from Cedar Rapids to Fort Dodge would make me crazy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKKudxE1wGA
"On the gas, off the gas. On the gas, off the gas."
"Wax on, wax off. Wax on, wax off."
That would make me nuts. Oh, wait, I've spent a lifetime on race cars/race engines . . . . . . . Uhhmm, nevermind.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Mid 67 the Sonnett was switched from 2-stroke to Ford V-4. Does swapping to another engine from the same manufacturer mean that any Ford engine would be legal? :mrgreen:
Mike
I raced two stroke motocross bikes for years in the So. Cal desert and you could not hold one wide open while crossing a dry lake or going down a fire road without "breathing" it just like the SAAB.. I would just hold the throttle wide open and kill the engine with the kill switch. The raw gas/oil drawn through the carb would cool the exhaust port and delay seizure. I did once seize my 350 Bultaco at about 85 mph on a fire road and you really have to be quick with the clutch. Two strokes have the ability to weld aluminum to steel and it is instant! Still love them!
Rex
Always deep thoughts on the M Midget thread. :)
BR
Goodly did. You laid it out very well. And I learned something. I always thought it was Morris Garage (singular). :wink: :cheers: Wayno
Did you get to dyno?
"Gregg - the door is open here anytime. cheers"
That couldn't be the same Gregg that visited me. Welcome anytime? Hoo-hah, he must have changed a whole bunch on the trip down. Maybe it was the pasty that he ate here in Marquette. Ask him. . .
I know yoopers don't negotiate with tourists, but elk and rutabaga pie?
QuoteI know yoopers don't negotiate with tourists, but elk and rutabaga pie?
I felt a little urge to throw up there . . .
What kind of latches are those, Chris? Looks very tidy.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
The standard meat in pasties is (beef) flank steak.
The standard meat in pasties is (beef) flank steak.
The standard meat in pasties is (beef) flank steak.The standard meat in pasties is (beef) flank steak.
SSS, every other place i'v been, its been some other meet, something that makes milk
Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge.
I was told that this might be a bit of an issue.
Seems when pistons are coated, the autoclave get's 'em hot enough to sometimes require a re-hone for the pins to fit properly.
Wrist pins are just
t h i s m u c h
too tight for comfort.
Engine goes to the back burner - back to the garage for more chassis/body work.
I guess it's a nice day, and it's not like I don't have a lot of other things to get done . . . , but
Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge.
Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge.
I was told that this might be a bit of an issue.
Seems when pistons are coated, the autoclave get's 'em hot enough to sometimes require a re-hone for the pins to fit properly.
Wrist pins are just
t h i s m u c h
too tight for comfort.
Engine goes to the back burner - back to the garage for more chassis/body work.
I guess it's a nice day, and it's not like I don't have a lot of other things to get done . . . , but
Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge, Dodge.
Just a thought, but if the pin bores changed, might the pistons not be quite as round as they once were ? I'd think it'd be worth checking, dunno what could be done, but seems like you'd want to know "inquiring minds want to know" and all that.
Roy
Modern pistons may not be round. Ask the manufacture for drawings. You can't check them if you don't know what the numbers should be. Did you try to install the pins "wet"?
Modern pistons may not be round. Ask the manufacture for drawings. You can't check them if you don't know what the numbers should be. Did you try to install the pins "wet"?
?
and then
?
I'm aware that Honda had experimented with oval pistons - I think for Formula 1 - but you'll need to educate me on why an egged piston would provide an advantage that a manufacturer would work toward. You've got me digging for the spec sheet.
By wet, I assume you mean with alcohol. Yes, still tighter than before the coating. There appears to be no coating overspray in the pin bore.
Just a thought, but if the pin bores changed, might the pistons not be quite as round as they once were ? I'd think it'd be worth checking, dunno what could be done, but seems like you'd want to know "inquiring minds want to know" and all that.
Roy
Oh, and I just had someone tell me about how much time he felt guys "waste" checking dimensions when assembling engines. :? His engine seized on the first drag strip pass this past weekend . . . . . . . I wonder what he knows that I don't. :-o
:cheers:
Fordboy
Hey, Chris-- I'm impressed by your Dad's working for Collins.
They made the best electronic gear ever! I have a collection of their old stuff but they all still work: 32S1 receiver, 75S1 transmitter, KWM-1 transceiver, and an R-390A military receiver. The quality and design engineering that Collins put into their products was legendary. Thanks to you Dad for being part of such a class outfit. :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Hey, Chris-- I'm impressed by your Dad's working for Collins.
They made the best electronic gear ever! I have a collection of their old stuff but they all still work: 32S1 receiver, 75S1 transmitter, KWM-1 transceiver, and an R-390A military receiver. The quality and design engineering that Collins put into their products was legendary. Thanks to you Dad for being part of such a class outfit. :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
And Neil, I think you'll appreciate that they had a really impressive surplus store. :wink:
Jon;
I built my share of Heathkits, too-- a DX100, an SB10, AM & FM tuners, and a color TV. Too bad kids today don't have Heathkits to learn some electronics and get some practical hands-on experience. Computers are no substitute for actually building something.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Jon;
I built my share of Heathkits, too-- a DX100, an SB10, AM & FM tuners, and a color TV. Too bad kids today don't have Heathkits to learn some electronics and get some practical hands-on experience. Computers are no substitute for actually building something.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I think my biggest-ever Heathkit was a color TV that I built for a buddy of my dad. He bought the kit and probably paid me some magnificent some, and I had a ball putting it together. Let's see -- my first two meter rig, and a DX40, I think, and for sure the 40 watt 2M amplifier. I think there was some hi-fi stuff in there, too.
For those of you that don't have any idea -- Heathkits were good for learning. The instructions were well and clearly written and had boxes to check by each instruction line. The parts were included and the assembler (me) was to lay out all of the parts to make sure they were all there and to know where they were. How do you learn color codes for resistors? Building Heathkits did it for me. I remember that by the time I got into electronics class in my senior year that I was the only one that already knew color codes. In fact - I had to learn the mnenomics about "raping our girls. . ." and Roy. G. Biv.
Back to your car's story, Chris.
Just a thought, but if the pin bores changed, might the pistons not be quite as round as they once were ? I'd think it'd be worth checking, dunno what could be done, but seems like you'd want to know "inquiring minds want to know" and all that.
Roy
Yeah, that's a potential headache, too.
I dropped them off already for the honing - I'll have them back on Wednesday. The pin issue was something that Baurle, the company who did the work, says sometimes rears its ugly head, but he made no mention of any circumferencial distortion.
Nevertheless, I do own a 2-3 micrometer, and I'll be checking them for roundness before I install them.
Hoping this doesn't turnout to be a ship-sinker.
Some of those almost sound like 4 cy air craft engs. :?
I built one Heath kit SW receiver and a MPG/speedometer.
A high school friend built the Color TV. On day in November 1965 he came home from school and the TV was not working. So he goes into diagnostic mode. About 2 hours into the checking his father comes home
from work in NYC and says did you hear about the blackout, the whole east coast is out. We lived on Staten Island NY and our power station was off the grid that night and we had power.
He went on to work for BELL LABS.
Nick
P.S. Mini-Maven's dyno session is TODAY. The preliminary report is that the cam break-in procedure went well. And, a quick blast to 4000 rpm under load saw: ZERO blow-by . . . . . . that would be great, BUT, I have to wonder if there is a leak somewhere. Zero would be, exceptional. Will post the peak numbers when I know them for fans of full race BMC 1310s. (1275 +.040 overbore)
:-D
F/B
Yes please to that F/B, who are 'Mini-Maven' anyway?
Chris,
It may pay you to make a cover for the radiator/grill if you are towing. It's far easier to fit and remove than desalting that area of the vehicle. A full front bra would be the ducks guts!
Cheers,
Rob
Chris
We used the same tow bar from the same place that was just good enough with a little modification. The best part is no one has to sit in the hot car to steer.
Take some time and secure some kind of bra or mud flaps. Our car was caked with salt about 3/8 deep o the head light covers. When I go back I will make a bra from Walmart imitation Naugahide and secure it with buggies and perhaps magnets. The problem is with the tow bar you can easily tow at 45 mph which churns up a lot of salt and spay...especially if the salt is damp. The Mig my have an advantage being not as wide as the tow vehicle. A small sheet of vinyl with some eyelets and short bungies will do the trick.
My 2 cents
BR
And chicks dig it . . . :wink:Oh, good. Your mom called. :mrgreen:
And chicks dig it . . . :wink:Oh, good. Your mom called. :mrgreen:
Mike
Chris, both Nancy and your Kate have told me how cool is your car. They're the chicks to whom you refer, right? :cheers:
Today was spent prepping the body for paint.
All of the crap I swept under the rug in 2010 is coming back to haunt me.
Same color. It's become a "brand" at this point, and like they say at Disneyland, "you don't mess with the Mouse."
And chicks dig it . . . :wink:
That's impressive F/Boy, especially when you're limited by the old school ignition, is that an historic class requirement?
I'd love that sort of power in one of my Mini's ! :-o
Cheers! :cheers:
Well, I dropped off the oil pan to get the windage tray welded into place. That's about all I'll realistically be able to get done this week. Summerfest starts Wednesday, I'll be working the entire run along with my day job, and other than weekend days, the 4th of July and Monday evening, it'll be 17 hour days until the 7th.
Put the coffee on - I'm going in . . .
Coffee? Coffee?
You're not going the Keith Richards route with a bottle of "Jack" every night?!*!?
Let me point out that the "Jack" route has the benefit of "Not giving a sh** about anything" at the end of every evening . . . . . . . . :roll:
Sometimes you just gotta say "WTF"
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Fordboy said "Problem is, even after you pass Tech, you can be disqualified for violating "the spirit" of the rules. Especially if your car outperforms the car of an officer of the sanctioning organization . . . . ." Sounds like several others sanctioning groups I know of!
Rex
Coffee? Coffee?
You're not going the Keith Richards route with a bottle of "Jack" every night?!*!?
Let me point out that the "Jack" route has the benefit of "Not giving a sh** about anything" at the end of every evening . . . . . . . . :roll:
Sometimes you just gotta say "WTF"
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
You didn't spend enough time in Mooresville.
If I want hillbilly corn liquor, I'll make my own.
CORN is for FLAKES - RYE is for Drinkin'! :cheers:
At the risk of sounding like my 7th grade teacher, Sister Mary Whacksalot from Our Lady of Perpetual Guilt: (a 42" blackboard pointer was her favorite instrument of torture . . . . . .)
Been there, done that. Different name though. :-D
I don't think Chris ever had anything to do with them.
He's still pretty normal. :-D :-D
You are more disciplined than I am, I would have blown it up trying for the last 9/10th's.
BR
"the fastest damned stock bodied, naturally aspirated, five-port, one liter Midget ever to hit the salt."
I don't know if it's the camera, the whatsmacallit, or the whatever. But, is the color new? I LOVED the old color. Hope it's just the transmission -- not the geary one.
Slowly, slowly catchee monkey.
Got a good start on the mandatory trim piece reapplication required in a production class.If the chrome pieces are too bad, you could just sandblast and paint or powder coat them. A lot cheaper than new or re-chromed. Who uses chrome these days?
I pull out these chrome pieces, and I sez to myself, "You know, you can get shiny, new pieces through Moss Motors, and then the car will look as nice as the paint job."
And then I sez to myself, "If it's going so damned slow that people are pointing out the corrosion on the driver's side headlight bezel, then I have more important things to worry about."
So a tube of Flitz later . . .
Slowly, slowly catchee monkey.
Who uses chrome these days?
Tom
pits in chrome is like a scar on your hand...that's experience!
My chrome trim has experience!
BR
pits in chrome is like a scare on your hand...that's experience!
My chrome trim has experience!
BR
Ahhh, wouldn't the pits in the chrome create little surface vortices? Sorta like dimples on a golf ball? Being an engine guy, I have no idea whether it would help or hurt the aero drag . . . . . . .
The guys who run the A2 windtunnel say that filling small pits, dimples, waxing, taping seams etc does diddly. don't waste your time. Make it look like you want it to. That said, my car is in the paint shop getting a new "go faster" paint job. :) Your results may vary as always. :roll: :cheers:
Ahhh, wouldn't the pits in the chrome create little surface vortices? Sorta like dimples on a golf ball? Being an engine guy, I have no idea whether it would help or hurt the aero drag . . . . . . .
Golf balls also spin, so if I ever build a roadster, I'll look into dimples.
Until then, and seeing as I'm only three weeks out . . .The guys who run the A2 windtunnel say that filling small pits, dimples, waxing, taping seams etc does diddly. don't waste your time. Make it look like you want it to. That said, my car is in the paint shop getting a new "go faster" paint job. :) Your results may vary as always. :roll: :cheers:seeing as the girls in Tony's avatars aren't likely to show up with cheese cloth and a bottle of Zip-wax
The guys who run the A2 windtunnel say that filling small pits, dimples, waxing, taping seams etc does diddly. don't waste your time. Make it look like you want it to. That said, my car is in the paint shop getting a new "go faster" paint job. :) Your results may vary as always. :roll: :cheers:
Chris, From LeMans 2013 before and after pics, I think I saw some cheese cloth. Tony :cheers:
Before
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/jetgirls_zps79a89eac.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/jetgirls_zps79a89eac.jpg.html)
After :evil:
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj236/maguromic/jetgirls2_zps0e31aeee.jpg) (http://s273.photobucket.com/user/maguromic/media/jetgirls2_zps0e31aeee.jpg.html)
Chris, From LeMans 2013 before and after pics, I think I saw some cheese cloth. Tony :cheers:
Mike, you've got great search skills.
Yeah, the ratios are now -
First 2.57:1
Second 1.722:1
Third 1.255:1
Top 1:1
Stock ratios were definitely street gears - and pretty well suited for the later 3.92:1 rear end that Morris put in when they uprated to the 1275 -
First 3.2:1
Second 1.916:1
Third 1.357:1
Top 1:1
The kit I bought from MiniMania is intended for sports racing, and is well suited for a hi-zoot, punched out 1275.
I would love to see a slightly tighter 3-4, but we contended last year, and I'm willing to wind it tighter this year in the lower gears to put it where it needs to be to pull the top.
It will wind to 9k, and if it's will do so strongly in 3rd, I think we'll be golden.
Attached is a Sumner spreadsheet. It doesn't take into account wheel spin, but somehow, I don't expect wheel spin is going to be a problem.
RPM In RPM RPM In RPM RPM In RPM RPM In
MPH First Drop Second Drop Third Drop Fourth
100 16579 5483 11096 2967 8128 1677 6451
105 17408 5757 11650 3116 8535 1761 6774
110 18237 6032 12205 3264 8941 1845 7096
115 19066 6306 12760 3413 9347 1929 7419
120 19895 6580 13315 3561 9754 2013 7741
125 20724 6854 13870 3709 10160 2097 8064
130 21553 7128 14424 3858 10567 2180 8386
Do you have any records or recollection of the top rpm you ran at the 2nd mile AND the 3rd mile? Average speed could then be calculated from the rpm's.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Any suggestions for cameras, anybody?
What the hell is a plinth?
Thats a very manageable list. I cant wait to see it kick some butt!
"IT'SAGODDAMNEDMGITSAYSSORIGHTONTHEFRICKINGRILLYOUDORK!" :roll:
What the hell is a plinth?
Thats a very manageable list. I cant wait to see it kick some butt!
The plinth is the part of the grill that holds the MG emblem in place.
Yeah, this is stupid from a racing standpoint, but there's a bit of a story behind it.
Neil was over visiting our pit last year, and while I tried to tighten the loose emblem, the nut fell off of the plinth. I tried fishing it out with a magnet, but the nut was stainless, so I never got around to reinstalling it.
Fast forward - the "100 years of Bonneville" book comes out, and just above a picture of the BMR coupe - a car and a team I have held in high esteem for years and was one of my inspirations - is a picture of the Midget.
And the authors referred to my MG as an Austin Healey Sprite. :x
I know - badge engineering - but despite the fact that the car graphics include a HUGE OCTAGON that include the car's number and class, I was a little miffed by the misidentification.
Part of what I'm doing is trying to reintroduce an MG into the record books. Goldie Gardner, Phil Hill, George Eyston - all members of the 200 mph club - all raced MGs on the salt.
So the plinth goes on with a shiny new MG logo badge, which will give me the right to yell at people -
"IT'SAGODDAMNEDMGITSAYSSORIGHTONTHEFRICKINGRILLYOUDORK!" :roll:
The ultimate in fuel efficiency? One gallon of gas? :-o [Or is that some other 'gas' other than gasoline?]
Well, it wasn't SUPPOSED to be a thrash this year. :|
Nobody to blame but the guy in the mirror.
The electric radiator fan seems to have lost its will to survive. If I had half a brain, I would have tested it BEFORE I installed the radiator and buried it behind the grill. Radiator comes out Wednesday night - Advance Auto has one on the shelf. Once the car is out of 1st gear, I switch it off and let the wind take over, but it's critical to keeping the Grenade from boiling over while waiting in line, and cooling it down after a run.
To make matters worse, the really nice used tach I bought from Bill a few years back didn't survive the gravitational challenge of Chris Clutzrad. At first, I thought it might have been my new dash wiring job. But checking that with an old Smith's tach from an MGB informed me that yes, I'm pretty good at this wiring harness stuff - it's my ability to not drop things that I need to work on.
Rats Chris, since my chances of setting a record are slim I was hoping to see my old tach get a trip to impound. If you had a mechanical tach drive I have two jones/moroso tachs I would send you.
It'll all get sorted this week, and I don't THINK there's anything left around the corner that will bite me in the arse.
Still . . . :roll:
Well, it wasn't SUPPOSED to be a thrash this year. :|Rats Chris, since my chances of setting a record are slim I was hoping to see my old tach get a trip to impound. If you had a mechanical tach drive I have two jones/moroso tachs I would send you.
Nobody to blame but the guy in the mirror.
The electric radiator fan seems to have lost its will to survive. If I had half a brain, I would have tested it BEFORE I installed the radiator and buried it behind the grill. Radiator comes out Wednesday night - Advance Auto has one on the shelf. Once the car is out of 1st gear, I switch it off and let the wind take over, but it's critical to keeping the Grenade from boiling over while waiting in line, and cooling it down after a run.
To make matters worse, the really nice used tach I bought from Bill a few years back didn't survive the gravitational challenge of Chris Clutzrad. At first, I thought it might have been my new dash wiring job. But checking that with an old Smith's tach from an MGB informed me that yes, I'm pretty good at this wiring harness stuff - it's my ability to not drop things that I need to work on.
It'll all get sorted this week, and I don't THINK there's anything left around the corner that will bite me in the arse.
Still . . . :roll:
MM, always charge your battery during your 4 hours in impound :-D no matter what the gauge says
:cheers:
MM, always charge your battery during your 4 hours in impound :-D no matter what the gauge says
:cheers:
What does it take AAA's? :-P
Chris
Goggles is good at the last minute stuff
G
Oil changeAir intake
WashInspection ChecklistBleed brakes - clutchTachometer - repairBackup lightsFire block hole around AF sender
I'm "in country" now so look out!
Cheers,
Rob
"Feeling your age"? At 54? Does not compute...
I'm sure there are many like me with 20 years on you- spending most of our waking hours buildin' and wrenchin' on all kinds of stuff.
Again, results below 6900 would be good to have. Also, an actual loaded rolling radius or rollout measurement would be more accurate than the estimate used based on the 22” tire.
Wouldn;'t something more aggressive like grinding the valve and seat or maybe a new valve be called for?This of course would be the proper fix but IIRC these are custom valves and unless has a spare already new is a no go. And today is Sunday. Need prevail on friendly head guy to do a valve job on it tomorrow so can load and be on the way. Tough row that one. Hoping valve not really bent and just a bit more lapping will do the job. However, fordboy and "everything is important" might pitch a fit. :cheers:
MM, when you lap are you seeing wide and narrow areas on the valve or seat?
I'd be concerned about the retainers. Why did it break? Are the lock angles correct (don't know about BMC but are they matching, not 7* in a 10* retainer or something).
Wouldn;'t something more aggressive like grinding the valve and seat or maybe a new valve be called for?
What a bummer to happen at the last minute. Arrggghhh........
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iARvKmmGiQ&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iARvKmmGiQ&feature=youtu.be)
Chris,
You and a couple of others have mentioned luck, good bad or otherwise. I would dispute that and say that rather than being in a bad position, earlier preparation and attention to detail have put you in a good position to solve what may otherwise have been a deal breaker.
Stop reading this and get to it, I'm a selfish SOB and I want to see that car run.
Cheers,
Rob
Jeez – it was just IDLING!
When I checked the cooling system this afternoon, I noticed the Midget seemed to be running a tad rough. The exhaust pulses were not quite as aggressive as they had been, so I figured I’d check the valve lash. These things are notorious for not maintaining adjustment – I’ve had issues before - and it’s dialed in a few thousandths tighter than before. Additionally, on the advice of Tom at T&T, he suggested I not crank down the adjusters as tight as I had been.
I suspected something wasn’t right, so I took off the valve cover.
This is what I found . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5440_zpsab770854.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN5440_zpsab770854.jpg.html)
Snapped right down the middle. The keepers were still in place, and the valve was being returned by the inner spring, which actually stopped the valve from dropping out of the head.
It looks worse than what it is, but the rocker was also gnarred up through this process . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5444_zps4aecd67b.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN5444_zps4aecd67b.jpg.html)
The roller still turns easy, and other than the scraping against the collar, the rocker appears to be usable.
Tear down, check the valve and seat, repair. Had this happened at Bonneville, I’d have put it back together and headed for the line.
But because we were at home, Mark insisted we replace ALL of the collars. His point was that these were original to a used racing head I bought 5 years ago, that we didn’t know its history before hand, and that we’d been abusing it on the dyno for better than 50 pulls, two passes at Maxton and 11 passes at Bonneville.
What turned up was what would have been the next collar to break . . . Note the stress crack at 2 o’clock . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5454_zps0ab9aa37.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5454_zps0ab9aa37.jpg.html)
So in this case, my friend Dumb Luck, once again led us down the path of preparedness and enlightenment.
I simply got really, REALLY lucky. I was at the point of putting the car on the trailer, and if I hadn’t tested the cooling system, it’s likely I’d have trashed the engine on the first pass.
And I have to confess, it still could happen. It’s the risk we take doing this – pushing things to their limit.
You can'’t count on Dumb Luck, but you can learn from him.
This rule saved your bacon! :-D
That retainer in your pic is a rough looking fellow! Many stress risers on a deal like that.
Chris,
Are you going to clean up the scoring on the rocker arm?
The scars could lead to some stress/failure of the rocker.
Nick
Chris,
Are you going to clean up the scoring on the rocker arm?
The scars could lead to some stress/failure of the rocker.
Nick
Fordboy requested I post a pic of the cracked collar. I'll let him explain what we're looking at, because I'm tired.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/970%20Spec/DSCN5457_zps38590c4c.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/970%20Spec/DSCN5457_zps38590c4c.jpg.html)
Oh - Happy Birthday, Jack!
So that's after Goggles breaks it then?
G
So that's after Goggles breaks it then?
G
Hey, Mark -
So I'm going through my spares and I find my spare thermostat.
But then I find my other spare thermostat.
:|
Mark, did you put the thermostat back in the car on Sunday? :roll:
It looks to me as if there is a second small crack in the right hand part and also maybe some evidence of porosity in the material.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
How in the helll do you find time to source all of these obscure postings?
Oh, and Fordboy, the spare spare thermostat is back where it belongs. :wink:
We made Kearney, Nebraska - Ready for some sleep.
Lunch with Jack - wish I could have been there.
I'm in the midst of a decision.
I have the opportunity to leave the Midget, the trailer and the Dodge in Utah, fly home, fly back and pick it up for WOS.
I could be facing the same hydro-issue in 4 weeks that we're facing today, and I'd be out the cost of air fare.
Conversely, I can take it home and jump right into the new engine project without the headache of having the tear the whole car apart for a clean-up, sell a fresh, recently dynoed Formula Jr. engine and recoup enough cash to get a solid start on the new K series.
I'm waiting to hear back from my employees as to their work availability in September.
World Finals is out.
It is always wise to have a contingency plan.... :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Okay, the die is cast.
The Dodge, the trailer and the Midget are going to spend the rest of August in Utah. I'm flying into Denver on the 5th, Nick and I will take his pickup to Utah, and we'll make a show of it at WOS.
Or, if it's still wet, head back to Boulder and get drunk.
Contact Star Fleet Command at the earliest opportunity upon your return to "BeerHaven" . . . . .
Admiral Kirk
Rain? I had so much fun, the racing might have been a distraction.
Go figure.
Locked and loaded for WOS.
Let's try it again. :cheers:
Chris:
Did you know that the Midget is in Huntimer Photography's newest Bonneville Calendar? Not a feature car, but...
http://bonneville-calendar.com/Bonneville-Calendar.com/Calendar.html#7 (http://bonneville-calendar.com/Bonneville-Calendar.com/Calendar.html#7) Feb 2015
I got mine from Mayor Mike at CarQuest.
Mike
SHAZZAAAM!
Looks like my Christmas shopping is done.
How do I order a half dozen?
Thanks, Mike!
Chris
Nancy says that at the SCTA sales trailer this past week or two -- they didn't have the Huntimer calendars. I guess he never showed up with his supply of them. I like getting one each year to hang on the wall 'tween dining area and kitchen -- so I can see it every time I walk around in the house. Gotta get another son - this one is done at the end of August. There's almost always a car (cars only, dang it) that I recognise and know well - and the MM will be fine for this house.
Chris:
Did you know that the Midget is in Huntimer Photography's newest Bonneville Calendar? Not a feature car, but...
http://bonneville-calendar.com/Bonneville-Calendar.com/Calendar.html#7 (http://bonneville-calendar.com/Bonneville-Calendar.com/Calendar.html#7) Feb 2015
I got mine from Mayor Mike at CarQuest.
Mike
Funny things, coincidences. Yesterday youse guys were talking about the Huntimer calendars, and Nancy was telling me that lots of folks at the Bend sales trailer a couple of weeks ago asked for them - - and now I get a note from Tony Huntimer asking if he could maybe exchange some calendars for a bit of advertising them here on landracing.com.
As you might imagine -- it didn't take long for me to explain that since the calendar on the wall at home is just about expired that I'd be happy to work with him. I don't have his response yet, but I hope it'll work out that you can get Huntimer calendars here through the site, and maybe not just buy them - but also have a chance to get them as "premium gifts" for donations or as prizes for a contest or two.
He and I will mull it over for a day or two, but if you want one and haven't got it yet -- keep landracing.com in mind as a source. No, I don't know if he'll be at WoS or WF to sell his stuff.
Stay tuned.
Chris... don't post where you left the Menomonee Valley Rye... let 'em drink the commonly available stuff :-D
See you there
Chris... don't post where you left the Menomonee Valley Rye... let 'em drink the commonly available stuff :-D
See you there
Chris... don't post where you left the Menomonee Valley Rye... let 'em drink the commonly available stuff :-D
See you there
They been usin the off limits stuff in da smoker :mrgreen:
Chris... don't post where you left the Menomonee Valley Rye... let 'em drink the commonly available stuff :-D
See you there
Chris... don't post where you left the Menomonee Valley Rye... let 'em drink the commonly available stuff :-D
See you there
Is that stuff even legal in Utah?
G
All of 'em? :-o :cheers: WaynoChris... don't post where you left the Menomonee Valley Rye... let 'em drink the commonly available stuff :-D
See you there
Is that stuff even legal in Utah?
G
I'm not sure, but I've been told it's best to hide it from your wives . . .
All of 'em? :-o :cheers: WaynoChris... don't post where you left the Menomonee Valley Rye... let 'em drink the commonly available stuff :-D
See you there
Is that stuff even legal in Utah?
G
I'm not sure, but I've been told it's best to hide it from your wives . . .
The Midget may not take the record, but when this car hits the salt, know that I will have done everything in my power to have built the fastest damned stock bodied, naturally aspirated, five-port, one liter Midget ever to hit the salt.
Period.
Cheers!
:cheers:
Man someday you are gonna have to frame that timeslip right next to your record timeslip.
Stan Back,
the dick head didn't let his wife come.
Records are one thing but I wanted to see Katy.
He denied her this trip.
Now Goggles, that's a different deal.
He would likely have been talking to someone and
have missed the tailwind.
He chose guitars over Hot Rod records.
He possibly have been homesick.
FREUD.......
This project started in 2008 if you can believe we wasted that much time on this poor bastard. :evil:
Chris started with more than the average guy when he started this build. In other words, about 5% of what he needed.
The net result was 22 MPH.
Stir in Mark and thousands of posts of advice from this gnarly crowd and BAZINGA!
Next time a newby chimes in we need to direct him here and tell him to come back after he has read the whole thing, redesigned his entire program because of it, and has gained a whole lot of respect for the Grenade.
Tell me YOU didn't learn something from all of this. I sure as hell did.
Chris! You da man!
landracing.com "like" button ---> :cheers:
Mike :mrgreen:
Mr. Gilbert, you need to get the cable tv out of your shop. :mrgreen:
So, Chris, did the mayor get a special beer?
Mike
Mr. Gilbert, you need to get the cable tv out of your shop. :mrgreen:
So, Chris, did the mayor get a special beer?
Mike
Mike, Excellent question about the Mayor's beer.
I forgot to ask about that as I helped them pack up!
Gregg
You finished your important business when you got home to Katy.
FREUD
Some of the photos I took on the 2014 expedition to the Salt:
I'll let Chris post descriptions of the photos.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Some of the photos I took on the 2014 expedition to the Salt:
Nature is in a constant state of change, but a lakebed tends to want to remain a lakebed, as is evidence of the rubble and brine we encountered at Land's End . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2851_zpsfbbd2cd2.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2851_zpsfbbd2cd2.jpg.html)
In line on the combination course. The colored lines were EXTREMELY HELPFUL to my optically challenged eyes, and I encourage the SCTA to adopt this for Speedweek . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2837_zps9d47d009.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2837_zps9d47d009.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2836_zps4d0cab1f.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2836_zps4d0cab1f.jpg.html)
This one is out of sequence, but demonstrates the amount of brine the trip through Land's End splashed upon the car. We were fortunate to pull the rig out of it . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2841_zps772be4a1.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2841_zps772be4a1.jpg.html)
Nick did a super job with limited resources cleaning it up before the runs . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2838_zps9b99766b.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2838_zps9b99766b.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2839_zps84f934f7.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2839_zps84f934f7.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2840_zps66c39aaa.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2840_zps66c39aaa.jpg.html)
Right to left - Nick Martin - President of The Pro's Closet - Austin, the traveling salt gnome - and yours truly - in Warnerville . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2842_zps33caac2c.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2842_zps33caac2c.jpg.html)
Sunday morning, final prep in impound - hoping it will start . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2846_zpsabae0854.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2846_zpsabae0854.jpg.html)
Suiting up for the backup run . . . the second picture shows Gus a ways off - in the bib overalls - Gus, THANK YOU FOR THE GARAGE SPACE THIS LAST MONTH . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2848_zpsd3cecf84.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2848_zpsd3cecf84.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2849_zps9949324b.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2849_zps9949324b.jpg.html)
These last two are out of sequence, but are in impound before the run on Sunday.
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2845_zpse916c542.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2845_zpse916c542.jpg.html)(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/100_2847_zps0a89f9e0.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/100_2847_zps0a89f9e0.jpg.html)
Chris, did I tell you to take it to IMPOUND :cheers:
Chris, did I tell you to take it to IMPOUND :cheers:
.....I LOVE the mountains in the background.
1) Crank hub to rear of block face dimension. Needed to engineer new billet crank to use existing BMC 'A' flywheel, starter, gearbox, input shaft, etc.
2) It would be useful to measure the existing valve to piston dimensions @ various points BTDC & ATDC, for both valves. This would establish a starting point for piston
design.
Love the PBR can!
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0Dew7EVNwwE/VAvNlzkJbTI/AAAAAAAAB74/Sa6pKkK6wwE/w800-h600-no/IMG_0191.JPG)
Love the PBR can!
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0Dew7EVNwwE/VAvNlzkJbTI/AAAAAAAAB74/Sa6pKkK6wwE/w800-h600-no/IMG_0191.JPG)
AMEN!! HA! :-D
"This video is private." Has the mockery started already? :mrgreen:
Mike
Jeez Chris, I don't remember my Midget sounding at all like that. :roll:
I had some local micro brews set aside for Mark and you but Goggles came by and well you know, there history now. :roll:
Don
midget,
Just a thought. Prior to totally dismembering the 'K', we will need a couple of measurements:
1) Crank hub to rear of block face dimension. Needed to engineer new billet crank to use existing BMC 'A' flywheel, starter, gearbox, input shaft, etc.
So convert the Midget to its natural RHD. :lol:
Mike
You could always offset the Kettle to the right. More room for the exhaust & better weight balance side-to-side.
Mike
midget,
Just a thought. Prior to totally dismembering the 'K', we will need a couple of measurements:
1) Crank hub to rear of block face dimension. Needed to engineer new billet crank to use existing BMC 'A' flywheel, starter, gearbox, input shaft, etc.
Okay, let's get started on the Kettle -
The length of the Grenade from the front of the transmission plate to the tip of the damper bolt is 18 3/4".
The length of the Kettle is 19 1/4" from the edge of the back of the engine to the front of the drive pulley - no damper - recessed bolt in drive pulley.
From the transmission plate to the edge of the steering rack is 20 1/4".
So there appears to be the possibility of using the ribcage transmission with the Kettle without having to relocate it.
Ah, yes, boys and girls - the madness is starting ALL OVER AGAIN . . . :cheers:
So there appears to be the possibility of using the ribcage transmission with the Kettle without having to relocate it.
Ahhh - an impending nightmare.
All of the conversions I've seen are right hand drive.
All of the conversion kits I've found are available in Great Britain.
So now I've got to figure out headers . . . which exit on the left . . . right where the steering shaft lives . . . :roll:
Ahhhh . . ., I'll figger it out . . .
all you need is a left hand drive Morris Miner steering rack we did one for road racing a number of years ago.
all you need is a left hand drive Morris Miner steering rack we did one for road racing a number of years ago.
I suspect there might also be a bit of an issue with the roll cage! :-P
Not so simple! :-(
But you were sand bagging anyway, right? 8-)
Well, you could leave the driving position on the left and chain-drive a right-hand drive steering rack.
Neil, that made me laugh out loud! But when you think about it, Chris is tall enough that he could sit on the left side but stick his
arms and legs on the right side to drive the thing. It would give him a bit more leg room.
Pretty cringe worthy to see him squished into that little space!
Well, you could leave the driving position on the left and chain-drive a right-hand drive steering rack.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Well, I drove a stick in Ireland - was able to snap off shifts with little issue, but if I go with a custom exhaust header, I can run the exhaust pipe through the tunnel. The idea starts about 10 pictures down.
http://www.britishracecar.com/ChuckPitt-Spridget.htm
Because I clearly need to further slam this thing . . .
In for a penny, in for a pound . . . Sterling . . .
Chris;
I built a Sable sports- racer and made it left- hand shift; it was no problem at all getting used to shifting with my left hand.
The photo of the exhaust routing through the tunnel looks like it puts lots of heat into the oil pan.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Chris;
I built a Sable sports- racer and made it left- hand shift; it was no problem at all getting used to shifting with my left hand.
The photo of the exhaust routing through the tunnel looks like it puts lots of heat into the oil pan.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I'm only driving three miles. :-D
Plan BIG, Chris, have GREAT EXPECTATIONS! :mrgreen:
Mike
130, the way it was handling on the backup run?
I wouldn't do it, and I certainly wouldn't let anybody else driving it take the risk.
There will be more than just an engine swap, but there will be no roll cage testing.
I've got to get the suspension set up for bad salt - then we can take advantage of good salt.
What about a straight front axle?
Enough about the future of the race car!
Looks like there's going to be a major crisis in Milwaukee for Mr. Midget in the near future! :-o
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pabst-sold-russian-beverage-company-195910431.html :cry:
What will happen to his beloved PBR? :? Will it be turned into some borscht swill? :?
Stay tuned! :-D
Gregg :cheers:
The Sprecher Vienna Lager and Pub Ale's are among my favorites. I think I've shared some of it with a few of you.
The Sprecher Vienna Lager and Pub Ale's are among my favorites. I think I've shared some of it with a few of you.
My feelings are hurt! :cry:
Do I need to do another road trip up there to savor one (or several) of these with you and Mrs. Midget? :-o :roll: :evil: :-D :cheers:
Gregg
Talk to Bleed. He can fab you a fine header.
Chris, I don't care what you answered early to my post but I just LOVE your tag:
Bonneville I/GT record holder - 122.539 mph
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I was so fortunate to be there to see that happen!!!!!
Gregg
OK
We'll talk about your possible road trip later!
To those of you who are wondering about Midwest Fabrication, here's their website. They are busy . . . and I ADORE THEIR WORK!
http://www.midwest-fabrication.com/
Here's one for you, Chris!
"Pabst Project" in Portland: http://www.pamplinmedia.com/pt/11-features/234624-98272-project-pabst (http://www.pamplinmedia.com/pt/11-features/234624-98272-project-pabst)
Matt Slessler, a field marketing representative for Pabst Blue Ribbon, says Portland is at the heart of his company’s body of sales.
“We sell more Pabst in Portland than anywhere in the U.S.,” he says. (Pretty surprising in a city with so many craft brewers.)
...more...(the music looks be really ugly IMO)
:cheers:
Mike
Izzat your new push truck? :cheers: BTW I test drove it and I really really like it. :wink: Thanx Bub. Wayno
My God you look like Dan Akroid......
You're still in your youth.
You're still in your youth.
And I intend to stay that way! At least mentally! :cheers:
You're never too old to have a happy childhood....
growing old is required
growing up is optional
:cheers:
Milwaukee Midget said: "And I intend to stay that way! At least mentally!"
For a few years now (don't ask how many, please) I've described myself as "rapidly approaching middle age". Let them in the audience figure out what I mean by that. :evil:
Milwaukee Midget said: "And I intend to stay that way! At least mentally!"
For a few years now (don't ask how many, please) I've described myself as "rapidly approaching middle age". Let them in the audience figure out what I mean by that. :evil:
midget,
Will be UNAVAILABLE today between 11am & 3:30pm . . . . . .
Rite of autumn, Chicago version . . . . . .
GO BEARS!!!!
:cheers:
packerhaterboy
I find myself cheering the Cardinals in October with regularity. STL is a baseball town.
Cool indeed, Chris, Thank you so much for giving the Jade Grenade one more chance to prove its self. :cheers:
Well, shucks!
Racing Junk's News and Events department got us some virtual ink!
Last year's pictures, for certain - Neither Kate nor Simon were around, and the request came before I had Gregg's or Pork Pie's shots available, but needless to say, I'm tickled.
http://www.racingjunk.com/news/2014/10/02/mg-midget-sets-record-at-bonneville/
midget,
Nice coverage.
And now for the bad news . . . . .
Publicity brings notoriety.
Pretty soon the paparazzi will be on your doorstep, in your face and your life will be ruined. But Snooki and Lindsey Lohan will want to date you . . . . . .
Be careful about what you wish for . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
oktoberfestboy
mebbe I had one too many . . . . . .
Maybe not Snookie or JWow - but I believe that Tonya Harding has some association with LSR.
Steve.
Ha! with broken knee caps Chris would fit in the car easier!
Monte, did you show any indication that you'd like to have tried getting into Chris' car when he made his runs? I don't know which of you is taller -- but I can see that a video of you attempting to clamber in might have been worth seeing on the internet - and maybe also at the USFRA dinner banquet in December. Better than your Karnack routine, for sure. :evil:
Maybe not Snookie or JWow - but I believe that Tonya Harding has some association with LSR.
Steve.
... Can this website software handle 4-digit page numbers?...Nobody knows? :?
I think MM needs a new build thread for the K motor. 8-)
OK, let me say up front that this is a harebrained idea. What about cleaning the hydraulic lifters thoroughly and then injecting them full of a hard epoxy? It's OK to laugh but tell me why it won't work :?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Looks like they’ve been converted to solid by others – but my concern is the diaptre one would need to grind on the face of the tappet to work with an appropriate cam, if that would leave enough material on the face to be safe, and how hard one would need to treat them.
Looks like they’ve been converted to solid by others – but my concern is the diaptre one would need to grind on the face of the tappet to work with an appropriate cam, if that would leave enough material on the face to be safe, and how hard one would need to treat them.
Well, maybe the buckets are more substantial than I thought.
The face is .088, the sides, .033.
Chris,
I assume you are aware of the following. Seems to have a lot of useful information on the K-series. Apparently some people have been down this road before...
http://kengine.dvapower.com/
Okay, a die cast head -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN5497_zps834ec645.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN5497_zps834ec645.jpg.html)
Huge tappet surface –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN5505_zpsaab88562.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN5505_zpsaab88562.jpg.html)
Cam girdle/ladder –
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN5501_zpsa143fc5b.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN5501_zpsa143fc5b.jpg.html)
I didn’t just fall off of the turnip truck, but gut level, if I were to have designed this engine, I think I’d have gone with a different surface for cam bearings than just the die cast aluminum itself – Maybe this is the way it’s done today, but I don’t much care for it -
I’m seeing some wear in the bearing surfaces on the ends – they don’t quite pass the fingernail test, but the cams look fine. Maybe a surface machining of the head and the girdle and an align hone? Or maybe not worry about it.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN5503_zps5d732d1f.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN5503_zps5d732d1f.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN5504_zpsaa98e804.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN5504_zpsaa98e804.jpg.html)
I’ve got to figure out how to bypass the hydraulics in the tappets to get some accurate valve to piston measurements.
R-E-L-A-X. . . .
Chris, no reason for concern on where the cam rides in the cylinder head. Being in the automotive repair business, I can't recall seeing an overhead cam engine where the camshaft doesn't ride directly on the aluminum of the head. IMHO the only down side to your head is the headache of valve adjustment. Just be glad they didn't design it with a rocker arm that lives below the cam ie; Ford 5.4 and 4.6 V8s, as well as the Dodge 4.7 V8. I'm sure there's many more... Just seems like too many moving parts to me.
... a lot of bearings are aluminum alloy these days...Umm... I guess "these days" means the last half-century? GM high-performance bearing (Moraine M-400) overlays were mostly aluminum; first available about 1960. :-)
... a lot of bearings are aluminum alloy these days...Umm... I guess "these days" means the last half-century? GM high-performance bearing (Moraine M-400) overlays were mostly aluminum; first available about 1960. :-)
"a huge dedication to careful and precise build techniques and tolerances."
I've decided to maintain this thread with the Kettle build. It should be easy to remember - anything regarding the K series will be starting on page 300. Simple delineation, I think.
This is the oiling ladder - bolts to the bottom of the main girdle . . . no gasket, seal or silicone, which is all fine and well if the block doesn't twist and the machining is flat. Even the oil pan - a cast aluminum piece - had no seal. Is Rover so damned cheap that they can't afford a very thin piece of paper?
I've decided to maintain this thread with the Kettle build. It should be easy to remember - anything regarding the K series will be starting on page 300. Simple delineation, I think.
This is the oiling ladder - bolts to the bottom of the main girdle . . . no gasket, seal or silicone, which is all fine and well if the block doesn't twist and the machining is flat. Even the oil pan - a cast aluminum piece - had no seal. Is Rover so damned cheap that they can't afford a very thin piece of paper?
And if it had the thin piece of paper (as in RS1600 Ford Capris), it would still leak and be able to squirm around.
Having had MUCH experience with this type of setup, the ONLY way to prevent leaks or movement is to utilize a thin film of RTV sealant between the parts. Solves two problems, leakage & structural strength. The tried & true method used by Keith Black, Donovan, Cosworth, Renault, Ferrari, etc. Gets my vote also. Yes, it is a PITA, hence reserved for final assembly . . . . .
:cheers:
Kungfupandaboy
RTV at the girdle joint had a problem with adhesive delamination when subjected to shear loads.
Rick;
I remember that Loctite stuff you mentioned. It was supposed to have decent shear strength and I used it to seal the two- piece aluminum case of a trick Corvair engine that I built. I wonder what ever happened to that product, I have not seen it in decades.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
On this thing, I simply don't think it will have the "forgiveness factor" of a cast iron 5-port tractor motor.
10 really long bolts - springs, as Sparky points out - sandwiching it all together.
I'm really going to have to be on my game this time. I suspect my old friend, "Dumb Luck", will not be knocking on my door as often on this one.
On this thing, I simply don't think it will have the "forgiveness factor" of a cast iron 5-port tractor motor.
10 really long bolts - springs, as Sparky points out - sandwiching it all together.
I'm really going to have to be on my game this time. I suspect my old friend, "Dumb Luck", will not be knocking on my door as often on this one.
I think you should fabricate a custom alternator bracket.
I'd start with two pieces of quite heavy plate, maybe inch. Have one cnc'd to fit over the head and the other a snug fit to bear on the lower skirt and use it as the sump attachment, then I'd connect them with at least 14 high tensile bolts of maybe 58dia. Then you can hang the alt off it somewhere......... :roll:
... I'm not doing this one twice...Isn't that what we all say? :roll:
... I'm not doing this one twice...Isn't that what we all say? :roll:
... I'm not doing this one twice...Isn't that what we all say? :roll:
Forgive my ignorance but does the k series use metric??? was this from the collaboration from Honda or built in Europe or? ... i am not sure if the midget will understand all this new fangledness
... I'm not doing this one twice...Isn't that what we all say? :roll:
Yup . . .
Time and time again.
But THIS time, I'm going to stamp out and alleviate redundancy. :cheers:
Now, what with all this metricity, I'm wondering if you're going to go the full whack.
Some words for you to contemplate,
Metperial
Impetric.
Metworth
BSM
Whitric.
:wink:
sorry I'm just in a generally annoying mood today.
Some words for you to contemplate,
Metperial
Impetric.
Metworth
BSM
Whitric.
:wink:
sorry I'm just in a generally annoying mood today.
sorry I'm just in a generally annoying mood today.
sorry I'm just in a generally annoying mood today.
Generally annoying is not at all like you, usually you are very annoying. :-D
I think this may be progress. :cheers:
Okay, I’ve mentioned the “Sandwich” construction of the K-series, but after cleaning up the gunk in the block and started putting 2 and 2 together, this kinda frightened me.
I sourced these two photos from MG-rover.org . The spindly piece is the stock unit, which I have. The other die casting is the “uprated” version.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCF00381_zpsec18d2a8.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCF00381_zpsec18d2a8.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCF00371_zpsc9ea0527.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCF00371_zpsc9ea0527.jpg.html)
If all it did was supply oil to the mains, that would be okay, but the 10 holes around the perimeter are the tapped holes for the head stud long bolts. So essentially, the whole engine is held together by this piece and 10 “springs”.
Of course, I would want the heavier duty item of the two. But ideally, I would prefer a steel piece. My concern in fabricating a steel replacement is expansion rates and potential sheer and shifting. But even this uprated oil ladder/girdle retainer looks – well, kinda cheap.
I know – relax – take a breath – all good advice. Yes, die casting has come a long way, but I’m questioning everything this time – especially a threaded die casting intended to hold the whole engine together.
Would it be possible to drill through and use nuts on a longer stud. If you don't trust stude threaded into the casting?
WHY? ?
I thought I was missing something.Would it be possible to drill through and use nuts on a longer stud. If you don't trust stude threaded into the casting?
Rich, I would prefer a stud, but these bolts are 16 1/4" long.
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-WAM2293KIT
ARP makes a replacement set which permits greater clamp load, but at some point the aluminum threads becomes the weak link, versus the bolt. They don't make an extra long version of it, so nuts and washers are out.
WHY? ?
For the same reason we junked the aluminum rocker pillars on the Grenade for beautifully crafted steel replacements - stability.
Maybe do this first: http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=263efee65a04cf9ee8555288d&id=ab62dffe6a&e=6a24d5c630
MM, I have a couple more questions. Is it bigger than a bread box?
Chris,
Pitch the "oil ladder" in the bin and replace it with a one inch steel plate that covers the entire bottom of your motor. Have drain back galleys water jet cut in the plate to allow oil to flow to the pan, make the plate so that it bolts on to the block by all of the ladder studs and the pan bolts. Have the crank oil distribution line be external and fabbed out of proper AN fittings and stainless steel tubing and make the mating oil holes in the "plate" be proper O ring seals to the block. Have the plate surface ground so that it is flat and parallel within .0005 to .001 inches, have the tapped holes for the long tie bolts be threaded with a roll thread tap. Yes you will have to do a lot of measuring and make a fairly complex drawing but when you are done you have just made the bottom of the engine almost indestructible and no problem about oil leaks or aluminum threads pulling out.
Rex
Chris,
Pitch the "oil ladder" in the bin and replace it with a one inch steel plate that covers the entire bottom of your motor. Have drain back galleys water jet cut in the plate to allow oil to flow to the pan, make the plate so that it bolts on to the block by all of the ladder studs and the pan bolts. Have the crank oil distribution line be external and fabbed out of proper AN fittings and stainless steel tubing and make the mating oil holes in the "plate" be proper O ring seals to the block. Have the plate surface ground so that it is flat and parallel within .0005 to .001 inches, have the tapped holes for the long tie bolts be threaded with a roll thread tap. Yes you will have to do a lot of measuring and make a fairly complex drawing but when you are done you have just made the bottom of the engine almost indestructible and no problem about oil leaks or aluminum threads pulling out.
Rex
I think you should fabricate a custom alternator bracket.
I'd start with two pieces of quite heavy plate, maybe inch. Have one cnc'd to fit over the head and the other a snug fit to bear on the lower skirt and use it as the sump attachment, then I'd connect them with at least 14 high tensile bolts of maybe 58dia. Then you can hang the alt off it somewhere......... :roll:
Chris,
Pitch the "oil ladder" in the bin and replace it with a one inch steel plate that covers the entire bottom of your motor. Have drain back galleys water jet cut in the plate to allow oil to flow to the pan, make the plate so that it bolts on to the block by all of the ladder studs and the pan bolts. Have the crank oil distribution line be external and fabbed out of proper AN fittings and stainless steel tubing and make the mating oil holes in the "plate" be proper O ring seals to the block. Have the plate surface ground so that it is flat and parallel within .0005 to .001 inches, have the tapped holes for the long tie bolts be threaded with a roll thread tap. Yes you will have to do a lot of measuring and make a fairly complex drawing but when you are done you have just made the bottom of the engine almost indestructible and no problem about oil leaks or aluminum threads pulling out.
Rex
I think that's what I said, with a little more economy....... :wink:
love ya work Rex.
I think you should fabricate a custom alternator bracket.
I'd start with two pieces of quite heavy plate, maybe inch. Have one cnc'd to fit over the head and the other a snug fit to bear on the lower skirt and use it as the sump attachment, then I'd connect them with at least 14 high tensile bolts of maybe 58dia. Then you can hang the alt off it somewhere......... :roll:
" ... expansion rates are my concern." Think of all the aluminum cylinder heads mounted on top of cast iron blocks and doweled.
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Bonneville%20Engine/2014020107_zps1c2118ec.jpg)
This is based on what Roush used in Trans-Am in the mid to late '80s with maybe 800 hp. Looking (hoping) for ~1000 hp.
No one has suggested a problem with different expansion rates, then or now.
Mike
Is there a possibility of threading the pass-through holes in the block to a full-threaded size top and bottom for two sets of studs?
What kind of hp/rpm are they making with larger displacements using the ARP bolts?
(http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/dunno_zps09e85c3d.gif)
Mike
... Aluminum expands at about twice the rate of steel, and if these were two abutted 12 inch solid billets of both metals, you could expect the difference between the two at 220 degrees to be about .020 [inch]...I figure closer to about .012" (if "matched" @ 60` F, raised to 220` F). Or were you planning to do the build at 0` F? :lol:
Also:
See if you can dig up the tensile strength of the 'stock' assembly bolt. Then the potential increase in clamp load can be calculated.
Keep in mind, blindly increasing clamp load can induce distortion in light alloy diecastings . . . . .
I suspect that the increase will ease your fears, well, after Halloween anyway . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Ichabodcraneboy
. . . I also suggest that you do not 'buy' trouble, that you address it when it appears.
The latest advance in craft brewing: http://www.oregonlive.com/beer/index.ssf/2014/10/oregon_beer_to_go_growlerwerks.html#incart_m-rpt-1 (http://www.oregonlive.com/beer/index.ssf/2014/10/oregon_beer_to_go_growlerwerks.html#incart_m-rpt-1)
You do have growlers there, don't you?
:cheers: :cheers:
Mike
Further to Icabod’s request on the stock bolt--in the photos it appears that the bolt has a tapered or stepped body. It would be useful if you could document the diameters and lengths of the body section(s).
... Aluminum expands at about twice the rate of steel, and if these were two abutted 12 inch solid billets of both metals, you could expect the difference between the two at 220 degrees to be about .020 [inch]...I figure closer to about .012" (if "matched" @ 60` F, raised to 220` F). Or were you planning to do the build at 0` F? :lol:
Have you considered using Time-Sert s to cure some of those problems. Much better than Thread-Sert s.
... if these were two abutted 12 inch solid billets... difference between the two at 220 degrees to be about .020 [inches]...What length of adjoining metals (steel/aluminum) are you trying to compare for thermal expansion? I assumed 12". But we're not even close on our results.
.....I'm picking up a disassembled Bugeye on Saturday.
Given these numbers, it would seem that there isn’t a lot of margin provided on the clamp load. The stress level seems reasonable and the need for a stiff gasket is apparent. However, the half-turn of the bolt seems too simplistic. Is that turn predicated on a preliminary draw-up? Something like “Torque it to XX to stack things together, THEN apply the half-turn”. That would gain some margin in clamp force. Midget--is there anything like this in the assembly manual? Also, do they say anything about re-torqueing?
And we're going to do what with said Bugeye?
And we're going to do what with said Bugeye?
Think along the lines of a cartoonish little British Rat Rod . . .
Start with:
(http://www.tvsa.co.za/images/shows/w/wreck_rescue_1.jpg)
End up with:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/problemaddict/SpriteRod.jpg)
or
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/puppies56/Sprite001.jpg)
Keep in mind, I may drive it to Wendover next summer . . .
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/puppies56/Sprite001.jpg)
You could start with is and get it out of my way before I drop a blown sbc in it.
You could start with (th)is and get it out of my way before I drop a blown sbc in it.
You could start with is and get it out of my way before I drop a blown sbc in it.
Frank, Don't know if you have this but here is the britishv8.org link for MG conversions:
http://www.britishv8.org/Photos-MG-Conversions.htm
Gregg
midget,
Atsa lotta Bugeye!!!
:cheers:
Fordboy
Okay, week didn't go as I had planned.
Tentative report is that the head is up to snuff, but there was what was described as some "leakage" where the sleeves are pressed into the block. As we're planning one replacing the sleeves, and I think Fordboy has a remedy at hand for this, I'm not too worried.
It sure looks much better all cleaned up. But that open deck makes me queasy...
The latest advance in craft brewing: http://www.oregonlive.com/beer/index.ssf/2014/10/oregon_beer_to_go_growlerwerks.html#incart_m-rpt-1 (http://www.oregonlive.com/beer/index.ssf/2014/10/oregon_beer_to_go_growlerwerks.html#incart_m-rpt-1)
You do have growlers there, don't you?
:cheers: :cheers:
Mike
Recognizing the limitations, what CR would you like to see? Realistically. (yah, yah, as much as you can get etc, I know) 4 valve, pent roof, central plug all help combustion processes but what does Mark think would be nice? Real world?
Recognizing the limitations, what CR would you like to see? Realistically. (yah, yah, as much as you can get etc, I know) 4 valve, pent roof, central plug all help combustion processes but what does Mark think would be nice? Real world?
Realistically, I'm more worried about the right combination. That's what will determine the CR.
I have no idea what the piston top displaces, what the combustion chamber volume is, or what cam characteristics we'll need to make it work.
I do know we'll be able to pick up a few CCs on the piston top design . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/piston_zps9fadd709.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/piston_zps9fadd709.jpg.html)
"Apex Automotive was opened by Bill Truesdale in 1973 for one reason...he couldn't find anyone to do the kind of work he needed done on his race car. A 1967 Lotus Series II Europa."
http://www.apexae.com/about/index.html (http://www.apexae.com/about/index.html)
Mike
Absolutely true. Bill got tired of being f'ed around by the likes of the "Wizard Works" and "Speed Performance".
:cheers:
Fordboy
Chris, is this the racing version of your car?.
Chris, is this the racing version of your car?.
I'm asking because a guy over here has molds for this front end and wants parts made.
Sorry for the jack.
This is what's needed, but sadly illegal.
(http://www.modelcarsmag.com/forums/uploads/gallery_5771_306_74120.jpg)
If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on: 13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R
If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on: 13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R
is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?
Andy
If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on: 13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R
is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?
Andy
If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on: 13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R
is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?
Andy
Mark's anticipating higher volumetric efficiency - thus the 115% - but as to actual static or dynamic CR, until we know what the head flows, the volume of the combustion chamber, what cams can be made to work, where they close and the piston displacement, we're still at guess work.
If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on: 13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R
is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?
Andy
I don't know the "efficiency loss" numbers for 4000 feet of elevation change off the top of my head, but 13% is in the "ballpark". So, yes, that is what I am thinking.
In reference to post 4621, the lobe center angle and other aspect of cam timing can be adjusted to bring your peak torque and HP rpms down to reasonable levels.
I don't understand why you would worry more about your transmission, clutch, and driveshaft with the 12,000 RPM version than you would with the 8-9,000 RPM motor. If the horsepower is the same, then the lower RPM motor will have a higher peak torque which is what your clutch, tranny, and driveshaft will need to sustain. Unless the higher RPM is detrimental to gears and bearings, the strength requirement should be reduced with the higher RPM motor.
Tom
Not sure that I would be concerned about the drive shaft, when I was working for a Mazda team we would buzz them to 11,000 in sprint races and with the tranny having a 15% over drive the drive shaft would typically see 12,000+ and we never had a problem. Your concern about tranny lubrication is warranted, a few additional rpm would not be a problem but a 25%+ increase is probably to much. Yes rpm if properly applied make horse power and it is horse power that makes speed but you don't need to make new problems that require large development when staying in the 9-10 grand area will get you to your goal. Ever seen a clutch explode at 12K, messy, very messy even with a good shield.
Rex
What would the nose alone be worth?
Mike
Those are nice little V8s. What are you asking $
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
What does "twin vector induction" amount to? (couldn't find the answer with a short search).
What does "twin vector induction" amount to? (couldn't find the answer with a short search).
That system is amazing- I'm not sure they have a website or any online info. the designer runs two ports to each intake valve (2) to give tumble as well as swirl in the chamber, flows well and makes gobs of power on an engine that is running old design cams and other stuff.. Wait till they develop it! And the head casting (the designer poured it himself- literally- after 3D printing the sand molds!!) looks like a production piece.What does "twin vector induction" amount to? (couldn't find the answer with a short search).
Short answer - more HP! :-D Count the stacks Jack! :-o
Wow Chris!!! I'm not an autograph seeker, I'd rather have a quiet conversation with the personality and I've had several of those opportunities over the years. I value the memories much more highly than I would a signature. I do have several signed books and when you can connect those with a story it makes the book so much more valuable to you. That is a great keepsake. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
Only autograph I have is Al Teague's. Don't think I need any more.
Recently had a great sit-sown with out local NPR affiliate station, WUWM, 89.7 FM.
Mitch Teich, the host, was originally from Iowa and went to school not 10 miles away from where I grew up, so we had a lot in common.
It must have been a pretty good offer to move to Wisconsin - he was the news director for Arizona Public Radio when he took this job!
If you want to hear it, it's available at this link.
http://wuwm.com/post/tuesday-lake-effect-northwestern-mutual-odonnell-park-attracting-tech-start-ups
The interview starts at 36:18.
Chris, you are rapidly becoming Beerhaven's most prominent citizen! :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Looks like MG mag ran the right story next to yours... $90,000 MG...
GOOD GRAVY!! Looked in on the Video and was startled to see Basil Brush as the Spokesfox.....Took me back to my childhood, it did. All you English and Commonwealth fellas know what err who I mean...Chris...You should Google Basil and you`ll see what I mean.....Talk about recycling..... :cheers: :-D :evil:
Chris,
Looks like patina on floorpan has been disturbed. What did you do???? Also, this being a highly technical build diary, those are most likely Hickory nuts not Acorns.
Terry
fordboy628, You are amazing.
You could also depress anyone without a plan for
building their engine. But if they have been planning
to go to Bonneville since 1975 engine details aren't
relevant anyhow.
FREUD
Chris,
Were you blindfolded and led on snowshoes to this undisclosed location?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
fordboy628,
You could also depress anyone without a plan for
building their engine.
FREUD
Here's what I learned from this - so far -
To an average hot rodder with a Jegs or Summit catalog, a subscription to Hot Rod and friends who drag race or oval track - it appears easy to bolt together that 700 horse small block or order up a crate engine and go racing.
Then reality sets in.
fordboy628,
You could also depress anyone without a plan for
building their engine.
FREUD
Here's what I learned from this - so far -
To an average hot rodder with a Jegs or Summit catalog, a subscription to Hot Rod and friends who drag race or oval track - it appears easy to bolt together that 700 horse small block or order up a crate engine and go racing.
Then reality sets in.
Hey midget,
Did a THOROUGH search of both Summit & Jeg's online catalogs . . . . . .
NO ROVER 'K' parts, whatsoever!!
Go figure!! :? :wink:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Fordboy
Isn't that like throwing salt in a wound. :? :? :cheers:
Ron
I'm looking for a single sponsor who I can work with and provide an uncluttered vehicle to get their message out, plus support for their product.
Maybe try the long racing history angle that they should see in their new products....
After all, the MG is faster than an Abarth... and Fiat is working that part of their history. Finding that spot where your foot fits in their door may be the hardest part.
I probably wouldn't say the fastest English tractor motors on earth :roll: :cheers:
Fordboy,
A few questions about the Holiday Gift treatise..
1) What is your definition of “flow demand”?
2) On what basis is a new BMEP determined due to a proposed change in compression ratio?
3) Despite a fairly thorough examination of the SuperFlow website, the “well published formula” for horsepower remained undiscovered. Could you please provide more guidance?
4) It has been my understanding that flow bench data is generated at a fixed pressure differential. If that is the case, how do you generate realistic inlet cycle flow rates vs. valve position for varying cylinder pressures? Are flow coefficients found for each valve position? Seems like there would be a circular dependence between cylinder pressure during the cycle and the flow rate. Is this resolved using an iterative process?
Chris,
I'm new here but have been lurking for a long time. Should you need any help in sourcing stuff from the UK for a K series then give me a shout as I'm on the right island on this side of the pond.
I should in all honesty, mention that it was reading your stuff on Faceache that gave me an idea to build something to run on the salty stuff and it is Midget based but luckily in another class.
Cheers,
Ian
If I may introduce to you - Frankensprite -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/frankensprite_zpszfhzsix1.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/frankensprite_zpszfhzsix1.jpg.html)
Uh-oh . . . . . .
Why am I getting the feeling that Frankensprite is destined for serious "salination"?
(If only on the side streets and back alleys of Beerhaven . . . . .)
:?
F/B
Uh-oh . . . . . .
Why am I getting the feeling that Frankensprite is destined for serious "salination"?
(If only on the side streets and back alleys of Beerhaven . . . . .)
:?
F/B
It won't be seeing the street until we get past the snow and we've had a solid rain to rinse the salt away.
But speaking of salt - I did get a friendly retweet from our good friends at OSH -
https://twitter.com/MilwaukeeMidget/status/554848564770533376
The January issue of MG Enthusiast is still not available at Barnes and Noble, at least not in Milwaukee, but the February issue has hit the stands in Great Britain.
And Mr. Goldsworthy, the editor, has been very gracious in his description - although I think "epic proportions" might be a bit of hyperbole.
http://mgenthusiast.com/blog/1248-eds-blog-february-2015-issue
I need to start refocusing on 2016. I don't want to be scrambling 18 months from now.
The January issue of MG Enthusiast is still not available at Barnes and Noble, at least not in Milwaukee, but the February issue has hit the stands in Great Britain.
And Mr. Goldsworthy, the editor, has been very gracious in his description - although I think "epic proportions" might be a bit of hyperbole.
http://mgenthusiast.com/blog/1248-eds-blog-february-2015-issue
I need to start refocusing on 2016. I don't want to be scrambling 18 months from now.
Fordboy- in one of your excellent posts here you mentioned the effect of rod ratio on flow demand and position of that max. Along with this was the comment that a 4 valve head with better low lift flow than the average 2 valve would, generally speaking, work better with a shorter rod (lower rod ratio) to take advantage of the low lift flow since location of peak demand was somewhat sooner in the cycle. Since you and Midget will need to destroke the K motor to fit the class how are you planning to help mitigate this issue or take advantage of it. You can't just shorten the rods or you get a seriously top heavy piston (longer compression height) which has it's own disadvantages. I am particularly interested as I find myself with a short block with similar issues and am going from a very good 2 valve head to a very good 4 valve head that does indeed have better low lift flow, but similar high lift flow to the 2 valve. I'm not sure there is anything I can do but am curious what possibilities there may be. The 4 valve head was designed for the displacement I am running but the bore and stroke are a bit different than what it was designed for. Less of a mismatch than the 2 valve head was. Thoughts?
Jack
I am particularly interested as I find myself with a short block with similar issues and am going from a very good 2 valve head to a very good 4 valve head that does indeed have better low lift flow, but similar high lift flow to the 2 valve. I'm not sure there is anything I can do but am curious what possibilities there may be. The 4 valve head was designed for the displacement I am running but the bore and stroke are a bit different than what it was designed for. Less of a mismatch than the 2 valve head was. Thoughts?
Jack
Despite a fairly thorough examination of the SuperFlow website, the “well published formula” for horsepower remained undiscovered. Could you please provide more guidance?
My engine is bore 3.883, stroke 2.58, 122 CI, 6.25 rod for 2.44 R/S. The original engine (some difficulty finding numbers as being a race engine such stuff is not generally published) had bore 3.66 (I have a piston so pretty sure of that), stroke 2.9,for same displacement, rod length about 155mm (6.11in) for 2.1 R/S ratio. So bore is 6%, stroke 12% and RR 16%= "significantly" :-o
I am particularly interested as I find myself with a short block with similar issues and am going from a very good 2 valve head to a very good 4 valve head that does indeed have better low lift flow, but similar high lift flow to the 2 valve. I'm not sure there is anything I can do but am curious what possibilities there may be. The 4 valve head was designed for the displacement I am running but the bore and stroke are a bit different than what it was designed for. Less of a mismatch than the 2 valve head was. Thoughts?
Jack
What are the differences, specifically? I tend to be more concerned about total displacement as a factor, UNLESS, the bore, stroke, rod/stroke ratio are significantly different. Ie: greater than 4/5% different.
And, for anybody who thinks 4/5% is not significant, would you give up 4/5% of your airflow or displacement? ? Most guys work pretty hard for 4/5% . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Chris,
I'm new here but have been lurking for a long time. Should you need any help in sourcing stuff from the UK for a K series then give me a shout as I'm on the right island on this side of the pond.
I should in all honesty, mention that it was reading your stuff on Faceache that gave me an idea to build something to run on the salty stuff and it is Midget based but luckily in another class.
Cheers,
Ian
Ian -
So you're looking to do a turbine Sprite! :-o
I know NOTHING of turbines or how they're classed for Bonneville, but I WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN. Keep us posted.
One other thing - Your handle inspired me, and I ran with it for a small decal I intend to put on my 215 Buick Frogeye, which has got a bit of a rat-rod vibe going on.
With your permission, I'm thinking of putting this on the deck, just opposite the fuel cap.
If I may introduce to you - Frankensprite -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/frankensprite_zpszfhzsix1.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/frankensprite_zpszfhzsix1.jpg.html)
Also have you considered a fastback hardtop like this
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3243/3155813331_b0d8a39460_z.jpg)
The guy that sent it to me reckons that on a standard Midget it improved the top speed from 95 to about 100.
:cheers:
Also have you considered a fastback hardtop like this
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3243/3155813331_b0d8a39460_z.jpg)
The guy that sent it to me reckons that on a standard Midget it improved the top speed from 95 to about 100.
:cheers:
Just the thing for your project, but I think not class legal for Chris's.
My engine is bore 3.883, stroke 2.58, 122 CI, 6.25 rod for 2.44 R/S. The original engine (some difficulty finding numbers as being a race engine such stuff is not generally published) had bore 3.66 (I have a piston so pretty sure of that), stroke 2.9,for same displacement, rod length about 155mm (6.11in) for 2.1 R/S ratio. So bore is 6%, stroke 12% and RR 16%= "significantly" :-o
At this point, peak piston demand is at about 78.3* (rod at 90* to crank throw) and is 307 CFM (according to some software I have). Head flows 345+ at that point>
Compression height on the piston is 1.480 and I don't want to make it more, which would require new rods, change the piston order already placed and increase weight of the piston to boot.
Pipemax for the demand, and the visual engine function of EA Pro to get valve lift at crank angle plus the flow chart to match.
My engine is bore 3.883, stroke 2.58, 122 CI, 6.25 rod for 2.44 R/S. The original engine (some difficulty finding numbers as being a race engine such stuff is not generally published) had bore 3.66 (I have a piston so pretty sure of that), stroke 2.9,for same displacement, rod length about 155mm (6.11in) for 2.1 R/S ratio. So bore is 6%, stroke 12% and RR 16%= "significantly" :-o
At this point, peak piston demand is at about 78.3* (rod at 90* to crank throw) and is 307 CFM (according to some software I have). Head flows 345+ at that point>
Compression height on the piston is 1.480 and I don't want to make it more, which would require new rods, change the piston order already placed and increase weight of the piston to boot.
Jack,
Which software are you using for your calculations?
Just curious.
Fordboy
Okay, I got the rear end mocked up on the Pom Rod -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN5579_zpsvydvqtul.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN5579_zpsvydvqtul.jpg.html)
There's something about a chrome cover on a 10 bolt that just screams "hot rod". About 3/4" of clearance on the inside, but any pretence of keeping things subtle are 86ed if I keep the gumballs . . .
Anybody got a set of Vega GT or Chevy Monza wheels they'd like to trade?
Don't think subtle is going to keep it hooked up . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Well, well, well . . . . . Better late to the table than never, I guess.
http://www.mossmotoring.com/worlds-fastest-midget/
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Hi Chris,
It's begging time!
Can you please find out the inside height of your hardtop from the top of the doors? The Lenham's roof line seems to be a lot lower :-(
Cheers,
Ian
Chris,
In the process of gathering an all inclusive image folder of all the MM images. Want a copy when it's finished? Might be BIG . . . may need to go on a DD, er, DVD . . . :roll:
:cheers:
F/B
Some of the photos I took on the 2014 expedition to the Salt:
I'll let Chris post descriptions of the photos.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Got it, Chief.
Well, first off, despite Fordboy's aptitude for all things mathematical, he clearly has no idea how to correct the photo-date function on his camera.
That's okay - he remembered to bring the bottle opener. :cheers:
New power plant diary OR, 'A' Vs. 'K'
midget,
Just downloaded a nifty program which calculates "flow demand" based on geometry, and presumably, other parameters like V/E.
Spiffy part is: that it also can graph the calculations Vs. crank position.
It was cheap enough, so I'm going to play around with it a bit and let you know what I think. Probably has somewhat limited features based on the price, but again, I'll let you know.
:cheers:
Fordboy
What is your new "nifty" program?
Looks interesting but without cam profile curves I'm stuck. Is there a library somewhere that has manufacturer's cam profile numbers?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Thanks, Fordboy. I'll contact Crower to see if they can provide profile data on my cam.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
The cynic in me suspects you'll discover it's a closely guarded secret.
Thanks, Chris. Yes, that Crower cam profile is probably not anything that isn't duplicated closely by other cam grinders; reverse- engineering a profile should be easy with the right equipment. Some engine analyzer programs have a library of grinds so I thought someone might know of some profile info on a Crower 00427. This is for a relatively mild engine that I'll use to get the car sorted out.EAPro shows this as a SBC, hydraulic roller. LSA 112 recommended install at 108/116 centers (ie 4* advanced). 260/266 at .050, lobe lift .390/.398 with 1.5 rockers. Interesting they give a lash number of .026 and .028 though list it as a HR. Ramp intensity listed as 30.5 and 25.5. This is grind number 290R with seat duration ratings of 290/296.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Thanks- your data matches my cam card except Crower says it is a mechanical roller cam, not a hydraulic. I thought the cam profile data needed was lift vs degrees of rotation to calculate flow over the complete range of off- seat time. Maybe that info is in the EAPro library data already?That certainly makes sense and likely is just some typo in the data set. The lash setting being a tip off as well. You are not going to get lift/degree from anyone I don't think- cam DR it or measure by hand- which I have done time to time and is a PITA but some programs can take that data as a notepad set and make curves from it. ( I have one of those but is lot more work to put stuff in)
I have built the engine but I have not fired it up yet. I'm waiting to install the whole engine/transaxle unit into my chassis before cranking it over. What info would you need for EAPro? I appreciate your offer.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
unless anybody knows where I can find some NOS Leyland 970 rods - :roll: - I didn't think so! :-D
You are not going to get lift/degree from anyone I don't think- Very, very unlikely . . . . . this is considered proprietary information.
cam DR it or measure by hand- which I have done time to time and is a PITA but some programs can take that data as a notepad set and make curves from it. ( I have one of those but is lot more work to put stuff in)
Thanks- your data matches my cam card except Crower says it is a mechanical roller cam, not a hydraulic. I thought the cam profile data needed was lift vs degrees of rotation to calculate flow over the complete range of off- seat time. Maybe that info is in the EAPro library data already?That certainly makes sense and likely is just some typo in the data set. The lash setting being a tip off as well. You are not going to get lift/degree from anyone I don't think- cam DR it or measure by hand- which I have done time to time and is a PITA but some programs can take that data as a notepad set and make curves from it. ( I have one of those but is lot more work to put stuff in)
I have built the engine but I have not fired it up yet. I'm waiting to install the whole engine/transaxle unit into my chassis before cranking it over. What info would you need for EAPro? I appreciate your offer.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
If you want me to run it need: bore, stroke, rod length, type of ring package ( low tension or not) are you using typical bearings or small ones, coatings, CR, head flows ( may have a library of typical heads- what are on it?) valve sizes, type of water pump(electric?), port length and avg diameter for both int and exh, and fan drive (electric, low ratio pulleys etc), chamber design ( wedge, pent roof, hemi etc), what type of intake manifold, carb or FI, flow rating of carb. have the cam, header size- diameter, length, collector dia and length, etc. In other words, everything you know about the build. :)
Alternatively just give me some basics and I'll pull some generic sample and see but the more detail closer will get to your actual.
No trouble sending PM. Go top left and click messages, box opens top left click "new message" box opens to put recipients screen name and topic. But cumbersome. If you want send direct email: wjeyedoc @ Verizon.net (take out the extra spaces)Thanks- your data matches my cam card except Crower says it is a mechanical roller cam, not a hydraulic. I thought the cam profile data needed was lift vs degrees of rotation to calculate flow over the complete range of off- seat time. Maybe that info is in the EAPro library data already?That certainly makes sense and likely is just some typo in the data set. The lash setting being a tip off as well. You are not going to get lift/degree from anyone I don't think- cam DR it or measure by hand- which I have done time to time and is a PITA but some programs can take that data as a notepad set and make curves from it. ( I have one of those but is lot more work to put stuff in)
I have built the engine but I have not fired it up yet. I'm waiting to install the whole engine/transaxle unit into my chassis before cranking it over. What info would you need for EAPro? I appreciate your offer.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
If you want me to run it need: bore, stroke, rod length, type of ring package ( low tension or not) are you using typical bearings or small ones, coatings, CR, head flows ( may have a library of typical heads- what are on it?) valve sizes, type of water pump(electric?), port length and avg diameter for both int and exh, and fan drive (electric, low ratio pulleys etc), chamber design ( wedge, pent roof, hemi etc), what type of intake manifold, carb or FI, flow rating of carb. have the cam, header size- diameter, length, collector dia and length, etc. In other words, everything you know about the build. :)
Alternatively just give me some basics and I'll pull some generic sample and see but the more detail closer will get to your actual.
Jack;
I guess I can't send a PM after all-- your e-mail address is "hidden".
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
End of hijack, Chris.
I want to illustrate this with a couple of screen shots but my computer skills are failing me. Will post each separately. One is curves generated by entering data from a cam card in a program which spits out lift, velocity acceleration and jerk curves. The second is from hand generated data measuring 340+ points at every degree engine rotation reading lift with a digital dial indicator on the lifter. You can see the result, thus Fordboy's comments.
You are not going to get lift/degree from anyone I don't think- Very, very unlikely . . . . . this is considered proprietary information.
cam DR it or measure by hand- which I have done time to time and is a PITA but some programs can take that data as a notepad set and make curves from it. ( I have one of those but is lot more work to put stuff in)
Cam Analyser from Performance Trends can accept hand accumulated data via hand entry into the program for analysis. It can also import data from other cam measuring programs, as well as data in a spreadsheet format. There are several versions with increasing capability. For details see:
http://performancetrends.com/download.htm#ca
Some caveats about cam profiling:
A) More information is always better, hence the PITA nature of hand data accumulation/hand entry. Measurement at intervals of 2 degrees of crank rotation is best, lots of work and data points. By hand, lots of opportunities for errors. Need to work carefully.
2) Compared to measurements taken by high resolution encoders, hand accumulated data accuracy suffers. It is not accurate enough to analyze acceleration and jerk.
d) The accuracy by hand is good enough if you are careful, and you just want to analyze displacement and maybe velocity data. You save yourself $2K over purchasing a complete entry level measurement setup. You should be able to find a shop with a Cam Dr. or a Cam Pro who will test the cam for you for about $125. You should get a written report for this charge, not just a detailed cam card. Expect to pay more to test every lobe and get a detailed analysis.
:cheers:
Fordboy
screen shot 1
and two
I attended a seminar provide by Dema Elgin on engine design several years ago and one of his guest speaker was a gentleman that ground cams for the Joe Gibbs Racing Team. He related that he made two cams that had exactly the same lift, timing etc but one cam had 5 ten thousands of an inch (that's .0005 inches) difference in the flank dimensions. That cam would turn an additional 600 rpm and produced 10 hp more than the other "identical" cam. There is a lot of dynamic "physics" going on when you start turning 9000 rpm+ and looking for that last horse power. My guess is that many cam grinders would have a "challenge" just trying to maintain a .0005 inch tolerance much less be able to actually grind cams to that type of tolerance and then discern the performance difference.
Rex
exactly the reason why I posted these to illustrate your point! :cheers:and two
And this is obviously the hand accumulated data. Reference my original comment.
Sometimes you just need access to the "good" tools.
:cheers:
Fordboy
I want to illustrate this with a couple of screen shots but my computer skills are failing me. Will post each separately. One is curves generated by entering data from a cam card in a program which spits out lift, velocity acceleration and jerk curves. The second is from hand generated data measuring 340+ points at every degree engine rotation reading lift with a digital dial indicator on the lifter. You can see the result, thus Fordboy's comments.
Input data includes EVO,EVC, lift, Open/Close ramp lift ratio (program makes suggestions), Open/Close ramp duration ("major intensity" as I under stand and some grinders will give you this but program makes suggestions as well),lobe dwell duration and is max lift centered on the lobe.I want to illustrate this with a couple of screen shots but my computer skills are failing me. Will post each separately. One is curves generated by entering data from a cam card in a program which spits out lift, velocity acceleration and jerk curves. The second is from hand generated data measuring 340+ points at every degree engine rotation reading lift with a digital dial indicator on the lifter. You can see the result, thus Fordboy's comments.
Jacksoni,
Just out of curiosity, what program generated this graphic output?
:cheers:
Fordboy
Here's a thought.To be honest, I am not sure how this would help but making it even more a PITA rotating the whole shebang 361 every time rather than just 1 doesn't sound too swell. I think my error trying to read every degree rather than 2 or 5 as has been suggested might have made the software go a bit batty as the curves show. Anyway, I did this just to try if the program predicted anything different with the generated curves rather than the measured curves. Has been too long, I don't remember. Got CRS. :|
Of course, using an automated, motorized cam checker will always get you the most reliable reading, because it's virtually infinite in its input-output readings.
But one of the other advantages is that it automatically minimizes slack between the fixture and the measuring plunger.
I'm wondering if making a complete revolution of the cam for each degree of measurement might not smooth out the reading.
There's likely an infinitesimal amount of slack between the cam and the fixture that could be minimized by always coming up on the lobe in the same direction and from an equal distance.
Think torque wrench.
Or think guitar.
On a guitar, you want to tune "up" to the pitch, not take it down. This keeps the attack of the tolerances constant in the tuning keys with respect to your measurement (pitch of the string).
If you approach the lobe measurement with the same idea, you would advance the lobe 361 degrees, take your measurement, advance it another 361 degrees, etc., keeping the attack of the tolerances always on the same relative side of the fixture.
Huge difference? On an acceleration flank, I think maybe so.
Input data includes EVO,EVC, lift, Open/Close ramp lift ratio (program makes suggestions), Open/Close ramp duration ("major intensity" as I under stand and some grinders will give you this but program makes suggestions as well),lobe dwell duration and is max lift centered on the lobe.
The software is Vannik's EngMod4T suite. Lot of development capability and detail and so of course lots of area for GIGO. I have heard some engineers whose opinion I respect say they think is pretty good. Not in the multithousand dollar range.
http://www.vannik.co.za/index.htm Are you familiar with it?
I think part of my problem goes to trying to measure every 1* and the inherent difficulty being accurate in the entire process as Fordboy has pointed out. He mentions going to 5/10000" while I am maybe at .05MM accuracy. Big difference. the program I was using will import electronic files as from a Cam Dr or Cam pro so they should be a lot more representative of reality.
Here's a thought.
Of course, using an automated, motorized cam checker will always get you the most reliable reading, because it's virtually infinite in its input-output readings.
But one of the other advantages is that it automatically minimizes slack between the fixture and the measuring plunger.
I'm wondering if making a complete revolution of the cam for each degree of measurement might not smooth out the reading.
There's likely an infinitesimal amount of slack between the cam and the fixture that could be minimized by always coming up on the lobe in the same direction and from an equal distance.
Think torque wrench.
Or think guitar.
On a guitar, you want to tune "up" to the pitch, not take it down. This keeps the attack of the tolerances constant in the tuning keys with respect to your measurement (pitch of the string).
If you approach the lobe measurement with the same idea, you would advance the lobe 361 degrees, take your measurement, advance it another 361 degrees, etc., keeping the attack of the tolerances always on the same relative side of the fixture.
Huge difference? On an acceleration flank, I think maybe so.
Here is the Altronics YouTube video about using their setup.cute gadget. Expensive degree wheel huh? At least in the video they are assuming a symmetrical lobe- and I think suggested backing up the rotation checking the cam which would screw things up with belt slack stretch/slack etc. However, I assume their directions are more complete. Here is the factory website: http://www.altronicsinc.com/degree-wheel/digicam-digital-engine-degree-wheel-1.html 299.99 plus $30 for each crank insert. They say is nice for in the car checking and I can see that. but you need to pull the damper hub if so, which in my case involves the pump drive, trigger wheel, damper etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cezpD3oxc64
:cheers:
Fordboy
"expensive"? Perhaps "over-priced"; I say that after seeing their set of 6 crank inserts @ $150. Another reason for saying that, is that digital electronic consumer items, in general, are becoming extremely cost-effective. I just bought a laser tachometer (3 - 99,999 RPM) for $20.
Sir Henry Royce (Rolls Royce) said it best... "The quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten".
Ditto on your torque wrenched and everything else. I don't know how to calibrate a wrench other than with a torque wrench dyno (or whatever it is called), but there is a method.
midget,
Inquiring minds want to know who won the Chili Pepper races at the 13th Annual Rockabilly Chili Fundraiser held in Beerhaven yesterday.
I know that the "Red" pepper appeared to win the 12:00 race. What about the protest rumor?
Complete Race report please . . . . . .
Chili cook off winners too please, if known.
:cheers:
LouiesDemiseboy
I'm fairly certain I'm not the first one to bastardize the original.
Jeff Foxworthy once said, "You know you're a redneck when you have more car parts in your trunk than under your hood", but what do you call a British sports car owner who leaves home without 'em?
Stranded.
Here's the "do-it-yourself" kit . . .
http://www.keepcalmandcarryon.com/
47 different chili recipes to choose from this year - I only made it to a dozen.
Now if you are Slim you: Keep calm and carry wood
I love your new avatar, Chris.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Now if you are Slim you: Keep calm and carry wood
Or if you're a Cubs fan --
Keep Calm and Kerry Wood.
Cactus league starts today - so screw the snow, it's SPRING! :cheers:
Stay warm Slim, Spring is "only" 13 days away . . . . . . . :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Okay, Fordboy - back to work on the K - which we are now upgrading to an N for political reasons, which I'll explain over the phone.
The stock Acura rods, by the way, are rev limited @ 7900 in the factory programming for a 1.8 @ 130 hp and a 89 mm stroke. Haven't done the math backwards yet, but I'm thinking properly prepped, they might be strong enough?
Okay, Fordboy - back to work on the K - which we are now upgrading to an N for political reasons, which I'll explain over the phone.
The stock Acura rods, by the way, are rev limited @ 7900 in the factory programming for a 1.8 @ 130 hp and a 89 mm stroke. Haven't done the math backwards yet, but I'm thinking properly prepped, they might be strong enough?
Without looking at them, hard to tell. But, prepped, shot peened, arp bolts, etc, probably OK. I think decent rod bearings are available for the application, but need to check. Fly in the ointment is probably the pin end bore diameter, likely too large for a small pin, reduced skirt piston.
http://arp-bolts.com/kits/ARPkit-detail.php?RecordID=1282
But I'd say: Gird your loins/wallet for a set of Carrillos with 3/8ths SPS or ARP bolts . . . . . matched up with CP pistons using a 5/8ths or 15mm wrist pin . . . . . .
Yeah I know, I'm not writing the checks . . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Why would you want a 2.4 R/S ratio when "everyone" knows that is too high........ :dhorse: :dhorse: :cheers: :cheers:
Envy = 2.43 R/S. The four-cylinder I'm building would need 9" rods to do that! :-o
Why would you want a 2.4 R/S ratio when "everyone" knows that is too high........ :dhorse: :dhorse: :cheers: :cheers:
Obviously we are constrained by other parts and you just have to use what you have to use. I will opine, that if F1 could physically make the rods shorter they would. As it is rod length is required or pistons hit the crank/counterweights or the piston itself would need to be much taller, thereby heavier etc. Although it is clear that there are aspects of engine performance (many but unspecified here) that rod ratio can affect, from a basic horsepower stand point, on a dyno, it is hard to tell any difference at least in peak numbers. A respected builder I know says a "connecting rod" is just that, connects the crank to the piston. Make the piston and ring package what you want and then connect to the crank, rod length be damned. He does not say it makes no difference, but that rod ratio is way down the list of stuff-To quote our respected Fordboy "Hey Mark, what's the ONE thing that really matters when building racing engines? "EVERYTHING." - that you need to be working on, other things are more important. Perhaps Jack Gifford was being factious, I was with my comment about his post.
Anyway, Fordboy hasn't piped up about this topic (recently) so am just poking him with a stick to wake him up. 8-) he may well feel differently.
2) I rate combinations sort of loosely, since it turns out: Everything is a compromise. My labels are: Best, better, poor. Feel free to use my labels or create your own.
Thinkyboy
Not much gets past you, Mark.
I've got to dig up the thrust bearings to get an accurate measure on the current flange depth - it's actually recessed from the plane of the back of the block, unlike the Midget, where it extends past the plane.
With the thrust bearings out, I can tell you it's between .24 and .18 . . .
. . . but I think I can get a measurement a little closer by the end of the week!
As for today, we're looking at a projected temp of 68 degrees, I took a day off work, and I'll be banging on the Pom Rod.
And maybe, as Sparky so eloquently stated, a little bingeneering . . . :cheers:
Well, actually recessed is good. :-) Now we just add hub height to match up to the existing trans/etc.
The other way around would need a thick spacer plate to get things to fit up, and I'm already concerned about the space available . . . . .
Crank(y) thoughts . . . . . .Somewhere page or two back Chris mentioned a 56mm stroke to give 989 leaving room for a 0.5 ( I presume mm so about .020) over bore and staying under the 1015cc limit. I haven't done the math but I think a stroke that gives 998 or 999 might not allow a similar, assuming standard, overbore. Have to watch availability of rings when you get into odd bore sizes. Don't ask how I know that...... :oops: :oops:
midget,
Some thoughts, re: the big ticket, longest delivery item on the build list.
1) Hub dimension modified to suit BMC trans/flywheel and necessary adaptor plate thickness.
2) Retain standard pilot bushing layout to suit existing input shaft.
3) De-stroked for 998/999cc's displacement.
4) Rod journal diameter sized for a readily available high quality rod bearing, say Honda . . . .
5) Crank drilled for "low pressure" oiling strategy.
6) Crank oiling "prioritized" for: Thrust oiling from 1 main journal. Remaining main journals each feed the adjacent rod bearing as per #5.
Anything I missed?
:cheers:
Fordboy
Crank(y) thoughts . . . . . .Somewhere page or two back Chris mentioned a 56mm stroke to give 989 leaving room for a 0.5 ( I presume mm so about .020) over bore and staying under the 1015cc limit. I haven't done the math but I think a stroke that gives 998 or 999 might not allow a similar, assuming standard, overbore. Have to watch availability of rings when you get into odd bore sizes. Don't ask how I know that...... :oops: :oops:
midget,
Some thoughts, re: the big ticket, longest delivery item on the build list.
1) Hub dimension modified to suit BMC trans/flywheel and necessary adaptor plate thickness.
2) Retain standard pilot bushing layout to suit existing input shaft.
3) De-stroked for 998/999cc's displacement.
4) Rod journal diameter sized for a readily available high quality rod bearing, say Honda . . . .
5) Crank drilled for "low pressure" oiling strategy.
6) Crank oiling "prioritized" for: Thrust oiling from 1 main journal. Remaining main journals each feed the adjacent rod bearing as per #5.
Anything I missed?
:cheers:
Fordboy
True, Jack. I'm looking at ring packs as I make these decisions.
Mark may not have caught that adjustment, but I'm still not sure what we'll be doing with the bores at the moment.
Thanks for keeping an eye on us! :cheers:
I thought the limit was 1008cc's. Was I incorrect?
More importantly, how hard to you want me to push it against the limit?
Fordboy
P.S. Say Hi! to the crowd at McBob's tonight. At least you'll be able to crawl the 6 blocks to home . . . . . :wink:
F/B
Midget n EngineTweekerBoy, if you want to deck the block, you could talk to Gates about belt availability. I was recently introduced to a belt drive engineer at Gates. I could send you some contact info if you want to help in picking your direction.
I am back in Washington as I write this, but will be returning to New Zealand next week, as my Mum passed away the night I got on the plane to come back. The last two weeks have not been good. I`m having a hard time with this. Just coping the best I can...... :cry:
midget,Good thing you are not trying for 2015 :)
I did not ask about the length of time to delivery . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
midget,Good thing you are not trying for 2015 :)
I did not ask about the length of time to delivery . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
I hear you. My pistons were to be 2 weeks, took 6. Cams are now at 3.5 months and still going strong...... :-P
Mr Fordboy, while you are hanging about here, I know you have more experience with pushrod type engines than DOHC stuff with direct tappets or followers but do you have thoughts about breaking in new cams in this setting (direct tappets in this case),. I know regular flat tappet cams take a lot of babying in many situations to avoid wiping the lobes but with DOHC direct, the tappets don't rotate, are flat, but the actual load is much less. Less spring pressure, no rocker arm to multiply load on the lifter etc. Other than assembly lube in general would you do anything special lube/oil wise as is often suggested with pushrod flat tappets? Though way down the road for you and Midget, it does apply..... :cheers:
Okay, Fordboy - back to work on the K - which we are now upgrading to an N for political reasons, which I'll explain over the phone.
Specs are looking like this -
56 mm stroke gets us 989 cc, and if we need to overbore by .5, we're at 1003, which is still under the 1015 class limit.
The Honda Acura rods are the best bet as far as size is concerned - 137 mm in a 201 deck height, provided we can get by with a 35mm pin height. Stock crown height is about 20 on a Rover 1.4 slipper piston. It's about 36 on an A series non-slipper slug.
This puts us at a 2.43 R/S ratio.
The stock Acura rods, by the way, are rev limited @ 7900 in the factory programming for a 1.8 @ 130 hp and a 89 mm stroke. Haven't done the math backwards yet, but I'm thinking properly prepped, they might be strong enough?
Sounds like some sort of a dog show..... :roll:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
midget,
I'm going to start a Comprehensive Engine Build Plan (Tm & copyright) file for the Rover.
It will be 3/4 pages of planning and choices specific to this engine style for Bonneville/LSR in the I/GT class.
Better to have it all laid out on paper first.
Let me know about any decisions you have already made.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Sounds like some sort of a dog show..... :roll:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
It has to be, the pony is dead!
Mike
Mark, I seem to recall that in my conversation with ARP, there was a little wiggle room on deck height and head thickness. Maybe a haircut on the block might help.
I'll measure up the belt, do a tooth count and see if Gates has any options on a -2 and -4.
I'd prefer not to, but if we're starting with a clean sheet of paper, let's look at all options. Of course.
The one decision I've made is that I intend to make this work. Yes. But work well . . . .
Where I am going with this is that any compression ratio raising will need to be done with a "dome" on the piston.
:cheers:
Fordboy
MM, be careful with welding up the head with any serious amount of weld. There was a time. many years ago when one of the four cylinder Fords had an issue with cracking between the valves. A friend of mine welded up a whole bunch of them after experimenting with the first couple. It required a pretty serious support clamp assembly to keep the head straight enough for remachining and everything needed to be machined. This was a non race application, strictly warrantee.
Pete
MM, be careful with welding up the head with any serious amount of weld. There was a time. many years ago when one of the four cylinder Fords had an issue with cracking between the valves. A friend of mine welded up a whole bunch of them after experimenting with the first couple. It required a pretty serious support clamp assembly to keep the head straight enough for remachining and everything needed to be machined. This was a non race application, strictly warrantee.
Pete
Pom Rod Dash update -
Simple, clean, and absolutely rock-and-roll. Covered with Fender amplifier tolex/vinyl.
Telecaster chrome switchplate. Left slider is for the lights, 3 position Stratocaster switch, off, driving lights and headlights. The knob in the center is actually a push button with a Telecaster knob fitted to it for the horn, the knob to the far right is a 2 position rotary switch for the wipers.
The Treble/Rhythm switch is from a Les Paul - operates the high and low beams.
Seems like it should have a Banjo steering wheel, oh wait you said rock and roll.
Never mind. :roll:
The end of the world is near.
The end of the world is near.
Fordboy, I didn't know you were a student of eschatological studies.
Not a hijack, if you will, but a request for information on the Bloodhound. I got an email about the BH today and want to post it for all -- but I don't remember if we've got a separate topic set up for that car. I searched for Bloodhound and absolute lsr -- and nope. So would one of youse (or more than one) let me know if and where there's stuff on the project? Thanks.
Over to you, Chris
midget,
Whilst perusing the DLRA site for news, I just happened to notice that I/GT is an open record at Lake Gairdner . . . . . .
Could this be a "bucket list" item?
Transport over on a raft, "Kon-Tiki" style?
:cheers:
F/B
Don't forget El Mirage. :wink: Nothing wrong with a little "One-upsmanship". :-D Wayno
... That piston would be very heavy though, compromising the plan to use a narrow, low tension ring package...These two statements surprise me. I don't see piston weight limiting narrowness of rings. My hemi pistons are monstrously heavy but Diamond recommended 1.2mm top rings and 1.5mm 2nd rings; if it weren't to be supercharged, they would have gone with 1.0mm top rings.
Rod/stroke ratio is going to be very high... Piston dwell at and around TDC, is going to create piston to valve clearance issues...
... That piston would be very heavy though, compromising the plan to use a narrow, low tension ring package...These two statements surprise me. I don't see piston weight limiting narrowness of rings. My hemi pistons are monstrously heavy but Diamond recommended 1.2mm top rings and 1.5mm 2nd rings; if it weren't to be supercharged, they would have gone with 1.0mm top rings.
Rod/stroke ratio is going to be very high... Piston dwell at and around TDC, is going to create piston to valve clearance issues...
For 'reasonable & possible' changes to R/S ratio (for instance, +/- 0.5" on rod length), piston-to-valve clearance differences @ about 12 degrees from TDC (where clearance is usually minimal) is negligible. Unless I screwed up the "geometry exercise", it would be on the order of a thousandth or two. Please show the math that supports your "dwell" concern.
I don't see piston weight limiting narrowness of rings. My hemi pistons are monstrously heavy but Diamond recommended
For 'reasonable & possible' changes to R/S ratio (for instance, +/- 0.5" on rod length), piston-to-valve clearance differences @ about 12 degrees from TDC (where clearance is usually minimal) is negligible. Unless I screwed up the "geometry exercise", it would be on the order of a thousandth or two. Please show the math that supports your "dwell" concern.
Indeed the position of 10-12* before and after TDC are often quoted as the spot of closest P-V approach ( and I have seen a good engine building book suggest checking at 10*-only-) you have to check. My engine with high R/S ratio, big valve, high lift cam had closest P-V at 20 degrees. I checked at every 5 until I was sure where that occurred. If you rely on one "generally accepted" spot, I humbly suggest Mr Piston and Mr Valve may become closely acquainted. :cheers: :cry:
When considering custom pistons and rods, I would suggest checking with Wossner USA. John Noonan is very LSR racer friendly guy since he is one. :-D
These days you can specify a crown thickness so pistons don't have to be lightened after production. CnC is a wonderful thing
The worm can is now open :cheers:
When considering custom pistons and rods, I would suggest checking with Wossner USA. John Noonan is very LSR racer friendly guy since he is one. :-D
These days you can specify a crown thickness so pistons don't have to be lightened after production. CnC is a wonderful thing
The worm can is now open :cheers:
Indeed the position of 10-12* before and after TDC are often quoted as the spot of closest P-V approach ( and I have seen a good engine building book suggest checking at 10*-only-) you have to check. My engine with high R/S ratio, big valve, high lift cam had closest P-V at 20 degrees. I checked at every 5 until I was sure where that occurred. If you rely on one "generally accepted" spot, I humbly suggest Mr Piston and Mr Valve may become closely acquainted. :cheers: :cry:
If the kiss marks aren't too deep it's ok :-o
... The Diamonds are cheap though...$1,732 for four is "cheap"?
... we're looking for RPM considerably higher than what Jack is looking at...You talking to me?
... we're looking for RPM considerably higher than what Jack is looking at...You talking to me?
I'm building it to make good power up to 10,000 RPM. That's not an arbitrary number. I competed with the V8 hemi Pontiac for many seasons to 9,000 RPM under load. So I'm just "tweaking" an engine design that I'm very experienced with. The DOHC setup will eliminate the heavy pushrod/rocker-arm arrangement of the V8, allowing more freedom of lobe selection, thus an extra 1,000 RPM is quite reasonable. How much "considerably higher" will you be running your engine?
Agree 100%- with one exception-I think it is better to measure these and related things with the springs you are running. With a DOHC direct tappet not so much perhaps but with a pushrod motor, there can be quite a bit of deflection in the valve train and for performance or clearance critical measurements, a light checking spring might fool you. This makes things considerably more difficult particularly when dealing with springs with 400lbs on the seat... :-o. My combination might have liked a bit more cam advance than I ran but was limited by P-V clearance even with deep piston pockets (= CR compromise) and led me to range of .042-45" P-V and .032"deck clearance trying to get the performance. Pushing my luck there for sure.....
Indeed the position of 10-12* before and after TDC are often quoted as the spot of closest P-V approach ( and I have seen a good engine building book suggest checking at 10*-only-) you have to check. My engine with high R/S ratio, big valve, high lift cam had closest P-V at 20 degrees. I checked at every 5 until I was sure where that occurred. If you rely on one "generally accepted" spot, I humbly suggest Mr Piston and Mr Valve may become closely acquainted. :cheers: :cry:
I use a dial indicator on the head, aligned with the spring retainer, with adequate travel to measure resulting V/P clearance. I install a "light" spring on the valve.
For intake, I start checking at 5 degrees ATDC, then 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, etc; until the V/P begins to open up. On cams with consistent flank motion, the clearance opens up because the piston accelerates away from TDC . . . . . hence my concerns about piston "dwell" . . . . .
For exhaust, I start checking @ 20 degrees BTDC, then 18, 16, 14, etc; again until the V/P opens up.
If you are expecting to have V/P clearances on the order of .100"/.120", by all means use clay or whatever.
On tiny engines I run considerably less clearance than that.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Agree 100%- with one exception-I think it is better to measure these and related things with the springs you are running. With a DOHC direct tappet not so much perhaps but with a pushrod motor, there can be quite a bit of deflection in the valve train and for performance or clearance critical measurements, a light checking spring might fool you. This makes things considerably more difficult particularly when dealing with springs with 400lbs on the seat... :-o. My combination might have liked a bit more cam advance than I ran but was limited by P-V clearance even with deep piston pockets (= CR compromise) and led me to range of .042-45" P-V and .032"deck clearance trying to get the performance. Pushing my luck there for sure.....
Indeed the position of 10-12* before and after TDC are often quoted as the spot of closest P-V approach ( and I have seen a good engine building book suggest checking at 10*-only-) you have to check. My engine with high R/S ratio, big valve, high lift cam had closest P-V at 20 degrees. I checked at every 5 until I was sure where that occurred. If you rely on one "generally accepted" spot, I humbly suggest Mr Piston and Mr Valve may become closely acquainted. :cheers: :cry:
I use a dial indicator on the head, aligned with the spring retainer, with adequate travel to measure resulting V/P clearance. I install a "light" spring on the valve.
For intake, I start checking at 5 degrees ATDC, then 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, etc; until the V/P begins to open up. On cams with consistent flank motion, the clearance opens up because the piston accelerates away from TDC . . . . . hence my concerns about piston "dwell" . . . . .
For exhaust, I start checking @ 20 degrees BTDC, then 18, 16, 14, etc; again until the V/P opens up.
If you are expecting to have V/P clearances on the order of .100"/.120", by all means use clay or whatever.
On tiny engines I run considerably less clearance than that.
:cheers:
Fordboy
I will point out I hesitate a lot to disagree with FB about anything.... :roll: :cheers:
I will point out I hesitate a lot to disagree with FB about anything.... :roll: :cheers:
Chris, most folks don't know that the fore and aft perpetual saffoam kept these products from setting any records! :-o :? :-D
Huh?
Not today, anyway . . . :wink:
MM and FB, though you have moved on to the K motor, you might be interested in this speedtalk thread: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43079#p547223
I understand exactly your point. On the internet, a little bit of experience goes a long way. :roll: I remember one thread where someone posted a dyno sheet from an inertial dyno which showed acceleration rates at each rpm step. It clearly indicated that the engine acceleration peak was at peak torque. This led to a rather rancorous argument that went on for 70+ pages about where an engine with car attached accelerated at peak and how horsepower fit in and which was better torque or horsepower and how fast a car went down a track. Physics be damned. "Don't argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." It seemed few could look at the dyno sheet and see the answer to the original question. :cheers: :cheers: I will continue with my mish mash of misfit parts and try to make some power....... :-D :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:MM and FB, though you have moved on to the K motor, you might be interested in this speedtalk thread: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43079#p547223
Jack,
Sorry for the rant, it's not directed at you.
Interesting thread. Just one word of caution however. Some of the critics on SpeedTalk, and other forums, have NEVER built an 'A' series engine themselves. Or any 'A' series engine for any competition, regardless of results. "Speculating", online, about your pet ideas for an engine type, is not the same as actually building something that then goes out and performs . . . . . . while publishing all of it online, honestly, for the benefit of anyone who chooses to use the information. As a matter of note, some of these "pet ideas" from this thread, will not work on BMC's, because the room required to do so does not exist. A "packaging limitation" unresearched by the person posting the "pet idea".
However, I do understand the comments about "new" technology Vs "old" methods/technology. I can only add this thought:
Whether you use "new" or "old" ideas and/or technology to build your "jewel", I submit for your judgment that what is important, is how well these selected bits work in concert with each other . . . . . . because . . . . . . . It's complicated. Every bit needs to perform "harmoniously" with every other bit, in what is a complex mechanical system.
Unless you get to design an engine from a clean sheet of paper, your racing engine is probably going to be a hybrid of some current technology with some insightful "new" refinements. This is typically how it works, it is a practical solution, because you are constrained by the original design, the original "packaging limitations". Engine performance evolution has always gone forward a bit at a time by concentrating effort on making some "new" idea workable, thereby reaping the benefit(s). Clean sheet of paper designs typically include the "best" ideas of all current technologies, thoughtfully integrated into a well designed "package". Think 1968 Cosworth DFV, current Chevy RO7 or Ford FR9, F1 hybrids, etc, . . . . . . you get the idea.
Often the best engines turn out to be those "properly built" with close attention to all the important "little details".
JMO
Fordboy
I understand exactly your point. On the internet, a little bit of experience goes a long way. :roll: I remember one thread where someone posted a dyno sheet from an inertial dyno which showed acceleration rates at each rpm step. It clearly indicated that the engine acceleration peak was at peak torque.
Duh!!
This led to a rather rancorous argument that went on for 70+ pages about where an engine with car attached accelerated at peak and how horsepower fit in and which was better torque or horsepower and how fast a car went down a track.
Why is it that idiots do not understand that bhp & tq are linked?
Physics be damned. "Don't argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." It seemed few could look at the dyno sheet and see the answer to the original question. :cheers: :cheers: I will continue with my mish mash of misfit parts and try to make some power....... :-D :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Mark, my condolences to you, Karen and the family. A remarkable, unsung hero of WWII, your mother-in-law.
Mmmmmmmmm Speckles. :cheers: Wayno
Under hood has relays and fuses for ignition, starter, high beam, low beam, fuel pump and radiator fan. The inside of the firewall are turn signal relays from Painless Wiring - which lives up to their name in everything except price.
Digging through the scrap heap, I came across two pretty cool electronics chassis, both of which I've repurposed, one as a cover for the underhood electronics . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0296_zpsz6ofwad5.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0296_zpsz6ofwad5.jpg.html)
Under hood has relays and fuses for ignition, starter, high beam, low beam, fuel pump and radiator fan. The inside of the firewall are turn signal relays from Painless Wiring - which lives up to their name in everything except price.
Digging through the scrap heap, I came across two pretty cool electronics chassis, both of which I've repurposed, one as a cover for the underhood electronics . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0296_zpsz6ofwad5.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0296_zpsz6ofwad5.jpg.html)
You guys have Tupperware over there yeah?...........
Just sayin :roll: :wink:
Putting the heads back on, I got the left bank on with no concerns, but as I approached the 55 lb spec on the 2 bolt on the right bank, it went soft. So now I’ve got to do some sort of insert to finish the project.
Meah . . . better on this than on the K.
Did I mention I'm getting tired of developing problem solving skills?
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN03051_zpsccxntrog.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN03051_zpsccxntrog.jpg.html)
Glad you are not racing it. Perfect reason for a blower/turbo . . . . . .
Although . . . . . it DOES have 5 head bolts per cylinder Vs 3 . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Smart move Chris. I was hoping you would pull the heads. It has been 35 years! Can't tell you how good it feels to see a friend getting it on the road.
Terry
Actually the little trespassers were not squirrels but mice. So I don't have to worry about the soffits . The electrician wiring the new house gave me a tip for dealing with the mice.
Actually the little trespassers were not squirrels but mice. So I don't have to worry about the soffits . The electrician wiring the new house gave me a tip for dealing with the mice.
Organic, yes, but how do you maintain a good ground on a Harley? :roll:
Organic, yes, but how do you maintain a good ground on a Harley? :roll:Chris it wasn't running so the ground was good enough for rodent eradication! :-D
Organic, yes, but how do you maintain a good ground on a Harley? :roll:
British Nascar
Hope the France family is getting their cut from this Euro-trash . . . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_zK7YyXfFo
:cheers:
Fordboy
British Nascar
Hope the France family is getting their cut from this Euro-trash . . . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_zK7YyXfFo
:cheers:
Fordboy
Should we start a thread on the CG/CP of minis? :? :?
Or just heist this one! :evil:
All I got from it is that it takes only a little touch of yellow paint to cause handling problems.
So many leaks and so little time ................... :|
Great, Mark.
My schedule is getting tight - I'm planning on stopping by your place tomorrow after work, if that's okay. Wednesday night?
Also, I need to grab your Helicoil kit - 7/16 14, if you have it. I'll double check and dig it out for you.
So the plan Friday is to head up to Plymouth, Michigan and drop by Rody machining and chat with Greg. I talked to him on the phone today - he's good with the stop-n-drop.
He's the guy who built my last crank, and I'll want him to build the short-stroke for the twin cam. He hasn't seen a modern Rover/MG crank before, and as we're looking to mount up the new engine to the Spridget transmission, we'll be looking to create a flange (nah, it's going to be a 1/2" thick adaptor plate) to mate up to the MG flywheel, and likely set it up for Honda rod bearings.
I'm also dropping off a couple of MGB cranks for one of Fordboy's customers, so Greg can perform his wizardry on them.
So this is the first serious financial commitment to this phase of the project since acquiring the engine, and if I want to run in 2016, (I do) I need to get cracking.
After I'm done at Greg's, it's off to Wilmington for the weekend to meet up with Gregg (2 'g's). I've been meaning to attend a meet at Wilmington since they opened, and this should be a big one.
Weather report looks dynamite - low chance of that stuff we don't talk about, and highs in the high 60's, low 70's.
Also, I got a call from my former home town paper, the Cedar Rapids Gazette today. I did about an hour interview, and I suggested he call Tom Donney up in Fort Dodge, Iowa to fill out the article on small bore production stuff on the salt. I'll let you know when it posts up.
I also talked to Tom today, he's bringing Bertil Sollenskog's SAAB to Wilmington. Gerald Davenport's bringing the Crosley out again, and I see Burton Brown's entered the Z car, so I'll have my fill of small bore, short wheelbase production based cars to last me until August.
157 entries - It's going to be busy.
I'll post up some pics on the "official" thread, when that gets set up.
I'm actually thinking the best situation will be to install this puppy vertically, more room to fabricate headers and keep clear of the steering shaft. The only caveat is whether straight up impacts inlet manifold/injector/air cleaner space negatively.
I'm actually thinking the best situation will be to install this puppy vertically, more room to fabricate headers and keep clear of the steering shaft. The only caveat is whether straight up impacts inlet manifold/injector/air cleaner space negatively.
The other point of impact might be the bonnet. :roll:
That's just geometry . . . . . . :roll:
:dhorse:
PJ:
"Balls, said the Queen. If I had 'em I'd be King!"
Having said that I find that upon close inspection the dead horse is being clubbed on the outside of the left rear hip. No family items are being threatened. And anyway, the horse is/was a gelding -- nothing much remains to be clubbed.
If you put the engine in straight up and use a stock pan there won't be any question as to which side the oil should be scavanged from! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
Well, yeah, I see -- but still, you whine ever so well. :evil:
Midget/Fordboy:
Ref. Reply #4988
Some of the following may be the result of misinterpretation, but anyway..
1] “Heat treat” to what condition and when in the process? Shotpeened or rolled and undercut fillets? Presume the nitriding is only on the journals, not fillets. (Who wants brittle stress concentrations?) Counterweights per eventually selected reciprocating part weights?
4] What is the “low pressure oiling strategy”, just the flow pattern? Presume that “grooving the mains” a la Subaru refers to grooving the main bearings, not the journals.
x] Looking at previous photos of the girdle (page 302), it appears that the stock oil enters the mains about 120 degrees ATDC, which makes sense since at that location, the clearance between the bearing shell and the journal would be closing up, with oil immediately available going into the load carrying portion of the bearing. Also note that the stock bottom bearing shells are NOT grooved. This also makes sense, since a groove would significantly reduce the load capacity of the bearing. A fully grooved bearing would be bad news for two reasons--one, less area to support the load and two, the groove provides a location for the oil that is in the close clearances between the journal and the bearing to leak out and further reduce the clearance and capacity.
The upper halves appear to be grooved, which is probably OK due to lower loading requirements and facilitates collecting oil for feeding to the rods.
I would think long and hard before grooving the lower bearings.
PJ:That's pretty good, Slim. But, that ain't the way I hear'd it.
"Balls, said the Queen. If I had 'em I'd be King!"
Having said that I find that upon close inspection the dead horse is being clubbed on the outside of the left rear hip. No family items are being threatened. And anyway, the horse is/was a gelding -- nothing much remains to be clubbed.
midget,What is the stock rod pin diameter? I was rooting around looking and ran across someone selling a crank and it had 48mm=1.8897"="Honda" size. If you want smaller there is the "IRL" ( and Nascar) 1.850".
Well, just like living in cheddarland, there is good news and some bad news. I'll start with the good news . . . . .
After some research I have confirmed that the 1.4L Rover K and the 1.8L Rover K use the same main bearings. So, quality race bearings are available for the mains. :-D
Rod bearings are different between the 2 engine types however. So the search goes on for a race quality rod bearing . . . . . :cry:
:cheers:
Fordboy
midget,What is the stock rod pin diameter? I was rooting around looking and ran across someone selling a crank and it had 48mm=1.8897"="Honda" size. If you want smaller there is the "IRL" ( and Nascar) 1.850".
Well, just like living in cheddarland, there is good news and some bad news. I'll start with the good news . . . . .
After some research I have confirmed that the 1.4L Rover K and the 1.8L Rover K use the same main bearings. So, quality race bearings are available for the mains. :-D
Rod bearings are different between the 2 engine types however. So the search goes on for a race quality rod bearing . . . . . :cry:
:cheers:
Fordboy
This project started in 2008 if you can believe we wasted that much time on this poor bastard. :evil:
But now you are destroking it a fair amount so there should be pretty good overlap, helping stiffness n'est-ce pas? So you can go the larger route, more stiffness etc with stock 1.8 bearings, or start cutting down to IRL/Nascar sizes or less depending on availability and perhaps more important, a rod with journal size and length that fits without being a totally custom (presumably more expensive) piece.midget,What is the stock rod pin diameter? I was rooting around looking and ran across someone selling a crank and it had 48mm=1.8897"="Honda" size. If you want smaller there is the "IRL" ( and Nascar) 1.850".
Well, just like living in cheddarland, there is good news and some bad news. I'll start with the good news . . . . .
After some research I have confirmed that the 1.4L Rover K and the 1.8L Rover K use the same main bearings. So, quality race bearings are available for the mains. :-D
Rod bearings are different between the 2 engine types however. So the search goes on for a race quality rod bearing . . . . . :cry:
:cheers:
Fordboy
1.4L Stock rod journal diameter: 1.6930" (43mm)
1.8L Stock rod journal diameter: 1.8897" (48mm)
Both Stock main journal diameter: 1.8897" (48mm)
Big rod journal on the 1.8L for crank stiffness? ?
The 1.4L journal diameters seem about right for a 10,000 rpm motorcycle engine . . . . . :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
re: mains grooving- an awful lot of larger performance engines are served very well by 3/4 groove main bearings. Any off-the-shelf 3/4 groove for your miniature mains?
But now you are destroking it a fair amount so there should be pretty good overlap, helping stiffness n'est-ce pas? So you can go the larger route, more stiffness etc with stock 1.8 bearings, or start cutting down to IRL/Nascar sizes or less depending on availability and perhaps more important, a rod with journal size and length that fits without being a totally custom (presumably more expensive) piece.
Deck Height Measurement
midget,
OK, here are the actual measurements. The nominal listed deck height dimension you supplied was 201mm.
Main housing bore diameter = 2.031" (avg. spec.)
Main housing bore / 2 = 1.0155"
Front of block measurement: 7.459" (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155" = 7.9435" (201.76mm)
Rear of block measurement: 7.456" (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155" = 7.9405" (201.69mm)
So for design and machining purposes finished deck height is going to be 201.50mm (7.933").
This allows a slight amount to be surfaced off the block to "square" it up, unless the block needs to be align honed. If that is the case we may need to reduce that deck height dimension by a small amount, say an additional .005"/.010" (.127mm/.254mm)
This is about the point where dimensions can start to be "fixed" and the "build geometry" locked in, so parts can start to be ordered. Uhh oh!! :roll:
Oboy!! Oboy!! Oboy!!
:cheers:
Fordboy
As a stocker, it sounds like a real reliable piece of shitt.
I always wish you two the best. You may need more than ever for this stack of pancakes.
Stan, I know you want to keep that grumpy face for the rest of the world, but we all know you're actually a sweetheart.
As a stocker, it sounds like a real reliable piece of shitt.
I always wish you two the best. You may need more than ever for this stack of pancakes.
Stan, I know you want to keep that grumpy face for the rest of the world, but we all know you're actually a sweetheart.
Here's the deal on the K.
When Nanjing took over the assets of MG, they immediately went to work on the K series engine. There was enough "right' about it that they didn't deem a "clean sheet" strategy necessary to correct the problems.
Nanjing gave the engineers at MG in Longbridge a budget - something they rarely saw out of Rover - and they made changes to the oil rail and the head gasket, and while they were at it, they set it up for a knock sensor to meet European emissions standards, and rechristened it the "N" series.
All critical replacement parts reengineered by MG will fit the K.
How reliable are they in racing applications?
Last year, MG took the British Touring Car Championship manufacturers championship, beating Honda, Vauxhall, BMW, Ford, Audi and Mercedes.
If I learned nothing else working on the A-Series, it was that careful consideration of each and every component - from beginning to end - is key to making a combination work well and work reliably. I owe Mark a lot for guiding me down that path, and the lessons weren't wasted on me. I'm going into this build wiser and more patiently than I did with the A.
And we're moving forward.
Friday, I stopped in Plymouth, Michigan, and dropped off the K crank for Greg Rody to use as a mock-up for the 1 liter.
He ordered the steel yesterday.
We're reloading.
Fordboy -
Next time you're out in the garage, could you take an overall thickness measurement of the head? I'm trying to hunt down the spec for that.
Thanks for your industrious labor on this!
Chris
Found it - 118.75 mm minimum head height.
I'm uncertain if the head has been milled before, although one would presume so based on the measurements. And it appears it requires a skim to "flatten it out" again.
Are you certain about the 118.75mm?
:cheers:
Fordboy
"Block housing bore dimensions: 2.0307" - 2.0315"
Does Mel have a mandrel for this diameter?"
Why yes, he does!
Probably want to check this first, before doing it, but uhhh, no crank to spin . . . . . . :cry: No sense in paying for machine work that is
Probably want to check this first, before doing it, but uhhh, no crank to spin . . . . . . :cry: No sense in paying for machine work that is
Okay, that raises a question.
Should I be looking to acquire the new oil rail and ARP studs first, or will there be sufficient clamp with the old long-bolts and ladder to perform the operation?
And I expect the answer to be the one that requires the earlier cash outlay . . .
A crude calculation, not taking into account the gap above the ring to the deck - and quite honestly, not knowing if the advertised CR includes that, either - and assuming the top of the piston not including the bump is flush with the deck, the intrusion of the Wossner piston to create the 12.5 CR is about 6 cc.
The Wossner piece provides an "advertised" CR of 12.5:1 with a 349 cc volume per cylinder.
A crude calculation, not taking into account the gap above the ring to the deck - and quite honestly, not knowing if the advertised CR includes that, either - and assuming the top of the piston not including the bump is flush with the deck, the intrusion of the Wossner piston to create the 12.5 CR is about 6 cc.
With this piston face, it looks like we'll need to find another 8 cc to make 13.5 work with a 1 liter - all else being equal.
Should I be looking to acquire the new oil rail and ARP studs first, or will there be sufficient clamp with the old long-bolts and ladder to perform the operation?
And I expect the answer to be the one that requires the earlier cash outlay . . .
Uhhhmm,
I'm writing this off to Keith Richards like confusion, induced by rock band practice . . . . . . . . :roll:
Keep practicing that riff from "Satisfaction" until you can play it while even in a "zen-like" trance, the answer will come to you.
I recently worked on BJ Burkdoll's truck, we used my 1 liter with his head because the later model 1000 TB spacing was different and we did not want to rebuild the plenum to fit the older style head. The newer TBs come in pairs and are larger than the older 1 liter and Busa TB specs I sent you back in Oct. It is that larger less restriction TB that gave the newer engine more HP. They also had 2 injectors per TB, upper and lower, smaller flow than the singles, but 2 of them so more control down low with more available fuel on top for his blown application.
:cheers:
midget,
Inlet port centerline spacing between ports: 88mm - 3.464" for each pair.
Ie:
1-2 88mm
1-3 176mm, 2-3 88mm
1-4 264mm, 3-4 88mm
I'm thinking the centerline spacing on a bike engine would be more compressed, narrower. Is that correct? Can't imagine the spacing would be the same as a Rover . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Yep the old ones were even at 80mm the newer ones were 80 between the center 2 and narrower between the outside pairs. :|
I see a custom manifold in your future, you could make the newer style look like webers.
:cheers:
... a heat resistant plastic unit...But would it hold up when you throw in some NITRO? :evil:
... a heat resistant plastic unit...But would it hold up when you throw in some NITRO? :evil:
I've got a call into Wayno on the intake.
I did some sand casting of aluminum in high school, and I'm thinking I can still make a mold. There's a small specialty foundry on S 2nd street that does some one-off things for the Harley guys.
Fabbing up a welded piece is an option.
In fact, a heat resistant plastic unit might be an option as well.
I've got a call into Wayno on the intake.
I did some sand casting of aluminum in high school, and I'm thinking I can still make a mold. There's a small specialty foundry on S 2nd street that does some one-off things for the Harley guys.
Fabbing up a welded piece is an option.
In fact, a heat resistant plastic unit might be an option as well.
I've got a call into Wayno on the intake.
I did some sand casting of aluminum in high school, and I'm thinking I can still make a mold. There's a small specialty foundry on S 2nd street that does some one-off things for the Harley guys.
Fabbing up a welded piece is an option.
In fact, a heat resistant plastic unit might be an option as well.
midget,
Copied you in on an inquiry to Jenvey Dynamics. Since most of their stuff is for larger displacement K16 engines, I'm not optimistic that they have anything suitable for a 1.0L engine. We will see what they reply.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Midget/Fordboy,
Just to satisfy my curiosity I finally assembled some information and comparisons of the through-bolt loadings and stresses. This is on the attached pdf, along with a copy of the ARP stud drawing, in case you don’t already have it.
From the results, it seems there are some conclusions to be drawn.
The 90 x 90 degree make-up rotation spec is most likely bogus.
The Rover upgrade to 10.9 material and 180 x 135 degree rotation makes sense, since that puts it right in the region of the yield strength of the material--not that some yielding is unacceptable. Clearly, the previous 9.8 spec material probably was, as is roundly noted in various places, loaded into its yield range.
The made-up bolt load appears to be plenty to contain the gas pressures--didn’t bother to estimate bottom end loading.
The ARP 50 lb-ft torque puts it right in alignment with the other schemes as far as generated load. Plus, the higher strength of the stud material can probably accommodate the thermal loading while still staying under its yield point. This would be a good thing in that it would retain most of its preload and springiness. Some preload may be lost due to gasket compression, but at least not more from the bolting.
You really do shout a lot
G
You really do shout a lot
G
Midget/Fordboy,
FYI, while I was reading up on the K, came across some discussion that you probably already are aware of, but in case not--
Mention was made that when changing head gaskets, and perhaps as the result of head/block skimming, it was possible that the through-bolts in a particular location, I think the front or second set, could possibly bottom out on the oil pan, thereby producing erroneous or insufficient clamp loads.
Given the through-tapped oil rail and ARP studs (non-headed), this sort of thing might be a consideration to keep in mind. With the generous threaded length of the bottom end, the stud could easily run out the bottom of the oil rail if it were turned until torqued. Which brings up the question of how to install the studs and keep them where you left them while torqueing/turning the nuts. Studs don’t necessarily need to be “bottomed”, but if not, further rotation while running down the nuts should be monitored (if, indeed, this pan interference is a genuine issue). Or, maybe the pan could be “clearanced”.
Tangentally, given the amount of clamp load available, a bit of non-flatness in the head may not require fixing. Although I gather you may do some milling anyway in the quest for compression.
Did you ever get any feedback from the UK K-racers or find out who built the Touring Series engines?
midget,
Assembled the block, girdle and oil pan. Dropped off the assembly with Mike @ Deerfield for the reverse engineering of the rear mounting plate/adaptor.
Offered up a Mini flywheel (smaller diameter than a Midget f/w) and a gear reduction starter assembly . . . . . Piece of cake. Probably won't have to carve the block at all with some clever mounting and orientation of the starter/solenoid.
I love it when a plan comes together!
:cheers:
HannibalSmithboy
Those of us with older eyes like it when you enunciate clearly and don't mumble in your text. :-D :roll: :evil:
Pete
midget,
Assembled the block, girdle and oil pan. Dropped off the assembly with Mike @ Deerfield for the reverse engineering of the rear mounting plate/adaptor.
Offered up a Mini flywheel (smaller diameter than a Midget f/w) and a gear reduction starter assembly . . . . . Piece of cake. Probably won't have to carve the block at all with some clever mounting and orientation of the starter/solenoid.
I love it when a plan comes together!
:cheers:
HannibalSmithboy
Just as long as the flywheel isn't cast iron, or if it's aluminum, it's extruded, we're legal.
How reliable are they in racing applications?
Last year, MG took the British Touring Car Championship manufacturers championship, beating Honda, Vauxhall, BMW, Ford, Audi and Mercedes.
A few years back Judd (engdev.com) developed a 2L K series, sadly my memory has wiped most of what I was shown, but I seem to recall that injector type and position made, or lost, a chunk of power. Not very helpful I know, but it might rattle some grey cells. a link of sorts: http://www.engdev.com/wp-content/uploads/EDL_brochure.pdf
On a more important note, I picked up an "Old Crafty Hen" at the supermarket, just need a reason to open it :)
Mark, you mentioned duty cycle. Likewise, I'm concerned about maintaining electrical power. I don't know what kind of amperage electronic fuel injection draws, but I'm certain the fuel pressure required will be a heavier draw than the 4 psi pump currently in the Midget, and I'm not sure we'll be running an alternator. I think doubling up the injectors might require going to a 16v setup, as the Electromotive system doesn't like low voltage situations.
I figure you need about 19 lb/her injectors which are dime a dozen available. If you make lot more power than expected, sl larger are easy and duty cycle should be no issue. I used two batteries when was not running an alternator and it worked fine with never a suggestion of voltage issue. Put jumper cables from the push truck while waiting in line or a charger from generator. Also in impound. I was running in addition to the EFI and Ignition, water pumps (3), fuel pump and fans. Never calculated/measured the full up load but as I said, worked fine.
A few years back Judd (engdev.com) developed a 2L K series, sadly my memory has wiped most of what I was shown, but I seem to recall that injector type and position made, or lost, a chunk of power. Not very helpful I know, but it might rattle some grey cells. a link of sorts: http://www.engdev.com/wp-content/uploads/EDL_brochure.pdf
If we are able to choose, I want the injector to spray at the divider between the two valves. That's what Cosworth did with the DF's/BD's/FV's with timed mechanical injection.
If we are able to run 2 injectors/cylinder, I would want to spray the back of each inlet valve. I doubt if we are going to be able to test different injection setups.
You have to wonder if the stock injectors and fuel rail can flow an adequate amount of fuel for a 1.0 liter race engine . . . . . . . . . I'm thinking that a stock Lotus 1.8 liter is going to make more bhp than a full race 1.0L. Duty cycle of the injectors might be an issue though . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
It appears that the stock injectors and fuel rail will support up to 200 bhp.Most people and ECU's are using high impedance injectors, though some can do both, now that high flow (not your issue) are available. But easy to measure or find out and be sure when he picks his system
So if they are compatible with the ECU Chris chooses, they can be retained.
:cheers:
Forcboy
You really do shout a lot
G
Sorry. I was trying to be heard in Oz.
Is this better?
Here is a bone for you BMC 'A' series guys still reading the diary . . . . . .
Graham, et all,
As perhaps some of you are aware, even though the Milwaukee Midget is "upgrading" to 1980's technology, I continue to work with 'A' series racers in SCCA and Vintage. Mostly this is design work and geometry analysis, but there is a fair bit of flow testing, since having a "decent" cylinder head is the key to getting any power. And, as I have stated and posted before, there is no way to tell the "wheat from the chaff" by just looking at the bare heads.
So, without further comment, some advice:
I'm not going to put up any numbers on this today.
Just had the opportunity to flow test an older, Dave Tabor ported Mini head. 12G940 casting, Cooper 'S' size valves, 11 stud. Stamped CT201 on top.
On intake:
This head flows as well or better, than the latest and greatest from Swiftune, MED, et all, with a smaller valve . . . . .
On exhaust:
This head flows much better than the above examples, with an equal size valve.
This head was unearthed from a "dustbin" collection, so has been untouched for probably 20/25 years.
Bottom line is:
a) Dave Tabor undoubtedly knew something about BMC heads.
2) If you have the opportunity to procure an older Comptune/Dave Tabor cylinder head, especially at a low price, I say grab it, if it has not been screwed with . . . . .
d) If it has been "improved" by some nitwit without a flow bench, take a pass.
The ideal situation would be if you could arrange to flow test the head before purchase.
JMHO
:cheers:
Youcan'tknowwithouttestingboy
Most people and ECU's are using high impedance injectors, though some can do both, now that high flow (not your issue) are available. But easy to measure or find out and be sure when he picks his system
Chris, if you build it with 2x4 HD square tube it won't flex.... :-D
Ok, maybe not, that would help keep the front wheels on the ground if you ever get traction with that thing. If you mount HD grommets in the frame to bolt through it should allow a little movement without killing the radiator.
looking good :cheers:
There's something particular about a motor painted metallic brown........
Chris;
That is an awfully big radiator for such a small car. :-o
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Years ago when they were working on Parleys they detoured traffic to I84 north to (almost Ogden) UT89, to I15 back to I80. It is 9 miles farther, no long climbs, no SLC traffic, and usually 20 minutes faster for us. Now they added the Legacy Parkway beside I15, but both dump you out at the airport and I80. We haven't gone over the top for 20 years.
:cheers:
Chris,
If you are not askeerd of mucking about with foam and fiberglass, it may be possible to build a snout that covered the radiator and funneled down to the grill to make a forced air system that should help cool a bunch when moving.
I know guys that have made race car bodies and parts out of glassed over cardboard. :cheers:
OK, first full day of Spring 2015 is over. ONLY 504 days until Speed Week 2016. So boys and girls, as promised . . . . . . . . . . . .ROVERFEST!!! (like anybody but the 2 of us cares . . . . . . :roll:)Okay, Fordboy - back to work on the K - which we are now upgrading to an N for political reasons, which I'll explain over the phone.
Specs are looking like this -
56 mm stroke gets us 989 cc, and if we need to overbore by .5, we're at 1003, which is still under the 1015 class limit.
The Honda Acura rods are the best bet as far as size is concerned - 137 mm in a 201 deck height, provided we can get by with a 35mm pin height. Stock crown height is about 20 on a Rover 1.4 slipper piston. It's about 36 on an A series non-slipper slug.
This puts us at a 2.43 R/S ratio.
The stock Acura rods, by the way, are rev limited @ 7900 in the factory programming for a 1.8 @ 130 hp and a 89 mm stroke. Haven't done the math backwards yet, but I'm thinking properly prepped, they might be strong enough?
midget,
I have run some displacement and compression ratio numbers for analysis. There is some good news and some bad news. I'll start with the good news:
1) 75mm measured stock bore. Propose .5mm overbore to utilize existing barrels. Need to check wear to be sure the barrels will hone up clean. Bore diameters in
increments of .5mm provide the best availability for racing ring packages. If it appears the barrels won't clean up, 76mm bore may be an option.
2) As you calculated a 56mm stroke, (reduced from 79mm stock) gives a 1003cc displacement, well within the 1015cc limit. If 76mm bore is required, reducing the stroke
to 55mm gives a 998cc capacity. Or 55.25mm S gives 1003cc's; 55.5mm S gives 1007cc's.
3) Taking the stock dimensions and calculating the stock deck height results in a dimension of 201.9mm This is going to need to be verified, as this dimension will no
doubt remain fixed, within a small tolerance. This uses a stock piston compression height of 22.5mm, measured off the stock piston.
And that is the end of the good news . . . . . . . . .
4) Retaining the std deck height and reducing the stroke would increase the rod length to 151.4mm if keeping the std compression height. If the 137mm con rod length is
used, that results in a compression height of 36.9mm (1.453"). I'm thinking that a piston forging to fit those dimensions is unlikely, though I could be wrong. That
piston would be very heavy though, compromising the plan to use a narrow, low tension ring package. It would also limit the rpm potential of the piston/pin/rod.
5) If the piston compression height is increased to 28mm (1.102") the rod length could be reduced to 145.9mm. 30mm (1.181") = 143.9mm rod length. This is the
point where a piston mfg needs to be contacted, so the design can actually be produced from an existing forging at reasonable cost. I've seen guys draw all kinds of
parts, only to find out that they can only be made in the "Twilight Zone" . . . . . . Availability of piston forgings will dictate the rod length.
6) Rod length/stroke ratio is going to be very high with this setup. No way around it. Piston dwell at and around TDC, is going to create piston to valve clearance issues,
and the valve notches in the pistons will need to be pre-planned to be adequate.
7) Lack of the ability to shorten the deck height is becoming a real "PITA" here.
This is the part where we need to get together and do some serious drinking, er, thinking about the path forward. You will need some mfg info to make sensible choices.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Deck Height Measurement
midget,
OK, here are the actual measurements. The nominal listed deck height dimension you supplied was 201mm.
Main housing bore diameter = 2.031" (avg. spec.)
Main housing bore / 2 = 1.0155"
Front of block measurement: 7.459" (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155" = 7.9435" (201.76mm)
Rear of block measurement: 7.456" (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155" = 7.9405" (201.69mm)
So for design and machining purposes finished deck height is going to be 201.50mm (7.933").
This allows a slight amount to be surfaced off the block to "square" it up, unless the block needs to be align honed. If that is the case we may need to reduce that deck height dimension by a small amount, say an additional .005"/.010" (.127mm/.254mm)
This is about the point where dimensions can start to be "fixed" and the "build geometry" locked in, so parts can start to be ordered. Uhh oh!! :roll:
Oboy!! Oboy!! Oboy!!
:cheers:
Fordboy
Thanks, Mark.
55.5 seems to be the sweet spot.
That gives us the most latitude. If we resleeve, we're still at 981, if we punch out, even to 76, we're still class compliant at 1007 on a 1015 maximum. 75.5 bore puts us at 994.
Locking in at 55.5 won't ever hurt us - 56 would limit an option.
Can I grab the block and head this week and run it over to Mel to check alignment?
Chris
I thought I told you all fasteners are just glorified springs! :-o Be sure to go to a reputable screen door manufacturer for all your springs. At least the one for the door to the drinking deck! :-D :-D :cheers:
An interesting exercise -- Put one of the bolts back in and see how many turns you can get out of it and how the torque behaves. Probably considerably more turns than you would expect. Just because the material has yielded doesn’t mean it has given up the ghost.
Yes, I suspect a retorque with the ARPs would be prudent. :cheers:
Be sure to go to a reputable screen door manufacturer for all your springs. At least the one for the door to the drinking deck! :-D :-D :cheers:
Hey Plumberboy... nice re-purposing
You do a great job of staying out of the box :cheers:
Stainless
I don't think Plumerboy even knows what a box is and doesn't worry about it. :cheers: :cheers:
Ron
Better get huffin' and puffin'.
There a 995cc Honda (Impact?) entered in SpeedWeek this year in I/GT. The Japanese probably didn't study up in Subway Sandwich construction, either.
Interesting to see a number of cars in this class. Back in 08 I was commissioned to work with a guy building a 998 cosworth powered Ginetta.
I SURE HOPE SCTA DOES NOT THINK A HONDA INSIGHT IS A GT CAR.
I believe real, and original. He purchased from someone in Brittan in the mid 90's. Engine was pushrod 2 valve, Iron, siamesed port U flow but ran up to at least 7k rpm. It had two stage oil pump.
Used dual side draft DCOE (dont know the bore) I had headers made locally, without any real analysis like you and Chris are doing, but the package turned out pretty fast.
As I said if he ever comes down off his high horse and works on it, it could be an admirable competitor. He got lots of ink because his wife at the time worked for a BIG advertising firm. (even had a film crew)
Too bad he had no integrity.
Rick
I SURE HOPE SCTA DOES NOT THINK A HONDA INSIGHT IS A GT CAR.
It's a tough call.
While it certainly only has two seats, is it a "two seat production sports car"? Honda never referred to it as such.
Is a '49 Plymouth business coupe a sports car?
The '55 T-bird was marketed as a sports car, but that bench seat sat three.
Are we opening the floodgates to a plethora of Smart Cars running I/GT?
Of course, the rule also states "intended for comfortable high speed driving".
I'd certainly have to hope that those who certify records haven't actually driven a Midget . . . :roll:
It's all a bit murky these days, in that the wording harkens back to a time when sports cars were sports cars, and other cars were other cars.
It's all becoming a bit "Dolanesque" in the lower rungs of GT again . . .
I SURE HOPE SCTA DOES NOT THINK A HONDA INSIGHT IS A GT CAR.Sorry to disappoint- the Insight is classed GT. One held the G/GT record for a while, maybe still does. There was an I/GT prepared car at speedweek 2014 that of course didn't run then, I don't know about WOS but Chris beat them to the record anyway.
Just a comment -- the SCTA in its first sentence describing the GT class says that it's for "2-seat production sports cars".You are correct Stan, but GT falls under Production (5E general rules) rules that say 4 seats for coupe and sedan classes and by default if they don't have 4 ( the quibble about jump seats aside) they go to GT. How I understand it anyway. And there is precedent now as Chris points out. I think you would be hard pressed to get one into a coupe class.
It doesn't say "2-seat vehicles".
If it did, I'd guess that Pickups might qualify.
Chris, were you required to remove your cylinder head to verify the displacement of the Grenade after you set the record last year? Your displacement was clearly within 3% of the class minimum, but you never mentioned this in your comments.
Thanks, Gary
Gary, Dan wanted to pump it before we pulled the head. We popped the hood, removed the plugs and rocker assembly, and clamped the dummy pedestals in place. He picked a hole, we turned it over, he scrutinized the results and deemed it compliant off of the pump results.
I'm just curious and I do realize that it could cause other problems but, might it be possible to add weld to any part of the chambers to reduce the volume and maybe if you're really lucky increase efficiency? :? :-o :-D
I realize my perspective may be distorted by what I do. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
midget,
Any word from Wossner on possible dome volume?
:cheers:
Fordboy
If ya’ll haven’t already noticed, Fordboy’s woodworking skills are par excellence, and he is now the proud owner of what is likely the only MG/Rover K-series flow bench adapter in the Western Hemisphere!
I'm liking where this is going
G
I'm liking where this is going
G
We all do Graham, its going to Bonneville 8-) :cheers: :cheers:
Huge thank to John Noonan who got us the print on the piston.
The component listed in the catalog is a discontinued item. Seems nobody wants to race a 1.4 when a 1.8 is readily available, and I'm the only nitwit who thinks taking it to 1.0 from 1.4 is a good idea.
My thought process on this is by going through a supplier who already has the critical dimensions and angles in a CAD file, we can go through their catalog and find an appropriately sized forging from a different application, tweak the dimensions, and have them produce the piston to our modified spec based on their existing files.
I'll spend some time with the drawing tomorrow.
I also took the lifters out, filled 'em with oil and back primed the block a little bit. With the remote filter, I should be able to give it a solid oil prime before I turn it over.
35 years this thing's been sitting assembled??? You did a really good job on oiling up the bores. No corrosion whatsoever.
Also,
Got the neoprene gasket for the flow test slider made yesterday. Too bad neoprene won't work in the engine . . . . . . . . .
Another step closer . . . . . . :wink:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Also,
Got the neoprene gasket for the flow test slider made yesterday. Too bad neoprene won't work in the engine . . . . . . . . .
Another step closer . . . . . . :wink:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Actually, I was thinking we could get the long bolts made out of neoprene to increase the clamping pressure . . . :|
Also,
Got the neoprene gasket for the flow test slider made yesterday. Too bad neoprene won't work in the engine . . . . . . . . .
Another step closer . . . . . . :wink:
:cheers:
Fordboy
Actually, I was thinking we could get the long bolts made out of neoprene to increase the clamping pressure . . . :|
Careful with that, the increased hardness of the neoprene may gull the threads in the block. :roll:
Well, SHAZAAM!
It's amazing what gets done when you spend a month and a half with your pants around your ankles buried in other distractions.
I remember last time I had Greg whip me up a crank, I was waiting and worrying and tearing my hair out, and it seemed to take forever.
But now he's calling me and bitching that I need to get him dimensions in order to finish!
His e-mail to me read as follows . . .
"Chris, This is as light as I can make it with the info that I have. Greg"
And as usual, the work looks excellent . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/100_4626_zpsljprzdqn.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/100_4626_zpsljprzdqn.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/100_4627_zps1zvx6dvs.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/100_4627_zps1zvx6dvs.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/100_4628_zpsonvu8rbx.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/100_4628_zpsonvu8rbx.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/100_4629_zpseahsvcpm.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/100_4629_zpseahsvcpm.jpg.html)
Any chance of scaring up some O/S O.D. valves from REC? 2 each minimum?
:cheers:
Flowbeeboy
Any chance of scaring up some O/S O.D. valves from REC? 2 each minimum?
:cheers:
Flowbeeboy
What have we got for an overall length and stem diameter on these? I'm thinking there might be a common HP Motorcycle piece available stateside for testing purposes.
:roll:
Any chance of scaring up some O/S O.D. valves from REC? 2 each minimum?
:cheers:
Flowbeeboy
What have we got for an overall length and stem diameter on these? I'm thinking there might be a common HP Motorcycle piece available stateside for testing purposes.
:roll:
Insert Tab 'K' into Slot 'MG'
midget,
The start of the process, courtesy of Wiggle Pin . . . . . . . .
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/Rover%20Block%20Mounting%20Layout%20001_zpsyrvqg60t.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/Rover%20Block%20Mounting%20Layout%20001_zpsyrvqg60t.jpg.html)
Next step is to ghost in the 'A' series transmission mounting pattern on a different CAD layer. 1/2" thickness is going to be the minimum thickness for the adaptor plate, because of the need to use some metric flat head socket cap screws for the fasteners. Probably want to use 6061T-6 aluminum tooling plate for the adaptor.
Once everything is laid out, a mockup adaptor made out of 1/2" plywood or MDF will allow an "offer up", into the car. Layover angle, or lack thereof, can be assessed at that time. Layover is going to be dictated by space available for various items, injectors/inlet manifold and exhaust headers the most critical. The wood mockup is a cheap and easy way to research alternative layouts if required.
On another positive note, the starter fitment looks like it will be relatively straightforward using the existing bits.
:cheers:
Backfromhawaiiboy
midget,
Sent an inquiry to G&S via email to find out if the REC valves are even available. Will advise on the response.
:cheers:
Fordboy
One oversized feline, and every damned fool with a camcorder thinks he's Richard Attenborough.
There's more to worry about in alleys of the Brewer's Hill neighborhood than a lost lion.
I think it wants to sample Beerhaven's microbrews with a t-shirted white-tail . . . . . . .
[/quote Is that similar to the pink bellied double breasted mattress thrasher???/
Well, at least it's not a Bear . . . . . . oh wait, no danger to anyone in Sconnie Nation from one of them,
Well, at least it's not a Bear . . . . . . oh wait, no danger to anyone in Sconnie Nation from one of them,
Fordboy, I seem to recall, many many years ago, a quasi-professional football team in Illinois, and I think they were called the Bears.
Whatever happened to them?
I think it wants to sample Beerhaven's microbrews with a t-shirted white-tail . . . . . . .
Is that similar to the pink bellied double breasted mattress thrasher???
What a you going to call it, Bugeightti ? :-D
It's the "third switch" and an "open cockpit" . . . . . . . . .
Can you hold onto anything carbon fiber for a ground?
Probably give you an "electric" personality . . . . . . . :-D
:cheers:
midget,
Harold has graciously offered some Cosworth valves to the effort. He'll send them off next week. As soon as they arrive, I'll check out if they can be made to work. I'll have to find out if a .280" stem retainer will fit under the existing tappets. What will fit the existing tappet ID will be the key issue.
Pleasant weather today south of the "curtain". Methinks it calls for a weissbier . . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
... Sorry, my mind was just wandering there for a moment . . . . . . .
I blame the beer . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Adhdboy
... Sorry, my mind was just wandering there for a moment . . . . . . .
I blame the beer . . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Adhdboy
Beer is not the cause.... it is a solution.... :roll:
Oh Dodge Jerry, I should have saved that for Friday :cheers:
midget,
The centerless grinding company I used to use, phone quoted a whopping $250.00 to grind 4 valve stems from .279" diameter to .235" diameter. Then, CNC re-profiling of the valve heads would be on top of that . . . . . . .
I have to guess that the quote is the "We don't want to do this." price.
Drilling and reaming/honing the valve guides out to .279" diameter is looking better & better . . . . . . . . . Until we find out the tooling prices for that . . . . . . . . :|
:cheers:
Fordboy
I buy reamers all the time sized by the half thousandth. They don't cost much. Finish honing shouldn't be bad either. Go for it.
Scrambler,
The "trick" here is to "maximize" the area under the flow curve, in a way that the engine is able to utilize it, for the intended useable rpm range.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Scrambler,
The "trick" here is to "maximize" the area under the flow curve, in a way that the engine is able to utilize it, for the intended useable rpm range.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Do we really care about low lift flow? Only somewhat, but it is important for other applications.
Do we really care about mid lift flow? Yes
Do we really care about maximizing the area under the curve except for the last 500 rpm? Yes, but you need to optimize for your intended rpm range and number of trans gears.
My experience is that my bike gets up to within a few hundred rpm of its max hp rpm and then takes a long time to get over the wall. I think I'm only concerned about high lift, max hp rpm flow. At my speed vs. drag curve, 1 more hp results in 1 more mph. I don't care how steep the power curve is as long as the last 500 rpm give me the hp to speed increment I need.
For example, on my recent trip to Loring, I was going 140 mph at the 1 mile at 6400 rpm and 151 at the 1-1/2 mile at 6900 rpm. I have approximately 50 hp at 6900 rpm, but I only need 40 hp to achieve 140. So it seems the really important part of the curve is that from 6400 rpm to 6900 rpm, i.e. the last 8% of the hp/rpm curve.
Which is maybe just another way to say "in a way that the engine is able to utilize it, for the intended useable rpm range." YES
Tom
I'm with Tom (K-K) about only being concerned with the upper range of HP and finding the corresponding gears to KEEP the motor in that range at the critical top-gear change. No flow data here........Jerry Branch and others have flowed these motors about as many times as any other.........and more than most. We started with about 60-bhp and moved up to a little over 80 at the rear wheel. The only printed dyno sheet showed 78 but the battery connection fell off :-(
The custom-grind cam has wider lobe-centers which we believe move the HP curve upward in the rpm-range. OEM was at 8,000 to 8,500.........now its at 10,300 or so. We timed the cam according to spec and then played with ignition timing and found significant power at a +9-degrees from spec advance. The motor has a very rapid power-climb from 6500-rpms up in 3rd gear...............but our goal is to keep it above 8,000 when engaging 4th and 5th gears..............that means shifting at more than 10,000 rpms..........or PEAK HP.........and hoping the motor will pull better than 9000 in top gear.
I'll be travelling for a few days.............
Actually Mark, I didn't have my brain in gear when I wrote that post! I was talking flow vs. RPM while you were talking flow vs. lift. I agree that the area under the flow vs. lift curve is always important, but most important at high RPM (if we were actually able to measure that). In any case, the cam in my motor is a road racing cam, as I don't know if anything more appropriate is even available, and my power curve looks more like a diesel truck, with a very wide flat hp curve so I don't have any appreciable dip to overcome until I hit the wall, right at my max hp vs. rpm intersection. I'm going to try overgearing it this year to see what happens.Scrambler,
The "trick" here is to "maximize" the area under the flow curve, in a way that the engine is able to utilize it, for the intended useable rpm range.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Do we really care about low lift flow? Only somewhat, but it is important for other applications.
Do we really care about mid lift flow? Yes
Do we really care about maximizing the area under the curve except for the last 500 rpm? Yes, but you need to optimize for your intended rpm range and number of trans gears.
My experience is that my bike gets up to within a few hundred rpm of its max hp rpm and then takes a long time to get over the wall. I think I'm only concerned about high lift, max hp rpm flow. At my speed vs. drag curve, 1 more hp results in 1 more mph. I don't care how steep the power curve is as long as the last 500 rpm give me the hp to speed increment I need.
For example, on my recent trip to Loring, I was going 140 mph at the 1 mile at 6400 rpm and 151 at the 1-1/2 mile at 6900 rpm. I have approximately 50 hp at 6900 rpm, but I only need 40 hp to achieve 140. So it seems the really important part of the curve is that from 6400 rpm to 6900 rpm, i.e. the last 8% of the hp/rpm curve.
Which is maybe just another way to say "in a way that the engine is able to utilize it, for the intended useable rpm range." YES
Tom
Tom,
See my comments in your text. I agree with your assessment, with one limitation. As long as you have enough gears to keep the engine in a productive part of the rpm band, you will be OK, up to the point where drag hp = bhp available. In 2013, using the close ratio 4 speed trans, once the Milwaukee Midget got into 4th gear, it would only pull up to the rpm where there was a torque & bhp "dip" in the curves, it would never pull past that spot. I believe that the rear wheel torque available at that point was equal to the drag force for that speed, 118+ mph. When the engine was redone for 2014, we worked hard to increase the bhp available and remove the "dips" from the curve. That and other changes, worked out well.
Narrow and steep power curves work, as in F1, because they have lots of gears to keep the engine in the intended rpm range. When your engine "falls off the power curve" it might not be able to pull itself back up into the peak part of the power band in the higher gears.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Actually Mark, I didn't have my brain in gear when I wrote that post! I was talking flow vs. RPM while you were talking flow vs. lift. I agree that the area under the flow vs. lift curve is always important, but most important at high RPM (if we were actually able to measure that). In any case, the cam in my motor is a road racing cam, as I don't know if anything more appropriate is even available, and my power curve looks more like a diesel truck, with a very wide flat hp curve so I don't have any appreciable dip to overcome until I hit the wall, right at my max hp vs. rpm intersection. I'm going to try overgearing it this year to see what happens.
Incidentally, your flow bench testing is fascinating.
Tom
The valve-design is the primary focus of the info I was sharing...............I have no idea if the FERREA products can be adapted to your head.........I merely offered a source of light-weight components for your consideration. One of our goals was to slightly increase the size of the intake valve (34 to 35mm) because the seats were pitted and quite a bit of material would be removed. Dave did not want to sink the valves. When he saw the trail-set his eyes lit-up as if he had opened a jewelry box :-D. Secondary goals were to have lighter weight components, flat valve faces, thinner stems and/or the super-flow design, and matching components on the exhaust side.
This motor design uses a hemi-shaped head into which we planned to run high-domed pistons. Rather than shave and deck for increased compression, we exchanged rods to push the pistons 1mm higher into the head. This kept valve-shrouding to a minimum. Our motor is a 1mm overbore from stock, but the larger valves are quite close to the outer edges. We slightly milled the outer edge of the chamber to assure sufficient piston to head clearance. We also had to fly-cut the piston valve-reliefs to clear the larger valves.
midget,
Something in the 38mm/40mm blade diameter should be adequate and give good throttle response. That should also allow sufficient taper in the inlet tract for a reasonable "energy gain" in gas speed in the inlet tract. I'm thinking shorter throttle bodies may give more manifold design flexibility. Try not to "re-invent the wheel" please.
Mark - I found a wheel supplier!
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/ROVER-K-SERIES-DIY-BIKE-CARB-THROTTLE-BODIES-INLET-MANIFOLD-KIT-41mm-/151732150262?hash=item2353f0dff6
Not tapered, but a starting point.
Dick at MG Ltd. has been taper boring his custom BMC intake manifolds.
Dick at MG Ltd. has been taper boring his custom BMC intake manifolds.
:-o
I keep looking overseas, and I forget about the resources right down the street! :-D
Dick at MG Ltd. has been taper boring his custom BMC intake manifolds.
:-o
I keep looking overseas, and I forget about the resources right down the street! :-D
Mike @ Deerfield has made a custom taper bored inlet manifold for his SCCA "Turdner". He could probably machine up what is required. He can also do a CAD layout on center for proper alignment in both planes.
Just another possibility.
:cheers:
Fordboy
midget,
Hate to ask, but what is the status of "Lazarus from Dodge City" . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
It does snow where you live,right?
Terry
There just comes a time and a place when a guy has to say, “Enough is ENOUGH!”
Today is Ground Hog Day – the day when the Ground Hog digs up out of his burrow, pokes his head up, and determines if we will have 6 more weeks of winter, or if spring is right around the corner.
If the Ground Hog does not see his shadow, spring is right around the corner. If the Ground Hog sees his shadow, then we have 6 more weeks of winter.
So I got up bright and early on this clear, sunny, yet bitterly cold February morning, and welcomed the Ground Hog . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/DSCN5340_zps44e0a0f0.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/DSCN5340_zps44e0a0f0.jpg.html)
. . . and I’m happy to report that the Ground Hog DID NOT SEE HIS SHADOW.
Not cool but hey I don't know ground hogs :cry:
midget,
Hate to ask, but what is the status of "Lazarus from Dodge City" . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Meah, guns. Too dangerous, and my aim's not that good. No, I prefer the visceral adrenaline rush of a large can of whoopass being opened up with hickory handled garden spade or a Louisville Slugger. You can't accidentally beat a gopher to death with a hoe, and it draws less attention from the neighbors.
Anyway, enough Quentin Tarantino.midget,
Hate to ask, but what is the status of "Lazarus from Dodge City" . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
Here's the story - it's ugly.
Two weeks ago, my Magnum RT, which had been suffering from a wobbly front end and an intermittent ABS warning light issue, decided to go into "Limp Home" mode. Between the rusting right front fender, bad tone rings on the rear axles, the rear speed sensors, a code indicating a transmission speed sensor issue, an unaddressed transmission wiring harness service bulletin and the likelihood that in order to get the thing back on the road, we would be replacing rear hubs, brakes, and pulling the transmission, I determined that my time with my Mopar had come to an end.
It pulled the Midget to Maxton once, and to Bonneville three times. It hauled me back and forth to work for 5 years, made trips to Indy twice, Iowa countless times, Detroit, Wilmington - it did everything I asked of it.
It's got 153,000 miles on it, it's 10 years old, and I simply can't justify putting the money into it anymore. It's had 4 front end jobs, for pity's sake!
And to be truthful, I liked the idea of the car much more than I ever liked the car.
A fellow with more patience than I will now have the honor of rebuilding the Magnum. I received cash, he received title, keys and my undying gratitude.
So I made a deal on a low mileage 2001 F-150. New clutch, new brakes, recent tires, the air and cruise work, it's a 5 speed stick with the 4.2 V6, CLEAN interior, bed liner, tow package, short bed, fits into the garage, and it's just in a heck-of-a-lot nicer shape than the Magnum.
Certainly not as authoritative a tow vehicle, but the Midget and trailer combined weighs in at 2,500, so I don't think I'll be pulling the guts out of it.
I picked it up for less than the repair estimate on the Magnum. I'll have it Saturday.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/f-150_zpsnqesqhue.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/f-150_zpsnqesqhue.jpg.html)
And now, back to fermented beverage reviews, truck talk and what passes for science on the:
Urban Rodent Elimination Idea Board.
:cheers:
Notallthatkeenaboutrodentsboy
Oh wait, I think the world ends after the Cubs win a Cubs Vs Red Sox World Series . . . . . . . . Sooo, not this year.
Them featuring Van Morrison
I did not know that Van Morrison came from Quicksilver.No, not them, Them. Who? Guess Who. Yes! It's a Beautiful Day!
You Californians are show-offs! You know the bands of that era way better than those of us way up north in the "middle west". I never got far enough into the group(s) to know the names of the artists. Now -- if you ask me much about the Guess Who -- from Winnipeg, Manitoba -- them I know about! :evil:
Between the Harleys, Healeys and MGs, I suspect the parking lot looked like the aftermath of the Exxon Valdez by Saturday night.
I/GT Trivia Contest
midget, et all,
Guess what this is:
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/10-15-2015%20Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20111_zpswoktxmae.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/10-15-2015%20Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20111_zpswoktxmae.jpg.html)
I hope you made the Healey guys pay to reseal the parking lot!!!!!!
:dhorse:
Fordboy
Having worked on FF's, I thought of #1 immediately. :cheers:
I/GT Trivia Contest
midget, et all,
Guess what this is:
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/10-15-2015%20Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20111_zpswoktxmae.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/10-15-2015%20Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20111_zpswoktxmae.jpg.html)
Ahh, it's either a heavy duty cup cover for a 7-11 Big Gulp, or a prototype hockey puck with safety wire provisions to prevent unaware spectators from losing their teeth while eating nachos at the United Center.
It'll look nice once it's chromed.
Hope everything goes smoothly Mark.
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20011_zpsx1ohmxdq.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20011_zpsx1ohmxdq.jpg.html) (http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20013_zpsedxtkpwe.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/Marks%20Android%20Phone%20Camera%20013_zpsedxtkpwe.jpg.html)
Fortunately, it appears that the corrosion is confined to the interface between the barrel and the block at the bottom of the water jacket. And it was easily "broken" with a bit of localized heat from a propane torch and a BFH. More extensive corrosion might have needed an acetylene torch with a rosebud, but, again,
Some corrosion removal is in order here. Perhaps bead, or other media, blasting, of the localized, corroded areas of both the block and the barrels.
Is bead blast going to be soft enough for an aluminum crankcase where we need to reinsert a close tolerance steel cylinder?
And this one goes out to the machinists among you -
Is it possible to hone these cylinder liners outside of the block to a standard that will get us a proper crosshatch that will work with gapless rings? We used a deck plate on the A series in order to provide an assembled condition clamp load and minimize bore distortion, but I'm wondering if that's a viable option with a wet liner block such as this?
Let me try the thinner and some Scotchbrite pads, first. That's a job I can accomplish while drinking beer, if I'm careful.
I would not think that honing the sleeves and then inserting them in the block would have much of a chance to be nearly as accurate as honing the sleeves once installed in the block. Any interference between the sleeve and the block will cause some distortion of the sleeve. I agree with Jacksoni, walnut shells or plastic beads only for blasting the block.
Rex
I don't post much on your build because it's scary stuff. :-o
Screw up isn't in your vocab.
It's called progress!!!!.
. . .
You're still my #1 pick for "Nuts" of the year and we're talking big chrome round ones. :cheers:
Do you have any plans to run the Midget at The Ohio Mile in 2016?
I'm posting this [verbatim] for my friend David Vizard.
Attached is a photo of the re-built engine that my daughter Jacque built the long block for primarily to test cylinder heads for my SB Ford book. After the testing was done she used much of the short block to re-build the engine for the 1969 Boss 302 Mustang she was to race for car owner Thad Cook. I did not want to rebuild this engine in the form of the race engine for at 525 hp I was concerned about its life and the point of using it as a memorial was that it would last a long time hence the rebuild in a lower output form previous to that.
I want to take this opportunity to thank you and all others concerned for the contributions toward making this happen. Rebuilding this engine has repeatedly taken me back to the times when Jacque and I would work in the shop together. Times that will never be again.
When news of Jacque’s passing spread the amount of response my wife Josephine and I received was overwhelming. We had many suggestions that we should organize something and in some way memorialize her. The re-building of this engine is just the start of this and the way it is being done is the sum of all the best idea’s sent to us by so many well-wishers worldwide.
The plan with this engine is to sell it to someone who has a nice 1969 Mustang that will be well maintained as a show car as much as anything. Failing that the installation into a nice Fox bodied Mustang would also work. The asking price of the engine is $6850 which is less than the cost of the parts. The proceeds from this will go toward the construction of the memorial on the site where Jacque passed. This is in a very secluded scenic spot in the woods of a local land owner who has graciously allowed us to dedicate and develop this location in Jacque’s memory.
Selling this engine is critical to the start of the memorial site development. If you can use your social media to make it known that this engine is available I am sure that would of help. It is being advertised on Terry Walters Engines site at http://www.twperformanceparts.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=88_90&product_id=5538 where a full technical spec of the engine is given. It is also advertised on EBay at:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/121806099595 Also more on the drive to bring about the construction of the memorial site is on my Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/DavidVizardAuto and https://www.facebook.com/david.vizard.56.
The Benz radio will live on - I doubt in 2075, anyone will be marveling over a Clarion Bluetooth receiver.
If it's out there 4-barrel Mike will find it, that's for sure. :cheers:
4-barrel Mike has always got my back - and thanks to Mike, my Christmas shopping is done . . .
https://teespring.com/mg-ugly-christmas-sweater
... Every piston I have ever seen from Diamond has been "monstrously" heavy. I am currently trying to get one of my vintage clients to change from Diamond to JE... The Diamonds are cheap though...Sorry to dig so far back into this thread. But in general I respect what FordBoy posts; which left me very puzzled by this response to my selection of Diamond for custom billet pistons. Reading tonight about Dutweiler's continued use of Diamond pistons in Speed Demon engines reminded me of this puzzling statement. Was FordBoy being sarcastic? If not, I'll try some sarcasm of my own- maybe he should try to get Kenny to "change from Diamond to JE". :roll:
Why would anyone change to JE?
X2 Can tell a true horror story about that.
Ron
Might try to post some pictures later, but you are going to have to travel beneath the "cheddar curtain" for a meaningful, personal inspection of the bits.
"Uncharted territory is a bitch." Reputedly attributed to Sir Ernest Shackleton . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Silicasuckingboy
13 passes total at Bonneville, 2 at Maxton, a lot of time on the dyno, and no problems with the J&Es in the Midget.
But then, no boost and less than 100 hp.
... Every piston I have ever seen from Diamond has been "monstrously" heavy. I am currently trying to get one of my vintage clients to change from Diamond to JE... The Diamonds are cheap though...Sorry to dig so far back into this thread. But in general I respect what FordBoy posts; which left me very puzzled by this response to my selection of Diamond for custom billet pistons. Reading tonight about Dutweiler's continued use of Diamond pistons in Speed Demon engines reminded me of this puzzling statement. Was FordBoy being sarcastic? If not, I'll try some sarcasm of my own- maybe he should try to get Kenny to "change from Diamond to JE". :roll:
FB
I always get an increase in expectations when I see you are the person who posted last on this build---I don't know if it going to be a zinger back at the Packer deranged fellow or building insights but whichever I am usually rewarded. :cheers:
Mark, have Chris give you a fifth of Kenny's budget (that's a good per inch of motor size comparison) and I'll bet you guys push the I real high... :roll:
I like Wossner pistons as well.... they treat the LSR guys well, kinda like JE used to do when John Noonan was there...
hummmmm.... :roll: :cheers:
Bob,
I'm setting the over/under for the fraction of Dutweiler's budget that Chris can afford, at double digits as opposed to single. Uhhhmmm, count me in for a sawbuck on the over, the waaay over. :roll: Sorry Chris. But I'll still bet that Chris' results with the new engine, first time out, will be a satisfactory one, regardless of dollar amount spent.
I checked the fridge this morning before I went to work. There was food in there, so I'm still under budget . . .MM
silly boy
you look for liquids in bottles and cans--not that solid stuff that can spoil!!!!!!!!!
Chris,
I wish I could sit in the back seat to and from Indy and just say "why's that" every once and awhile.
Terry
I checked the fridge this morning before I went to work. There was food in there, so I'm still under budget . . .MM
silly boy
you look for liquids in bottles and cans--not that solid stuff that can spoil!!!!!!!!!
I'll never learn - there has been more than one night when I've found myself elbow deep into the project, realize I'm thirsty and looked at the clock, only to discover the startling truth that the liquor store had already closed.
Food?
Pork Chops come in cans and bottles....
I checked the fridge this morning before I went to work. There was food in there, so I'm still under budget . . .MM
silly boy
you look for liquids in bottles and cans--not that solid stuff that can spoil!!!!!!!!!
I'll never learn - there has been more than one night when I've found myself elbow deep into the project, realize I'm thirsty and looked at the clock, only to discover the startling truth that the liquor store had already closed.
Food?
Pork Chops come in cans and bottles....
midget,
Contacted Bill @ Mahle Aftermarket, from the PRI show.
midget,Crikey- I found one site that listed them at 198brit lbs (168 ex VAT) and that is just for the mains! Ouch!
Contacted Bill @ Mahle Aftermarket, from the PRI show. He is going to check availability and vendors for the race quality Rover main bearing set, and get back to me.
Part # is: VM 1012
:cheers:
Fordboy
Crikey- I found one site that listed them at 198brit lbs (168 ex VAT) and that is just for the mains! Ouch!
Fordboy, did you speak with Bill McKnight?
John
Crikey- I found one site that listed them at 198brit lbs (168 ex VAT) and that is just for the mains! Ouch!
Chris- For one of my engines I added grooves to the non-grooved main bearing halves, on my manual mill. Used a main cap for a holding fixture- one end of insert resting against a fence, a bolt & washer clamping the other end of the insert in place (both out of the way of the groove to be cut). Ground a round-nose tool bit to swing in an offset boring head. The main cap is clamped in place, for repetitive cutting of the other inserts. Worked out fine. Those main prices would make the effort well worth it in your case.
Crikey- I found one site that listed them at 198brit lbs (168 ex VAT) and that is just for the mains! Ouch!
Did we mention we're reworking the oiling system, and we'll need 2 sets to get grooved bearings on both the top and the bottom of the journals?
It's starting to cut into my beer money . . . :cry:
Pipemax says:
1* pipe 1.079-1.204" OD x 19.9-22.1" long
Megaphone collector 1.563 taper up to 2.563: x 11.9" long.
Burns stainless has been quite good in my experience. You might get a call direct from Vince with specs. They will suggest (I think) a merge collector with megaphone to reverse cone tip. Be interesting to see how close to above.
I used 110VE- which may be low, 135mm rod (my memory, did not go way back to find the discussions on rod in the thread) and 9000rpm peak hp. Pipemax at this predicted in the 125hp + or - range. At 8500 was in the 116 range. Remember Pipemax is not a full up simulation program but one to help design the best header when you know specs and in fact have some data, such is VE%'s from dyno work.
With the open deck architecture of the Vega, the sleeve tied the bores and the outside of the block together to stiffen everything. It will help keep stuff straight and square, IMO>
With the open deck architecture of the Vega, the sleeve tied the bores and the outside of the block together to stiffen everything. It will help keep stuff straight and square, IMO>
Jack, I'm convinced you're right. Simply using the compression of the long bolts to hold things together is in no way going to provide the kind of stability I want in a racing engine. GM gave up on with the Vega - unfortunately, Rover lacked the resources to start with a clean sheet of paper.
Our discussions at PRI led us to the proposition of skipping the MLS gasket arrangement as well - for 2 reasons.
1 - The high performance MLS gasket available for the K is designed for both the 1.6/1.8 engine, which have 80 mm bores. This gives away too much compression in a 1 liter with 75 mm bores. It's a battle we've been through before, and we're not retaking that hill again.
2 - We've decided to O-ring the cylinders and put a retaining grove in the head. This will give us better control over the volume of the chamber and a better method to lock into place the positioning of the head. With the liners pressed into place and any positioning issue resolved, a thinner copper gasket - thinner than the stock gasket - can be used. At that point, we'll be looking at sealing off the oil and water passages between the block and the head with O-rings.
Toys are arriving. The junk head arrived from Germany yesterday. The bearing journals are mucked up, but we're using this to experiment with flow and porting. It wasn't cheap getting it here, but it's here.
Podunk is on the case whipping up a deck plate. Terry, again, thank you!
Adjustable cam pulleys arrived from France this afternoon.
Ordered the ARP studs today that replace the long bolts. Estimated arrival - Christmas Eve.
They'll look nice in my stockings on the mantle.
Chris and Mark,
Doing a little "blue sky" thinking about your project I was wondering of the possibility of running larger copper wire, say .06 or even .08 diameter, with appropriate matching groves cut in both the head and the tops of the sleeves. Design the groves so that with the wire installed and the head torqued there would be a 20 to 30 thou gap between the head and the top of the block, then have a solid copper gasket made that would fill this space and keep the water jacket orings in place and sealed. This way the compression seal is the copper wire and it is also acting as a key that provides location and strength for the head/block interface.
Just a thought and I know it is your deal and money but as "they" say:" you are having intercourse with this cat, I am merely holding it's head!"
Rex
... [SCE] made custom solid copper head gaskets for us...Ditto. .022" thick most recently.
... running larger copper wire, say .06 or even .08 diameter... is also acting as a key that provides location and strength for the head/block interface...From my experience, I don't recommend this. Due to build-up of dimensional tolerances, some cylinders would be fighting against others to do "location"; not to mention fighting against head-to-block dowels. Traditional (and proven) receiver grooves is better (receiver groove wide enough to prevent the "fight", but still create a compression seal via the copper). Drawing shows typical deminsions for .024" copper).
And, given the thrust of the two recently cited “technical” articles, are these mods sufficiently consistent with the basic philosophy of the engine?
Chris and Mike,
After reading the "Racecar Engineering" article on your engine type (I actually have that issue!) I noted the discussion regarding the through bolt that hold everything together and so I review your earlier post and I think that you are planning to go with some custom studs in place of the factory bolts. The article discussed the over torquing of the bolts causing localized material yielding around the bolt head and the nuts which is a good reason not to exceed the specified torque but also you need to make sure that the shank of your studs are the same diameter as the stock bolts so that at the specified torque you have the same clamping force. Obviously you will be making the studs from a higher strength material and the specified torque should be sufficiently below the material yield strength to allow multiple use. Lubrication between the nut (or bolt head) that you are torquing is the most important thing you can do to assure proper torquing if you cannot measure the increase in length. Back in 1968 Volkswagen decided that they could save some money by making the case studs out of rod with rolled threads on each end and do away with machining/grinding the stud shanks down to the thread minimum diameter as all previous engines had been done. Well after 70-80000 miles the heads would become loose and literally lift off of the cylinders and you could not re-torque them because the threads were pulled out of the engine cases because the case studs would not stretch with the expansion of the engine when it got hot.
Rex
Chris,
Quoting myself: "The article discussed the over torquing of the bolts causing localized material yielding around the bolt head and the nuts which is a good reason not to exceed the specified torque " The material they were talking about was the head and the lower end girdle. If you plan to exceed the specified torque, which I think was 34 ft-lbs, then I would trust that you are using some larger diameter and thick washer on both ends to eliminate this problem? I know that I am picking at the nits but there is no reason to go down the creek that is full of failed K series motors.
Dodge fun to watch you guys go through this "reloading"!!!
Rex
Rex,
In the RE article, where he talks about the bolts causing fatigue failure of the block, it can’t very well be an underhead crushing problem since the bolts don’t bear on the block, only the head and ladder. And when he talks about “bearing crush” I believe he is referring to distortion of the block/ladder due to overtorque overloading, and consequent distortion of the main bearing housings and/or alignment, not the underhead area of the bolts.
... running larger copper wire, say .06 or even .08 diameter... is also acting as a key that provides location and strength for the head/block interface...
From my experience, I don't recommend this. Due to build-up of dimensional tolerances, some cylinders would be fighting against others to do "location"; not to mention fighting against head-to-block dowels. Traditional (and proven) receiver grooves is better (receiver groove wide enough to prevent the "fight", but still create a compression seal via the copper). Drawing shows typical deminsions for .024" copper).
I just read into this build very late, but why use copper O-rings instead of stainless??? Many applications use stainless and skip the head gasket.
MM/Fordboy:
Given:
Only one liter, NA, 75mm bore, ~ 150 hp 999 cc, ~61 cubic inches. Bhp goal for first iteration: 125 bhp ~2.05 bhp/cu. in.
Top-hung liners with light diametral interference fit for lateral location The liners are not "top hung". Very slight interference/clearance at the base, but the barrels are in compression between the block and the cylinder head/gasket.
Steel dowels Yes.
Rubber (Viton/Silicon?) coated thin copper gasket Flatout uses a very thin (.001"/.002") clear silicon rubber coating on both sides of the copper material.
11,000 lb preload per bolt (per standard) The plan is actually to use as much preload as the parts can tolerate, without undue distortion of said parts. Easy to say, tougher to accomplish.
Then:
Are O-rings and O-ring grooves needed? Yes. Why? Because I'm basically conservative and do not wish to damage parts and incur extra costs in the development phase. The damaged parts might not be able to be "reclaimed". And since the parts are not readily available and cheap here in the US, why take the risk? About 2 bhp/cu. in. is where head gaskets start experiencing serious compression loadings and failures. Since ultimately we are looking for as much bhp as possible (what racer isn't?) it is just simpler to use the best compression sealing from the start. Note that shim steel and MLS gaskets all use embossing to enhance the compression seal. The manufacturers don't do it just to add cost.
Are liner diameters enlarged to the extent of needing siamesing needed? Yes. Why? The small amount of bearing area on the bottom of the cylinder "shoulder" onto the block casting is inadequate. This is a crucial flaw in the original design, and that is not just my opinion. Specialty sleeve manufacturers share this thought. To increase the load carrying area the sleeve's OD must be enlarged. Block bore diameter ~3.32"/84.3 mm. 3 mm minimum sleeve bearing "width" per side adds: 6 mm + 84.3 mm = 90.3 mm That is greater than the 88 mm bore spacing, so a small "flat" must be machined on adjacent sleeves, to fit into the block. Depending on further analysis of the space available inside the water jacket, we might go even larger than 3 mm to increase the bearing area further.
It seems to be completely functional and a lot simpler without those two features (and little or no concern about coining the head). It would be a lot simpler, that is sure. But rather than go through the development cycle one step at a time, say the way OEM's do, I would rather use my engineering experience to take a "shotgun approach" from the outset. It spends some extra money perhaps early on, but usually prevents some expensive, stupid failures that can claim a lot of parts. If you are an OEM, parts are cheap. If you are working on something unique or rare, I try to bypass some steps in the development process (based on my engineering and/or experience) because it is cheaper in the long run.
MM/Fordboy:
Be assured that none of my ruminating is in any way a criticism, only trying to understand how it is going together and suggest a couple of things that had occurred to me. I swear I read somewhere (not here) that the liners were top hung. Your explanations make sense, of course, and I would agree with them. Belt and suspenders.
600,000 :-o
hmmm you two are running the Pied Piper a hard race or--- :?
there are an unusual number of LSR sick lemmings being led to a formerly dried up---- inland sea following this build :-D
Some of my best friends are Lemmings. :cheers:
MARK - Check you e-mails!
there are an unusual number of LSR sick lemmings being led to a formerly dried up---- inland sea following this build :-D
Chris, I 'spose you've been to Mark's garage, but since I don't remember seeing photos, would you, next time you're there, shoot some shots and let us know just what it looks like to have a garage that "looks like a goat exploded in it"?
I'm just curious, that's all. :roll:
. . . the best combination for best power configuration for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke. . . . That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)Who would be so bold as to speak in opposition to you? What are some of the most extreme bore/stroke ratios in successful racing engines?
. . . the best combination for best power configuration for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke. . . . That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)Who would be so bold as to speak in opposition to you? What are some of the most extreme bore/stroke ratios in successful racing engines?
Gentlemen Power Rangers, :-D
Kindly note the engineering exercises of engine design where one quickly learns that TORQUE is proportional to displacement and POWER is proportional to Piston area. Thus the best combination for best power configuration for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke. The stroke does not produce torque nor is it a torque multiplier unless it increases displacement. :-o :roll:
That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)
Regards to All and a Happy New Year as well. Stay safe.
HB2 :-)
PS - May a pox fall upon the Bureau of Land Mismanagement and may they feel the heat of my Congressman who will contact them happily in 2016. :cheers:
. . . the best combination for best power configuration for a given displacement will always be the largest bore and the shortest stroke. . . . That should stir up an amount of comments that are in opposition to the factual statement above. 8-)Who would be so bold as to speak in opposition to you? What are some of the most extreme bore/stroke ratios in successful racing engines?
FB, others and I share a common mantra: "Compared to what?" :-o
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm
Be sure to read down to the EPC definition. Most everyone is gonna be somewhere in between most of the criteria! :cheers:
More than one way to skin a water buffalo and the water buffalo is not happy with any of them! :-D
Do y'all like the larger images?
Bob the Web Elf
Do y'all like the larger images?
Bob the Web Elf
Parts are starting to trickle in again. The uprated oiling ladder and head gasket kit arrived this week. The old oil rail is at Podunk's to help him design the deck plate. While I can't give you a side-by-side of the old and new, it's quite clear that this piece - the foundation of the sandwich - is substantially heavier than the standard piece it replaces. The ARP studs call for 50 ft/lbs of torque - I've little doubt this piece will tolerate it. 25mm of 9 mm threads, and better load distribution through the girdle than the spindly, older unit . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN0513_zpsrkas76hu.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN0513_zpsrkas76hu.jpg.html)
Gaskets -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN0512_zpslvavrwhm.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN0512_zpslvavrwhm.jpg.html)
Way cool!!
How does the combination of ARP and new girdle fit up to the block and head?
:cheers:
Fordboy
Will be curious to see how many of those gaskets you actually use. I think on my engine I use one stock gasket (front cover) Rest are truly unobtanium or custom (copper head gasket). When I was originally building my motor 10 years or so ago, GM had a kit of parts for building a SD4 Pontiac motor. I got one of the last (according to the parts guy locally). Whole big box of stuff. Since I was starting totally from scratch and didn't have a base motor for the small stuff, a few things were used but most are still sitting on my shelf.....:)
Will be curious to see how many of those gaskets you actually use. I think on my engine I use one stock gasket (front cover) Rest are truly unobtanium or custom (copper head gasket). When I was originally building my motor 10 years or so ago, GM had a kit of parts for building a SD4 Pontiac motor. I got one of the last (according to the parts guy locally). Whole big box of stuff. Since I was starting totally from scratch and didn't have a base motor for the small stuff, a few things were used but most are still sitting on my shelf.....:)
I bought the kit to use the head gasket as a template for a copper head gasket. The rest of the kit - intake, exhaust, valve cover, etc., came with it. If I'm able to use them, great. If not, no biggy, and the cost difference was minimal, once shipping was included.
But I needed the head gasket for certain.
Woody,
As usual your recommendations for good reading are extremely interesting and informative. Just a quick note on a engine that my good friend Steward Van Dyne just built for a USAC dirt car. The engine is 330 cu. in. and makes 800 hp at 8800 rpm and using the articles formula for EPC (Engine Performance Coefficient) it has an EPC of .551 which is 7.4% higher than the NASCAR engine and 2.8% higher than the F-1 engine! Not bad for an engine that drags a car around in the dirt!!
Rex
Woody,
As usual your recommendations for good reading are extremely interesting and informative. Just a quick note on a engine that my good friend Steward Van Dyne just built for a USAC dirt car. The engine is 330 cu. in. and makes 800 hp at 8800 rpm and using the articles formula for EPC (Engine Performance Coefficient) it has an EPC of .551 which is 7.4% higher than the NASCAR engine and 2.8% higher than the F-1 engine! Not bad for an engine that drags a car around in the dirt!!
Rex
Rex,
Is the USAC engine mentioned above running on methanol? Just curious. That would need to be factored in Vs. engines running on gasoline, especially unleaded gas as used in Cup engines. However, still very impressive output. Your buddy obviously knows his stuff. Can they keep it hooked up on the dirt?
:cheers:
Fordboy
A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM even with the plate and the inlet velocities were lower through the plate orifice which allowed them to actually flow more air relative to the engine displacement. Once NASCAR found out about this they immediately made a rule for a mimum engine displacement of around 355 inches! So some times smaller can be better.
Rex
Rex
A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM even with the plate and the inlet velocities were lower through the plate orifice which allowed them to actually flow more air relative to the engine displacement. Once NASCAR found out about this they immediately made a rule for a mimum engine displacement of around 355 inches! So some times smaller can be better.
Rex
Rex
Yet another reason I can't stand NASCAR . . .
That's just a "brain fart", SOP in that organization. "Brain dead" Brian strikes again this year. You know, in order to "keep costs down" . . . . . . and keep every engine guy's "hair on fire" . . . . . . .
It's just the cost of doing business in NASCAR. And the reason why many guys walk away from it.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Now I'm going the soapbox . . .
I realize NASCAR has become a "cult of personalities", and it's the drivers that generate the cash, but imagine how interesting a series it could be if the cars looked like something you could actually get at your local dealer, that the basis of the cars were the stock platforms, and a naturally aspirated variant of any engine by the same manufacturer could be utilized. I think back to early 1970's Trans Am and NASCAR - George Follmer running what was obviously a Mustang, Richard Petty in a Satellite, or Mark Donohue in a Javelin or a Matador, and then I look at these BS bellybutton cars circling at Charlotte or Bristol today, and I just wonder, what idiot let Stock Car Racing get this far out of sync with reality?
Here's a decent example of a modified stock platform - Swede Savage's '70 Cuda. Yes, it's not NASCAR, but the point I'll make is that while it's clearly a race car, so much of it remains stock or modified stock -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHXrGEO4GWM
A number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM
Ahh, if he lets you sit in it, you have to promise not to pee in the seat.
I await your response . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
QuoteA number of years ago Jack Roush ran 330 inch motors in NASCAR restricter plate races and was very competitive as he was able to operate at higher RPM
Rex,
Are you sure this wasn’t just a ploy to get around the “gear rule”? The plate allows the same air consumption, but a small motor would consume at a higher rpm--ergo better top speed potential.
Mark, I think you are correct; my recollection of the Roush "small displacement" plate engines was before the gear rule.
Also, is this the same Andy Boone whose Corvette chassis I saw on the frame table at the Apex Humbuggery in the '70s?
If we have another Bonneville SpeedWeek, I'm sure we'll finally get caught up!
vic
Home Made Hot Tank!
Took today off of work - I planned this before I discovered that it was likely going to be the coldest day of the Winter, but plans are plans.
I need to get this second head down to Fordboy, but I didn't want to do him the discourtesy of bringing down yet another greasy mess. C&S has always welcomed my parts for cleaning/degreasing, but I came up with a rather slick solution.
I took one of my oil pan heaters -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN05161_zpsioo4eyum.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN05161_zpsioo4eyum.jpg.html)
Stuck it on the bottom of a steel wash basin, and filled it up with this odd, eco-friendly mineral spirits -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN05151_zpsycx2g2vu.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN05151_zpsycx2g2vu.jpg.html)
Between the solvent and the warmth, the grease and carbon deposits are just melting away.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN05141_zpsicglpiy8.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN05141_zpsicglpiy8.jpg.html)
Ah, a Morris Milk-bath!
There's a greasy old MGB head in the basement that will get the treatment next.
Here's the other part of your kit. :-D :-D :-D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EH6atYydBc
Pete
Here's the other part of your kit. :-D :-D :-D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EH6atYydBc
Pete
Did anybody watch through to the third video that comes on automatically? Rust removal with a battery charger and water.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Bob, the Pom-bomb nut that I worked for showed me some parts that had corroded beyond use.... " don't EVER wash any part unless you're about to use it" he said and he was right it is easy to get carried away, but I think you're safe....what is that stuff?
Did anybody watch through to the third video that comes on automatically? Rust removal with a battery charger and water.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Did anybody watch through to the third video that comes on automatically? Rust removal with a battery charger and water.If you are doing this one, don't use salt instead of the soda for conductor. Makes chlorine gas. Also not so good for you.
Doug :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
midget,
Spoke with Mark Adelizzi @ Flatout Gaskets this afternoon.
He awaits your unsullied head gasket, and will quote upon its' arrival.
Also, he can produce race quality intake & exhaust gaskets, should the need arise.
:cheers:
Fordboy
"C&C machine"... ? :?" Canadian and Coke "
... those Canooks...That would be 'Canuck''... courtesy of the Spelling police... :roll:
And if you want some really obscure trivia regarding Canada and more specifically Calgary, where I live, it's the city where Stu Hilborn, father of hot rod mechanical injection, was born. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
And if you want some really obscure trivia regarding Canada and more specifically Calgary, where I live, it's the city where Stu Hilborn, father of hot rod mechanical injection, was born. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
I did not know that, how old was he when he went to California?
I was amazed to learn that Canada wants to annex the Turks and Caicos Islands.
This was posted on Facebook. It's just humour, honest guys. :-D :-D :-D
http://vlocal.ca/canada-for-us-president-in-2016/
Pete
Milestone Alert!
5555 Replies?
What the hel*?
Whoops! Maybe I should just shut up!
:cheers:
NotsureIcanbequietboy
5555 views?
That's five thousand+ replies- views is well over a half million. :-o gag... cough...
Sticky-less, MM is hugely :mrgreen: more viewed than two other builds that have stickies. Just sayin'. 8-)
Mike
About the only thing I see that thermoplastic intake manifold being used for is as a template for the intake flange.
About the only thing I see that thermoplastic intake manifold being used for is as a template for the intake flange.
Is that the one with the plastic butterflies that fall off and or jam closed and don't work?. :-D
midget,
G & S confirms shipment of the valves via Her Majesty's Royal Mail.
Stuff should arrive sometime this year.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Sticky-less, MM is hugely :mrgreen: more viewed than two other builds that have stickies. Just sayin'. 8-)
Mike
It also helps to have a mantra. For years, it was to build -
"the fastest damned stock bodied, naturally aspirated, five-port, one liter Midget ever to hit the salt".
The first factory MG to run at Bonneville was the EX 135, a Dinkey model of which was given to me by Dr. Goggles. It sits next to the Midget's trophy and certificate on the built-in in the dining room.
We're looking for 135 horsepower.
We're looking for a 135 mph run.
135 is the mantra today - one number, three meanings.
... I know what I wrote...I sure didn't manage to read what you wrote- sorry. :oops:
With the investment in this engine would you not be better off using a dry sump system both to keep the oil in the crankcase to a minimum and to ensure the complete lubrication of the engine? :? :? :-D
Pete
There's a local guy that actually reproduces the plastic thermostat housing in Aluminium for that Rover motor.
Unfortunately we aren't friends anymore. :evil:
midget,
I volunteer my letter/number stamp sets for labeling the torque plate.
You supply the BFH. And the beer . . . . . . . :-D
I'm thinking that some sort of steel "spacers" will be required to use the ARP stud kit with the plate. I think that they will need to be fitted above the plate to compensate for the "grip length" of the studs.
:cheers:
Fordboy
midget,
I volunteer my letter/number stamp sets for labeling the torque plate.
You supply the BFH. And the beer . . . . . . . :-D
I'm thinking that some sort of steel "spacers" will be required to use the ARP stud kit with the plate. I think that they will need to be fitted above the plate to compensate for the "grip length" of the studs.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Correct, and I've got both the number stamps and the BFH.
And some sausage smoke infused Bock made specially in small batches for Gene's Sausage shop in Lincoln Square.
It's like bangers and mash in a bottle without the gravy.
Just to add to the straying that is common in this thread....
One of our local breweries made a bacon beer for bacon fest last year.... not really a crowd favorite... :|
OK back to business... fitting the new 61-135 bullet into the 61-99 chamber... :-D
Mark... my cousin has had a "Pig Valve" for the last dozen or so years... he doesn't feel like a cannibal when he consumes pig products.... he loves his pig parts :-D
:cheers:
Speaking of valves - I understand a shipment from Great Britain arrived below the cheddar curtain today, and are destined for the flow bench at T&T.
I'm bracing myself for some decisions, as we're expecting a large "data dump" any day now.
midget,
I volunteer my letter/number stamp sets for labeling the torque plate.
You supply the BFH. And the beer . . . . . . . :-D
I'm thinking that some sort of steel "spacers" will be required to use the ARP stud kit with the plate. I think that they will need to be fitted above the plate to compensate for the "grip length" of the studs.
:cheers:http://www.taverntrove.com/items/Henninger-Doppelbock-Labels-Henninger-Brauerei_51156.php
Fordboy
Correct, and I've got both the number stamps and the BFH.
And some sausage smoke infused Bock made specially in small batches for Gene's Sausage shop in Lincoln Square.
It's like bangers and mash in a bottle without the gravy.
Mmmmmm, Bock . . . . . . . . . :wink:
Soon to be doppelbock season . . . . . . . yummmm.
Can anybody over on the "Continent" confirm whether the Henniger (?) brewery is still in business? They used to produce a variety labeled Henniger 'DoppelBock' . . . . . . and it is the brew that set me on "the dark path" . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Darthvaderboy
midget,
I volunteer my letter/number stamp sets for labeling the torque plate.
You supply the BFH. And the beer . . . . . . . :-D
I'm thinking that some sort of steel "spacers" will be required to use the ARP stud kit with the plate. I think that they will need to be fitted above the plate to compensate for the "grip length" of the studs.
:cheers:http://www.taverntrove.com/items/Henninger-Doppelbock-Labels-Henninger-Brauerei_51156.php
Fordboy
Correct, and I've got both the number stamps and the BFH.
And some sausage smoke infused Bock made specially in small batches for Gene's Sausage shop in Lincoln Square.
It's like bangers and mash in a bottle without the gravy.
Mmmmmm, Bock . . . . . . . . . :wink:
Soon to be doppelbock season . . . . . . . yummmm.
Can anybody over on the "Continent" confirm whether the Henniger (?) brewery is still in business? They used to produce a variety labeled Henniger 'DoppelBock' . . . . . . and it is the brew that set me on "the dark path" . . . . . .
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Darthvaderboy
Stock exhaust and REC equivalent
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/051.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/051.jpg.html)
Stock intake and REC equivalent
(http://i1267.photobucket.com/albums/jj549/fordboy628/050.jpg) (http://s1267.photobucket.com/user/fordboy628/media/050.jpg.html)
Flowtestboy
midget,Flowtestboy: though the 4 valve may behave differently and this head may be different, a lot of people seem to think that exhaust ports are TOO BIG to start with and that continually hogging them out and putting in bigger valves is counter productive. Some of this is to allow bigger intake valves ( making the exhausts smaller that is) but also just that the flow dynamics of the exh port and attached header/exh pipe can benefit by the smaller port/matching pipe. The flow may increase on the bench but what does the HP do? this is of course the question. In your experience with similar configurations, which I know is extensive,what do you think the 8% difference might do on a running engine? (my comments above are primarily associated with 2 valve v8s so may not apply at all) Just asking. :-D ( methinks question answered with dyno time..... :evil:)
1/ The inlet ports are slightly better, ~ 1% or so. The shape of the curve is pretty much the same.
2/ The exhaust ports though are worse, ~ 8%. A significant difference.
I'm not yet sure why the exhausts vary so much. I ground these valves before testing, so the margins are thinner, but I'm not convinced that is the difference. I'm going to have to carefully measure the port's mcsa to try and get a handle on the difference. So even though these heads are the same casting number, they might be from differing "batch lots". I'm going to carefully check them over for production date codes, if any. This would be a good question for Steve, how to "decode" any production casting codes.
:cheers:
Flowtestboy
If you don't have a Serdi you ain't worth $^&t.!!!! :-D :cheers:
That's a machine.
midget,Flowtestboy: though the 4 valve may behave differently and this head may be different, a lot of people seem to think that exhaust ports are TOO BIG to start with and that continually hogging them out and putting in bigger valves is counter productive. Some of this is to allow bigger intake valves ( making the exhausts smaller that is) but also just that the flow dynamics of the exh port and attached header/exh pipe can benefit by the smaller port/matching pipe. The flow may increase on the bench but what does the HP do? this is of course the question. In your experience with similar configurations, which I know is extensive,what do you think the 8% difference might do on a running engine? (my comments above are primarily associated with 2 valve v8s so may not apply at all) Just asking. :-D ( methinks question answered with dyno time..... :evil:)
1/ The inlet ports are slightly better, ~ 1% or so. The shape of the curve is pretty much the same.
2/ The exhaust ports though are worse, ~ 8%. A significant difference.
I'm not yet sure why the exhausts vary so much. I ground these valves before testing, so the margins are thinner, but I'm not convinced that is the difference. I'm going to have to carefully measure the port's mcsa to try and get a handle on the difference. So even though these heads are the same casting number, they might be from differing "batch lots". I'm going to carefully check them over for production date codes, if any. This would be a good question for Steve, how to "decode" any production casting codes.
:cheers:
Flowtestboy
So, taking all this planning into account, the lower flowing head gives you an opportunity to -maybe- adjust the flow ratios/percentages more to your liking.
midget,
I got a flow test strategy mapped out in my head, along with the other voices . . . . . . . . .
Give me a call on my cell phone after 8am . . . . . . . I'll try to move your voice to the front of the line . . . . . .
:cheers:
Thinkyboy
Got it. How badly damaged are the cam bores? some folks may still have the tooling to rebore. I had to do that with my head after investing a bunch in it and finding the bores were significantly out of round and small to boot. What is the bore diameter? There are some cutters available that might do it. Not remembering the source right now but if you have the diameter, I'll dig some if you are interested.So, taking all this planning into account, the lower flowing head gives you an opportunity to -maybe- adjust the flow ratios/percentages more to your liking.
I see your idea, Jack. Yes, it could be that the anomalies inherent in the second head might play to our advantage, were it not for one thing. The cam bearing surface is damaged on the second head.
I was able to pick it up as cheaply as I did because of this problem.
The casting numbers are the same, and Mark's going to better suss out the reason for the differences.
Once the reason is determined, we'll need to be cautious with our experiments on the second head to be certain we'll be able to repeat/apply any shaping and sizing information to the original casting.
British castings . . . the more things change . . .
Got it. How badly damaged are the cam bores? some folks may still have the tooling to rebore. I had to do that with my head after investing a bunch in it and finding the bores were significantly out of round and small to boot. What is the bore diameter? There are some cutters available that might do it. Not remembering the source right now but if you have the diameter, I'll dig some if you are interested.So, taking all this planning into account, the lower flowing head gives you an opportunity to -maybe- adjust the flow ratios/percentages more to your liking.
I see your idea, Jack. Yes, it could be that the anomalies inherent in the second head might play to our advantage, were it not for one thing. The cam bearing surface is damaged on the second head.
I was able to pick it up as cheaply as I did because of this problem.
The casting numbers are the same, and Mark's going to better suss out the reason for the differences.
Once the reason is determined, we'll need to be cautious with our experiments on the second head to be certain we'll be able to repeat/apply any shaping and sizing information to the original casting.
British castings . . . the more things change . . .
Less IS more!
We have a friend who keeps saying "it's complicated".
I disagree. Truth is, it's simple.
The problem is that we're the ones complicating it! :wink:
Less IS more!
Well, I admit that you can: "Just bang 'em together and get 'em out the door."
In fact, I know several engine professionals who do just that. Some of their clients are happy, some are not. They respond by saying: "You can't please all of the people all of the time."
There are, however, alternate choices, depending on the results you want, and how much of a "deep thinker" you might want to be.
As I have mentioned a time or two previously: "It's complicated." "Both ways work." "More or less." "Eventually." Decide for yourself whether I put those comments in this order for a specific reason . . . . . . . . . .
"Ya pays yo money, and ya makes yo choice". . . . . . . . .
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Nolongeraboy
FWIW. At Speedweek in '71 I listened in on an oldtimer offering his thoughts on air and fuel flow for max performance to those of us waiting in line. Concluding he repeated emphatically "NEVER SACRIFICE FLOW VELOCITY FOR FLOW VOLUME!" Being of the age to know it all I had serious doubts as to the validity of his information and logic until the rider he was with proceeded to rip off a 150+ run on a 500 Kawi Mach 111 in a drag style frame with no streamlining. A run I thought was VERY stout for the bike at the time. A lesson quickly learned and never forgotten.
Ed
FWIW. At Speedweek in '71 I listened in on an oldtimer offering his thoughts on air and fuel flow for max performance to those of us waiting in line. Concluding he repeated emphatically "NEVER SACRIFICE FLOW VELOCITY FOR FLOW VOLUME!" Being of the age to know it all I had serious doubts as to the validity of his information and logic until the rider he was with proceeded to rip off a 150+ run on a 500 Kawi Mach 111 in a drag style frame with no streamlining. A run I thought was VERY stout for the bike at the time. A lesson quickly learned and never forgotten.
Ed
Ed,
I agree, in a very generalized way. Having seen many samples of engines with ports "too small" for the displacement/rpm, and the result is: ultra high flow velocity.
What I want to do is to have the ports sized to provide the flow required and also have a "good" velocity.
In very general terms, too small ports and the resultant ultra high velocity typically limits top end bhp.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Biggest lesson I learned that day many years ago was to always keep my eyes, ears, and mind open to learn at any time regardless any false doubts from first impressions. Hope I never lose that ability and can keep on learning.
Ed
Going COMPLETELY off topic . . . .
Going COMPLETELY off topic with this, other than the fact that by applying a combination of old and new technologies, a creative mind and talented machinist/electronics engineer can produce a remarkable piece of engineering . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gwZ2lHtG0Y
The craftsmanship is beyond reproach.
Are camshafts going to be one offs? If so bearing diameters could be made to suit.
Also, the new oil pump arrived. I'm going to take the old one apart and see if I can't make an adjustable pressure regulator for it.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN05341_zpswcwjrgrr.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN05341_zpswcwjrgrr.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN05351_zpsbzrx3kb4.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN05351_zpsbzrx3kb4.jpg.html)
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN05361_zpsmg77j3wj.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN05361_zpsmg77j3wj.jpg.html)
I love my MGB, but the MGA is just beautiful. I've got a friend here in the MG club who has been restoring a Twin Cam. Actually, a buddy of Fordboy's is doing the engine build. They have their challenges, and the engine had a poor reputation with respect to reliability, but when properly assembled and maintained, it's a sub-2 liter world beater.
It's the engine that MG used to set FIA records with Ken Miles, Phil Hill and Sterling Moss at Bonneville in the late 1950s. About a half dozen still stand.
Yes, and engine name - the name "Grenade" came out of a description of an A series engine that Peter Egan wrote about a number of years ago. Hands down, the greatest living automotive columnist in America.
I'm thinking "Carol", as in "Carol Kaye". One of the most prolific bass players in pop music, a member of "The Wrecking Crew", worked with Glen Campbell, Phil Spector, Frank Zappa.
I don't think anybody's ever nicknamed an engine after her, but she's certainly powered a number of records. :roll:
You'd better learn the chords:
Oh! Carol
I am but a fool
Darling, I love you
Though you treat me cruel
Though you treat me cruel
Would that be the infamous DCB?
We have a winner.Midget... I kinda like K1K.... maybe the engine will have a little kick....
We have TWO WINNERS!
K1K it is - I'll get to work on the graphics.You'd better learn the chords:
Oh! Carol
I am but a fool
Darling, I love you
Though you treat me cruel
Hadn't thought of that one - Sedaka is one of the greats, but when I hear the song "Carol", I think Chuck Berry or Keith Richards -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfj1O_fApvA
Keith openly admits he stole every lick Chuck ever wrote.
I'll do a partial assembly tonight and have it ready to check when the head arrives on Wednesday.
I'd like to avoid putting all of the liners in place, if I can help it. Seeing as you've set up one chamber for the proposed valves, which cylinder(s) will we be checking?
I'll charge up the borescope.
midget,
What is the chance of a trial fit up of the head/barrel(s)/block/ladders/studs/etc, sometime soon?
I'm looking to check the clearance of the o/size valves to the edge of the bore size of the barrels.
:cheers:
Fordboy
"Luncheon was at the local pub."
Surprise, surprise!! :-D :cheers:
"Luncheon was at the local pub."
Surprise, surprise!! :-D :cheers:
Would you believe me if I said all I drank was coffee?
:|
Well, it's a nice place, and they know how to keep secrets . . .
http://www.pub72.com/
"Luncheon was at the local pub."
Surprise, surprise!! :-D :cheers:
Would you believe me if I said all I drank was coffee?
:|
Well, it's a nice place, and they know how to keep secrets . . .
http://www.pub72.com/
"Luncheon was at the local pub."
Surprise, surprise!! :-D :cheers:
Works for me!"Luncheon was at the local pub."
Surprise, surprise!! :-D :cheers:
Jack,
Next time we all meet up, "local pub" will be the destination!!
One that serves prime Chicaga Italian Beef from da sout side.
:cheers:
Al'sbeefisthebestboy
Surprise, surprise!! :-D :cheers:
In my head this was read as Gomer Pyle.
I miss a good Chicago Italian Beef sandwich
vic
I miss a good Chicago Italian Beef sandwich
vic
I'd like mine dipped, please. :-D
Rover Wellington* – a favorite of the Midlands working class - typically served braised in a glycol/petroleum gravy or prepared in - or AS - a pressure cooker.
Bake in a preheated 225 degree oven on middle rack for 70 minutes until internal temperature reaches 180 F.
Serve with Old Speckled Hen.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN05702_zpsgletj6hv.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN05702_zpsgletj6hv.jpg.html)
Actually, I’m just checking for what kind of bore growth we’re seeing in the casting. This is to determine the proper OD for the sleeves we’re looking to have made. We’re done with the factory “slip-fit” arrangement.
Room temp 70 F
Longitude Width
1 3.314 3.313
2 3.314 3.315
3 3.315 3.315
4 3.314 3.314
Heated to 180 F Checked with a TruTemp #3519 instant read thermometer . . .
Longitude Width
1 3.322 3.320
2 3.320 3.321
3 3.320 3.321
4 3.321 3.320
Checked mid bore, but top-to-bottom never wavered more than .001
*not recommended for those with a low iron condition.
Nice work Chris.
Was the dial bore guage maintained at a controlled fixed temperature? :evil:
. . . AND, although Old Speckled Hen is always a good selection, since the main course is so light, doesn't that require something lighter?
Combined with the 1.5mm wide barrel seating area, it's no wonder the seal is marginal at 180 degrees F.
I'm thinking that some discussion with Darton is required about this.
That is ~ .006" growth on the Ø !!! Waaay more than I expected. I think it is unlikely that the barrel expands that much.
You may be right in thinking about an aluminum sleeve with a hard surface coating on the bore. Do they make such a thing?
Rex
Chris;
Any chance of borrowing a thermocouple for that measurement?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
You may be right in thinking about an aluminum sleeve with a hard surface coating on the bore. Do they make such a thing?
Rex
Nikasil
Perhaps: the concern about losing the tight block-to-sleeve fit with elevated temperature is somewhat offset by the fact that the heat generator (combustion and friction) is within the sleeve, and the sleeve may run significantly hotter than the block? I'm just pondering the fact that coolant temperature would typically be around 180, while temperatures in the cylinders would be much more than that.
My blown hemi has steel sleeves pressed into an aluminum block (only ~.002" interference fit) and I'm not aware of any block-to-sleeve movement problem, throughout a dozen seasons of competition (making approximately 900 HP). It does, however, use flanged sleeves, with the flanges sitting in counterbores in the decks- the O-ring grooves are in the flanges, so head torqueing clamps the sleeves in place- at least at their tops.
Gus cracked his cylinder and when I tried to cut it open for inspection the Nikasil wiped all the teeth off of my band saw, that stuff is hard.
Broken rings do the Nicasil in from our experience with 2 strokes.
Expensive to redo. Guys found it easier to just buy new barrels.
Driving my 356 Porsche to school in 1958 the Nikasil came off the cyls.
... Driving my 356 Porsche to school in 1958 the Nikasil came off the cyls...Wiki says: "Nikasil was introduced by Mahle in 1967". :?
(Before I was married) I was driving home from a country dance here in Qld., OZ, with my then girlfriend when the fanbelt in my Cooper S died. I asked her "Are you wearing pantyhose?" Answer "yes" I then said "Well you won't be in a minute- I'm afraid I need them" She fortunately thought it was a huge joke and happily volunteered them to the cause.
Broken rings do the Nicasil in from our experience with 2 strokes.
Expensive to redo. Guys found it easier to just buy new barrels.
Iirc there was a certain type of petrol sold in the UK in the 90's that also caused Nikasil to flake off as well? (High sulphur content?) so this may be something to look into if you are considering using this?
As if you don’t have anything else to do!
Thanks for that, John. Seems that coatings ALWAYS work in race engines, but the minute you try applying the process to mass production, corners get cut and the next thing you know, the "Inbox" at accounting is full of warranty claims, and all those beans they thought they could save get ground up with the coffee the engineers are drinking at 2:00 AM trying to figure out how to hold on to their jobs long enough to keep their pension.
I downloaded Sketchup this week - a little wonky, but it lets you turn your work into jpegs, so here's a preliminary iteration of the proposed cylinder liner - material yet to be determined.
It is sans flange flats -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/Preliminary%20Cylinder%20Liner_zpsgmu0rznj.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/Preliminary%20Cylinder%20Liner_zpsgmu0rznj.jpg.html)
As above, but 2014:
Mike
As I just know that Chris is on the verge of winning the Power Ball lotto, so based upon the potential of unlimited funds that will then be available, have you ever thought about making a 3/4 inch (19mm) thick dry deck plate that would separate the head from the block but most importantly provide a place where you could make some good 1/4 wide counter bores that you could then shrink the new aluminum sleeves into, plus it would strengthen the block and eliminate the somewhat minimalist head from having to do some structural work that it appears less than able to do.
Rex
Mark, et-al,
Just chiming in to say what a great thread this is!
Cheers,
Bob
As above, but 2014:
(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02653/Brigitte-Bardot_2653596k.jpg)
Mike
Going COMPLETELY off topic . . . .
Ahhhh . . . . . isn't that what we do?
Just sayin' . . . . .
:dhorse:
Fordboy
In light of this, the ARP 50 lb-ft spec, resulting in almost 12,000 lb of bolt load seems quite excessive. It is not clear how much consideration they may have given the system into which their part is fitted. It looks like they just specified a torque that gave their preferred 75% of yield on the stud. That much load might wreak havoc on the engine parts. Using a stud does have the advantage of possibly being able to pull the head without undoing the rest of the engine.
OK, now we’re looking a bit more realistic.
The 20nm torque would produce 3400 lb tension at about 43,000 psi shank stress--and probably take the best part of the squeeze out of the MLS gasket.
Then, superimposing the half-turn, we total up to about 7,600 lb bolt load and 96,000 psi shank stress--or somewhat less due to further compression of the gasket and all the aluminum in the stack. We can approximate that later.
The 2 x 180 degree turns would be about 11,800 lb and 149,000 psi which seems like a lot. Perhaps this was the spec for the early versions with a presumably composition (more compressive) head gasket, which would not result in reaching these numbers.
Mark, et-al,
Just chiming in to say what a great thread this is!
Cheers,
Bob
Hi Bob,
Welcome to Landracing. You will find this site much larger than the VRRF site, about 10 times the number of registered participants, and a distinct lack of "whiners". The "projects" are way more diverse and, I think, more interesting. Many of the participants have extensive "Build Diaries", in which their project is carefully documented, for all to view. I know you have spent some time on the midget's build previously. Might I also suggest that you spend a bit of time digging through some of the other long running "Build Diaries", the diversity, quality and fabrication is amazing. In addition, there is a spirit of helpful co-operation on this site, that I have not found elsewhere.
:cheers:
Fordboy
I have to geek out on this one - was there ever a better series than early Trans-Am?
https://twitter.com/MrDavidHobbs/status/709043433764212737
The Penske Camaro and Javelin and the Follmer Mustang. Only thing missing is Swede Savage's 'Cuda.
Mr. Hobbs has a Honda dealership here in Beerhaven - still hoping to talk him into driving the Midget . . .
midget,
Thursday is my weekly day @ "drag city". Call me on my cell after 9am.
:cheers:
Fordboy
midget,
Thursday is my weekly day @ "drag city". Call me on my cell after 9am.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Don and I will assume you're talking about T&T in Gurnee, and that you're not shoe shopping on St. Patrick's Day in Andersonville . . .
What alloy of aluminum do you like for casting cylinder heads,,, or billet alloy for C&C machining heads ???
Thinking I might try casting some heads for a small 175cc motorcycle..
Robert
Baron Race Team
midget,
Just poured the cast of the combustion chamber. 6 hour cure time for the mold. Photos later.
:cheers:
Fordboy
could you fill the vertical ends with weld to fill the chambers a bit, without shrouding valves excessively?
could you fill the vertical ends with weld to fill the chambers a bit, without shrouding valves excessively?
Probably, but if we can achieve ~ 14:1 CR without resorting to welding on a head that's tough to come by in the States, I'd prefer to go that route.
Wow - really nice cast, Mark! :cheers:
In other news, despite the Michigan State Charlatans (beaten twice by Iowa during the regular season), and the Purdue Boilermakers (the greatest non-credited bartending school in the Midwest) dropping games to a pair of Southern community junior colleges, my brackets are in remarkable shape!
I actually picked Yale and S. F. Austin, and in the first round, came away with 25 winners. I've never had a first round go that well.
The one that really hurt, though, was the Arizona loss.
I miss Lute Olson, but I'm cheering for North Carolina.
In other news, the Australian Gran Prix starts the 2016 F1 season tonight. Check your cable/whatever listings.
:cheers:
F1fanboy
That's 'cause they almost never score so as to distract you from the beer. :-D :cheers: Wayno
In other news, the Australian Gran Prix starts the 2016 F1 season tonight. Check your cable/whatever listings.
:cheers:
F1fanboy
If I want to watch a professional sporting event run by mobsters, I'll tune in soccer . . .
FB -
I'll call Noonan and figure out the procedure.
Rod length needs to be determined, unless we want to buy 'em unpunched and have them bored locally.
Part of what's really cool about being involved in this international sport is when friends from different walks of life can cross paths.
Brian Miller is the audio engineer for one of Milwaukee's most famous musical exports, the Violent Femmes. I've worked with and for Brian on and off for better than 20 years. I played at his wedding last October.
They're on tour this month in Australia, and with a few e-mails and text messages, I was able to make an introduction with the Melbourne Music Maven.
And they went guitar shopping . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Jamesstewart_zpssfmnzxuk.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Jamesstewart_zpssfmnzxuk.jpg.html)
ahh . . that Great Gretsch Sound . . .
MM- I am sure you know but there are for sure two and I think 3 different lengths of that type of injector as well as two different connector (maybe more) types. Be sure of your fuel rail placement to be sure they fit. The ones you show are the "long" type. The picture of the manifold suggests shorter. Also of course, the impedance must match your ECU. Some will run either high or low with switch/software/jumpers etc. High impedance more common with recent ECU types but obviously that needs attention. I am sure you know all this but worth reminder. Spray patterns can also be a factor to think about. Mark will have ideas about that I am sure. Injector placement as well. You mention has two bungs. You don't need two injectors for flow reasons and doubles might be tough to get small enough with the small engine anyway to control. But placement one hole or the other may have advantages. Dyno.... :-)
Part of what's really cool about being involved in this international sport is when friends from different walks of life can cross paths.
Brian Miller is the audio engineer for one of Milwaukee's most famous musical exports, the Violent Femmes. I've worked with and for Brian on and off for better than 20 years. I played at his wedding last October.
They're on tour this month in Australia, and with a few e-mails and text messages, I was able to make an introduction with the Melbourne Music Maven.
And they went guitar shopping . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Jamesstewart_zpssfmnzxuk.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Jamesstewart_zpssfmnzxuk.jpg.html)
ahh . . that Great Gretsch Sound . . .
Is Goggs flipping us off? :-o
Do you have ECU system picked out (putting cart before horse here as don't have a block yet....)
Well, as I've said, "It's all a grand experiment."
I've been fighting to find a properly sized set of throttle bodies from the motorcycle world. Stainless has offered up help, and I may still take him up on that, but what I'm discovering is that with bike TBs, a lot of the new stuff is actually bigger than what we're looking for, or set up in cast pairs, making a straight shot into the port on 88mm centers impossible.
Of course, Jenvey makes a kit for the K-series, but the units they make are intended for the 1800, and as we're trying to maintain good flow rate at almost half that capacity, finding the right part can sometimes be tough.
But I may have stumbled across it - I pulled the trigger on this set of 38 mm billet bodies, which are being drop-shipped below the cheddar curtain - hopefully on Thursday. Even the owner isn't sure who made them, but the size is right where we want to be -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/dragbike-motorcycle-throttle-bodys-38mm-/191826771636?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=lvFWxZEUnce1wGHl3AOQniQzsFk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
I'm hoping Mark can flow them, which will give us a definitive up-or-down of the thumb.
They're set up for dual 14mm injectors, and oddly enough, I received two intake manifolds with the K, complete with two sets of 14mm Bosch injectors. Had they said "Lucas", I'd have pitched them and not even tried to make them work, but these are used on a few other domestically available applications. If they're adequate, I'm inclined to try to make 'em work -
http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Injector-0280155884-Impedance-Brand/dp/B013H37X6A
At this point, I'm not sure I want to run dual injectors, and am inclined to simply plug the injector bung that won't be used, but this does give us options, provided they flow sufficiently to meet the demands of the K1K.
Midget I have a very very similar set, my set was made by RB Racing about 20 years ago, just be careful doing business with them........
Maybe I should go over there and offer to take their guinea pig K off their hands!
Chris, what's wrong with Lucas????. :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
I know you can be too big with carbs, but I didn't think you could be too big with TB's.... I always thought you wanted to get the largest charge of A/F the motor would pull in and always thought that was done with the least restriction.
I know.... YMMV :cheers:
Maybe I should go over there and offer to take their guinea pig K off their hands!
Keep calm and CARRY SPARES. :-D
It did have the smell of a canned response, but we kind of knew from the get-go we were heading into uncharted territory with this one.
We, me, Larry Forstall and his group, have tried bigger throttle bodies on a variety of Busa motors. The only motors tha bigger TBs have worked on were big, 1635&1700cc, motors with the latest Carpenter, big valve , head. And not all of those have responded well. I tried a set on my 1657cc, 15-1 compression motor and lost HP.
midget,
What were these supposed to fit? Are there any air horns or such to fit? Etc? Etc?
:cheers:
Fordboy
Z1 900, KZ1000, GPZ 1100 and GS1100 Suzuki's. Should be able to find stuff on fleabay.
I have 4 1980 G1 Kaws and a '82 1100 GPZ with factory FI
I have 4 1980 G1 Kaws and a '82 1100 GPZ with factory FI
More Kaws than a Wisconsin Dairy farm! :cheers:
Beware! :-o :-o :-o
I have 4 1980 G1 Kaws and a '82 1100 GPZ with factory FI
More Kaws than a Wisconsin Dairy farm! :cheers:
midget,
Injectors arrived on Saturday. They fit into the holes in the throttle bodies, but might not project far enough into the T/B. Some pics later.
I've got a plan for a flow bench adaptor, and I am assembling the bits. I will keep you informed on the progress for Thursday.
:cheers:
Workingflatoutboy
Or . . .
Mark, is it possible to machine the bosses down to place the injector at a proper height? :roll:
Or . . .This is of course an option. I considered that. The issue may become depending on exactly how the fuel rail is positioned and fixed in place, if moving the injector down (there is some leeway of course, depends on how much) if the fuel rail then interferes with something else or doesn't attach correctly. May then require custom fuel rail. As in fixing one problem causes another. And I am basing these observations on the ebay photo of the TB assembly. Having parts in hand and measurements makes the answer easy ,of course :)
Mark, is it possible to machine the bosses down to place the injector at a proper height? :roll:
Hi, Jack -Well of course!! :cheers:
Besides, it doesn't look "racey".
If I'm going to go through the headache of stuffing a fuel injected DOHC 16V Eurotrash motor under the bonnet, it damned well better look "racey" . . . :wink:
http://www.4wd.com/Jeep-Engine-Performance/Universal-Fuel-Rail.aspx?t_c=74&t_s=368&t_pt=4437&t_pn=ACL74734R-2&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping&emlprox=out&ppcfon=1&gp=1&gclid=Cj0KEQjwz-i3BRDtn53Z5Z7t4PUBEiQA23q2AMJcNot2EKtRERgMTjbM_C2zJKgVZAopaiKZ45OVaWsaAsLK8P8HAQ
Build your own...
midget,
Flatout advises that the head gaskets are finished and ready to be shipped.
I'll have them sent to the ranch.
OBOY!! Parts!!
:cheers:
Fordboy
I see what you mean. I recognise the character actors playing you and FordBoy -- but is that big guy - the one that's pontificating so onerously - Who is that supposed to be? :evil:
Izzat the similarity I'm supposed to see? :?
I'm seeing an eerie similarity between the K and the Jag V-12 at about 2:09 . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPxpPYLW4kw#t=130
I see what you mean. I recognise the character actors playing you and FordBoy -- but is that big guy - the one that's pontificating so onerously - Who is that supposed to be? :evil:
Izzat the similarity I'm supposed to see? :?
I'm seeing an eerie similarity between the K and the Jag V-12 at about 2:09 . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPxpPYLW4kw#t=130
A history lesson, were the electronics that good? Did that prediction come true?
And the combustion chamber is formed in the piston
to basically improve the combustion, it's a very lively combustion chamber
QuoteAnd the combustion chamber is formed in the piston
and what a good idea that turned out not to be......Quoteto basically improve the combustion, it's a very lively combustion chamber
Too right it's a very lively combustion chamber, it's moving up and down like a a a, piston
G
I'm gonna get a Dr. Pepper and make an attempt at awakening.
:cheers:
Notquiteawakeboy
... Like a lot of other "turd" engine designs, the Heron head can be made to work. The formula for success is:???
A/ LOTS of static compression
2/ Direct fuel injection
d/ and/or a "blower"...
... Like a lot of other "turd" engine designs, the Heron head can be made to work. The formula for success is:???
A/ LOTS of static compression
2/ Direct fuel injection
d/ and/or a "blower"...
I'm no expert on engine designs, but have no gripes about Heron-head configuration. The not-modern (1982) Moto Guzzi V50 I ride is far from a "turd". It doesn't have "LOTS of static compression" (less than 11:1), no direct fuel injection, and no blower, and doesn't use an inordinate amount of ignition timing. HP peaks at 49, with very usable torque across a wide band.
My other Heron-head vehicle (1917 Buick D35, 170 c.i. OHV four) doesn't make terrific power (at 4.4:1 C.R.) but I can't complain about its performance.
At 10- 2& 4 :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
At 10- 2& 4 :cheers:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Well played, Neil.
Oddly enough, a good mix with Triple Sec as well.
It's crazy what one drinks in college . . .
BMC also made an A-series diesel for marine applications.
What a fun project that could be.
Mark, you'd look good behind the wheel of a 1 liter Mini Ute rolling coal.
Fordboy said: "The large amounts of ignition lead required to achieve "reasonable" power output, reduced the mechanical efficiency of these examples." Any combustion chamber design that requires large amounts of ignition lead usually means inefficient combustion. That happens to include "true" hemis.
Rex
Billet head for a Harley? Or?
:cheers:
Fordboy
I'm no expert on engine designs, but have no gripes about Heron-head configuration. The not-modern (1982) Moto Guzzi V50 I ride is far from a "turd". It doesn't have "LOTS of static compression" (less than 11:1), no direct fuel injection, and no blower, and doesn't use an inordinate amount of ignition timing. HP peaks at 49, with very usable torque across a wide band.
I run a Heron head Moto Morini and Fordboy is correct�NOT a good design for racing�It is from the earliest days of OHV engine�
Robert
The Baron Race Team
so if you give them a rev, the skirt falls off
G
Billet head for a Harley? Or?
:cheers:
Fordboy
Close!
NHRA Pro Stock Buell.
More pictures here: http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=487488&page=4
Another chamber:
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa147/GREG560/10616227_266737110182737_4920783061117644923_n_zps681a75d8.jpg)
I'm going to say a Nascar Cup head, not sure which manufacturer, but I'm pretty sure it is not a Chevy.
:cheers:
Fordboy
How they treat the Hemi:
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1016924_158868477636268_410563243_n.jpg?oh=da9f08e77158f305f27697aa25cd6fb2&oe=578B0F03)
The dam in between helps with overscavenge issues.
midget,
Flatout advises that the head gaskets are finished and ready to be shipped.
I'll have them sent to the ranch.
OBOY!! Parts!!
:cheers:
Fordboy
Gaskets arrived yesterday @ 10 am. They looked good but I was frustrated about how to check them out. Offering them up to the LMS sample gasket seemed like they were "slightly shrunken", perhaps from the copying process.
Then I had a brilliant idea!!!! Offered one up to the cylinder head flow bench fixture! It's slightly tight on the locating dowels, but matches up to the bores pretty well. Gasket bore Ø measures 76.6mm on a 76.5mm spec so that is good. I'll also offer it up to the head, take a photo and post it later.
An "offer up" to the block will be the final check. Worst case scenario would be some "slight" relieving of the bore edge, something I've had to do before, so I'm OK with it.
Thanks to Mark Adelizzi and everyone @ Flatout Gaskets for producing a totally custom piece for an "orphan engine". Mark is a long time gasket guy, formerly with Fel-Pro. We opted to use his proprietary "coated solid copper" gasket material, because of the need to seal the water in the alloy Rover block. If you are using solid copper gaskets with a water jacket, you might give his product a try. Available in many thicknesses. Check Flatout Gasket's site:
https://www.flatoutgroup.com/Default.aspx
I did take some photos, but I'm just not up to fighting with PhotoBucket at the moment. I'll post them when I have more time.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Good stuff, Mark. Looks like you guys have a ton of room between the bores.
Here is a photo how we did my set-up:
(http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b542/hoffman900/IMG_4423_zps18e0pyya.jpg)
I assume you guys are doing the same?
Oh yeah, HAPPY FRIDAY!!
:cheers: (Hey! Where is my "beat a dead monkey imogee? ? ? ? ?)
Monkeylessboy
midget,
Just cleaned up a Cosworth head and installed some valves to mold a chamber for comparison to the special 'K'. Poured the molding compound at 09:30, pics later.
midget,
Just cleaned up a Cosworth head and installed some valves to mold a chamber for comparison to the special 'K'. Poured the molding compound at 09:30, pics later.
Fordboy, what model Cossie are you building?
John
Oh yeah, HAPPY FRIDAY!!
:cheers: (Hey! Where is my "beat a dead monkey imogee? ? ? ? ?)
Monkeylessboy
Deceased equestrian flailing is permissible, but I draw the line at Rhesus pieces.
I'll give the little fella kudos - at least he's trying to fix it, rather than simply replace it.
Apparently this all stems from the fact that you can't tell the difference between a Capuchin and a Rhesus, or a Franciscan and a Jesuit, or even a Trump and a Cruz . . . . . :roll:
I have a pile of Cosworth BDD's that I am cleaning up to flow test. Just using one as an example to show chamber design differences between Cosworth and Rover.
I never got over the sound they made at full song.
John
My first ride in a sports car was a Triumph TR3 in 1967. My dad and his buddies headed up to Road America in the '62 Dodge, and his friend with the TR left it behind in case Mom needed to run to the store - we were a one-car family at the time.
And we were also deemed too young to be left at home, so my two sisters were jammed up behind the seats, I rode in front, and my mom drove us all to the Hy-Vee and back for enough provisions to finish out the weekend.
I haven't been the same since.
And when I think back, despite having the stress of 3 kids in tow, my mom was smiling all the way.
Dad - I know you're following this - you need to get mom a TR for her birthday this August.
Oh my, you brought back fond memories of Road America. I first attended this track with Graham McRae and his converted F5000 to CanAm. Also, my first taste of "brats". A beautiful track that I eventually had a chance to race.
If I had my misspent youth to live over again, I'd misspend it in exactly the same way.
Hopefully this gets some of the juices flowing for you guys...
Hopefully this gets some of the juices flowing for you guys...
We have been a bit behind the curve -
Also received a small package from McMaster Carr today - the hardened washers to top off the Chevy piston rings we're using to hold the deck plate in place. T&T - I owe you guys lunch.
We're going to punish this li'l sombitch.
What I really love about a short stroke crank is strength you get from the overlap of material through the main journals and the crank journals - strength through architecture.
Yup . . .
It'll be a couple of weeks yet - Greg's making a trip up to his preferred balancing provider next week, and I'll make a trip up to gather both the new one and the old 1.4.
Oooooh . . . P A R T S ! ! !
Mark - anybody need me to drop off a crank rebuild in the next few weeks?
midget,
Well, it's lookin' more and more like you will be the final Bonneville I/GT record holder . . . . . . . . .
:cry:
Chris,
Don't forget you have friends on this side of the pond :-D :-D :-D
I hear ya, but I started Saturday morning watching the live streaming of the Nurburgrin 24 hour GT race.
Chris,
Don't forget you have friends on this side of the pond :-D :-D :-D
Plenty of room on our salt lake for you
G
Plenty of room on our salt lake for you
G
The car doesn't take up too much room. :roll:
Gairdner has always been in the cards, but given the questionability of Bonneville these last two years, it may well turn out to be sooner than later.
Of course, Gairdner has had a checkered history of weather related hit-or-miss events as well.
What's been stuck in my mind is Garry Orton and the Kiwi Cooper team who came over last year and had to board the horse for lack of a track. They were fortunate enough to find storage, which is a contingency I would want to have in place before I'd put it on a boat. God only knows what will happen if they can't run this year.
But first things first - can't race without an engine.
Any number of car museums that would happily display it for a year, once word got out I'm sure something/where could be found.
Doesn't look like I'll make the show this weekend. Finally got the Frankensprite up to temp, and it just kept spitting coolant. Maybe it's overfilled, but that will need to be sorted before I take it anywhere. But I will say this - when it finally gets up to temp and settles into an idle, it sure sounds sweet.
Doesn't look like I'll make the show this weekend. Finally got the Frankensprite up to temp, and it just kept spitting coolant. Maybe it's overfilled, but that will need to be sorted before I take it anywhere. But I will say this - when it finally gets up to temp and settles into an idle, it sure sounds sweet.
If the engine is regurgitating large amounts of coolant, you MAY need to run a "pressure bleed system" since the radiator is lower than the cylinder heads.
Without a pressure bleed system, any air trapped in the cooling system parks in the system at the highest point, usually the cylinder heads.
This is a recipe for disaster, AND, a HUGE towing bill . . . . . . . .
Caveat emptor
Doesn't look like I'll make the show this weekend. Finally got the Frankensprite up to temp, and it just kept spitting coolant. Maybe it's overfilled, but that will need to be sorted before I take it anywhere. But I will say this - when it finally gets up to temp and settles into an idle, it sure sounds sweet.
If the engine is regurgitating large amounts of coolant, you MAY need to run a "pressure bleed system" since the radiator is lower than the cylinder heads.
Without a pressure bleed system, any air trapped in the cooling system parks in the system at the highest point, usually the cylinder heads.
This is a recipe for disaster, AND, a HUGE towing bill . . . . . . . .
Caveat emptor
I may not know the exact meaning of Fordboys "pressure bleed system" but Dr Goggles solution is one. I believe some early (maybe most) vintage corvettes had similar issue and in my streamliner the water tank in the front of the car was significantly lower than the top of the head. Cured with a small pressure tank mounted on the firewall above the head. Had a small tube that I plumbed to the heater port on the water pump and thermostat housing so there was flow through the tank. Kept the head clear of bubbles and never had heating problem with the closed system in blown 2L engine. Maybe this sort of arrangement is what Mark is talking about.
The inlet manifold flow for "bleed" is a "iffey" proposition. "Iffey" cooling systems cost you peace of mind and MONEY. Why create another 'K' series cooling system/potential disaster?
Chris, your last picture tells a lot. If it's getting hot just running in the garage, it should. There's no air going through the rad. It's hard to tell from the picture if there's enough room for a fan attached to the water pump pulley. If so put one there with a full shroud sealed to the rad. If not move the electric fan onto the rad and use a full shroud sealed to the rad on that side. A fan on the water pump side should stick half out of the shroud for maximum efficiency. I'm not a huge fan of electric fans in front of the rad, especially for something that could be marginal with cooling because it's difficult to set them up efficiently.
Hope this helps. It's unfortunate that it probably involves considerable work.
Pete
Mark, Happy Father's Day!The inlet manifold flow for "bleed" is a "iffey" proposition. "Iffey" cooling systems cost you peace of mind and MONEY. Why create another 'K' series cooling system/potential disaster?
Tutorial time -
Of course, I don't want to create a headache. But what makes the intake manifold water flow - which is plumbed to the heads though fairly large passages at the top of both the front and the back of the heads - an "iffey" situation?
The top of the head(s) are currently sitting about 1 1/2" below the top of the radiator -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0713_zps9a7n1uzb.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0713_zps9a7n1uzb.jpg.html)
The top of the filler can - or header can - is 4 1/2" above the top of the intake manifold - which is well above the top of the heads and manifold, as well as the radiator -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0714_zps7cpbywqq.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0714_zps7cpbywqq.jpg.html)
A shot of the plumbing from above -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0715_zpskhv5hikh.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN0715_zpskhv5hikh.jpg.html)
The top of the radiator sits slightly above the heads, and the - okay, let's call it a "header tank" - I think I referred to it previously as a "catch can" - sits above everything else in the system.
Since I last reported on it, it hasn't been spitting, causing me to think that any air in the system has worked its way out, and seeing as I filled it while not running, expansion of the fluid may have occurred. Nevertheless, it seems to be running on the warm side.
How warm? :roll:
Kate's shopping, so I can borrow her candy thermometer . . . :wink:
Chris,
I must have given you the Top Fuel cam by mistake. OOPS.
Terry
This probably will lead to Scotland, Gibraltar, and Northern Ireland going their own ways. There are a lot of folks that would not mind rolling the clock back a week and voting a bit different. Of course, no one can predict the future when they drop in that ballot.
This probably will lead to Scotland, Gibraltar, and Northern Ireland going their own ways. There are a lot of folks that would not mind rolling the clock back a week and voting a bit different. Of course, no one can predict the future when they drop in that ballot.
You still need to make some decisions to finalize some dimensions so the rest of the parts can be specified and possibly ordered.
Any idea when your schedule will return to sanity?
You mentioned you were looking for a "high energy" lobe, quick open, and I'm thinking the ARK1444 might fall into that category. Shorter duration, but again, we've got the ridiculous R/S ratio facing us down, so the relative tdc and bdc timing is exaggerated. I'm going to use the Vizard calculator and see what I come up with. Seeing as we can now adjust the overlap - I already have the adjustable cam pulleys - do we have enough information to chose a grind? I'd like to pull the trigger before the mad dogs and Englishman come to their senses . . .
Piper grinds
Model Int Ex lift lift
ARK1444 276 276 .481 .479
ARKBP320M 290 280 .460 .440
ARK1227 280 280 .462 .460
"Maybe they also use 'rat' pistons from Hamlin . . . . . ."
Arrrggghhh.....................
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
So whaddaya want :evil: me to do? Post nekkid pictures of Nancy or something? Prevert!
I've got both of 'em. Which do you think I should post -=- the one showing Mark's profile? :evil:
EDIT: They both show Mark from the side. Now whaddeweye do?
So whaddaya want :evil: me to do? Post nekkid pictures of Nancy or something? Prevert!
So whaddaya want :evil: me to do? Post nekkid pictures of Nancy or something? Prevert!
Well.....how about the Pastie Pasties pic from several years ago? I REALLY, REALLY liked that one! :evil:
Gregg
End of food hijack. I officially declare it dead. :dhorse:
It's Gregg's fault, he started this gastronomic detour.
Hey, before we go totally Japanese here . . . . . . . :roll:
Ever hear back from Wossner on the pistons? ? ?
Yes, yes, I know you are totally buried @ your day gig . . . . . . . It's just so . . . . . . . INCONVENIENT!!
AND, BTW . . . Where is the "crankshaft porn" you promised weeks ago? ? ? ? ?
Some of us can't wait much longer to see something nekkid . . . . :roll: Our time is limited!! If you aren't going to deliver, us old guys will have to petition Tony to update his avatar . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Mark, to the best of my knowledge - Marquette's a hotbed of brewing. Our favorite place is the Ore Dock but there are probly a half-dozen or more hanging around here. Nancy is definitely NOT a hop-head -- preferring beers that aren't hoppy. Whatever that means. But one of her guys works there and she gets free beer, so it's not all that bad. I drink orange pop when I'm there.
I quit drinking a good bunch of 24 hours ago - and craft beers didn't exist then 'cept in basements and back porches (to my knowledge). About the only "different" beer from Miller High Life and Blatz -- was the bock beer they'd push out the doors when they cleaned the barrels in the spring. And I tasted that crap once and I swore off anything that wasn't yellow, mildly fizzy and alcoholic -- in the way of beers, at least.
Mark, that place is right next to Woodberry kitchen. Have you been there? A favorite of ours when we are eating in town. Varied, eclectic menu, farm to table stuff.
Mark, that place is right next to Woodberry kitchen. Have you been there? A favorite of ours when we are eating in town. Varied, eclectic menu, farm to table stuff.
Even though we have been to Union Craft a couple of times, I was unaware of Woodberry kitchen. We will check it out next time we are in town. We are planning on a Baltimore foray sometime in the early fall, I'll keep you in the loop and maybe we can catch up.
:cheers:
Ahhh - the long-lost video - Thanks, Nick!
Don, I know that Mel up at C&S stocks the Wix racing filters, and they've got the PH8A equivalent there.
Upon examination, I'm going to take the full blame on this failure for two reasons.
A - I cheaped out on the fittings - should have used a name brand - and I know better than this, but was getting penny-wise and pound-foolish.
B - I remember putting the hoses together and kinda sensing that when I was tightening them up to the hose, something didn't feel the same as when I was cinching up the Aeroquip fittings for the Midget. It was one of those moments when you go, "Hmmm . . . well it is a different brand, it's not a race piece, but it'll be fine for a street car".
Chris:
A few years back I had a line of fittings that I offered on my website. I met the company owner at PRI and the quality "seemed" good. I made a modest order of a few hundred fittings. By the way, the markup on fittings is about 300%. I decided before I sold them I should do some test. I decided to re-plumb the 2100. What I found was about 25% of the fittings bubbled in a pressure test. Not at the hose connections but at the seal on the swivel connection, an o-ring and a wire pin that is pressed in to make and seal the swivel connection. When I called the company owner he said he was surprised and it my be my installation technique. That did not make sense because the leaks were coming from the part I did not assemble. I put them up on the website for a few months but only sold a hand full. As time when on I found that the fittings that I used that did not initially leak would leak after sitting for a few months. I would ask questions on the forums about fittings, manufacturer and pricing. The comment that stuck in my mind, and may have come from a LR forum member, I can't remember, was " I am not putting a Chinese fitting on my $30,000 engine!" Now I don't have a $30k motor but my motor cost a lot of money for me. A few days later I boxed up all of my Chinese fittings and sold them on ebay, with full disclosure for a little over $300 for about $3,000 in wholesale fittings. Here is what I learned for my $2,700:
Go with a name brand manufacturer, there is no substitute for quality AN fittings and hose.
Do not mix fittings and hoses from different manufacturers. When you measure the different brands precisely you will notice variations in sizes that may cause the hose to blow off the fitting under pressure and heat cycles.
Invest in a set of AN pressure test fittings, one plug and one air fitting, Speedway Motors has a 3AN to 12AN set for about $50. Pressure test every hose in a bucket of water. It will save you a ton of grief and clean up.
Buy a good set of AN assemble wrenches, there are two AN sizes for each hose, the AN# for the fitting and the AN for the hose end, usually it is a little larger. The AN crescent wrench will work but if you crank down on the fitting the crescent's jaws can spread and slip
Go ahead and spend the $14 for the aluminum vice jaws they will make assembly easier and more reliable.
Air gap between the AN swivel and hose and should be about 1/16th on most hose ends
I found water is a good hose lube but white lithium grease will help keep the fittings from gualing on assembly
Invest in a good AN Hose Cutter, Speedway Motors has one for around $30... best money I ever spent for AN hoses
This information may be remedial for most on this forum but it may help someone learn from my mistakes.
That's my 2 cents.
BR
So that $30.00 I saved, divided by the time it's going to take to rip the front end apart, clean up and fix this mess, brings my hourly wage for this project to about $2.25 an hour, which is about what I was making at Hardees when I was in High School, and leaves my shoes and clothes equally covered in grease and oil.
Plus I've got to fork over for new fittings and oil lines.
The hellofitall is that I know better - I just forget to remember.
Thank you for "manning-up" and telling us so that we all have a chance to learn from your misfortune. :-D
Pom Rod issue.
Yeeessshhh . . . what a mess.
Okay, better in the garage than on the street.
After blowing out the ignition module and receiving a warranty replacement, and with Kate's help, I got the ignition properly dialed in tonight. Got it to idle, and after it warmed up a tad, I gave it a stiff stab of the throttle - and Mount Vesuvius erupts.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07181_zps32yqaqdr.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07181_zps32yqaqdr.jpg.html)
Blew the hose right off the fitting. I killed the ignition instantly - nothing's damaged but my ego - but now I need to tear the whole front end off again.
This is going to go on the back burner for the time being. Mark's pushing on the K, I concur, and this will simply have to wait.
Until then, I'll contact the public works department in Herculaneum and see what waste reclamation permits I need to clean up the mess . . .
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07171_zpsptblajai.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07171_zpsptblajai.jpg.html)
Well, the kitty litter is still doing its job, and in light of a couple 105 degree heat index days, one of which I had to work an outdoor wedding in a suit with a dew point of 68 degrees and no breeze, I elected to head to the basement today.
Decided to drop the crank into the K to mock things up a bit.
Fits and turns with old bearings, and we'll need to get the cylinder liners in place before we do any alinement honing, but Rody seems to have nailed it again -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN07211_zpszt3myjia.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN07211_zpszt3myjia.jpg.html)
The flange extends a ways from the back of the block, but we'll be running a 1/2" adapter plate to the transmission.
The racing 1275 flywheel fits nicely -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN07201_zpsr8n6ql3s.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN07201_zpsr8n6ql3s.jpg.html)
While the offer-up plate hasn't been bored for the flange - we may need to make adjustments to lay-over and need to retain our center axis - slipping the transmission up to the back of the block starts to put together a visual as to how it's going to look.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN07191_zpslwaovk1x.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN07191_zpslwaovk1x.jpg.html)
Chris, re: photo of block and trans..
There is a series of four angled “spigots” on the side of the block. What are they?
For what is going to be a 1 liter engine with a target of 135 hp, between the EN40B crank, 5 main bearings, ARP long studs and a perimeter secured girdle, I'm thinking we should be able to keep the bottom end together.
All, It would be awesome if you can get 120 horses out of that thing. Shazam had a session on the chassis dyno yesterday. 70 hp at the wheels (est. 80 at flywheel). 1.3 hp/cu in. With my gearing, and our results at various mile events, I'm optimistic this should get us over 122.5! We'll see in about 2 weeks! I can only dream to have 120 hp at the flywheel.
Wow Chris a 400 page build on a car that is labelled a "midget"! Not only do we know each and every mechanical detail of the Midget's journey but you and others shared the mental ping pong of trying to figure out engineering ideas that were never meant to be compatible. Then you package it all up in a car half the size of most, tow it across the US, have the nerve to drive it and bring the MG back to the US. But for me, the all time great entry is when you flip the midget over on it's cage to work on the chassis. You just can't beat the convenience of a removable top!
Thanks for keeping us informed and entertained.
BR
All, It would be awesome if you can get 120 horses out of that thing. Shazam had a session on the chassis dyno yesterday. 70 hp at the wheels (est. 80 at flywheel). 1.3 hp/cu in. With my gearing, and our results at various mile events, I'm optimistic this should get us over 122.5! We'll see in about 2 weeks! I can only dream to have 120 hp at the flywheel.
Yup, no questioning Chris' bravery and commitment!!!!.
I get so afraid just reading the posts. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Yup, no questioning Chris' bravery and commitment!!!!.
I get so afraid just reading the posts. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
The only thing we have to fear is - beer itself.
Especially if you've ever seen Mark's refrigerator.
I stock an ever changing variety of refreshing, fermented beverages. All pre-chilled. What's not to like? I do admit a fondness for dark and malty varieties however, and I am currently in the midst of a multi-year 3 Floyds homage. If you are a "Hop Head", or a fan of "Lite whatever", you will be disappointed in my selections. GET OVER IT, if for no other reason than the price is right.
My forays south of the Cheddar Curtain require restraint, bravery and courage.
And I will remind you -
THAT man is FEARLESS! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Are you still whingeing about the "Lobotomy Bock" sampling? Yes, I was disappointed as well, but I think your IQ remains: unaffected.
I guess a trip to see Chris and Mark should go on my list :cheers:
I guess a trip to see Chris and Mark should go on my list :cheers:
Open arms and open bottles await you upon your arrival. :cheers:
I guess a trip to see Chris and Mark should go on my list :cheers:
Open arms and open bottles await you upon your arrival. :cheers:
midget,
Any progress on piston?
:dhorse:
F/B
I'm still staring at the boxed-up piston mold, and I have yet to mock up the front end of the K. I've got to get the Midget presentable for the Milwaukee Concours d'Elegance on the 27th - and before you get to thinking I'm puttin' on airs, keep in mind that elegance in Milwaukee is an undented beer can.
Any progress on piston?
Are you ill? Overworked? Over-Shattered?
https://www.facebook.com/shatteredmilwaukee/info/?entry_point=page_nav_about_item&tab=page_info
Or are you just "Wisconsinbly"
Inquiring minds want to know . . . . . .
:cheers:
Gettingconcernedboy
Chris, PM sent, but you just answered my question, dang, no Speedweek for you. :x
Looks pastylicious. :cheers: Hang in there. Wayno
Looks pastylicious. :cheers: Hang in there. Wayno
Darned near as good as the fridge-ribs at the Rodge Mahal! :cheers:
Wayno - see you on the 11th.
Chris, Like Mark said, glad you and Kate are OK!
Also, thanks for the pic of the pastie. One of our destinations on this trip is Michigan as Lynda has never been there. After we leave Montana we will come the very northern route through ND, MN and end up in Marquette, MI where we will feast on pasties at Jean Kays.
Your pic let Lynda see what these delicious concoctions are!
Gregg
Mark, After Marquette, it's on to Sault St. Marie and then down to the Mighty Mac and lower MI.
166.046 in an oversized go-kart! :-o :-o :-o
Congrats to them! Was this a qualifying run?
Gregg
166.046 in an oversized go-kart! :-o :-o :-o
Congrats to them! Was this a qualifying run?
Gregg
Indeed - fast enough to require the laundry - which I find absolutely comical.
There was some technical/class issue with the 157 run, and that run was disallowed, so they just said "screw it", got back in the queue, and tagged on an extra 9!
2 years in storage outside of Lancaster, jump off a plane, trailer it to Wendover and roll a downrun 22 mph faster than the old record.
Considering the block they started with, I'm impressed.
Indeed - fast enough to require the laundry - which I find absolutely comical.
Looks like an A+ block, still using the standard oil pump (?!) - That surprises me a bit, but there's probably not a lot of room to hang a dry sump off to the side.
Indeed, but they did have a problem on their backup run. Between the 2 and the 3, they lost oil pressure, so their attempt average was based between the 1 and the 2. Still came in with a 152 average on a 144, but it would have made a huge statement if it had held together through the 3, and they could have averaged the 166 down run speed through the 3, rather than basing it on the 160.
They mentioned they thought the oil pump gave up the ghost, and Mark, I was right, they WERE running a stock oil pump. I'm not sure how the rest of the engine was plumbed with the BMW head, but there was no report of external leakage. Post mortem will tell the tale.
midget,
Uhhh, not to raise a touchy subject, but, how many days until World of Speed 2017?
The "Special K" awaits . . . . . . .
:cheers:
Antsyboy
Front of block measurement: 7.459" (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155" = 7.9435" (201.76mm)
Rear of block measurement: 7.456" (-.531" dia ball) + 1.0155" = 7.9405" (201.69mm)
So for design and machining purposes finished deck height is going to be 201.50mm (7.933").
This allows a slight amount to be surfaced off the block to "square" it up, unless the block needs to be align honed. If that is the case we may need to reduce that deck height dimension by a small amount, say an additional .005"/.010" (.127mm/.254mm)
This is about the point where dimensions can start to be "fixed" and the "build geometry" locked in, so parts can start to be ordered.
No rule infraction for dry sump in Altered.
Chris --
If you ask them to join in the discussion on landracing.com, it'll take 'til October or so for them to catch up with the 400+ pages. Don't scare them away.
Stan
The irony of all of this is that I met Mark through a correspondence via E-bay regarding a BMC factory experimental dry sump system he had for sale. I was fascinated.
It drives off of a separate gear on the otherwise standard camshaft toward the front of the block, and is quite ingenious in its layout. Seeing as Project '64 is not running a distributor, but maintains a stock camshaft to drive the factory oil pump, I see no reason they couldn't use the stock distributor drive to operate an external pump as a supplement to the standard internal pump. Use the stock pump for the bottom end, and the separate pump to take care of the head. This could then direct the oil flow toward the valves to take away heat, which would be huge in a 370 hp turbocharged 1 liter.
But again, regarding the Project '64, this is all speculation.
I think I'm going to try to contact Gary and the guys and invite them to join this discussion. It's a fascinating build, and we seem to have a lot of A-series LSR interest generated here. I'm dying to know what the post mortem tells them.
Drysump Boy,
If you find a underemployed engineer to design it I know a masochist machinist who will machine it.
Terry
What'd the masochist say to the sadist?
Hurt me, please -- hurt me.
And the sadist replied -- "No, I won't!"
Drysump Boy,
If you find a underemployed engineer to design it I know a masochist machinist who will machine it.
Terry
What'd the masochist say to the sadist?
Hurt me, please -- hurt me.
And the sadist replied -- "No, I won't!"
Mark,
Are you guys looking to pull a lot of crankcase vacuum and run real thin rings? YES. At this stage, Chris still wants to try to run wet sump. I'm trying to convince him to run dry sump.
You guys should have some seriously stable bores in this thing. Well, that's the plan anyway. A lot is going to depend on how stable the case assembly (re: block) turns out to be.
There is a good thread on Yellowbullet where Chris Uratchko built a R0X engine with 4.130 bore peaking at 9200rpm. 6 stage Dailey pump and pulling 25inHg.
.6mm x .7mm x 3mm ring pack. Yeah, I've seen the thread. It is a "NASCAR" style setup, with which I am VERY familiar . . . . . .
Mark,
Are you guys looking to pull a lot of crankcase vacuum and run real thin rings? YES. At this stage, Chris still wants to try to run wet sump. I'm trying to convince him to run dry sump.
You guys should have some seriously stable bores in this thing. Well, that's the plan anyway. A lot is going to depend on how stable the case assembly (re: block) turns out to be.
There is a good thread on Yellowbullet where Chris Uratchko built a R0X engine with 4.130 bore peaking at 9200rpm. 6 stage Dailey pump and pulling 25inHg.
.6mm x .7mm x 3mm ring pack. Yeah, I've seen the thread. It is a "NASCAR" style setup, with which I am VERY familiar . . . . . .
Bob,
What have you been up to?
:cheers:
Mark
Imagine that Thames with an aluminum V8 :mrgreen:
Mike
Imagine that Thames with an aluminum V8 :mrgreen:
Mike
As soon as I get my hands on Jim Clark's Lotus, I'll put in a bid on the truck. And Mike, I'll let you and Don argue over who gets to drive either vehicle from Beerhaven to Wendover.
Imagine that Thames with an aluminum V8 :mrgreen:
Mike
. . . rolling into Salt Lake City from the east, the Midget on the bed, smoke rolling out from where the brakes used to be . . .
I still need to get the Bugeye on the road, guys!
If you run a wet sump and pull a very high case vacuum you are asking for bearing failure from having the oil pump cavitate from insufficient inlet pressure. Remember that the only thing that makes oil go into the pump is the vacuum made by the pump, the height of the oil above the pump inlet and the case pressure. If you draw a case vacuum of -25 in Hg then there will no pressure available to force the oil into the pump and it will cavitate! If you want case vacuum then you MUST use a dry sump system. I know that the drag racers get away with it but they only load the engine for a few seconds not minutes, and they still have bearing problems.
Rex
I'll be at Elmo tomorrow - will post pics when I can.
Mrs. Midget LOVES wine country . . .
California Chrispy
Chris,
This may be to late for your West Coast trip but if you happen to come north to the "real" wine country, Napa and Sonoma counties, I happen to live in the wine country and would certainly welcome a visit and we can try a few (of the literally hundreds!) of local wineries. Drop me an e mail, rexschimmera@gmail.com or call my cell, 707-484-5721.
Rex
Back to the 1KK -
I've got the offer-up ready to drop in and check for clearance -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN09001_zpsgdcf2nul.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN09001_zpsgdcf2nul.jpg.html)
If we're to maintain the stock starter, we'll be carving a bit off the block and definitely removing this motor mount outcropping -
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/1KK/DSCN09011_zpsi80kcpcg.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/1KK/DSCN09011_zpsi80kcpcg.jpg.html)
The Lexan adapter lets us see behind and through things. When we've determined everything is correct, we'll cut one from steel or aluminum. I'm thinking steel - we're loosing almost 100 lbs over the front wheels, and a steel plate, setting toward the back of the engine bay, would likely be a good place to shift some weight.
Hoping to get this figured out and ship the block next week to Steve Demirjian for the resleeve - he holds several of Darton's patents. While it's likely either C&S or T&T could do the work locally, I like the idea of someone who has specialized in this kind of work for 30 years actually doing the work.
How big is the stock starter? Would a more readily available Hitachi style starter work? 2 bolt flange and a small gear. Very compact gear driven permanent magnet motor.
Something to think about when you see a '26 roadster on the salt after flying into SLC over Nebraska.
Now if they could only do something about that smell . . .
It's an acquired taste, Stainless. :roll:
Mark, et-al,
Figured you guys would enjoy this:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMky5ObAp0I/?taken-by=power_technik
Dailey modular dry sump pan / manifold for a 1500cc Ford.
Mark, et-al,
Figured you guys would enjoy this:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BMky5ObAp0I/?taken-by=power_technik
Dailey modular dry sump pan / manifold for a 1500cc Ford.
Yes, Dailey Engineering is "state of the art" or, perhaps, slightly beyond. His stuff is used in top line Nascar (both, Toyota and Roush-Yates, hmmmm . . . . .) and F1 engines. He is on a par with Cosworth Components and Autoverdi units from Europe.
Needless to say, this sort of quality comes at a price . . . . . . but that did not stop one of my clients from using a complete Dailey Engineering system on his 632 cubic inch BB Chevy match race engine with EFI, ESC, and nitrous . . . . . . .
The power numbers are BIG, and private . . . . . . . (Sorry, no photos either . . . . .)
Something to think about is how the very efficient removal of the oil "cloud" from the inside of the crankcase affects other aspects of the engine's engineering. I want to caution anyone who thinks this might be a "one issue" modification. Remember the law of "unintended consequences" . . . . .
:cheers:
The first 100 hp are the cheapest. I don't know what this engine puts out now, but if it's developed to the point that they're chasing down power with a piece like this, you're probably looking at the last 2-3 hp.
And those last 2-3 are probably as costly as they are beautiful.
That is a very serious looking piece for what's likely going into an amateur race team's car.
Big $$ but it's a beautiful thing to see what an effort like that can do with a vintage platform.
and when you keep trying to spin big motors in to the rpm range of little motors-- longevity just seems to be fleeting. :-o
This is an argument I win every time . . . . . .
:cheers:
Someone said "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". I think your quote from Einstein may apply... 8-) :cheers:
Otherwise I agree completely......
But... but... but... that's what we do in LSR.... work to find the failure point of our motors.... hopefully it is somewhere beyond the record we are trying to break, and it only happens when we try to best our own record.
We have experience with that... don't get me wrong, we don't want to make a doorstop out of a motor, but we don't really want to leave too many MPH on the table either.
We have some dyno numbers that seem to equate with Bockscar speeds... my limited dyno experience has already consumed an engine that I was pushing to a number :cry: but I told myself it was better to blow it here than 1200 miles away.... not near as much fun, but better. :|
:cheers:
Bob - I get it - absolutely.
There is a romance to going all in, and a "devil take the hindquarters" approach.
Legends are seldom made in the controlled environment of a white-room engine development shop, but rather with a pile of "iffy" parts being bolted together in the bathtub on the 2nd floor of a stinky Motel 6 at 4:30 in the morning.
But there's also a huge satisfaction in taking it off the trailer, making a pass, taking it to impound, backing it up the next morning, and drinking beer for the rest of the week.
I think Mark will agree with me on this - we're getting too old to let preventable mechanical failures stand in the way of our beer drinking.
It's all about priorities . . . :cheers:
MM said: "...in the bathtub on the 2nd floor of a stinky Motel 6 at 4:30 in the morning."
Bob - I get it - absolutely.
But there's also a huge satisfaction in taking it off the trailer, making a pass, taking it to impound, backing it up the next morning, and drinking beer for the rest of the week.
It's all about priorities . . . :cheers:
bugster,
This appears to be right up your alley . . . . . .
http://bugeyeguy.com/category/bugeyes-for-sale
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
bugster,
This appears to be right up your alley . . . . . .
http://bugeyeguy.com/category/bugeyes-for-sale
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
They're kinda like recreational boats - Everybody wants one . . . until they own one . . . :wink:
bugster,
This appears to be right up your alley . . . . . .
http://bugeyeguy.com/category/bugeyes-for-sale
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
They're kinda like recreational boats - Everybody wants one . . . until they own one . . . :wink:
...and they all have been named... :roll:
FB: re: cam testing setup..
Looks nice, but without knowing exactly how it works, and being unable to grasp it and get a feel of its rigidity, the skinny prong that serves as a rest stop for the (I assume) angular encoder looks kind of flexible. Is it stiff enough to accurately resolve the angular positions? What sort of angular resolution is obtained? Does the “encoder” also drive rotation of the cam or is it rotated manually?
On the other end, how about a little description of the cam “follower” assembly, below the LVDT? Looks like some sort of physical contacter. Is it “sharp” or radiused, and will it give a true profile if radiused? Can lobe phase angles also be determined by moving it to another cam?
Just curious.
Dang, I didn’t expect such a treatise, but appreciate it and figure it will be informative/instructive for everybody.
To produce valve lift results, does the software include facilities for specifying lash, rocker pivot location, rocker ratio/arm length etc., or is all that a secondary evaluation?
2 cams arrived at an engine shop. A regular cam and a "daddy" cam. BUT, on the dyno, both cams make the same bhp in the test engine. WTF? ? ? ?
After the cam "proctology", both cams: SPEC OUT THE SAME . . . . . . Hmmmm . . . . . . . Response of cam manufacturer: WHOOPS.
Yeah, WHOOPS . . . . . .
Confucius say: "Trust, but VERIFY." Or :dhorse:
:cheers:
Tiredofwaitingforyoutopostboy
... Two cams arrived at an engine shop. A regular cam and a "daddy" cam. BUT, on the dyno, both cams make the same bhp in the test engine. WTF? ? ? ?Umm... so... two cams measure the same and perform the same. What am I missing here? Was the word 'not' intended to appear somewhere in this example?
After the cam "proctology", both cams: SPEC OUT THE SAME . . . . . . Hmmmm . . . . . . . Response of cam manufacturer: WHOOPS...
... Two cams arrived at an engine shop. A regular cam and a "daddy" cam. BUT, on the dyno, both cams make the same bhp in the test engine. WTF? ? ? ?Umm... so... two cams measure the same and perform the same. What am I missing here? Was the word 'not' intended to appear somewhere in this example?
After the cam "proctology", both cams: SPEC OUT THE SAME . . . . . . Hmmmm . . . . . . . Response of cam manufacturer: WHOOPS...
Anyhoo... thanks for the rundown on cam checking machines.
midget,
Uhhhh, might you be persuaded to post something to your thread?
I mean, you know, IF IT'S NOT TOO MUCH TROUBLE!!!!
Sickandcrankyboy
After blowing out the ignition module and receiving a warranty replacement, and with Kate's help, I got the ignition properly dialed in tonight. Got it to idle, and after it warmed up a tad, I gave it a stiff stab of the throttle - and Mount Vesuvius erupts.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07181_zps32yqaqdr.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07181_zps32yqaqdr.jpg.html)
Blew the hose right off the fitting. I killed the ignition instantly - nothing's damaged but my ego - but now I need to tear the whole front end off again.
(http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo58/milwaukeemidget/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07171_zpsptblajai.jpg) (http://s361.photobucket.com/user/milwaukeemidget/media/Pom%20Rod/DSCN07171_zpsptblajai.jpg.html)
Most oil filters flow with the center being the outlet. Check your lines to make sure the flow is in the proper direction, if not, it is a simple fix.
jpm, THANK YOU FOR THAT POST. I'm realizing now that I came a lot closer to a serious health threatening condition than anybody with reasonable intelligence should allow.
I've suffered no more than a headache, and wound up catching the problem before it became major.
This particular thread on this forum draws an inordinate amount of attention for what we're actually doing.
If my experience and your post helps prevent somebody else from serious injury, then the countless BS posts regarding beer, Bears, Packers, Cubs, Hawkeyes and Britcrap will have been worth it.
Thanks!
Chris
Pointy lobes, aren't they?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Pointy lobes, aren't they?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Pointy lobes, aren't they?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
I'm reminded of Bettie Page . . .
Without nipples they're really pointless! :-o :-D
:? You talkin' lift or duration?
Mike
I want to say it's a 34 mm bucket - well sized. Kibblewhite makes one that will work, but it might make more sense to order a valve kit "in toto" from Britain.
I'm ready to pull the trigger on new cams. I've got new Piper adjustable cam sprockets already, I'm just trying to determine which grind to go with.
Even with the Rover head in stock form, we're getting more flow at .250 than we got at .450 on the Grenade. If we do nothing with the head, I'm thinking either one of these might be a good choice - and keeping in mind that these applications are intended for the 1.8 - both are Piper grinds -
ARKBP285M
Int - Exh -
276° 0.440″ 276° 0.438″
34‑62 64‑32
104° 106°
ARKBP300M
Int - Exh -
280° 0.442 280° 0.440″
34-66 70-30
104° 106°
Mark is going to do some limited prep on the ports - if we could anticipate what to expect from that work, I'd order right now. But I'd like to see what the flow curve on the modified head looks like before I load up the MasterCard.
That said, I'm kinda pancaking to get this thing back on the front burner. Even with the shorter of the two cam choices, I'm certain we'll be able to make a lot more power than with the Grenade - and likely with an engine that isn't quite as stressed or peaky.
Mark, am I right that we need to be thinking torque first? It seems the least of our concerns will be getting it to rev.
One other thought - Piper makes a few Hydraulic HP grinds as well. Here's one -
288° 288°
0.445″
0.445″
40‑68
70‑38
104° 106°
In a 1.8 - the power band claim is 2500 - 7500.
Mark, what would you expect the maximum RPM from a hydraulic setup might be?
Given my propensity for 9500 RPM hole shots, a little bit of physical limiting on the part of the engine itself might not be a bad deal . . .
Your engine is real similar to mine in many ways. It is easy to over cam these four valve engines where the cams work efficiently at an rpm beyond what is desirable. The knockers that worked best in mine during the virtual modeling have net lifts equal to the flow capacity of the ports with as narrow duration as available grinds allowed. I had my radical race cams ground to milder profiles.
Hoffman- that plot appears to show a lot of reversion at the valve on both IO and IC? Also, how do you correlate those plots to your goal of 300fps + or - as stated?
Chris,
Watched the vid and did not see ANY smokey, tire churning burn outs!! What gives?
Rex
'Fence Posts' on 55th Street :-o :-o :-o :-o :-oDigital fence posts, I'm sure. :-D Wayno
Fordboy,
Did you get my PM?
Terry
There are a lot of years of flow bench data on the Triumph. It is possible for me to fairly accurately extrapolate and interpolate flow vs lift curves at 28 inches. A bunch of late nights were spent modeling various valve sizes and port flows. Real big valves and lots of low lift flow hurt performance. It reduced the trapped mass 'cause too much flow was getting past the valves at the wrong time. These times are when the engine cannot trap and compress the mixture or it blows off cylinder pressure too early.
The best valve size combo had an intake mach maximum between .5 and .6. These are valve sizes only 1mm larger than standard. The flow curves with well developed port shapes that gave good flow at mid and high lifts worked best. They supply the engine with mixture when it has high demand.
That surprised me. I always thought more is better. It seems just enough is best.
Hoffman- that plot appears to show a lot of reversion at the valve on both IO and IC? Also, how do you correlate those plots to your goal of 300fps + or - as stated?
That is a the valve seat. As you can see, moving up into the throat then just a little over an inch into the port, it drops off.
I think one thing to keep in mind is what good low-lift flow can and can't do. Low lift flow will make the engine think it has more duration than it does (remember, seat-to-seat duration is what the engine really sees).
Another way of looking at it is this, especially as it relates to a 2 valve engine:
To get a certain amount of lift you need a certain amount of duration. The velocity and acceleration of the lifter is going to be dictated by type and diameter. There is a fixed value. Yo can only move the lifter so fast. Since we only have a certain amount of time (duration) to create lift, this will ultimately be the limiting factor. Spintron development and spring technology have allowed us to do more and be less abusive to the valvetrain, but ultimately we're still limited.
Take for example the NASCAR flat tappet change to roller lifters. I asked Jay Wiles of Hendricks if they would gain any more power. His response was no because they were already at the acceleration limit of what a spring could do. The flat tappet cams used high rocker ratios (2:1+). The rollers, while allowing for more aggressive profiles will need less rocker ratio to keep the valve acceleration equal to that. The net is there was really no change in the actual valve lift profile as the engine sees it. Anyway that is a tangent.
So getting back to velocity. You could convert it back mathematically, but the point to illustrate is what is important in the valve lift equation. There is a lot to be said about velocity - just look at what Larry Meaux, Darin Morgan, Chad Speier, Larry Widmer, Curtis Boggs, and many, many others have written over the years. Just to rant, it cracks me up when people talk about drag racers hogging the ports out. Nope, not the good ones. The only difference is that a drag race engine will likely rev a little higher, so the port cross section will be a little bigger, but the same physics apply. This is why when you see a cylinder head that is sized properly and produces peak power at say 7500rpm on a 1.8L engine, when put on a 1.0L engine will want to peak at 9500rpm. Do the math and you'll see why. Piston cfm demand drives the whole engine equation and everything else is sized from there.
Metaphorical fence posts - an old Iowa expression, meaning "shittinandagittin".'Fence Posts' on 55th Street :-o :-o :-o :-o :-oDigital fence posts, I'm sure. :-D Wayno
Nice plate! :cheers:
Mike
Beerhaven still have any of those old 'fenders-must-cover-tires' laws? :|
Envy? not me---I am just thinking what a big smile my buddy Podunk is going to have when he sees this post---his dream come to fruition---going through the gears making noise, smiles and thumbs up----just happens to have a different owner-driver but the little beast lives :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: to the both of you!!!!!!!!!!!
Fun! :cheers:
Stock front brakes?
Mike
That looks like a fun ride, Chris. Thanks for posting that video. I couldn't figure out how to post a video here either, so I posted my first fire-up on YouTube, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybEkGde0Te8
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Now I know who stole our frame paint........
Now I know who stole our frame paint........
Goggs, it's all part of the evil plan. In order for you to finish the SOS, you'll need to stop by Neil's house for a quick touch-up of the chassis, after which you can drop it off for inspection at Bonneville . . . :wink:
My agent told me today that Hagerty is no more. He told me the name of the company who bought them out, but I already forgot it. Perhaps their offerings might change now?
Chris, you and Kate obviously live too mellow a life. Learn to drive fast and swerve a lot -- that'll probably be enough to get some insurance claims for youse guys. :cheers:
We're driving from home to Chicago tomorrow, then Indy Saturday, then home Sunday. I suspect we'll see our share of goofy drivers, some wearing cheeseheads, some not.But they'll be there, for sure.
Going to see Bumpus at The Emporium on Milwaukee Ave tomorrow night. C U there.
So, what's the status of the K motor? Been couple months and many pages since any comment?
Actually, the factory set up uses rubber retaining straps. The attachment points weren't included when Terry fabbed up the housing brackets, but brackets are still there on the chassis, the parts are available through Moss, and I know how to drill holes.
You were 3 miles from my house and you didn't stop in for a brew and to show off. I'm very disappointed.
My friends - this is a case of walking before one drinks.
The car already draws way more attention than its diminutive size warrants, I'm poked up out of it like Fred Gwynne, it's louder than most Harleys, and the last thing I need is to have to recite the "LMNOP"s in front of Sheriff David Clark's posse.
People die in that jail, the impound lot isn't covered, the Sprite doesn't have a top, and if I were to put Kate through the headache of trying to fetch it from the county grounds, she'd probably leave me incarcerated in order to drive home the point that our wedding vows made no mention of asanitySanty (?) clause.
Let's get it to the point that it doesn't shake the steering wheel out of my hands. I'm actually looking forward to some junkets.
Don - Mark - Jefferson show on the 29th-30th?
When I drove my Arkley SS, with 225/50/13 tires, a backed off steering wheel nut eliminated a lot of steering wheel shimmy. Never re-tightened it in 20 years of street an slalom driving.
When I drove my Arkley SS, with 225/50/13 tires, a backed off steering wheel nut eliminated a lot of steering wheel shimmy. Never re-tightened it in 20 years of street an slalom driving.
So, Don - are you implying that there is a loose nut at the wheel?
:roll:
That was an easy layup . . .
http://www.madisonclassics.com/
A big swap meet - might be an opportunity to clear out that storage space - maybe Tommy might have some pieces he'd want to consign.
I'm going to take the Frankensprite and see if there's any interest. I have no idea what it's worth at this point.
You DO know the focus is: ALL CHEVROLETS right? ? ?
You DO know the focus is: ALL CHEVROLETS right? ? ?
Perfect - you can finally sell those turbo Corvair rods and camber compensators.
But think about it - you'd have the only booth on the grounds with "Vintage Factory Lotus and Jaguar castings"!
Brought to you by "Lowest Common Denominator Promotions".
Not sure about Frankensprite, but my Arkley SS did.
Yeah, well most Chevy guys think Lotuses are flowers and Jaguars are South American cats . . . . . . .
Yeah, well most Chevy guys think Lotuses are flowers and Jaguars are South American cats . . . . . . .
Yeah, those Chevy guys from Midland Texas had no idea what they were doing!
Yeah, well most Chevy guys think Lotuses are flowers and Jaguars are South American cats . . . . . . .
Yeah, those Chevy guys from Midland Texas had no idea what they were doing!
Yeah, well most Chevy guys think Lotuses are flowers and Jaguars are South American cats . . . . . . .
Yeah, those Chevy guys from Midland Texas had no idea what they were doing!
I think Jim Hall is probably about as close to Colin Chapman as America ever got.
Question ... What Car Designer won in F-1 driving a car he designed and built himself?
Dan Gurney
I'm delighted to hear that I wasn't the only Arkley user. POF593G was mine; horrific by modern standards but a bucket of fun 30 years ago. Loose steering sounds like a bad idea, though, surely? Mine didn't really go where it was pointed until I'd freshened all the wearable bits of front suspension.
F
Question ... What Car Designer won in F-1 driving a car he designed and built himself?
Dan Gurney
Thanks for the Gurney concurences, gentlemen. Especially you, Mark. Apex Humbuggery United! :cheers:
vic
Question ... What Car Designer won in F-1 driving a car he designed and built himself?
Dan Gurney
I believe Jack Brabham and Bruce McLaren also fall into this category.
Apex Humbuggery United! :cheers:
vic
Question ... What Car Designer won in F-1 driving a car he designed and built himself?
Dan Gurney
Jack Brabham
Local Guy
G
I have direct experience here, and so will midget, once he decides to "fix" the front end geometry of the lowered MM.
:cheers:
I found project mantis lotus elise on facebook a while ago, not knowing he is running a rover k series engine. He just posted his engine pieces/plan for making it live around 400+hp with a turbo. If you havent heard of it, its a place for engine knowledge, if you have, then i am old hat...
I have direct experience here, and so will midget, once he decides to "fix" the front end geometry of the lowered MM.
:cheers:
I've been toying with the Sparky approach of a pair of custom Podunk wheels with motorcycle racing tires - narrower and shorter, spindle mounted - which will get the geometry back to a reasonable location and keep the low ride height, yet maintain enough suspension travel that the return road doesn't hammer the bump stops.
I always thought motorsickle tars were meant to lean in turns, not stay bolt upright. Hence, be totally unsuitable for cars. I am willing to be wrong. In fact, I'd love to be wrong because I'd like to run them on the Tank. :roll: Wayno
Happy Milwaukee beer week, Chris. :cheers: Prosit.
Fordboy - the Jefferson Express pulls out of the Milwaukee Station at 7:00. Punch your ticket?
C'mon, it's a fun guy-toy and I'm always looking for excuses to play with it.
I didn't count total cylinders in the fleet - but I gotta show you a machine that lives in our barn that's got more than the common number of cylinders. Not great photos. . .but what the heck, when's the last time you saw a Mercury-Kiekhafer two cylinder engine powering a Disston 36" cutter bar with a dead man's handle on the far end?
"Dirtmovingboy", did I miss your call to visit with the Bobcat and move dirt with you? C'mon, it's a fun guy-toy and I'm always looking for excuses to play with it.
Need a project that I've managed to ignore for most of my life?
Need a project that I've managed to ignore for most of my life?
Everybody should take over someone else's languishing project once in their lives.
It sounds like a really good place to sit out and grill steaks and veggie burgers and drink beer while you plan the next item for the Midget. :-D :-D :-D
Pete
I know Doc's intelligent enough to have done it himself, but I also know he's wise enough to hand it off to someone else.
Disguise the trailer to look and function as a deck?
Jack said: "...Disguise the trailer to look and function as a deck?"
A bar here did it -- sorta. It's a popular live music venue that, during nice weather, has live outdoor music Friday evenings. Complaints were made so the city enforced the zoning and told 'em they couldn't have a permanent outdoor stage. Solution?
Build a stage and bolt wheels to either side - so that it COULD be moved to prove a point, but isn't really moveable.
Converse: Build a trailer that can be parked solidly for deck-style use.
Q.E.D! :lol:
Chris, I'm sure you already considered this, but do you have the room to store the Midget on the trailer in the garage?
Don
Trailer will be sold in the blink of an eye, at that price... :-)
I'm sure you'll regret this later. :-(
I know Doc's intelligent enough to have done it himself, but I also know he's wise enough to hand it off to someone else.
man, I hope the Colonel doesn't see that..... :roll:
I'd guess a single guy could fool-hardedly imagine such a venture.
You'd probably be 150 MPH below that ol' Triumph front-wheel driver.
Chris;
To paraphrase your icon, "Keep Calm and Carry Spare Underwear" :-D
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Speaking of Fordboy, is he on holiday or something? I sent him an email early in the week and he has not responded. PM if there is any issue.
Jack
Chris, I think you must have missed a parameter on the motor program, to get to 160HP with 1L, I think you will need at least .320 to get there. :-D That is about the lift and HP for the hi HP Suzy's
I close my eyes, and I hear the rev limiter cutting in and out . . .
Hey, the modified sports record is only 150. Piece of cake. :cheers:
Can't even watch the tach move.
Congratulations Shorty!!!
So . . . is it cheating if NOBODY'S PAYING ATTENTION?
The Milwaukee and Great Lakes MG Motor Group, aka, the MG3 club, of which I am a proud member, put together a display at the "Show and Glow by the Lake", the first day of the Annual 2-day Milwaukee Concourse d'Elegance program. 18 Post-war MG Sports cars were on display in chronological order, and the Midget was selected as the centerpiece of the display.
Most people weren't aware that there were that many rust-free MGs in the entire state.
A large enough group or club can request a separate category for awards. We had enough MGs that the President of the club solicited and received a category for MGs, and due to the fact that I went through the hassle of trailering a vehicle and setting up a display recognizing MG's history on the salt, he graciously insisted that the nod go to the Midget. Yeah, it has a degree of cache due to its record, but I can certainly say there were better examples of MGs in the circle.
Next year, I'm personally going to lobby to see that Dan Donahue's Midget takes the trophy - he bought it while stationed in London in 1965, shipped it stateside, and has been driving it ever since.
So we're all sitting back in our lawn chairs, sipping beer, chatting with visitors, answering questions, and I heard over the intercom about the "People's Choice Award".
Good lord, I thought, I'd been there for three hours, and I didn't even know there was a ballot available.
I looked through my presenter's package - nothing there.
So I went up to registration, and asked about the ballots. "Yeah, the volunteers forgot to include them with the presenters envelopes", I was told.
So I said, "Geez, I've got about 25 club members and their significant others over here with the MG club. Can I take some ballots over for them?"
I was handed an appropriate number of ballots, I thanked the lady, and I went back to the group.
They needed to fill out their name, a valid e-mail address, and a car number.
I went around the group, asked each member if they wanted a ballot, and handed one to everyone who said they did.
"And if it's no skin off of your nose", I said, "I'd appreciate a vote for number 513."
The balloting ended at 2:00, and at 3:00, the announcement was made to the category trophy winners to drive their cars up for the presentations.
I didn't know they did this.
It's kind of hard to do with the Midget, at least at this point in time. First off, the master cylinder is disconnected, and secondly, the engine is currently in a crate at a DHL international shipping facility, waiting to be carted of to its new owner in Derbyshire, England.
As I approached the podium, I explained the situation, and they handed me this really swell plaque - "First in Class" - took my picture with a celebrity weatherman from Green Bay, and I climbed down from the stage.
I was then told by one of the officials not to "run off too far".
The final trophy of the day was the "People's Choice Award".
I'm looking out at a sea of iconic cars - a fist full of Packards, a Stutz Bearcat, a 1969 Daytona Charger wing car, a sea of Jaguars and Porsches, a dozen Ferraris - better than 300 entries - and they want me to make an acceptance speech . . .
I acknowledged the MG3 club and members for their support, but I also was able to shine a light on MG's history in setting land speed records, and the company's history at Bonneville.
And truth be told, it's a history I'm proud to be trading on.
But like any owner of a British car is quick to point out, they can be damned embarrassing when they neither run, nor stop.
(http://DSCN1250.JPG)
ELECTIONEERING WITHIN 100 FEET OF THE POLLING PLACE? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ?
So . . . is it cheating if NOBODY'S PAYING ATTENTION?(http://DSCN1250.JPG)
Chris,
I noticed that Gary is there with his Shazam Racing Honda Insight in I/GT, from the photos on BangShift.com.
He was in line on Saturday. Did he get a run in? Any idea how it is running?
Hoping he has got it sorted and is competitive.
:cheers:
I spoke with a bit. Engine changes have about 86 at wheels
I think heard 122 in quarter. 117 in mile
I know has been in line couple more times but I have no times.
Met Gary and Katlyn - hope I spelled that right. Been doing some smart development, and found a cam grinder in New Zealand with some expertise with the three cylinder. I think they got 4 passes in, but the motor went soft on Katlyn, and they decided to take it home intact.
Here's what I'd like to see - Tom Donny getting his 1 liter on track, Gary getting the Honda sorted, a having the Midget ready for next year. 3 cars in a category that sat fallow for 22 years could make for a great story.
Sir Tippsalot of Beerhaven,
The best plan would be to order up the new "bowstrings" and "arrows" required for the "All Comers Meet of 2018" as early as possible.
Rumor has it the prize for 2018 will be a "Golden Arrow" . . . . . . . . .
One might need to get a "little pissy" with "arrow maker" for timely delivery . . . . . . . . .
:cheers: :dhorse: :cheers:
Squireboy
Concord, are you suggesting that re-sleeved K-Series engine blocks migrate?
I'm merely stating what is obvious to me: We will need to have the block by October at the latest to be at Speed Week in 2018.
Some sort of commitment to timely delivery would be appropriate. If timely delivery can not be assured, you have a difficult decision to make.
I understand the situation, but, no matter how good you are, waiting for open ended delivery, while other work displaces your position in the work flow line, is not correct.
As always: Your wallet = your choice. But, time is a factor here.
M
I need to catch up on some of your development!So do I, Trent . . . So do I.
midget,
I already started the book. I'm too familiar with "the glazed look" Alda describes. New research on the human brain is finding that a large portion of the population has difficulty with, OR, is "unable" to: understand collegiate level science.
I need to catch up on some of your development!
I need to catch up on some of your development!So do I, Trent . . . So do I.
midget,
I already started the book. I'm too familiar with "the glazed look" Alda describes. New research on the human brain is finding that a large portion of the population has difficulty with, OR, is "unable" to: understand collegiate level science.
Have you ever heard Brian Greene, the String Theory scientist, speak to a general audience?
It's fascinating - he's engaging, he puts it across, and you "get it". You're listening, and your head is nodding in agreement - you're comprehending.
But then he stops talking, the applause dies down, and if you can accurately voice 1/4 of what he spent 20 minutes explaining, you're doing pretty good.
It's that 25% that one needs to build on. That's the foundation.
I'll let you decide whether to share camshaft and valve train info.
And you think that is going to work with "Jack Yates Jr"? ! ? ! ? :roll:
And you think that is going to work with "Jack Yates Jr"? ! ? ! ? :roll:
Ahh, yes.
Folks, this is in reference to a gentleman who didn't quite understand the implications of an oiling gallery, . . . hmm . . ., let's call it a self inflicted aneurysm.
The telltale symptom of such an automotive subarachnoid hemorrhage is an accute headache.
It's a rare disease, in that the disease itself is not contagious per se, but anyone working on the patient, or even worse, dealing with the person with medical power of attorney over said patient, may develop the primary symptom.
But hey, at least the stroker crank fits! :wink:
I need to catch up on some of your development!I need to catch up on some of your development!So do I, Trent . . . So do I.
OK, to catch up on Thursday's decisions & developments:
Dimensions now fixed:
A/ Bore Ø 75.5 mm
2/ Stroke 55.5 mm
d/ Hd gasket bore 76.8 mm
Dimensions, etc nearly finalized:
B/ Deck height ~201.5 mm
3/ Rod length ~143.75 mm
e/ Piston C/height ~30 mm
z/ Static C/R 13.5 to 14.0
I'll let you decide whether to share camshaft and valve train info.
:cheers: :dhorse: :cheers:
Just so there is no confusion between me and "Jack Yates Jr." . . . . . . . . .
Just so there is no confusion between me and "Jack Yates Jr." . . . . . . . . .
JYJ enterprises? The inventor of the SBF garden sprinkler? :roll:
OK, I've searched the web and did not find anything that connected a Jack Yates JR. to the subject matter you have referenced.
Being a bit curious I would appreciate some enlightenment.
It is nice seeing the burner on this "K" project being turned up a couple notches. :cheers:
Thanks, Don
It's a bit of an inside joke. Don't want to out the guy too much, but he's polishing a turd.
:cheers: couldn't stop myself after Johnboy scrapped the car...
Chris, minor sidetrack from your attempt to create massive HP from your collection of English scrap aluminum and steel... :roll: :wink:
Mark, my guess is that Chris is sure you are the "Anne Sullivan" of motors... :cheers:
Hey Chris, did Frankensprite make it out and back?
Mark, my guess is that Chris is sure you are the "Anne Sullivan" of motors... :cheers:
Mark, my guess is that Chris is sure you are the "Anne Sullivan" of motors... :cheers:
In many ways, you are correct - except the first word I uttered was "BEER!"
WOW page 426, such a good number :cheers: could you put a hemi in it :roll:
HowtofititinboyApropos, after last night.
Not sure yet as to what to do for a radiator.
Not sure yet as to what to do for a radiator.
Chris, that is the easiest part.... 5.E.3 paragraph 3.... but you don't have to use it, you might consider a 5 gal. water tank... or using the original fuel tank as a water tank.... you are already outside the box, don't claw your way back in :-o
:cheers:
Having done this once before on the Midget, and more recently, wiring and plumbing the Frankensprite, I have a better idea as to how to plan ahead on this aspect of the project.
It's often tedious, and while my results have always been essentially functional, I really want to tidy it up this time - proper labels - consistent color coding throughout.
Not sure yet as to what to do for a radiator.
Chris, that is the easiest part.... 5.E.3 paragraph 3.... but you don't have to use it, you might consider a 5 gal. water tank... or using the original fuel tank as a water tank.... you are already outside the box, don't claw your way back in :-o
:cheers:
THAT idea has a lot of merit. The fuel tank holds 8 gallons, and seeing as I'm going EFI this time around, I should probably be looking at a fuel cell with an integral fuel pump. Rules don't permit me to remove the fuel tank, but there's no reason I can't fill it with water.
Not that I'm busting 'em loose, but an extra 65 pounds over the rear wheels likely wouldn't hurt, either.
. . . you might consider a 5 gal. water tank...
I am doing good. Nothing broken except the car. Just resting for a few days.
Johnboy
Fordboy -
I've got the "Availability/Price/Shipping" question e-mailed to REC for the valves. I also asked about collets and compatibility with the Piper spring caps. Hoping they respond faster than some other suppliers . . . :|
I may just have them drop-shipped to T&T, if it's okay with Tom and Lenny.
The heck with that "Hemi" page.
NOW we're on the "Rat" page.
:wink:
The heck with that "Hemi" page.
NOW we're on the "Rat" page.
:wink:
Or a Side Oiler Page!
midget,
Any word on the re-calibration of my breaker bar from your drummer??
:cheers:
Needmybreakerbarfixedboy
Pie-eyed - and seeing double in Twinkie Town. Bauhaus Brew Labs - a nice facility for a wedding and reception -
http://bauhausbrewlabs.com/
Gemütlichkeit!
Just got back - the B performed flawlessly - the drive was the equal of the PCH last year in the rented Miata, without the fear of mudslides, but requiring the constant horizon scanning of the horizon to prevent Bambi-cide.
G&S order and the Elise Spares orders are both due on Thursday - I went ahead and arranged to have them delivered to my workplace. I've got the Piper cam wheels down stairs along with the cam-lock to hold everything in place for changing out the head.
Back to work tomorrow - I have to onboard a new salesman first thing, then tabulate the results of an employee survey conducted on Friday.
Mark - you be around Thursday night?
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy . . . :lol:
I've got cams, I've got followers, I've got springs, I've got valves, keepers, gaskets, shims . . .
Santa lives in Britain, and Christmas came early!
To Elise Spares and G&S Valves! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
On my wall is a certificate of appreciation I received for my presentation, and Dick signed it with green ink. It was a tradition that Cecil Kimber started - using green ink.
Thank you, Dr. Knudson. You were a light that even Lord Lucas couldn't extinguish. :cheers:
Chris has "threatened" to document all his BMC "experience" and "experiments" in a "book" format . . . . . . .
Chris has "threatened" to document all his BMC "experience" and "experiments" in a "book" format . . . . . . .
The loss of the photobucket account was catastrophic, but I still have the photos on my hard drive, and rather than reconstructing the build diary, I'm thinking that since half of the story is already written, this would likely be a good opportunity to cut and paste, edit, and self publish.
In short, I haven't lost enough money on the Midget, yet . . .
I'll let you know when I'm speaking at Barnes and Noble, and I'll see that the rider includes Three Floyds, Ritz Crackers and Merkt's Sharp Cheddar Cheese Spread. :wink:
Note to BMC fans . . . . . . British and otherwise . . . . . . . .
One of the pre "Runoffs" projects is a limited prep BMC 1275. The flow testing is done, the dyno testing will take place this week.
As soon as the project is completed, I'm going to post some real world numbers for Limited Prep heads Vs full race Vs Stock air flow.
I'm also going to post some comparison graphs of of the dyno output Vs the Grenade Vs F/prod 1275's Vs unrestricted 1275 GT/L engines.
Should be . . . . . . interesting. And it will get us through the 'K' development lull . . . . . . . .
QuoteNote to BMC fans . . . . . . British and otherwise . . . . . . . .
One of the pre "Runoffs" projects is a limited prep BMC 1275. The flow testing is done, the dyno testing will take place this week.
As soon as the project is completed, I'm going to post some real world numbers for Limited Prep heads Vs full race Vs Stock air flow.
I'm also going to post some comparison graphs of of the dyno output Vs the Grenade Vs F/prod 1275's Vs unrestricted 1275 GT/L engines.
Should be . . . . . . interesting. And it will get us through the 'K' development lull . . . . . . . .
I have a few ideas for the LP stuff, but it would take some $$ to pull off. Camshaft development seems to be the most lacking.
Bob, there is NO question in my mind that you are correct in thinking that the cam development could lead to further gains. If I get an opportunity to "spin the cam grind for data", be assured I will.
On the valve size, using the lightest valves that you can legally use and a corresponding light valve spring / retainer package will allow lighter valve spring pressures. This should have the effect of reducing flex in the stock rocker arm (as required by rules). I have doubts that under running conditions, the stock rocker is actually transmitting the lobe profile to the valve. Obviously, to do this right, would require some Spintron time.
Yet another reason I like LSR. You'll spend as much time, effort and money developing a dog as you would building a truly usable, purpose built motor, with fewer rules. Don't get me wrong - I recognize the challenge - the discipline -but if the vintage guys think they're saving money by building AKC certified canines, they're sorely mistaken.
Muts rule.
Chris,
The issue with the stock rockers is flex, not so much friction. I've seen people weld the top of the rockers, but not sure how that fits in the "material may not be added to any part".
QuoteBob, there is NO question in my mind that you are correct in thinking that the cam development could lead to further gains. If I get an opportunity to "spin the cam grind for data", be assured I will.
And no doubt here you will!
My thoughts with the SCCA LP stuff:
Friction, friction, friction. And you know where most of the friction in an engine comes from ;)
Aftermarket billet cam - I believe cam journal sizes are unregulated, so installing the biggest that could fit (BBC?) and having an appropriate cam that will fit should help with the dynamics some.
Obviously, there is a bunch you can do with the lobe design itself playing with running hot lash vs cold and dwell.
On the valve size, using the lightest valves (valves are somewhat regulated by size and material. no titanium) that you can legally use and a corresponding light valve spring / retainer package will allow lighter valve spring pressures. ( YES, definitely the right direction. With the carb restriction, they can't turn any rpm anyway . . . .) This should have the effect of reducing flex in the stock rocker arm (as required by rules). I have doubts that under running conditions, the stock rocker is actually transmitting the lobe profile to the valve. Obviously, to do this right, would require some Spintron time.
Lastly, is the exhaust. If we can push through 60bhp through a 1 3/8" od pipe off the head (to match the exhaust port area), I don't really see how most of the LBC racers can justify the sizes they do. (their headers are "too big" because there is no "packaging space" for them. So the initial radius is "tight" and pipe diameter goes from N1 to N2 or N3, just to keep from impeding flow.) Get the header working better and the more duration you can feed into the intake side and still protect the mid range / bottom end of the useable power curve.
Just my two cents. :cheers: Maybe, but $20.00 of value there . . . . . . . :wink:
On the valve size, using the lightest valves that you can legally use and a corresponding light valve spring / retainer package will allow lighter valve spring pressures. This should have the effect of reducing flex in the stock rocker arm (as required by rules). I have doubts that under running conditions, the stock rocker is actually transmitting the lobe profile to the valve. Obviously, to do this right, would require some Spintron time.
While I'm not completely familiar with the LP rules, the issue of valve spring pressure vs. friction was one Mark tackled the first time he saw the Grenade.
It wasn't as bad as a "Which eye do you want poked out?'" issue, especially once it was explained to me what was happening
Granted, I doubt a limited prep 1275 is intended to spin 9K. Only if you are an idiot that confuses noise with power . . . . . . . . or who ignores his tach . . . . . . . :roll:
If you're using stock rockers, you've only got about a 1.3:1 rocker ratio. We ran 1.5:1 ratio, and even with the additional mechanical advantage of the spring over the valvetrain at full lift, we were still throwing over the lobe, even with Crane "racing" springs. We wound up using KZ1000 drag bike springs from APE with a pretty stout seat pressure.
It was an issue of control and dependability, and while lighter components would have had value, we opted for indestructability. With a 1.3:1 ratio, the velocity of actuation isn't as dramatic as with the 1.5, but you still need to control it over the lobe, and I don't know that the power loss due to friction is substantial enough to trade for the stability of a heavier spring on these things.
The stamped steel pieces are fairly light weight, and if the rules allow, a welded bead across the top and bottom where they're pressed together would strengthen them up.
Mark - does LP allow the use of the factory forgings? Excellent question, to which I do not know the answer. I think I've got a set.
QuoteBob, there is NO question in my mind that you are correct in thinking that the cam development could lead to further gains. If I get an opportunity to "spin the cam grind for data", be assured I will.
And no doubt here you will!
My thoughts with the SCCA LP stuff:
Friction, friction, friction. And you know where most of the friction in an engine comes from ;)
Aftermarket billet cam - I believe cam journal sizes are unregulated, so installing the biggest that could fit (BBC?) and having an appropriate cam that will fit should help with the dynamics some.
Obviously, there is a bunch you can do with the lobe design itself playing with running hot lash vs cold and dwell.
On the valve size, using the lightest valves (valves are somewhat regulated by size and material. no titanium) that you can legally use and a corresponding light valve spring / retainer package will allow lighter valve spring pressures. ( YES, definitely the right direction. With the carb restriction, they can't turn any rpm anyway . . . .) This should have the effect of reducing flex in the stock rocker arm (as required by rules). I have doubts that under running conditions, the stock rocker is actually transmitting the lobe profile to the valve. Obviously, to do this right, would require some Spintron time.
Lastly, is the exhaust. If we can push through 60bhp through a 1 3/8" od pipe off the head (to match the exhaust port area), I don't really see how most of the LBC racers can justify the sizes they do. (their headers are "too big" because there is no "packaging space" for them. So the initial radius is "tight" and pipe diameter goes from N1 to N2 or N3, just to keep from impeding flow.) Get the header working better and the more duration you can feed into the intake side and still protect the mid range / bottom end of the useable power curve.
Just my two cents. :cheers: Maybe, but $20.00 of value there . . . . . . . :wink:
My apologies for inserting my answers into your text.
My thoughts, for the moment, center on accurately determining carb/manifold airflow, and designing the balance of the Build Spec (©) around that, and the other "limitations". I've been told, (by a couple of Limited Prep engine builders), that to get a "good" cylinder head casting, you need to start with a pallet load of potential candidates. Certainly the same for the carbs. Sounds really cheap to me!! :roll:
:cheers:
Fordboy
And now, we're on the "Shotgun" page . . . . . . .
:cheers:
FORDboy
Henry's Hemi, have we really gotten this far?Denver Colorado area or a little east.
Okay - Kate and I have talked about retirement places - it's still a few years off, but always planning ahead, you know?
I know Mark and I have discussed it, as well.
"Too hurricaney, too buggee, too droughty, to bubba-ee". Upper Midwest snobbery, I openly confess.
And while Kate has put her foot down about Wendover (too gambley), we had considered other parts of Utah.
But this town just got kicked out of the running.
"Too Tea-toddley" . . .
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/9/15/16307260/byu-wisconsin-football-bars-drinking-provo-nope
Go, Bucky!
Henry's Hemi, have we really gotten this far?Denver Colorado area or a little east.
Okay - Kate and I have talked about retirement places - it's still a few years off, but always planning ahead, you know?
I know Mark and I have discussed it, as well.
"Too hurricaney, too buggee, too droughty, to bubba-ee". Upper Midwest snobbery, I openly confess.
And while Kate has put her foot down about Wendover (too gambley), we had considered other parts of Utah.
But this town just got kicked out of the running.
"Too Tea-toddley" . . .
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/9/15/16307260/byu-wisconsin-football-bars-drinking-provo-nope
Go, Bucky!
We get snow but God takes it away quickly.
Lots of brew pubs.
700+ miles to Wendover about 10 hrs using I80.
Nick
Chris;
Take a look at Prescott, AZ. It is a moderate climate, small/medium sized town in a wooded area because of its altitude. North of Phoenix, South of Flagstaff.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Chris, consider the UP. Quiet, easy to get to big cities, nice and lonely (abut 1/3 of Michigan's land area, about 3% of the population), and best of all - for what you'll pay for a house on lots of land (acres and acres) you'd get a really nice chicken coop in more traditional retirement areas. Save your money for snow shovels!!I'm surprised only 3% of Michigan residents live there - what, with only a 9 month ice fishing season.
Buy Gus's house. :wink: :cheers:Might consider that - Is there a hazmat service in Salina?
Wayno
Chris...Grand Rapids...Beer City and weather that you are accustomed to...PLUS..You and I could sit in the garage all day long and get nothing done!!!:cheers: I hesitate only a little to add; "isn't that what he is doing now? What would be the advantage to move??" :dhorse: :dhorse: :cheers: :cheers:
Hoping.........
That's all an Old Man has ahead in his life.
FREUD
Chris...Grand Rapids...Beer City and weather that you are accustomed to...PLUS..You and I could sit in the garage all day long and get nothing done!!!:cheers: I hesitate only a little to add; "isn't that what he is doing now? What would be the advantage to move??" :dhorse: :dhorse: :cheers: :cheers:
Boulder, CO would have been a great choice-- 60 years ago!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
OK... maybe Kansas
k3rrv-6261389235@hous.craigslist.org
2,600 sq foot house and over 17,000 sq feet of garage space $150K
fairly close to Midwest Bonneville Dyno.... :cheers:
I have a realtor buddy that would call that " Cosmetically Challenged"
I have a realtor buddy that would call that " Cosmetically Challenged"
Bauhaus, buddy . . . Form follows function.
A bigass garage, a Butler building, a small ranch, two hours out of Tulsa for the Annual Bob Wills Birthday celebration every March at Cain's Ballroom.
Boy, Howdy!
Tulsa? Weaing a cowboy hat & boots? Hey, Tulsa is back East!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
QuoteNote to BMC fans . . . . . . British and otherwise . . . . . . . .
One of the pre "Runoffs" projects is a limited prep BMC 1275. The flow testing is done, the dyno testing will take place this week.
As soon as the project is completed, I'm going to post some real world numbers for Limited Prep heads Vs full race Vs Stock air flow.
I'm also going to post some comparison graphs of of the dyno output Vs the Grenade Vs F/prod 1275's Vs unrestricted 1275 GT/L engines.
Should be . . . . . . interesting. And it will get us through the 'K' development lull . . . . . . . .
I have a few ideas for the LP stuff, but it would take some $$ to pull off. Camshaft development seems to be the most lacking.
Re: BMC 1275 Limited Prep
20+ pulls later, this is what I know for certain . . . . . . . .
A/ Compression Ratio limitation (11 to 1) dramatically affects spark plug choice which affects the total ignition timing required . . . . . . NO big surprises here though.
2/ The valve lift limitation (.450" measured at the valve) also dramatically reduces power output. The test engine was relatively "insensitive" to valve lash changes, indicating that there was not enough "cam" for "good output". Cam was a billet Bachmann item. I was told several competitors use it. It's really hard to conclude anything yet, no thorough cam profile data so far. The cam data presented was basic and minimal.
Bob, there is NO question in my mind that you are correct in thinking that the cam development could lead to further gains. If I get an opportunity to "spin the cam grind for data", be assured I will.
d/ The requirement to utilize the "stock" 1.25" SU's, "un-modified" is a "gigantic" air restriction. Significant gains could be made with trick "Blue-printed" carbs. There is currently a "snipe hunt" underway for factory specifications. As it stands, there is a nice bhp output curve up to a certain rpm, the the bhp goes essentially "flat". That usually indicates restricted airflow into the engine. ANY "trick modification" would need to fall within measurable factory dimensions. The carbs used were "blue-printed" Bachmann items, which worked well. I'm just left wondering how much the rules can be "pushed" for this area. Even more reason to do some flow testing of 1.25" SU's . . . . . . . . .
z/ Cylinder heads that flow "too much" are a waste of time and energy here. Think about it, the main restrictions are the carbs and manifold. Too big ports kill velocity and flow and . . . . . wait for it . . . . . . transitional bhp.
I have not downloaded the "data dump" yet from the T&T dyno computer, so I have not done any serious number crunching. But, from memory, peak TQ was 87#/ft to 90#/ft.
That translates to: 87#/ft = 164.2 psi bmep
90#/ft = 169.9 psi bmep Both sets of the bmep numbers are on the low side, indicating that careful development would raise output.
That's all for now. More in a few days . . . . . . . .
:cheers:
:dhorse: boy
SCCA news.... LP1275 qualified in 2nd and 3rd in HP. There is an all black 1275cc MG sitting on pole in FP. 8-)Think about that a minute -
SCCA news.... LP1275 qualified in 2nd and 3rd in HP. There is an all black 1275cc MG sitting on pole in FP. 8-)Think about that a minute -
A 60 year old chassis design with a 65 year old engine design, giving Honda Fits fits.
Hail, Britannia . . .
:cheers:
Seems to me a Bob Wills fan would want to relocate to Texas. Especially those who are 5' 16" or so tall...
Seems to me a Bob Wills fan would want to relocate to Texas. Especially those who are 5' 16" or so tall...
Wills really made his name and career in Tulsa and Los Angeles.
I think everybody should go to Texas once in their life, and judge for themselves.
I made it back . . .
Block's done(http://_DSC1950.gif)
Was that a picture that didn't come through?
Pete
Okay - let's try this . . . it shipped today - might even have it in my hot little hands by Friday!
Well, for comparison, these are the old liners.
While there are guys taking these out to 2 liters and pushing 300 hp with the stock liners, I think we've just turned this into a genuine, bonafide racing block.
It sure looks like you'll have a much more stable platform to work from. Nice work Chris. Good luck with the build. Actually I know luck has little to do with it. You and Mark make an excellent team. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
Sneakyboy: In comparing the photos in replies 6471 and 6473 it appears that the headbolt bosses of the original configuration are isolated from the surrounding materials whereas in the “new” configuration everything, including the outer perifery, appears to be coplanar. What’s going on there? Are we losing preload to the water jacket and other areas?
Sneakyboy: In comparing the photos in replies 6471 and 6473 it appears that the headbolt bosses of the original configuration are isolated from the surrounding materials whereas in the “new” configuration everything, including the outer perifery, appears to be coplanar.
What’s going on there?
Are we losing preload to the water jacket and other areas?
You're still planning to make sure that where the ring pack runs is away from where the headbolt loads enter, aren't you?
I have two of the K 1.8 Kamax bolts in my desk as thought-provokers; they saved no end of grief by allowing the nice round bore to remain a nice round bore after the bolts were torqued. The trick works universally.
F
The block and sleeves assembly is now in what I would consider to be in "semi-finished" form.
:cheers:
Slideruleboy
Okay, here we go -
Who knows of a good alternative to PhotoBucket? ? ? ?
Sawzall will fix the bonnet clearance as does with the transmission. But wouldn't say this too loudly about setting engine back. Someone might complain..... :|
What's that orange stuff all over the place?I won't say a word
What's that orange stuff all over the place?
What's that orange stuff all over the place?
To Fordboy's comments, I've never questioned his abilities with a slide rule, a calculator, or a Vernier caliper.
So when Mark pointed out to me that it was a stuck piston in the slave cylinder that was causing my consternation, I was relieved that I was simply an inexperienced idiot, rather than an absolute dolt. Cold comfort, yes, but everything fits together, and an inexperienced idiot can gain experience, and, with time, disclaim the title of "idiot".
So I'm not a dolt . . .
Fordboy, what oil pump will you be using? Dry or wet? Also, I could use Steve Fox's phone number. I need a starter ring for my Cosy flywheel.
TIA,
John
Be glad you're on the "safe side" . . .
Just a thought...........may you consider a remote oil filter to save space..........its a necessary item when a side-car is attached to an oil-head BMW cycle...........currently relaxing in Pocatello.........HAPPY NEW YEAR
Mr. Phelps,
Should you choose to accept this mission, the Secretary will deny all knowledge of our involvement . . . . . . .
OK, adjusting my schedule, (like there is one . . . . :roll: ) for a "below the cheddar curtain" intelligence gathering on Wednesday, January 3rd, 2018.
For now:
A/ Bring the transmission, or empty trans case, so we can measure up the bellhousing starter mount area for potential starter relocation;
2/ Any of the pieces you have ordered and not shipped down;
d/ Anything else you can think of;
z/ ? ? ?
zz/ Choose to bring other "weapons" at your own discretion . . . . . . . .
You know the location of the proposed "exchange" . . . . . . .
:-o :-o :-o
MIboy
Send Lawyers, guns and money . . . . .
RIP Warren . . . .
¡Salud!
MIboy
Send Lawyers, guns and money . . . . .
RIP Warren . . . .
¡Salud!
MIboy
Guns? There's a reason I don't own one - the damned thing would be empty before I got it home . . .
Check.
The flange bolt pattern in Posts 1851 and 1852 reminds me of any work on a Meridan built Triumph. They made minor detail changes frequently to parts. Often in midstream of a year's production run. The parts look similar before and after the little detail changes. Sometimes it is a metallurgy change and both parts look identical.
This drives folks crazy. The institutional memory of the "when, why, and what" of the modifications is lost from the institutional knowledge on both the buyer, seller, and specialty part manufacturer.
The best defense seems to be a good parts book for the OEM motor. They list the different part numbers and the serial numbers of the vehicle when any changes were made. This gives a good basis of discussion when ordering things.
Folks now are making replacement parts from sand cast or scanned and milled molds based on an original part. They are not taking into account cooling shrinkage when the new casting cools. The part is too small and the bolt patterns are off. This is pretty common for pattern parts for old British bikes.
Bob was always bitching about the quality of the British-made parts for his McLaren M8C vs American- made parts. The Brit parts were always a little off in some dimension.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Bob was always bitching about the quality of the British-made parts for his McLaren M8C vs American- made parts. The Brit parts were always a little off in some dimension.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
By Bob, are you referring to Grumm's uncle? :-D
Nice looking adjustable sprockets. However, I don't see any "vernier" aspect. Interesting that you used that terminology though- there could easily have been a pair of 9:10 ratio scales incorporated to give true vernier indication.
I built my cam sprockets with 5-bolt mounting, which in concert with the 56 teeth allows positioning in approximate 1.3 degree increments. It works- but causes some mental anguish when re-positioning a sprocket. :-(
[Full disclosure: I admit that this multi-bolt positioning scheme wasn't my idea- I learned it from Milodon, who use it on their camshaft gear drives]
Have you found a fool-proof method of keeping the adjustable cam sprocket bolts from loosening up?
Happy New Year.............in the machine-shop :cheers:
As my buddy Fred Gorke is fond of saying "it's merely a bolt on accessory"
midget,
OK, spent some time disassembling the starter solenoid to investigate moving the B+ post to the alternate location. It will need the alternate copper contact (different shape) but I suspect that can be found in a Hitachi starter core, or purchased new from a starter rebuilding co.
Anyway, revised placement of the B+ post really simplifies mounting tucked in close to the block. It looks promising on offer up, compared to the original configuration. I think we can just revise the angular location CCW to the max height allowed by the starter cutout in the bellhousing, then rotate the starter on the pinion axis to provide maximum clearance the the K cylinder block and the engine compartment/frame (unibody) rail.
We will still need to "neuter" a couple of mounting bosses of the RH lower side of the block, but the whole operation looks easily achievable. My die grinder and Aluminum "hogging bit" will travel to T & T next year . . . .
:cheers:
Chipsaflyin'boy
Thanks for getting these posted up.
I resolved this morning to open a Flickr account, which I just did. I'll be able to start posting up photos as to the happenings in the Pommy Pigmy Playhouse.
I may go back through the diary and repost some photos that the jackasses at Photofuckit pulled, but it would be weeks trying to recreate the entire thing.
Happy New Year!
Photobucket Patch...........
Firefox;
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/photobucket-embedded-fix/?src=search
Chrome;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiB0Mjez4XWAhVryFQKHT5gCYAQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fchrome.google.com%2Fwebstore%2Fdetail%2Fphotobucket-embed-fix%2Fnaolkcpnnlofnnghnmfegnfnflicjjgj%3Fhl%3Den&usg=AFQjCNFPUKgOhKNwHZGLUVlCZzSjLnboGg
I lifted these from another forum.........works for me :-)
... There are vernier scales (kinda visible) in the top 2 photos of the gears...Kinda' obviously visible! I guess my eyes aren't any better now than they were in 2017... :-(
... There are vernier scales (kinda visible) in the top 2 photos of the gears...Kinda' obviously visible! I guess my eyes aren't any better now than they were in 2017... :-(
This modification does not, however, treat any tendency the pump may have to cavitate at the higher speed.
Couple of questions Mark and Chris- who many teeth on the crank and cam pulleys?. What is the pitch of the belt and tooth design? I have been using Gates carbonGT 8mm belts- limited lengths available- but super strong and "they don't stretch"... :roll:
Are there any spots on head and or block for drilling some ports for additional cooling in and out that might help even things out?
Jack
... who many teeth on the crank and cam pulleys?. What is the pitch of the belt and tooth design?...Let's see if these old eyes can redeem themselves... Appears to be 25:50 teeth. But any 1:2 ratio is OK- if you go with custom sprockets.
These things are notorious for uneven cooling
Couple of questions Mark and Chris- who many teeth on the crank and cam pulleys?. What is the pitch of the belt and tooth design? I have been using Gates carbonGT 8mm belts- limited lengths available- but super strong and "they don't stretch"... :roll:Sorry, I missed that info. Thought was a quick and easy.
Are there any spots on head and or block for drilling some ports for additional cooling in and out that might help even things out?
Jack
That's been in discussion since the day the block arrived.
The belt, I can get a HP piece out of Britain - hopefully better matched to the application than the exhaust flange . . . :|
... who many teeth on the crank and cam pulleys?. What is the pitch of the belt and tooth design?...Let's see if these old eyes can redeem themselves... Appears to be 25:50 teeth. But any 1:2 ratio is OK- if you go with custom sprockets.
The pitch appears to be 8mm, and tooth profile looks to be at least darn close to "modern" round tooth profile.
Hey- custom sprockets offer another water pump speed reduction, via a smaller crank sprocket. You'd need to consult belt manufacturer's specs for minimum sprocket size- I'm sure that a Gates GT-2 or GT-3 8mm belt can run reliably on as small as a 22 tooth sprocket.
Oops... I neglected the fact that you already invested in those nice vernier-adjustable sprockets. :oops:
... who many teeth on the crank and cam pulleys?. What is the pitch of the belt and tooth design?...Let's see if these old eyes can redeem themselves... Appears to be 25:50 teeth. But any 1:2 ratio is OK- if you go with custom sprockets.
The pitch appears to be 8mm, and tooth profile looks to be at least darn close to "modern" round tooth profile.
Hey- custom sprockets offer another water pump speed reduction, via a smaller crank sprocket. You'd need to consult belt manufacturer's specs for minimum sprocket size- I'm sure that a Gates GT-2 or GT-3 8mm belt can run reliably on as small as a 22 tooth sprocket.
Oops... I neglected the fact that you already invested in those nice vernier-adjustable sprockets. :oops:
... who many teeth on the crank and cam pulleys?. What is the pitch of the belt and tooth design?...Let's see if these old eyes can redeem themselves... Appears to be 25:50 teeth. But any 1:2 ratio is OK- if you go with custom sprockets.
The pitch appears to be 8mm, and tooth profile looks to be at least darn close to "modern" round tooth profile.
Hey- custom sprockets offer another water pump speed reduction, via a smaller crank sprocket. You'd need to consult belt manufacturer's specs for minimum sprocket size- I'm sure that a Gates GT-2 or GT-3 8mm belt can run reliably on as small as a 22 tooth sprocket.
Oops... I neglected the fact that you already invested in those nice vernier-adjustable sprockets. :oops:
Ok. Counting I get 48. A 48 tooth sprocket is 4.758" in diameter in 8mm belt, larger than the ruler held across one a page or two back shows. So I was just wondering.
QuoteThese things are notorious for uneven cooling
Yes, but why uneven or inadequate cooling?
Do we know that this is due to cavitation? On what basis?
I have a dim recollection of previously discussed concerns about overheat and head gasket troubles, which may be a chicken/egg issue of its own and apart from possible cavitation or other maladies.
All of which is to wonder if we know what the root of the problem is.
What do the UK racers with large displacement and/or turbos do about it? (As if they would let-on.)
I am not aware of any "uneven" cooling issue with the K engine.
I am using the Gates Poly Chain Gt Carbon belt which seems to be their best and toughest. It has survived my own design and construction to 10250rpms multiple times so far without a whimper. They use the modified curvilinear tooth which is a modified HDT type. Here is a listing of the lengths for the 21mm wide belt: http://www.gatespowerpro.com/Comergent/en/US/adirect/gates?cmd=catNavigateFrame
Gates has software called Gates Design IQ3 which will allow total design of the belt system with pulleys, idlers, tensioners etc and then tell you how big the belt needs to be (if you can guestimate torque loads) and more importantly if you are changing from the standard tension for which you may have specs, what the tension should be if you are using their (non stock to Rover etc) belts. If you change the water pump pulley you can use this to tell how long the belt needs to be and compare to what's available, particularly if also you are going to a non stock idler/tensioner (manual vs spring). It also tells you what deflection corresponds, with a tension gauge, to the proper load and on which stretch of belt you are measuring,. It is available for download.
Your Comma Cop is always at work, even while many of you are asleep.
MM said: "...Maybe I guild the lily ...""
Nope. You gild a lily, you join the Guild.
After all, I AM a prime member of the Comma Cop Guild. :dhorse:
Does the Milwaukee Midget belong to the lollypop Guild? I know, it isn't Friday yet.
Yeah, but German sausage & sauerkraut in a taco shell? :roll:
We ate $1 tacos from a german pizza restaurant..... :-o :-o :-o :-o
Face it. Some people just know how to party. :roll:
Wayno
German sausage and sauerkraut pizza, delicious. :cheers:
Yeah, but German sausage & sauerkraut in a taco shell? :roll:
Yeah, but German sausage & sauerkraut in a taco shell? :roll:Mike, climb out of the box.... those would be eaten on a flour tortilla, which would be a lot like a pizza crust, but even if you used a taco shell it would require mustard :-D
"2/ Driven pullet..." what kind of a chicken outfit is this? :-D
"...IthoughtIwrotewhatImeantboy..."
Another way of saying "What? Couldn't you read my thought bubble?"
Found my injectors and I'm working on a throttle body set-up utilizing a shortened stock manifold.
Let me throw this one out to those who have used EFI at Bonneville -
High impedance saturation injectors, or low impedance peak-and-hold?
"From what I've been reading, for idle and midrange, peak-and-hold seems to be the way to go."
And you are interested in this Why? It is Bonneville after all. WFO 99.9% of the time. :roll: :evil:
Much to do -
A - mill the manifold - DONE
B - cut and drill the TB brackets - DONE
C - sort out the linkage - I'm bringing some extraneous Weber and SU pieces - DONE, with the added bonus that I left 'em with Mark, cleaning out another corner of my basement
D - determine the throttle position sensor mounting and type - probably a GM piece of some sort - DONE . . . AND it is
E - move ahead on plumbing - I've got enough aluminum tubing in my truck to build a small Zippe centrifuge - DONE, without having to go nuclear
F - time permitting, pull the trigger on the oil pan chop - for which I bought sufficient plate - BEGAN with a trip to Mundelein AND delivered to Mike Hart to perform the chop.
Ordered up the 16v battery and charger today - should see it on Friday. AND received tracking information indicating just that.
Tangent: Did any of you ever want to see quantification of the difference between Wisconsin people and Illinois folks? Like, a real example of how differently they think?
:roll:
midget,
Just had a call from Mike. He is going to modify the cut regime on the oil pan slightly.
The parallel slice is too uneven for welding the casting back up. He is going to add some "tilt" back into the pan, so that the short side will be still "shorter", and cut the 3-1/4" side so that the finished, welded height will be 3-1/4". It will help oil drainage and oil changes. And we have to redo the oil pickup anyway so . . . .
It's why I like working with Mike, always thinking . . . . .
I gave his plan the OK.
:cheers:
Busyboy
midget,
Just had a call from Mike. He is going to modify the cut regime on the oil pan slightly.
The parallel slice is too uneven for welding the casting back up. He is going to add some "tilt" back into the pan, so that the short side will be still "shorter", and cut the 3-1/4" side so that the finished, welded height will be 3-1/4". It will help oil drainage and oil changes. And we have to redo the oil pickup anyway so . . . .
It's why I like working with Mike, always thinking . . . . .
I gave his plan the OK.
:cheers:
Busyboy
Just got another call from Mike.
The oil pan has been modified and is ready for pickup.
I guess he has been busy too . . . . .
I've got to run an errand to Libertyville later today or tomorrow, I'll grab the pan as I drive by.
:cheers:
Movingrightalongboy
I guess you are too busy at work and "tending cats".
An if it goes slow enough that a blind man on a fast horse starts commenting on the paint, we'll worry about it then . . .
I'm not blind but I think it's more the direction of the brush strokes ............... :-o :-D :-o :-D
An if it goes slow enough that a blind man on a fast horse starts commenting on the paint, we'll worry about it then . . .
I'm not blind but I think it's more the direction of the brush strokes ............... :-o :-D :-o :-D
We're using Dutch Boy Premium Exterior Latex and a China brush to improve laminar flow around the cowl, if that's where you're headed, Woody.
:wink:
Is it perfect? No, but neither is the paint job on the car. An if it goes slow enough that a blind man on a fast horse starts commenting on the paint, we'll worry about it then . . .
We're using Dutch Boy Premium Exterior Latex and a China brush to improve laminar flow around the cowl, if that's where you're headed, Woody.
:wink:
Rex, I've already spoken to the curator of the show. If I race at Speedweek, I'll be taking it to Road America that weekend. If I go to WOS, it won't work. They understand my conundrum, but yes, it would be cool to show it off at the place I really learned to love road racing.
Fordboy,
You are obviously not a PBR fan!
Rex
Just don't hand Stainless an IPA, he'll had it right back.
Been there done that. :-D
Don
View of the oil pan plug from the opposite side. Can anyone identify the foundry or material from this logo?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4766/39758674731_7483ea4e7e_h.jpg)
All welding should be carried out with the pan bolted firmly to the block.
That's pretty darned slick!
Mike's got good chops.
Let Mike know I have the axle housing. I'd be willing to run it down to him on Saturday.
View of the oil pan plug from the opposite side. Can anyone identify the foundry or material from this logo?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4766/39758674731_7483ea4e7e_h.jpg)
Just as I suspected - recycled Boddingtons cans . . .
Your material choices seem just fine to me. If I were doing the job I'd just build up weld in those two partial holes until you had a solid weld to the surface and then grind them level with the rest of the surface. There's no need to fill the whole hole. I'd grind out the thread where you're going to weld just to ensure a perfect weld. All welding should be carried out with the pan bolted firmly to the block.
Good luck.
Pete
Chris,
I was searching back in you build post for some info on your pan chop and ran across your thinking about possibly using an Accusump for additional oil volume. If you and F/b decide to go that way let me know I have an approx 2 qt Accusump that you can have for the cost of the freight, I will also provide a 12VDC isolation valve. These are parts from our lakester that I decided we really didn't need and so removed. Just taking up space in the shop.
Rex
Sounds like "at cost" is a good deal. Four billet pistons for my hemi were $1,600 from Diamond.
midget,
Quote from Diamond for a set of 4 pistons & pins, at cost:
75.5 mm bore dia; 30 mm comp ht.; 16 mm pin dia.
Fully machined billet only, grooved to suit rings supplied.
pins H11 custom only
No ring pack in quote. You need to supply
$807.00
+$250.00 for scanning combustion chamber mold
+ shipping, etc.
Probably looking @ $1100 total cost and you will need to either throw them a "bone" or order yourself. Not sure what price you might get quoted as an individual buying direct.
Good news is: delivery in 3-1/2 weeks or so plus time in shipment.
:cheers:
F/b
midget,
Quote from Diamond for a set of 4 pistons & pins, at cost:
75.5 mm bore dia; 30 mm comp ht.; 16 mm pin dia.
Fully machined billet only, grooved to suit rings supplied.
pins H11 custom only
No ring pack in quote. You need to supply
$807.00
+$250.00 for scanning combustion chamber mold
+ shipping, etc.
Probably looking @ $1100 total cost and you will need to either throw them a "bone" or order yourself. Not sure what price you might get quoted as an individual buying direct.
Good news is: delivery in 3-1/2 weeks or so plus time in shipment.
:cheers:
F/b
Maybe this is a silly question, but why do you need Billet pistons?
Can't you find a motorcycle forging, or other forging that would work in your bore size?
Tom G.
We're looking for the sweet spot with respect to overall piston height and rod length. Most MC pistons are fairly short. We'll likely want a crown height of between 30 and 32mm, with a pin substantial enough to handle 10,000 k.
The issue is the deck height. We need to go with a taller piston overall in order to construct a rod that doesn't give us a R/S ratio that is ridiculously high.
Maybe this is a silly question, but why do you need Billet pistons?
Can't you find a motorcycle forging, or other forging that would work in your bore size?
Tom G.
Unlike last time, I want to leave a little extra meat on the piston tops, just in case we need to do something unforseen.
midget,
Quote from Diamond for a set of 4 pistons & pins, at cost:
75.5 mm bore dia; 30 mm comp ht.; 16 mm pin dia.
Fully machined billet only, grooved to suit rings supplied.
pins H11 custom only
No ring pack in quote. You need to supply
$807.00
+$250.00 for scanning combustion chamber mold
+ shipping, etc.
Probably looking @ $1100 total cost and you will need to either throw them a "bone" or order yourself. Not sure what price you might get quoted as an individual buying direct.
Good news is: delivery in 3-1/2 weeks or so plus time in shipment.
:cheers:
F/b
midget,
I'm not sure whether this quote specified any coatings or max lightening or anything else.
I'll work on getting that information today.
:cheers:
F/b
Maybe this is a silly question, but why do you need Billet pistons?
Can't you find a motorcycle forging, or other forging that would work in your bore size?
Tom G.
Hi Tom,
Well the K doesn't NEED a billet piston, a forging would be fine.
The problem is that the original plan was to use Wossner, since they are European based, and had an offering for the 4v K engine. The idea was that their normal part could be "customized" to suit Chris's requirements. And John Noonan, the Wossner rep, had an interest in seeing that it would possibly get done in an expedited fashion.
And, as everybody who pays attention on this board knows, John was injured last year, and needs to spend his time on his recovery. Whoever is covering for John at Wossner, is quoting a long delivery period (13 weeks) from their European plant.
So, investigation has begun on manufacturers who can provide what is needed on a faster basis. Diamond can produce a part quickly, but only from a billet. No suitable forging for 75.5 mm bore diameter.
Other suppliers perhaps being considered are JE, CP, Venolia, etc in the U.S. I'm not sure if Chris has contacted Omega, Accralite, or others in the UK
If any reader out there has a handle on who could provide parts quickly, I'm sure Chris wants to know about them.
:cheers:
Fordboy
With the long rods the ghost of Smokey Yunick will be giving you the big thumbs up! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
Cooling System Update:
midget,
Water outlet arrived.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4606/28074662689_b02ec803ca_c.jpg)
1-1/4 hose end by 3/4 NPT
:cheers:
Fabricationboy
The outlet flange will need to be fitted to the new stainless steel header flange, not shown in this photo.
Ooooh - S T Y L I S H !
Second photo did not come through on the diary . . . :?
No way to make a separate outlet plate that's not integrated with the header flange? If I bottom out the exhaust, I see a possibility of a watery, steamy mess, and a hot exhaust flange probably won't hold up to RTV.
Chris, I just quit the best job I ever had for that very reason. :-D :cheers:
Wayno
Heads up - both inlet and outlet on the radiator will be at the bottom, regardless of whether I replace or refurbish the existing radiator.
Heads up - both inlet and outlet on the radiator will be at the bottom, regardless of whether I replace or refurbish the existing radiator.
Midget please re-read 3rd paragraph of 5.E.3 and maybe get a reading from the SCTA before venturing off script with the radiator...
Might want to think about using the gas tank as a water tank, or as a radiator in a water tank...
:cheers:
I don't know if this pertains to your packaging problems, but it doesn't say you have to use the radiator.
With both inlet and outlet on the bottom, will y'all be running a Degas bottle.
Chris and Mark,
I have a couple of comments regarding your cooling system thinking. 1. Chris you said that the radiator inlet and outlet will both be on the bottom of the radiator, so I am assuming that you are running a double pass radiator and that you will have vent valves on the tops of both tanks to make sure that the radiator is actually full of water before you run? I will also assume that the design of the radiator, if it is double pass, is such that the design will flow the cooling water at a sufficient velocity to insure turbulent flow and not at a large increase in back pressure due to the increase flow velocity. This is very important with electric water pumps as they do not produce much pressure without an accompanying reduction in actual flow. The largest Davis Craig electric pump EWP 150 looses 50% of its flow rating at 5 psi of back pressure! (Note that Davis Craig are the only electric water pump people that actually give you flow vs back pressure graphs.) So any additional flow restrictions can counter the supposed cooling efficiency gain of doing a double pass radiator. 2. Mark, you are proposing to machine a special venturi shaped water out let "restrictor". Why are you going to go to that trouble? I would assume that you are thinking about the potential to cavitate the cooling water as if flows through the restriction if it was a simple washer with a hole in it, i.e. a sharp edge orfice. Per Chris he is planning to use a 24 lb pressure cap, and this sets the system internal ambient pressure, actually the maximum ambient internal pressure, as long as this internal pressure it above 15 psi it cannot cavitate . Cavitation in water is caused by reducing the waters pressure below its saturated vapor pressure, which for water is one atmosphere i.e 14.7 psia let's call it 15 psi. If the system is at a system pressure of over 15 psi the water cannot cavitate.
Rex
Mark,
Cavitation in water is caused by reducing the waters pressure below its saturated vapor pressure, which for water is one atmosphere i.e 14.7 psia let's call it 15 psi.
If the system is at a system pressure of over 15 psi the water cannot cavitate.
Reading this technical discussion for a proper cooling system has me wondering why my cooling system works. What I have on the Lakester comes from years of using something similar on road racing cars. One simple feature was to keep the swirl pot (header tank) higher than the cylinder head/radiators and drilling a .125" diameter hole in the perimeter of the thermostat, all to bleed off trapped air. In a road racing car, it was often difficult to position the swirl pot higher than cylinder head but much easier in the lakester (see images). Also, I use just a 7 pound pressure cap on the swirl pot. BTW, my radiator is contained in a five gallon water tank.
John
Chris, 16.75 is a very small injector... I think 600s come with 26 lb injectors these days....
Chris,
Glad you got the Accusump, I have also received the check. Hope it helps you with your oiling system.
Chris, Mark and John (ggl205) I also happen to have a double pass radiator that measures approx 15x15x4 that is from a Porsche race car. I had planned on using it on my track roadster rebuild but decided that the present radiator that I fabricated should be fine. If you can use this radiator I can supply pictures and exact dimensions and I would need about $100 + shipping for it. I also have a Harrison heat exchanger approx 10x15x4 inches, single pass with -10 AN male fittings for the in and out. Same deal except I would need $50 + shipping for it.
Rex
Is "placed" akin to "filled"?
Is "placed" akin to "filled"?
What "Placed" REALLY means to suppliers is:
Is "placed" akin to "filled"?Is that filled or filed?
Is "placed" akin to "filled"?Is that filled or filed?
We are on the process of getting a Davies Craig rig, odds on you get em cheaper than us even though they're in Melbourne. They have as much computing power as Apollo 11... We might try and incorporate auto pilot into ours, that'll be ten less variables..( my ten brain cells)
So I just got the bill for the rings from Total Seal.
Conversions in place, about the same as your pump, Goggs . . .
Took Rex's advice - picked up the Davies Craig water pump kit from Pegasus. Comes with a 90 degree turn-out and an intake bung, relay, adapters. Claim is it's good for a NA 2 liter, 22 gallon/min - more than adequate as a supplement to the stock pump on the K.
Given the probable plumbing, we'll likely be looking at an additional gallon of water in the header tank and lines alone.
Guy hasn't steered me wrong yet . . .
AND
Just heard back from Mel at C&S - 4-6 weeks on the rods.
Goal is to have this on the dyno by my birthday.
Slim - is it time for another Dynothon? :wink:
Pump pic and specs -
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=25768
Mark,
You might be more interested in this info from the Davis Craig pump web site. Performance graphs are provided.
http://daviescraig.com.au/electric-water-pumps
Rex
Let me guess. There's a steel pipe with a collar and an o-ring that is held in place just by the force of the pump being bolted to the block? It's be a great idea if electrolysis wasn't a thing.... :roll:
midget,That trick never works . . .
CD of ultra secret Rover information should be dead dropped @ Select Sound today . . . . . . . . .
:dhorse:
Moose& squirrelly
Can't you leave the water pump in place and "decomision" it?.....re-route the belt and machine off the impeller? We're going electric mostly for space (and a little power) but it's those little motors that pick up the most power proportionately yeah?
Just knock the guts out of the pump & bang a freeze plug in the hole from the inside, then you get to keep the whole housing & bypass hose.
Sid.
Let me guess. There's a steel pipe with a collar and an o-ring that is held in place just by the force of the pump being bolted to the block? It's be a great idea if electrolysis wasn't a thing.... :roll:
midget,What did you use to make the mold? I did it with some bondo and it seemed OK. PITA all around though. I thought people with 3D printers had a scanning gadget you can hand hold to replicate stuff.
Friday afternoon Diamond sent me an email that the chamber casting is unsuitable for their inspection equipment. Too soft for their inspection probes. (Alien probing? ? ? ?)
I'm awaiting a response as to whether the print will be adequate for design purposes.
Or a material suggestion for a chamber casting that would be usable.
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Sigh
midget,What did you use to make the mold? I did it with some bondo and it seemed OK. PITA all around though. I thought people with 3D printers had a scanning gadget you can hand hold to replicate stuff.
Friday afternoon Diamond sent me an email that the chamber casting is unsuitable for their inspection equipment. Too soft for their inspection probes. (Alien probing? ? ? ?)
I'm awaiting a response as to whether the print will be adequate for design purposes.
Or a material suggestion for a chamber casting that would be usable.
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Sigh
I've used bondo. Had zero issues.Did you pour through the block? I suspect they're looking for a dimetrical reference as well.
I've used bondo. Had zero issues.Did you pour through the block? I suspect they're looking for a dimetrical reference as well.
Thanks for the photos. What kind of head is that?
Fordboy has two cams of mine and I’m sending him two more to have profiled. I use them for simulation work and to evaluate what the aftermarket companies are doing. With a OHC rocker set up the geometry requires a specific lobe shape due to the varying rocker ratio. As you profile, you sometimes find out that the lobe was taken from another application and while close, it may have weird dynamics. One aftermarket cam I measured had a large spike in positive acceleration at valve closing. Not good.
Mark -
Did anybody at Diamond tell us that they actually make a kit to do this?
I don't think they did . . .
http://www.diamondracing.net/about/how-to-videos.php#howtopour
Of course, this method won't work for us - we have no way of installing the head without the oil rail in place . . . :cry:
Can we use the torque plate? :roll:
OR . . .
Cut up the old oil rail? :roll:
Need to get the garage warm enough to paint the footwell - probably fire up the heater this afternoon and work on it this evening, seeing as there's NOTHING ON TV TONIGHT WORTH MY TIME TO WATCH . . .
I'll view the commercials tomorrow on line . . .
Fordboy has two cams of mine and I’m sending him two more to have profiled. I use them for simulation work and to evaluate what the aftermarket companies are doing. With a OHC rocker set up the geometry requires a specific lobe shape due to the varying rocker ratio. As you profile, you sometimes find out that the lobe was taken from another application and while close, it may have weird dynamics. One aftermarket cam I measured had a large spike in positive acceleration at valve closing. Not good.
A smart move - for that very reason.
You really, really want to believe the cam manufacturers are doing it right, but having now seen dozens of cam profiles and comparisons, it's way too often a crapshoot.
And as with any part, the manufacturer will seldom stand behind it after it's been installed.
As to the engineering, it seems they all steal from each other.
But if you take it out of the box, run a profile, and call them on the issues, the reputable grinders will either fix it or get you a refund.
I'm reasonably certain most of the engineers at the cam companies hate it when their work is checked, and non-conforming cam profile files fill their e-mail in-boxes. And in 9 out of 10 applications, their grinds probably work just fine.
But given the small displacement of what you, me and Mark are doing, and the slim margins for error, an incorrect cam, or an improperly ground lobe can mean the difference between success and shrapnel.
Mark checked the Piper Cams when they came in last summer. They were spot on, which is great. The idea of sending cams back and forth between the US and Great Britain is not my idea of a fun time.
midget,
Good news, bad news department . . . . .
Good news:
T&T had a Diamond epoxy chamber mold kit on the shelf . . . . . :-)
Bad news:
Product dated: 6/15/2009 and was: unusable . . . . . . :-(
Good news:
Ordered up a fresh one from Diamond. :-)
Possible delivery today, but with the snow storm, probably tomorrow.
Will cast up a mold asap and send off immediately. :-)
Two steps forward, one step backward, etc, etc, etc . . . . . .
:dhorse:
Processboy
Re: Cams
MOST applications, DO NOT require anything extraordinary to produce competitive power.
All that is required is a well thought out, high quality produced product, thoughtfully integrated into a comprehensive build plan.
Sounds simple doesn't it? And that, is where most builds falter . . . . . .
Food for thought . . . . . .
:cheers:
Fordboy
And here is our rod design -
And here is our rod design -
Saenz rods are of good quality. Some of the best racing transmissions too. I used to visit them occasionally when doing business in Buenos Aires.
John
Chris;
I suggest specifying an overall rod bend & twist spec. Bolt seating surfaces need generous radii, flatness & parallel spec.
Good luck with this project!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Clueless Kiwi here Chris, :-D so what engine are you working with here? It's obviously not the BMC-A any more.
Sid.
Shows 74.8 across the flats big end, into a 75mm bore!!?? Like IO says.
Hypotenuse of 79.25 - I need more detail.
A/ Hypotenuse of 74.8mm x 27.0mm IS: . . . . . 79.52mm AAAhhhhmmm, please explain your number.
Did anyone notice the 3mm tapered drilling specified in the left view? ? ? The purpose of this "center hole" is no doubt to provide an "anchor point" for radial turning of the big end to: 74.8mm Ø ! ! !
Viola! Fitment through 75.0mm bore now is a moot point, especially when combined with the large "cheek reliefs" shown on the drawing. I realize that the "print" is unclear about this dimension. That is
what "approval prints" are about. Communication ironed out at both ends . . . . . . .
Yes, that is in an earlier post, now that I look back. Too excited from a February day in Blighty with no rain.
F
The rod small end in post 6749 is blue. Something bad is happening there.H beam strength vs I beam strength produces nearly as much argument as rod ratio. Seems both have advantages and disadvantages depending on various factors. Carrillo certainly makes good rods, have used them too. My current are Crower I beams and have been happily been going to 10200 going on 10 years now with no stress seen. I don't know about the trough of the beam directing oil as WW suggests. Have seen the oiling holes as he also notes and but have never seen any discussion about how that may be preferable to the perhaps more common top of the small end location as with the ones under discussion here. That I haven't seen it means nothing of course and would be happy to see some discussion pro or con of that design.
There might be some distinct advantages to using a steel or ti H-beam rod where the troughs between the flanges direct lube up to oil holes for the pin that are at the upper ends of troughs, at 4:30 and 7:30 clock positions. Like Carrillo does.
For the nub-end of that; JLR. The Rover company as-was is now Chinese. I'm in Powertrain certification.
The 3mm hole shown in the left view is, in fact, the oil hole at the top of the rod. The two small curves at the bottom of the rod cap in the front view are apparently just an indication of a curved surface there. The alleged centering hole appears nowhere else in the drawing. If the 74.8 mm dimension is indeed intended to indicate a cylindrical feature, it is not properly so presented. Also, that area in the isometric view is shown as a flat along the split line.
Saenz may know what they’re doing, but that is not what the print says.
Shows 74.8 across the flats big end, into a 75mm bore!!?? Like IO says.
The rod small end in post 6749 is blue. Something bad is happening there.
There might be some distinct advantages to using a steel or ti H-beam rod where the troughs between the flanges direct lube up to oil holes for the pin that are at the upper ends of troughs, at 4:30 and 7:30 clock positions. Like Carrillo does.
H beam strength vs I beam strength produces nearly as much argument as rod ratio. Seems both have advantages and disadvantages depending on various factors. Carrillo certainly makes good rods, have used them too. My current are Crower I beams and have been happily been going to 10200 going on 10 years now with no stress seen. I don't know about the trough of the beam directing oil as WW suggests. Have seen the oiling holes as he also notes and but have never seen any discussion about how that may be preferable to the perhaps more common top of the small end location as with the ones under discussion here. That I haven't seen it means nothing of course and would be happy to see some discussion pro or con of that design.
Also, how is it that ARP L19 bolt material got specified?
How did you "unscrew" that threaded plug hole? What mold release did you use?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Regarding rod design---
Probably not an issue, but has anyone checked for rod-to-cylinder liner skirt clearance? Not at this point, but it will get done. With the de-stroking, there is reduced lateral displacement of the rod, which allows for a larger beam width. Since the piston travel will also be reduced, the bottom of the cylinder sleeve could also be notched for clearance. But this is a valid concern, to which we will pay attention.
Also, how is it that ARP L19 bolt material got specified? Having gone to a pretty beefy 3/8” bolt, is there really a need for this quite high-strength and less ductile material which has a propensity for suffering from hydrogen embrittlement? Seems like one of the lower grades would be perfectly adequate and less worrisome from that aspect. Also presumably less expensive. Probably Saenz's default choice, as Chris suggested. I agree with you that ARP 2000 would be a satisfactory selection. Using a cheaper, less sensitive material was my point in specifying the larger size. I'm going on the record for preferring ARP 2000 for this application, but it's not my wallet and I'm not "driving the train".
For that matter, given the hardnesses quoted for the rod material, and if the print is being revised, it might be good to get a detail of the bolt head seating area and have generous radii there. (Granted, this thing isn’t going to Le Mans). I agree that the print needs more details.
Are they going to be shot peened? Well, presumably. I think the rods for the "Grenade" were shot peened. BUT, the process should be specified. If I had drawn the print, it would be specified.
Personal thought on oil holes. To me, the dual underneath holes just provide great exhaust passages for the oil at the highest loaded location. I tend to agree, but I have only seen evidence of this on very highly loaded parts, blown, fuel or nitrous, etc; narrow pin end rod widths; and high vacuum dry sumps where oiling is diminished. I spend a lot of time on tear downs looking at a lot of things that tend to get ignored by others. You can learn a lot from how the parts look and measure up. Having said all that, I'm pretty sure the K will not be that highly stressed. And the K is getting a single top oil hole, according to the print.
The B/S ratio and photos indicate the cylinders provide a confined area for oil mist access to a hole on the top of the rod for small end lubrication. What about drilling two holes from the troughs on the sided of the rod up to the small end bearing? It would be similar to what Carillo does on the front and the back but on the sides.
The concern is the oil slung off of the crank webs will not get up into those narrow cylinders in enough quantity to do the job. Oil crawling up the rod might be a big help.
Also, how is it that ARP L19 bolt material got specified?
Saenz's "default" bolt.
I could downgrade it, but I've worked with them before, and I have already made the mistakes - I did overstretch the first set on the Grenade and was oblivious to the handling issues.
But now I've got latex gloves, patience and experience, and they'll be fine. I don't know that the potential savings of a 2000 ARP over the L19 is worth changing up the order.
If I do it right this time, I should only have to handle them once.
Don't be so certain that you will only torque them once. And if it was me, I would request ARP 2000 bolts, at the reduced cost. They might be unwilling to lower the material spec, but who knows until you ask. If you don't want to keep pestering them, well OK, your call.
:cheers:
F/b
I usually claim to have fallen in with a bad crowd when I was young.... :cheers:
I'm not sure if it helps to reflect on how I started "down the wrong path" . . . . . . . . .
Second-hand glue sniffing? :? :-o :? :-o
165 hp from a 2 port farm tractor engine is amazing. Using these numbers the original Grenade would have made over 120 hp!! and we all know the effort that Chris and Mark put into it .
Rex
Dry sump Vs wet sump
This is an unknown, but 3/5 bhp is reasonable.
Conjectureboy
Dry sump Vs wet sump
This is an unknown, but 3/5 bhp is reasonable.
Conjectureboy
Mark, I assume you are indicating that the dry sump may be worth 3/5 bhp more than the wet sump system in the "Gernade".
(if not don't bother reading the rest) :roll:
In one of Smokey Yunicks sb chevy books he states "Make no mistake, switching to a dry-sump will cost some power".
He says in the sb chevy "at least 8 to 10 HP or more over a wet-sump".
So is this windage vs dry sump pumps?
What's your take on this?
I'm not questioning your knowlage on this, I'm just trying to increase mine. :-D
Thanks, Don
I have heard that the SPCA and PETA are lobbying aggressively to have piston oil squirrels replaced by some sort of pressurized tube and orfice oil delivery system. :-D
vic
Excuse me distracting you all if I missed something; erm, aluminium tube joint to steel fuel tank carcass..? Lots of bolts and an o-ring?
Perhaps this class mandates unmolested fuel tank architecture; if so that kills the above idea anyway.
And there would have to be some ice; the salt pix look like it's a warmish place compared to Blighty so it'd be necessary to take a huge bucket of ice from the hotel.
I absolutely LOVE the fact that we have a representative from Jaguar/Rover powertrain certification joining in on this conversation. Forker, if you ever do get to the salt, I'm going to force you to drive this thing.
That's a deal!
Downloaded the Holley EFI software tonight. Hoping to find a file somewhere of ANY 4-cylinder application to monkey around with, but - as I was warned - Holley's resources are OVERTLY V-8 centric.
So I'll by playing around with the MAP for a Small Block Chevy tonight, and try to get a feel for how the software works without the luxury - or annoyance - of a small block.
Would you simply divide the V-8 figures by two to get whet you need?
Mostly it's just trying to explain the new health insurance plans and health savings accounts, writing release forms, attending meetings, maintaining files, auditing I-9 forms, creating HIPAA compliance policies, auditing payroll and answering 401(k) questions.
It's funny - we operated for 59 years with a system of index cards and a recipe box. Today, I've got enough files to organize a fairly substantial prison break from Stateville.
There are several "metal doughnuts" available that can help with tight header radius requirements. Pegasus has some and also Pro Werks http://www.pro-werks.com/partlist/979/.
There are several "metal doughnuts" available that can help with tight header radius requirements. Pegasus has some and also Pro Werks http://www.pro-werks.com/partlist/979/.
Rex, thanks for that, but this has been the rub from the git-go - we're looking at 1 1/4" tubing.
It's a good idea - I just need to see if there is a supplier of bike doughnuts - but bikes seldom need radii that tight.
Rex, thanks for that, but this has been the rub from the git-go - we're looking at 1 1/4" tubing.
It's a good idea - I just need to see if there is a supplier of bike doughnuts - but bikes seldom need radii that tight.
Cost considerations tell me no, but anybody out there know of someone who does this? The Grenade used a ceramic coated header, and I'm a fan.This guy is a Bonneville racer, did my header, I liked it.
And here is the flip side of the coin on headers.
Tom G.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU
PS. While on burns stainless site I got hacked, so be careful. Maybe a coincidence maybe not.
And here is the flip side of the coin on headers.
Tom G.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azPKIjxmmdU
PS. While on burns stainless site I got hacked, so be careful. Maybe a coincidence maybe not.
That combination was so far off that the headers weren’t the restriction. You will NOT do that to something Elston, Pro Header, Weiss, etc build and not lose power.
But if people want to believe it, I don’t discourage them. Especially if they’re competing against of my friends. :-)
I like the crown thickness and the generous distance down to the top ring groove. Appears adequate for phase II- forced induction... 8-)
I though that sort of bevel at the periphery of the piston top went out long time ago. Just makes more crevice volume. Break the edge ,yes, but big bevel no? Mark want to weigh in on this? I like that the rest of the normal sharp edges- valve pockets etc- appear already smoothed out. Reduces prep time a lot.
Minor Update:
Despite the absence of our "FFL", "oiling squirrel" chips away at the work list . . . . .
moose is slaving tirelessly somewhere in the hinterlands of Sconnie Nation Human Resources . . . . . .
OK, moose made it south of the "cheddar curtain" on Wednesday the 21st. I kinda think it was the lure of "dollar tacos" coupled with access to machine tools that can cause grievous bodily injury . . . . . .
The day went along with moose slavishly attending to gas tank and fuel pump mounting, ie: neutering of some components and surgery, fabrication and "eastern vegetarian incantations" performed on others.
The squirrel concentrated on machining the oil suction pipe, minor neutering of the new engine bolt ladder to fit the oil suction pipe at a proper height, and fabrication of the new oil pan "bottom".
No time for posting the "evidence" now. Picture "porn" later . . . . . Boris only, no Natasha . . . . . . .
:cheers:
RocketJSquirrel
Dry sump Vs wet sump
This is an unknown, but 3/5 bhp is reasonable.
Conjectureboy
Mark, I assume you are indicating that the dry sump may be worth 3/5 bhp more than the wet sump system in the "Gernade".
(if not don't bother reading the rest) :roll:
In one of Smokey Yunicks sb chevy books he states "Make no mistake, switching to a dry-sump will cost some power".
He says in the sb chevy "at least 8 to 10 HP or more over a wet-sump".
So is this windage vs dry sump pumps?
What's your take on this?
I'm not questioning your knowlage on this, I'm just trying to increase mine. :-D
Thanks, Don
Why don't you put the jackstand under the trunk floor and drop the car on it instead of on you? :roll: :roll: :evil: :evil: :cheers: :cheers:
Why don't you put the jackstand under the trunk floor and drop the car on it instead of on you? :roll: :roll: :evil: :evil: :cheers: :cheers:
At first, I chuckled. But THEN, I gave that idea some SERIOUS THOUGHT!
I located my 3 ton jack under the area I needed to "dimple", heated it up from the top, and, with a #2 maul, pounded the car down around the jack!
BINGO!
GRAVITY IS YOUR FRIEND!
It was definitely easier applying the brute force in a downward direction than fighting the gravitational pull while on my back on a cold, concrete floor. :-D
Wouldn't that be gravity with a huge assist from repeated applications of "brute force"? ? ? ? ?
Mark, PM sent.
Pete
I need to take a day next week, hang out at T&T, do what I can to help Mark on his end of the project, grab a few measurements, and eat some cheap tacos from the German pizza restaurant. Wednesday, Mark?
Maybe we'll see pistons? :roll:
I've got the Midget tentatively set to go to Rod and Comp up in Butler the last week in March to put in a new cross member and have the frame rails drilled and sleeved for the motor mounts.
I really wish I could weld . . . :cry:
You guys make me jealous. Here I haven't even had breakfast yet and all I can think about is ale with brown foam and dollar tacos. I hope the meet up goes well. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:Well, Mark's always said, "You can't say you've been drinking all day if you don't start in the morning!" :wink:
Pete
The poor mans fix to stiffen up Armstrong lever shocks way back in the 19th century was to up the oil viscosity.
Just seems that long ago, see my age. :-PThe poor mans fix to stiffen up Armstrong lever shocks way back in the 19th century was to up the oil viscosity.
Heavier oil will milk a pair of leakers out for a couple years. 20 weight is what the factory recommends, but I used to run 50 straight in a worn-out set, and it helped.
19th century? :?
"Queequeg, Ishmael, render the White Wale! We must supply the colonists with shock absorber oil for the smooth operation of their horseless chariots!"
Actually, whale oil is cheaper than the stuff Moss sells.
:-D
Take a look at 'Project Binky' here; http://www.badobsessionmotorsport.co.uk/project-binky-episode-11/
That way, there'll be data.
F
Renaming Suggestion . . . . . .
midget,
In the interest of . . . . . . keeping up interest, whilst my knee recuperates . . . . . .
I'm voting to rename this thread: PROJECT PI (Irrational, but well rounded . . . . . . . :wink:)
Well, at least for March 14th anyway.
Hey, Hey, Hey . . . . . it's still Friday where I'm at! !
And the bartender has cut me off . . . . :cry:
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Humorco-ordinatorboy
FB, this project has always been transcendental! :-o :-D :cheers:
FB, this project has always been transcendental! :-o :-D :cheers:
Maybe we should move our base of operations to Fairfield, Iowa. We could offer a certificate program in irrational racing development through the Maharishi University (aka "Guru U"), and get the post-grads at the David Lynch Graduate School of Cinematic Arts to create a feature film - kind of like "Twin Peaks", or "Blue Velvet", but with a lot more beer.
https://www.mum.edu/mfa-in-film-production/
A couple of other attractions to Fairfield -
You're virtually equidistance to Milwaukee, Chicago, St Louis and Kansas City, so it's a daytrip for Brewers, Bears, Blackhawks, Sox, Cubs, Cardinals, Royals and Chiefs.
It's an hour and a half to the Knoxville Nationals.
And yes, the nation's best kept secret in Brown Trout fishing - NE Iowa. The DNR takes fishing very seriously there, and they have a great stocking program - and as little as I fish, I still know a spot.
On top of that, if you want to go totally primal on the fishing, the Wapsipinicon is a world class Catfish grappling river. They get big enough that sometimes the fish still wins.
Downside - an overabundance of white-tail, corn fed rats. It's gotten crazy the number of deer-related car accidents in the last 15 years.
I have a Dunlop Camber gauge I can loan you if you wish.
It's POSSIBLE I could at least have this short block screwed together by April Fools Day.
Excuse me!!!! Wouldn't yours be considered a small block, in fact a verrrry small block :? :? :? Dodge circle trackers.
Ron
Busy day south of the Cheddar Curtain.
Mark took a buttload of pictures which he'll eventually post up. I'll let him describe his work, but it's safe to say that the 360 bearing oil scheme is a complete success.
Me? I fettled.
I fettled the oil pan - I fettled the new plate for the oil pan - I fettled the oil ports in the oil pump.
When Tommy at T&T gets around to welding up the oil pan, it should be easy sailing.
You think that pan will be flat when you get done welding? :evil: :evil: :cheers:
You think that pan will be flat when you get done welding? :evil: :evil: :cheers:
You think that pan will be flat when you get done welding? :evil: :evil: :cheers:
Meah . . . Flat enough for what we're doing.
The pan is a fairly heavy ribbed casting, which actually has (had) engine and transmission mounting bosses for various transverse applications.
If the casting is clamped down to the girdle before it's welded, I'm pretty certain we won't encounter any warpage severe enough to cause problems.
And this is the point where Mark steps up and says, "Stop worrying about it", followed by a bullet point list numbered "1" through "g"! :-D :cheers:
If I were doing the job I'd probably have the girdle bolted to the block as well to ensure absolute rigidity.
You did an excellent job of preparation for the welding Chris. Proper preparation and cleanliness lead to a much higher quality weld.
Pete
You think that pan will be flat when you get done welding? :evil: :evil: :cheers:
Yes.
Reason I ask (besides the usual being clueless and understanding that welding stuff tends to pull things) is way back when I managed to ventilate an unobtanium (aluminum) block with a rod that melted a journal due to detonation and insufficient oil pressure (at about 260 mph running on 2.5 of 4 cyls at the time_) and I got it fixed by a superior welder where you could not see the repair. My machinist said " you are going to have to machine every surface (including main bores, deck, pan rails, oil pump mount, bell housing etc etc) to get it straight again. :-( :? 8-) :cheers:" He was right...... :dhorse: Onwards and upwards. Looking forward to the upcoming dyno testing by Easter..... :-D
My machinist said " you are going to have to machine every surface (including main bores, deck, pan rails, oil pump mount, bell housing etc etc) to get it straight again.
Looking forward to the upcoming dyno testing by Easter..... :-D
You think that pan will be flat when you get done welding? :evil: :evil: :cheers:
Yes.
Reason I ask (besides the usual being clueless and understanding that welding stuff tends to pull things) is way back when I managed to ventilate an unobtanium (aluminum) block with a rod that melted a journal due to detonation and insufficient oil pressure (at about 260 mph running on 2.5 of 4 cyls at the time_) and I got it fixed by a superior welder where you could not see the repair. My machinist said " you are going to have to machine every surface (including main bores, deck, pan rails, oil pump mount, bell housing etc etc) to get it straight again. :-( :? 8-) :cheers:" He was right...... :dhorse: Onwards and upwards. Looking forward to the upcoming dyno testing by Easter..... :-D
My machinist said " you are going to have to machine every surface (including main bores, deck, pan rails, oil pump mount, bell housing etc etc) to get it straight again.
We'll see. Regarding alignment, we installed bearings yesterday, clamped everything down, and the crank turned brilliantly.
Keep in mind, we had the block re-sleeved, which required extensive block modifications and preparations. It's my hope the weld up of the pan doesn't significantly alter what appears to be a square block, but we'll know more shortly.Looking forward to the upcoming dyno testing by Easter..... :-D
:|
Trying to stay optimistic and ambitious, but I'll be happy if the short block is together by Easter.
Let's hope for Memorial Day on the dyno?
:wink: just tugging on the chain previously pulled :evil:
Beautiful work, Mark!
Mark- again nice work. I have read somewhere that locating tangs may be superfluous other than for the initial placement of the bearing and that they really don't hold the bearing but that bore crush does. Making the complicated operation you have gone through unnecessary. You could just grind off the offending tang. Thoughts? Obviously you felt the above likely untrue as you have gone to considerable work to make the bearings fit as mfg'd. Just askin'.
Clueless Jack
I will not know if it works until that first run down the salt.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/815/40275534054_fd7d02b751_b.jpg)
Minor update:
Coolant outlet Porn!! . . . . . er, photos . . . . . .
So you end up spending time on some things that are just typically taken for granted . . . . . . .
With the new exhaust flange installed on the head, an alternate provision for coolant outflow is required.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4764/26374184348_2a807c70d7_b.jpg)
This beaded water pipe connector is from CSR Products.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4611/39535362284_5fcb91c938_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4661/26374184078_5375f9d5d2_b.jpg)
Since I wanted the outlet neck centered over the cast passage in the head, I made a template of the space available:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/820/40942831452_cdb175936c_b.jpg)
And the fitted plate. Fabricated from 1/2" thick 6061T6.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/789/40942808072_4f26913983_b.jpg)
Yeah, I know it's overkill, but the material was leftovers from one of the midget's previous dyno adaptors. Poetic, isn't it?
And I'm a charter member of the "clean plate club".
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4782/40942808022_bc20b42da0_b.jpg)
The tapped plate. 3/4" NPT
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/787/40984577671_a01a2c147e_b.jpg)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4779/40942831012_3542193a62_b.jpg)
The finished product.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/801/40984577421_883ed27705_b.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/806/40942830652_ee6e1ab97f_b.jpg)
Another "small job" that "consumed a morning". One more detail out of a thousand . . . . .
And that, boys and girls, is why racers are hopeless optimists . . . . . . . . and why EVERYTHING takes longer than you think it will.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I'mafflictedtooboy
P.S. Hopefully, I'll soon be obsessing over the details of the flies I'm tying. I'll be the same Mark, just a different blog on a different board . . . . . . .
I would redesign that detail, or at very least make sure that the pipe was firmly supported and not allowed to flex at all.
Not trying to find fault or be critical here, but personally, I would not trust that outlet adapter. I have had to repair far too many failures on things just like that. The cut threads create a stress riser in the tube, and the long stand off with the weight of hose, clamp, and coolant bearing on it along with vibration from the engine running is just begging for the adapter to snap off at the worst possible time. I would redesign that detail, or at very least make sure that the pipe was firmly supported and not allowed to flex at all.
Chris;
What size AN fitting might work in your adapter? I have a few very large AN fittings in aluminum and stainless that I'd be happy to donate to The Cause.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Please, please, please, DO NOT, tell me you have "binned" it.
If you have already binned it:
A/ DO NOT pass Go,
2/ DO NOT collect $200.00
d/ Move, immediately, to Australia . . . . . . .
If you need a part best found somewhere in UK, sing up.
Found it -
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/789/40373772704_01c5fa69ae_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24vG92o)oldoilpump (https://flic.kr/p/24vG92o) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
Don't ask . . .
I leave the casting selection of other characters to your "good judgment". ? ? ? ? ? ?
Thiswholeendeavorisoutofcontrolboy
Danny DeVito wants your part FB! :-o :-o :-D :-D :cheers:
I leave the casting selection of other characters to your "good judgment". ? ? ? ? ? ?
Thiswholeendeavorisoutofcontrolboy
I called the William Morris Agency already - They said they'd get back to me.
Tarantino's interested, but he wants to redo the script and paint the interior of the Midget white - you know, for "effect".
My contacts at Weinstein haven't been returning calls to anybody.
John Goodman WANTS to play you, but insists on the Coen brothers directing it.
But I was thinking Zucker, Abrahams and Zucker, so there's an artistic conflict right out of the box.
I was hoping Dave Edmunds would do the score, but he retired last September. A pity - the soundtrack for "Porky's 2" was OUTSTANDING.
I really don't care who plays me - I'm a supporting cast member, and anybody with a SAG card can do what I do.
I called the William Morris Agency already - They said they'd get back to me.
Tarantino's interested, but he wants to redo the script and paint the interior of the Midget white - you know, for "effect".
My contacts at Weinstein haven't been returning calls to anybody.
John Goodman WANTS to play you, but insists on the Coen brothers directing it.
But I was thinking Zucker, Abrahams and Zucker, so there's an artistic conflict right out of the box.
I was hoping Dave Edmunds would do the score, but he retired last September. A pity - the soundtrack for "Porky's 2" was OUTSTANDING.
I really don't care who plays me - I'm a supporting cast member, and anybody with a SAG card can do what I do.
Don't do yourself a disservice, and sell yourself short . . . . . . and besides, that's my job. Although :roll: . . . . shorter would fit in the car better . . . . Your new height is: four foot, twenty-nine inches . . . .
John Goodman WANTS to play you, but insists on the Coen brothers directing it.
FB's buddy, Mike Hart, races a Spridget in Vintage. He came up with a really cool driveshaft tunnel, which I'm in the process of replicating . . .
FB's buddy, Mike Hart, races a Spridget in Vintage. He came up with a really cool driveshaft tunnel, which I'm in the process of replicating . . .
Small correction, Mike used to race a Spridget, now he races the "Turdner". Powered by Ford Vs BLMC
:cheers:
FB's buddy, Mike Hart, races a Spridget in Vintage. He came up with a really cool driveshaft tunnel, which I'm in the process of replicating . . .
Small correction, Mike used to race a Spridget, now he races the "Turdner". Powered by Ford Vs BLMC
:cheers:
Smaller correction -
The options are "BL" or "BMC" :wink:
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Three cheers - it's a holiday . . .
Those were dark days, undeserving of alliteration.
As bad as the Fiat X1/9 was, the best Leyland could counter with was the TR7?
I'll agree - a properly set up 2.0 Cortina would outrun and outcorner either.
For that matter, for less money, a little time, some sweat equity and a Racer Walsh catalog, the 2.0 Pinto or first gen Fiesta would be a serious threat.
Still one of the sharpest minds on the screen. Thanks, Neil.
Just looking through the list, it appears that the last British owned auto manufacturers are Morgan, McClaran, TVR, and allegedly, Bristol.
Of the four, only Morgan's annual output might meet a production class requirement for SCTA-BNI.
TVR was owned by a Russian Iirc? then the company closed, not sure if it was sold? McClaren is largely owned by a Bharianian consortium and Mansour Ojjeh Iirc? after Ron Dennis was forced out?
TVR was owned by a Russian Iirc? then the company closed, not sure if it was sold? McClaren is largely owned by a Bharianian consortium and Mansour Ojjeh Iirc? after Ron Dennis was forced out?
Wouldn't be surprised.
So what's left of the backbone of the domestic British automobile industry is a company that restores more cars than it currently creates, and a company that hires more boatwrights than automotive engineers.
Got it.
I wish them better luck than Kelvinator had with Nash.
I'm a simpleton at heart. ALL I want is f'ing ice in my Dr. Pepper dammit . . . . . . . Is that too much to ask? ? ? ? ? (apparently, it is . . . . . )
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Annoyedboy
Probably should have read it all, I could have made it one post...
Chris.... is it me or is the racing prep giving you gray hair? :cheers:
Probably should have read it all, I could have made it one post...
Chris.... is it me or is the racing prep giving you gray hair? :cheers:
Truth time -
I've been dying it for years.
I'm no longer playing in a band, so I've decided to stop trying to look like a rock star, and start trying to look like a land speed racer.
Which - if you look closer - explains why it's also getting thinner. :wink:
I'm a simpleton at heart. ALL I want is f'ing ice in my Dr. Pepper dammit . . . . . . . Is that too much to ask? ? ? ? ? (apparently, it is . . . . . )
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Annoyedboy
Mark... sounds like you might want to put a little rum in your DP.... it will help keep your mind off of the ice issue.... :-D
:cheers:
Mark, never tried JD n DP.... I guess I'll try it.... do you usually mix that 4:1... JD:DP :cheers:
I'm thinking that in the real alloy adaptor plate, that the gearbox attachment fasteners need to be some type of hardened studs.
I'm thinking that in the real alloy adaptor plate, that the gearbox attachment fasteners need to be some type of hardened studs.
I'll pick up 10 - it looks like a pair of extra mounting holes may magically reappear once the plate is finalized.
Hey ChrisHappy Birthday Mr. Midget! ! !
58, an age I remember fondly . . . . . . .
SO, does this warrant a day off from Human Resources?
And, more importantly, will that "free day" be spent south of the "cheddar curtain" at the "skunkworks"? ? ?
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Co-conspiritorboy
Another solar orbit completed! :cheers:
Don't let the hair thing slow you down! :x
Chris, I don't see the walk-in bevel on the back of the flywheel ring gear teeth. It looks in the pics as if it is on the back side opposite the starter. :?
I have had to hand grind each tooth in situations where the starter changed position from back to front. It is nothing precise; just enough bevel to let the Bendix gear start walking its way into full engagement.
All the best Chris. May your year include new records! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
I have used allen head in tight spots ..
Mark,
Regarding your thread choice for the oil block, do you have a -10 "O" ring seal porting tool? Probably not but I'll bet you have a 1/2 NPT tap. I am not a real fan of pipe threads but a -10 port tool is probably $50+..
Looking good, the flywheel retention and location devices look good for at least 350HP+!
rex
If you can finish off the pan and the oil fittings, I'll come down and get it. I have to work Saturday morning, but I can stop down Saturday afternoon and grab it, check it to the new driveshaft tunnel, confirm the engine set-back and have it back to you in a fortnight.
This will also let us get an idea as to how to proceed with the header. I'll do a mock-up with the armored BX, but we need to confirm what size collector we'll need - I'll need that for the mock-up.
I question if the wings will fit in the chassis of the Midget. If you can superimpose the wings for the dyno adapter over the drawing of the Rover/MG adapter, I can do some measurements once the engine is in place.
I want to get the engine running in the chassis - at least able to start and idle - before we spend a lot of time in what is clearly becoming a very busy dyno room. I don't want to waste anybody's time in the dyno room trying to get this thing to simply fire when we could be churning water, editing the MAP, and taking measurements.
This time -no inverted electrical pins and no leaks!
Yeah - that was me . . .
OR, perhaps using the BMC dyno adaptor plate to bolt up to the 902's scattershield.[/b][/color]
Thoughts?
:cheers:
F/b
What a fine valedictory, Chris -- and you aren't even retiring. Thank you very much for helping us remember why we do this stuff -- the rewards are SO COOL.
OR, perhaps using the BMC dyno adaptor plate to bolt up to the 902's scattershield.[/b][/color]
Thoughts?
:cheers:
F/b
I like the idea of not reinventing the wheel. The dyno has a starter built in, so I can't imagine why we shouldn't be able to adapt an adapter that's intended for a BMC bolt pattern to a plate that was designed to adapt a BMC bolt pattern to a Chevy bellhousing. Key will be where the splines mount up - we're adding another 1/2 inch there.
Get done what you can get done - I've got plenty to finish in the garage.
Got it - the distance from the face of the new K hub to the back of the new A-K adapter plate is the same as the distance from the original A hub to the original transmission plate.
Ergo, the dyno adapter worked on the A, and will work on the K.
So why were we talking about wings? I prefer tacos. :wink:
Aren't those pretty! :cheers:
Mike
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/808/40479415515_8774f517f0_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24F2zXa)DSCN1205 (https://flic.kr/p/24F2zXa) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/784/40479417275_d351669fd8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24F2Atv)DSCN1204 (https://flic.kr/p/24F2Atv) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/804/40479419025_cb317c379d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24F2AZF)DSCN1203 (https://flic.kr/p/24F2AZF) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
Meanwhile - in Beerhaven . . .
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/900/41377755591_c1afe9d105_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/263pPaa)FSCN1207 (https://flic.kr/p/263pPaa) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
After it's all put together, I'll need to disassemble it, prime it, and
Looking good, all the motor parts with 122 days to go.... should be a walk in the park :roll:
:cheers:
Well, I was going to wait for the photographic evidence, BUT, got a call this morning from T&T, Diamond has delivered . . . .
Will you "wood grain" it? Or just paint it Aussie Yellow as a racing stripe? :-D
:dhorse:
Wantstoknowboy
Hey! :roll:
I'll search for it tonight.
Well, while we're adding it up -
The finish print from Saenz gives us this -
Big end - 380
Small end - 116
Total - 496
The original stock piston and rod combo, including rings - is 766.
So 867, less rings . . .
So we've added about 100+ grams to each assembly.
I'm glad we specified a shorter stroke and 3/8 rod bolts.
I'm equally grateful we're dealing with 5 main bearings, rather than 3.
Nevertheless, we'll skip the laughing gas.
SO YEAH , WHERE does it seep from AFTER you put it on ??
I've done similar modifications to a few aluminum pans over the years and despite the above comment never had an issue using very similar methods to what you used.
Looks good guys! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
Nice!
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
SO YEAH , WHERE does it seep from AFTER you put it on ??
Well, I don't discount the possibility of seepage after installation. It is a risk with modifications like this. Problem was, if you recall, that the oil pan was going to "groove the salt" in the unmodified condition. So, something HAD to be done . . . . . . I'll take my chances that any defects after the fact will be minimal. If they are not, we do not run. Simple as that. But I'll bet the "over" on this issue.
BUT, anyone who has worked on early Cosworths or, say, Jaguar V-12's, is familiar with "seepage", both oil and water, from unmodified, stock castings. British alloy castings were notorious for these defects. In fact, in both of the Coventry Climax books I've read, Walter Hassan describes various methods used by the Prototype department to seal up expensive castings for their F1 race engines. Cosworth had the same issues, which prompted them to invent and patent a casting process engineered to eliminate casting porosity.
When I was building Jag V-12 based race engines 30 odd years ago, I had to establish a protocol for sealing ALL the bare casting with silicon silicate PRIOR to any machine work or assembly. This was to prevent the seepage from the stock castings, which had been "accepted" by the previous builder and the team. Unfortunately, this cost the team a couple of engines. The situation required "correction".
I seem to recall that a lot of bike engine powered vehicles have to deal with "seepage", both oil and water, as a matter of course. We'll see where we end up on that spectrum.
:cheers:
Fordboy
Just got back from the skunkworks. We checked the pan and found a couple of pinhole leaks on the weld. I needed to take the engine with, so we'll patch it up in a couple of weeks.
I'll be doing a trial fit this week to nail down the motor mount positioning. I'll post up some pics tomorrow on the fitment.
Mark,
Regarding you first point, the leak at the "end crater", I have made a number of aluminum water, oil and gas tanks and have never not had a leak at a "end crater". If there is a hole in the crater it does go all of the way through and it is a leak!
Hope you checked for leaks with water, for obvious reasons.
Rex
That's why it's a team sport . . . . . . Anybody who has ever worked in "Professional Racing", knows what I am talking about. :wink:
I've also learned I have a remarkably talented and patient team mate. :cheers:
Just pulled the engine out of the back of the truck.
The trip back from Illinois yesterday was incredibly windy and rainy - and bloody cold, as well. Hit a few slick spots on the way back, but got home safely and parked the truck in the garage.
I woke up this morning to about 4 inches of Widowmaker snow. They're called "Widowmakers" because of the number of heart attacks caused by overexertion. Probably the heaviest, wettest snow I've seen in years. Too heavy for the snow blower, and a genuine back-breaker to clear up.
What really irks me about this storm is that had it been rain, the streets would have been cleared of all winter road salt, and I could reasonable expect to start driving the MGB again. Normally by this time of year, I'd have a couple of hundred miles on it.
I've also learned I have a remarkably talented and patient team mate. :cheers:
I've also learned I have a remarkably talented and patient team mate. :cheers:
Yes you do!!! Sure wish I did.... but then again so does Johnboy... :roll: :cheers:
Oh shoot! Don't offer Stainelss beer. I have seen him do unbelievable things for the right beer.
John
31 years ago today, I picked up Kate in my 1st MGB and we went out on a date.
31 years ago tomorrow, the MGB was still parked in front of her apartment.
Oh shoot! Don't offer Stainelss beer. I have seen him do unbelievable things for the right beer.
John
31 years ago today, I picked up Kate in my 1st MGB and we went out on a date.
31 years ago tomorrow, the MGB was still parked in front of her apartment.
What broke on the MGB? How much was the towing?
How did you get to your home?
I suppose it was the MG owners tried and true alternative: Walking or hitch-hiking . . . . . . .
Sexagenarian doesn't mean what you think it does . . . . . :-( :|
Might consider rubber elbows in place of the straights, canting the throttle bodies upward, adding some length and making inlet horns/air filter possible?
Relief for the intake is in order - possibly negating air filters, but no additional length in the intake is foreseeable - not this year, anyway -
31 years ago today, I picked up Kate in my 1st MGB and we went out on a date.
31 years ago tomorrow, the MGB was still parked in front of her apartment.
What broke on the MGB? How much was the towing?
How did you get to your home?
I suppose it was the MG owners tried and true alternative: Walking or hitch-hiking . . . . . . .
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
". . . 970 Cooper Mini - A series block, BMW head, turbocharged - 160+ mph Bonneville run . . ."
Methinks it also helps that they're pullin' rather than pushin'.
Might consider rubber elbows in place of the straights, canting the throttle bodies upward, adding some length and making inlet horns/air filter possible?
Might consider rubber elbows in place of the straights, canting the throttle bodies upward, adding some length and making inlet horns/air filter possible?
http://www.siliconeintakes.com/30-silicone-elbow/?osCsid=930e9ab51f751a6f110a4ca55376c17d
Hmmmm . . . might actually be easier than I anticipated. :roll:
Mark, do we have an ideal intake length determined? I haven't been able to get Pipemax working since I refurbished my laptop.
And the rags too, don't ask!
Remind me to move the lacquer thinner away from my work area . . . :wink:
If you smell cloth burning, STOP and put yourself out. :-D :-D :-D
Ron
It would surely be annoying if it fell over. Maybe in ~7 miles that isn't an issue.
F
Chris;
You might want to "fishmouth" or angle cut the ends of the angle that your vertical tubes will be welded to. When an angle is straight-cut, the vibration is concentrated in one line along the weld. This leads to earlier fatigue failure that one cut & welded to the frame on an angle. That way the stress is distributed.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
+2 what Neil said.
You must get sick and tired of all the kibitzing going on....I know I do on my projects....but we are all with you, looking forward to some awesome performances coming soon to our local computer stations....
:dhorse: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
However, the Milwaukee Midget has a cage built around the LHD configuration, so I doubt that option is in the books for this car. :cheers:
My word; that's a deep dive into the cellars. Looking.....
Company service info doesn't recognise this level of detail for the LR model using K1.8. Rover is no more; aftermarket now supports all of those owners.
Turning to cumulative wisdom of those who were here during those days and are still here now;
To our understanding, the connector on the pigtail has three flat pins in a row. It's rectangular in cross-section. It has a moulding with two ribs on both long sides, one side close together, one side far apart (relatively).
Holding the connector with the far-apart ribs down and looking from the wiring side, so seeing the individual wires as they enter the 'back' of the connector moulding, pin 1 is the RH pin, pin 2 central, and pin 3 LH side.
In that context pin 3 is ground, pin 2 is signal, pin 1 is +12v.
It seems that the centre pin is signal, whether viewed from the pin side or the wire side of the connector moulding. Checking now if we have a view of polarity sensitivity...
It also seems the feature on the cam that the cam sensor sees is a step-up in diameter and a step-down in diameter 180' apart. It looks like a small balance weight, or a flange that's removed over half its' circumference. The sensor sees steel appear near to it, then disappear. The sensor signal will be a spike in one direction when it sees step-up in dia and steel appears, other direction when it sees step-down in dia.
So, if the collected wisdom turns out to be tosh but the sensor isn't fried then the signal will be wrong by 180' camshaft rotation.
Oh, did you perhaps get an engine harness on the donor motor? Guess not, or you'd have looked at that already.
More later...
Chris;
Murphy's Law applies to electrical connectors, too. Order a bigger connector than you think you need now. The spare pins will be needed someday.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
The upside to doing one own's harness is that I don't have to second-guess someone else's incompentencies - I can faithfully rely on my own . . .
Of those, the red lead is supply, the green lead is signal and the black lead is earth.
Hey Chris, it looks like you could use a diagonal off that vertical rectangular mount tube out to the skirt somewhere to stop it moving around during & after welding.
Sid.
Fuel Injection System Update . . . . . .
midget,
As I made you aware, the Holley EFI system you ordered arrived at T&T yesterday.
Porn, er, photos, :-D later . . . . .
:cheers:
Waytoobusyboy
This should stabilize any side-to-side nonsense.
Yeah, they're just L-brackets, but every little bit helps.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/958/42179494181_a805611641_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27gfW7i)Rightmount1.0 (https://flic.kr/p/27gfW7i) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/824/41458077874_2f875d5e60_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26avub7)Leftmount1.0 (https://flic.kr/p/26avub7) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
"Okay, keep er movin' . . ."
Uhhhmmm . . . . . Could you just bolt the inner end of those "torque rods" to the Chevy motor mount bolt?
That would still be technically single shear, but I'm thinking it would be stronger and eliminate redundancy.
Just my 2¢
:cheers: :dhorse: :cheers:
Waytoobusyandtiredboy
"Okay, keep er movin' . . ."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzksmTWPtDw
Chris;
Your L-brackets look too wimpy for a single shear application. I think they will bend too easily, I betcha! :-)
Can you replace them with thicker material or revise them to double-shear?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
The Pommy Pygmy Playhouse is somewhat limited. I've got a grinder, a drill and a jig saw, and . . . . . .
Insufficient angularity in the heim joint, different bolt diameter and need to leave room for header.
RE: Header flange Vs header primary pipe size.On it.
Just a quick reminder:
The flange ID is 1.375" ID, and the header spec calls for 1.25" OD pipes to start. I would solve this issue with a short length of 1.375" OD pipe (say 1-3 inches) as a "doubler" with the 1.25" pipe inside. Lots of quality headers are fabricated this way. 16ga pipes should fit inside each other without an issue.
I'm just getting worried. There's simply no time in the budget for me to continue making rooky mistakes.
The Pommy Pygmy Playhouse is somewhat limited. I've got a grinder, a drill and a jig saw, and . . . . . .
What's that you say? You have enough 22 mph Bonneville time slips? :roll:
Well . . . . . you have, more or less, complete access to a better equipped garage, AND, a very well equipped machine shop. Not to mention people who wish to see your project succeed and are willing to help . . . . . . for beer . . . . . .
Yeah . . . . the downside is: they are in an another state! But we are talking an hour travel time here, although you do need to learn:
A/ A different language . . . .
2/ To appreciate and love "flatlanders"
d/ Etiquette
Stop whingeing and get on with it. Need I remind you, THIS IS YOUR DREAM! (or nightmare, as it were . . . . HEY, I'm not a psychiatrist! Psychic, maybe . . . psychotic, probably . . . . I forget which is which . . .)
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Don'tmakemedriveupthereboy
1/2 thick.
The starter bolts are known to flatlanders alone . . . :wink:
I was not expecting the balance action to come about this quickly - THANKS, MARK!
The old pressure place has a small washer welded on to it to bring it into balance, as well. Meah - steel stamping - if all it took was a weld bead, that's actually pretty good, in my opinion.
I've got a stainless steel order to place with Burns tomorrow, and we should have a header to work with in a couple of weeks.
in case of a clash, how about a flexible line and a remote bleed point..?
100% agree with flexible line and remote bleed. All the hydraulic throw out bearings have them. Lifesaver. And a small "persuader" will help clearance on the frame rail in any case..... :wink:
Chris - the answer to your problems!!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyhook_%28structure%29 :roll:
You might consider a dry break fitting in the line from the master cyl. to the slave. It has worked well for me, the engine has been out 3 times and I have not yet needed to bleed the clutch.
Those slave cylinders are free floating 15/16" so just put a small C-clamp in it so you can bleed it off the trans & then bolt it up. If you pull the trans just unbolt it & put the clamp in or you can make a tool that'll go through the boot & hook around the bleeder to hold it together.
Sid.
This torque can disrupt cam and ignition timing to the point that the engine will not make the expected power. Your motor uses a "rope" drive for the cam and this can dampen much of this torque surge to the cams.
Weekend Update, uno . . . . . .
From the Wednesday morning Vulcan Mind Meld of 5/16/2018, (NO, I don't know what stardate that is . . . .) the mental gymnastics of one "wiggle pin" . . . . . .
Output from the brain of a terran . . . . . . . . NOT a Krell . . . . . . . .
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/978/27341886027_4fe0e8eb3e_h.jpg)
And I still can't get the terran to change his default dimensioning specs from a limit of 2 decimal places. Approved for production, nonetheless.
Things are happenin' below the dreaded . . . . . "cheddar curtain" . . . .
Und later: crankenshaften spinnin' ja.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Dimensioningco-ordinatorboy
Been a bit busy here, too.
I've got temp, oil and fuel pressure senders on their way - should arrive Monday.
Rather than run redundant senders, I'm looking to install one of these - pulls all of the information out of the ECU -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=154&v=DdIEZTQEkwE
That will save me a few days of rehabbing the dash and additional oil line plumbing, plus simplifiy the rest of the electronics.
Been a bit busy here, too.
Mark, let me know which type of Hylomar you're looking for - I'll drop by Pegasus and pick it up.
Well, I've been inflicted with some down-time.
I'm FURIOUS with Speedway in Lincoln. Ordered up a length of fuel rail, only to be told - and note this - late last Friday - AFTER the "Customer Assistant" had left for the weekend - that the supplier has pushed delivery back to mid June. I ordered it mid May.
If you have more stuff to be ordered, get me a list and I'll get it ordered through Motor State Distributing. T&T has an account and Motor State has the best prices of all of the online retailers. Plus, if it is in stock, delivery in 48 hours or less to Gurnee, IL.
:cheers:
F/b
Have you joined that "powered by Rover K" FaceBook site?
It's a "private" (like there is such a thing such as privacy on F/B :roll:) group.
Are you using the GM TPS that we looked at?
It will require a quick little machining operation.
Quick, little machining operation [note missing comma - when seconds count the cops are only minutes away] is called a double-negative oxymoron! :x :-o :-D
I know, 'cause the one I did yesterday took 3-1/2 hours! :cheers:
It will require a quick little machining operation.
Quick, little machining operation [note missing comma - when seconds count the cops are only minutes away] is called a double-negative oxymoron! :x :-o :-D
I know, 'cause the one I did yesterday took 3-1/2 hours! :cheers:
More proof that there are no "five minute jobs"!
Rex
Chris;
Are you going to coat your headers? I'm waiting to pick up mine from a local "Cerakote" applicator. Have you or anyone on this forum had any experience with this coating?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
Chris,
Speaking of your header, what did Burns come up with for your header design? For our 1000 cc Kawa and using 12,000 for red line they told us that the length should be 16.5 inches starting with a 1.5 dia from the port then expand to 1.625 then expand to 1.75 all lengths between the steps to be 5.5 inches long.
Duke will be starting on these as soon as the lump is back from Engine Dynamics.
Rex
On my s/u's I cut the top half of the butterfly shaft off , thinned the butterfly and knife edged it , used button head screws and ground them off even on the thread end and thinned the top where the allen wrench goes .. STEVE
If this were the Grenade, we'd be done.
Uhhh, as a racer, if you are done, you might as well retire . . . . . . And yes, I know what you meant.
In the world I choose to exist in, engine development, if you contend to be "a real racer", say somebody who holds a record, NEVER CEASES. Because if it does, you cease to be competitive.
I like this because the collector remains above the bottom of the frame rails and will give us easy access to the sensor.
Pickin' it up on Friday, pulling the engine Saturday morning, and hope to have the block back in Fordboy's capable hands possibly Saturday afternoon, provided he's not fly fishing . . .
In the world I choose to exist in, DEVELOPMENT NEVER CEASES. Because if it does, you cease to be competitive.
MM said: "... predetermined ohmage,..."Dear Comma Cop -
Chris, was it too much beer or just too late, although 9 or 10 in the evening isn't really that late, but ---
OHMAGE??
Chris, that gave me an idea for a new 'green' slogan so you can apply for federal disaster aid, "Racers Recycle Faster!" :-o :-DIt's kinda crazy, the number of recycled pro-audio pieces I've been able to integrate into this build. In the past, I've used a microphone jack for the crank trigger (a shielded 3 pin connector - better shielding than the usual auto-spec pieces it replaced), and a 4-pin XLR jack and plug for the tachometer - which hangs where the rear-view mirror was and plugs straight into the dash.
And the car is green!! :cheers: Hell, your whole project is recycling nirvana! :cheers:
"An edict has come down from Lake Lawn. MG3 members registered for 2018 GOF Central in Delavan need to know that Lake Lawn Resort requires those showing their cars need to PROVIDE and place a sheet of cardboard under their vehicle during the Friday car show, in order to protect the grass. Our reputation precedes us." :roll:
Mark, your age is not displayed so I am guessing that, with this birthday, you are officially in geezerdom?
John
IR manifolds experience fuel standoff due to pulse rate & it's not uncommon to see a fuel cloud outside the velocity stack at a given rpm range.
Sid.
Chris, I prefer the oil filter adapter mounted so the filter is below it.
That way the filter can be filled with oil before installation and its less mess when removing it.
Don
Thanks again for taking us along on this adventure. :cheers:
Chris you may have seen this
Geezerdom? What is it anyway? I sense an "endless" debate, for which I no longer am willing to expend the "energy" . . . . . .
I am missing a transmission that may be another 7-10 days. I need to leave 8/6. :-o You have yet to have an engine make smoke (good kind, not what you let out of wires and other stuff accidentally :roll:). I am really pulling for you to make it. Counting on being able to pay Mark the suds I have for him (and you) in the pits early in the meet. Keep at it. Will be following things. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:We're pressing on, Jack. At this point, I'm simply working on what I can, and so is Mark.
I was going to ask if you had the specialist Lucas part # 530433 on hand for your re-wiring but Dash is in and wired, and SHAZZAM, all the switches work suggests you are not using any Lucas bits.
Has Lord Lucas made it past 7-segment character displays? :roll:
trusty hands of UPS with a "possibility" of delivery Wednesday,
Emphasis mine. Surely is an oxymoron.
For this reason I drove 5.5hrs yesterday and paid more in tax than the shipping cost to get my trans.( they did it sooner than suggested) to avoid the "trusty hands of UPS" 8-)
We can do it, but we're at the point where we can't afford any surprises, and I can't make any miscalculations.
Is the cylinder bore OK?Bore is fine.
It will require a quick little machining operation.
Quick, little machining operation [note missing comma - when seconds count the cops are only minutes away] is called a double-negative oxymoron! :x :-o :-D
I know, 'cause the one I did yesterday took 3-1/2 hours! :cheers:
This is a testament to Mark's machining skills.
I received the ring from Hastings yesterday, and I brought it down to the shop today.
This was the second ring - cast iron. Diameter was good, as was the thickness, but the radial wall thickness was about .006 too thick. We put it on the piston, and it simply wasn't going to work - it extended past the piston.
We're under the gun, so Mark made a fixture, TAPED the ring to the fixture, and brought the ring into spec. So by using only the tension of the sleeve and green 3M masking tape, the ring was rightsized.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/928/43653937452_234351f155_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29vxQJ1)1532790859772.temp (https://flic.kr/p/29vxQJ1) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
Yes, we lost the chamfer on the inside, but I spent some extra time and energy with some emory cloth and put a touch of relief into the inside edge. It's in the engine, and we're rolling with it.
And yes - we're still pressing on.
It will require a quick little machining operation.
Quick, little machining operation [note missing comma - when seconds count the cops are only minutes away] is called a double-negative oxymoron! :x :-o :-D
I know, 'cause the one I did yesterday took 3-1/2 hours! :cheers:
Yep! That's the way it works. And to substantiate your point, the average time that the "small, quick projects consume on this project has been 3 to 4 hours, EACH.
And there are a few more of these quick, little projects, still left to accomplish . . . . . . .
Racers are the most "optimisty" primates on the planet . . . . .
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Tryingtoberealisticboy
Where's it say when the push truck has to turn off?Having been accused of the push truck trying to get a time slip-on the broadcast radio- and in a MG product- I can appreciate this. :roll: :-P
As I remember, a real good push would have let the Midget go faster than his first timed pass.
This is truly inspirational you guys are having to much fun I enjoy keeping track of all your progress and the occasional set back and how your able to rebound from those set backs. Dealing with the ring issue is truly amazing especially when its a 10 minute job. Im looking forward to seeing everything in person hopefully next week. :cheers:
Yabut . . .
I've lost track of what's gonna happen when (hopefully).
Are you anywhere near schedule?
Yabut . . .
I've lost track of what's gonna happen when (hopefully).
Are you anywhere near schedule?
... final cylinder head work...Umm... some secrets not being shared? Where on the head did you reference bore centers (needed for O-ring groove cutting)? I don't even see any dowel holes in the head. How does the head locate on the block's deck?
,,, And this is how it's done...
... final cylinder head work...Umm... some secrets not being shared?
,,, And this is how it's done...
Where on the head did you reference bore centers (needed for O-ring groove cutting)? I don't even see any dowel holes in the head. How does the head locate on the block's deck?
Tell me more about putting receiver grooves in the block. I've never had a problem with them in heads. And- if O-rings want to fall out of their grooves during assembly (no way turn off gravity), I'd hate to be faced with lowering the block onto the head. :-o
Mark - put a reserve on the dyno room for Tuesday, please.
Chris, I'm free till about 1:30 Saturday. Can I help?
Don
Copy that.
My compadre here at Select Sound Service (Your Total Communications Company ©) is finishing up the work we started in Racine yesterday. I expect he'll be back by 1:00, at which point I'll navigate the construction barrel and New Jersey Barrier strewn cattle chute that is I-94 heading toward the aboriginal land of Men and Warriors.
Figure 2:00 - 2:30.
What weight of break-in oil do I need to pick up at T&T?
Appreciate y'all are racing against time but more engine porn please.
what day and time is Dyno?
Chris and I talked about a dynothon a few months ago but put the idea on hold during the build. Now tht Dyno Day is upon us -
Wanna do a quick Dynothon, Chris?
And wrapping the exhaust with the lava rock wrapping won't work for you .?? It makes the exhaust touchable !! STEVE
And the water / oil lines also ?? STEVE
Chris:
The right decision but I don't have to like it. I was looking forward to visiting with you.
BR
Don, if you look for Chris at World of Speed you're likely to be disappointed. :wink: He's talking about World Finals. :cheers:
Wayno
And wrapping the exhaust with the lava rock wrapping won't work for you .?? It makes the exhaust touchable !! STEVE
And the water / oil lines also ?? STEVE
To all of the supporters and followers of this project:
This has been a VERY difficult decision for Chris. And, frankly, things are not quite as simple as they sound. No photos have been posted yet, and they might help "visualize the issues", but some further explanation can help . . . . . .
A/ The K16 is physically MUCH larger the the "A" series "Grenade" it replaced, even though the K16 is very compact for a 4 valve engine. The increase in engine size decreases the space available for the
larger volume of accessories for the K16 engine. And this does not account for 4 throttle bodies Vs a 2 choke carb, etc, etc . . . .
2/ It has ended up being a 5 pounds of . . . . "stuff", crammed into 3 pounds of space. This, of course, can be accomplished. But there are always dividends paid for "detail attentiveness". This has been difficult
to accomplish on the separate development track we used to try and save time and effort.
d/ "Detail attentiveness" is going to require rethinking, perhaps re-locating, and perchance re-fabricating some accessories or support systems. Sounds simple enough, but it requires time, and time is the thing in
which we have the least amount available.
z/ Anybody who has ever gone off racing ill prepared, (so that's pretty much everybody . . .), and then has had an opportunity to go prepared, recognizes the difference. And the difference in time, trouble and results,
is readily apparent. This is a lesson most racers do not need to learn twice . . . .
Since one of the things in question here is the risk of an oil system related failure, and an oil fire possibility, the time needs to be taken to have the oil lines properly proof pressure tested after assembly. For everyone's peace of mind. Chris has already had one oil line failure, on FrankenSprite. It just wouldn't do to repeat that scenario. It is always the smartest thing to recognize your own limitations, and have something done professionally, if you are not confident in your own ability. I can not agree more. I value "smartiness" over "stupidy", all the time.
I'm glad Chris has the "courage" to be smart, in spite of our desire to attend SpeedWeek.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Mark
The EFI kit from Holley included the wrong O2 sensor. The manual indicates an 8 pin unit, specific to the Holley system - and they sent me the 7 pin auxiliary unit intended for dual exhaust systems along with the 8 pin. Wrong number - no appearent way to make the 7 pin work.
And of course, the packaging says that it's non-returnable if opened.
Well, it looks as though it IS the correct piece, and is actually the preferred O2 Sensor.
The EFI kit from Holley included the wrong O2 sensor. The manual indicates an 8 pin unit, specific to the Holley system - and they sent me the 7 pin auxiliary unit intended for dual exhaust systems along with the 8 pin. Wrong number - no appearent way to make the 7 pin work.
And of course, the packaging says that it's non-returnable if opened.
Don't believe everything you read... Call them up and ask them how you use that one.... I'll bet they exchange it.
Kind of like a computer manual. They read like you are an expert and understand everything when in reality you don't even know where the on switch is.
Ron
Kind of like a computer manual. They read like you are an expert and understand everything when in reality you don't even know where the on switch is.Most manuals are written by people who know what they are doing for people that know what they are doing! :x :roll: :x :roll: :x
Ron
... CAN Hi...I recognize that one, only because I just looked up CANbus on WIKI. Pretty good write-up there. [People who deal with cars newer than mine are probably familiar with CANbus]
People who deal with cars newer than mine are probably familiar with CANbus
Okay - I have a fairly high degree of confidence that the harness is finally correct.
It was about 9:00 last night that I finished it up.
As I didn't want to disturb my neighbors during the Packer-Bears game, which would be sacrilege on the west shore of Lake Michigan, and Kate wasn't around to man the fire extinguisher (heaven forbid), I've elected to screw up Monday Night Football for the neighborhood, so tonight, I'm going to attempt to fire it up.
Nobody here cares about the Lions or the Jets.
I'll keep you posted.
deuterostome blastopore.
"Beginning with the premise, ‘Trust nothing and nobody,’ I sent the Swiftune #SW2307 camshaft to Elgin cams to be reverse engineered. We discovered the camshaft provided was much closer to a streetcar/autocross design instead of the full-on road race cam we requested.”
What's advertised and what it is aren't always the same number.
Of course, once you've INSTALLED IT and discovered either no change or a decrease in power, it's not returnable.
ALWAYS CHECK CAM SPECS.
Mark checked the specs on the Piper Cams we put in the K. They were spot on.
It's always preferable to send a camshaft back with a printout of the factual dimensions compared to the fairy tales offered up in the brochure. It makes it easier to shove it up their deuterostome blastopore.
And seeing as Nick Swift of Swiftune has the fastest racing Mini Coopers on the planet, is it any surprise that he's not sharing the good stuff?
I find it "helpful" to follow the instructions of the engineers who manufacture the parts I use, but hey, that's just me and you should do whatever works for you.
Fordboy
deuterostome blastopore.
deuterostome blastopore.
Uhhmm, is that some kind of Catholic sacrament?
:dhorse:
Neveranaltarboy
But it's bed time for Bozo . . .
But it's bed time for Bozo . . .
:?
(http://www.artprintsplus.com/filestore/vintage_movie_posters/bedtime_for_bonzo_1951.jpg)
:evil:
Mike :cheers:
... output from the Holley HP for the ignition is 5 volts. My MSD coil packs are triggered by 12 volt...Do you have four 50 watt NPN transistors handy? If so, add a few resistors to build a collector-follower amp for each coil pack- 5v in, 12v out.
Do you have four 50 watt NPN transistors handy? If so, add a few resistors to build a collector-follower amp for each coil pack- 5v in, 12v out.
midget,
Is it alive yet?
:cheers:
Oktoberfestboy
Guess you'll be the light green hornet killer soon! :x :-( :-D
Is there somebody out there in or near London (England) who might be able to check out a piece of machinery (a Sunnen valve grinder) for me?
Supposedly a machinery dealer in London. Address is close to Holborn Viaduct & Farringdon Street.
Any help would be appreciated. Trying to make certain the dealer is not a scammer.
Thanks in advance for any help. Liquid compensation available . . . . . . :-D
:cheers:
Fordboy
Message me the details. It’s not far from me at all and I can check it out for you. That address is right in the centre of London by the way.
Chris, if he's a vet -- could he supply some medical-grade nitrous to make the evening go better? :evil:
Time to admit to a checkmate.
Still no spark, although I believe I fixed the cam sensor issue.
I'll attempt to pull down a system log tomorrow and see for sure, but if it didn't start today, there's simply not enough time to get it finished by next Saturday to get on the road.
So next August will be the opportunity.
Time to admit to a checkmate.
Still no spark, although I believe I fixed the cam sensor issue.
I'll attempt to pull down a system log tomorrow and see for sure, but if it didn't start today, there's simply not enough time to get it finished by next Saturday to get on the road.
So next August will be the opportunity.
Have you ever considered coming to the El Mirage lakebed in Southern California ?
We have our (two-days of racing) season ending event November 9-10-11th, and would love to have you race with us...
Another month of sorting issues would do wonders right now I'm sure....
I hope to see this car run one day as I've been following your build for quite a while now,,,, and it is first rate...
El Mirage is about a 10 hour drive from Bonneville for scale...
Robert
Red Baron Race Team
Seems like we might owe you some brew after the sharing of the Mead.
sounds like your computer needs a hard reset....
If pushing the on/off button for 10 seconds doesn't work, then it is off to the farmer in the Dell....
I think you got off lightly; imagine faffing about doing that on the salt under an awning. Or, not doing that. I bet we'd hear the outbursts from another state.
More evidence of recognising the impossible, eh?
My word; that's a deep dive into the cellars. Looking.....
Company service info doesn't recognise this level of detail for the LR model using K1.8. Rover is no more; aftermarket now supports all of those owners.
Turning to cumulative wisdom of those who were here during those days and are still here now;
To our understanding, the connector on the pigtail has three flat pins in a row. It's rectangular in cross-section. It has a moulding with two ribs on both long sides, one side close together, one side far apart (relatively).
Holding the connector with the far-apart ribs down and looking from the wiring side, so seeing the individual wires as they enter the 'back' of the connector moulding, pin 1 is the RH pin, pin 2 central, and pin 3 LH side.
In that context pin 3 is ground, pin 2 is signal, pin 1 is +12v.
It seems that the centre pin is signal, whether viewed from the pin side or the wire side of the connector moulding. Checking now if we have a view of polarity sensitivity...
It also seems the feature on the cam that the cam sensor sees is a step-up in diameter and a step-down in diameter 180' apart. It looks like a small balance weight, or a flange that's removed over half its' circumference. The sensor sees steel appear near to it, then disappear. The sensor signal will be a spike in one direction when it sees step-up in dia and steel appears, other direction when it sees step-down in dia.
So, if the collected wisdom turns out to be tosh but the sensor isn't fried then the signal will be wrong by 180' camshaft rotation.
Oh, did you perhaps get an engine harness on the donor motor? Guess not, or you'd have looked at that already.
More later...
... I should be able to apply voltage to the unit and see a signal output voltage (or change in output), by simply hooking it up to a meter and passing a piece of steel past the face of the sensor...I'm seeing nothing...I know nothing about the unit you're dealing with. I only have a comment about a Hall effect device, which is basically just a Hall effect transistor with appropriate voltage regulation, etc. Its output is merely the collector of the transistor, which conducts to the emitter (grounded) when a magnetic field is present. Depending on the device, you might need to add a pull-up resistor (1k or so) between the output and +12v, in order for a voltmeter to display an output signal.
The unit Holley sources is a Cherry item.
I went through a ridiculous dance with Holley trying to get dimensions for their unit. All I needed were the physical dimensions - just like ANY OTHER AFTERMARKET CUSTOMIZABLE PIECE OF HARDWARE FROM ANY DAMNED SUPPLIER.
My question was:
"I'm looking for a dimensional print for the 554-117 hall effect sensor. Please e-mail me a pdf. Thanks."
The response was:
"Thanks for contacting Holley Technical Support.
No, unfortunately I cannot send you any internal engineering drawings as they are proprietary.
If you have any other questions or concerns feel free to reply by email or if you need immediate help call our Tech Line at 1-866-464-6553."
So I called 'em up again, and said, "Look, I'm not building a damned small block Chevy, this is a custom application, and I have no idea whether or not I can physically make this piece work without a print."
So he hims and haws around and says, "Do you know who makes this part?"
I said, "I just viewed a print of a similar unit made by Honeywell."
"Well, Cherry supplies us with these, so if you want to dig around on their site, perhaps you'll see something that looks familiar".
And I did.
And I found it, along with a print.
And then I found a supplier other than Holley - at about 30% of what Holley wanted to charge.
Here's the deal - I'll pay for good service - but I'll take the deep discount for disservice.
Holley just left $70.00 on the table.
Could you annoy the neighbours just enough for a short video? :-D :-P :evil
Well done!
FINALLY!
Nobody was more surprised than I was, but I hit the starter, and I swear to God, the 1k K is running!
It's too late to bother the neighbors any more, and it isn't idling for jack Subaru, but it sure doesn't sound like I expected it to. I was expecting it to sound like a Honda CB900 or something, but man, it sounds almost like an Iron Duke - Much deeper and throatier than one would expect from a 1 liter.
I'm well past the apex for 2018, but I did make the corner, I'm a lap down, and I didn't hit the hay bales, so I guess I'm still racing!
:cheers:
FINALLY!
Nobody was more surprised than I was, but I hit the starter, and I swear to God, the 1k K is running!
It's too late to bother the neighbors any more, and it isn't idling for jack Subaru, but it sure doesn't sound like I expected it to. I was expecting it to sound like a Honda CB900 or something, but man, it sounds almost like an Iron Duke - Much deeper and throatier than one would expect from a 1 liter.
I'm well past the apex for 2018, but I did make the corner, I'm a lap down, and I didn't hit the hay bales, so I guess I'm still racing!
:cheers:
Metric minutes - multiply by 25.4! :-o :-o :-o
I was told it's a ten minute job . . . :roll:
Metric minutes - multiply by 25.4! :-o :-o :-o
I was told it's a ten minute job . . . :roll:
Chris, for what it is worth... you are about to break 500 as well on this thread. Have not looked completely but I do not believe there are too many 500 page build logs on this or any forum for that matter. Have to ask Slim if you are the first to 500?
When it happens, The Midget hits 500, pages that is. :-o :cheers:
BR
My word; that's a deep dive into the cellars. Looking.....
Company service info doesn't recognise this level of detail for the LR model using K1.8. Rover is no more; aftermarket now supports all of those owners.
Turning to cumulative wisdom of those who were here during those days and are still here now;
To our understanding, the connector on the pigtail has three flat pins in a row. It's rectangular in cross-section. It has a moulding with two ribs on both long sides, one side close together, one side far apart (relatively).
Holding the connector with the far-apart ribs down and looking from the wiring side, so seeing the individual wires as they enter the 'back' of the connector moulding, pin 1 is the RH pin, pin 2 central, and pin 3 LH side.
In that context pin 3 is ground, pin 2 is signal, pin 1 is +12v.
It seems that the centre pin is signal, whether viewed from the pin side or the wire side of the connector moulding. Checking now if we have a view of polarity sensitivity...
It also seems the feature on the cam that the cam sensor sees is a step-up in diameter and a step-down in diameter 180' apart. It looks like a small balance weight, or a flange that's removed over half its' circumference. The sensor sees steel appear near to it, then disappear. The sensor signal will be a spike in one direction when it sees step-up in dia and steel appears, other direction when it sees step-down in dia.
So, if the collected wisdom turns out to be tosh but the sensor isn't fried then the signal will be wrong by 180' camshaft rotation.
Oh, did you perhaps get an engine harness on the donor motor? Guess not, or you'd have looked at that already.
More later...
I reposted Forker's post because I'm very grateful for his research, but this damned cam sensor is where I'm STILL stuck.
"Company service info doesn't recognise this level of detail for the LR model using K1.8. Rover is no more; aftermarket now supports all of those owners."
This probably explains how I was able to get the entire engine shipped from a Birmingham breaker to the United States for ~$750.00.
The sensor is described and sold as a hall effect sensor - 3 terminals. That said, I've also seen it advertised on a few aftermarket sites as a magnetic sensor.
All hail the aftermarket . . .
Yeah, I know - my monkey, my circus.
Electronics guys - check me on this - I'm trying to avoid a brain-fart.
So the confusion is this - There is a magnet in the sensor itself, which I believe biases the output of the sensor. (:roll:) I'm hypothesizing that when the ferrous cam lobe - a 180 degree half-moon arrangement described by Forker - passes the face of the sensor, this action causes a change in the flux field produced by the magnet built into the sensor housing, and produces a signal seen by the ecu.
Now if that's how it works, I should be able to apply voltage to the unit and see a signal output voltage (or change in output), by simply hooking it up to a meter and passing a piece of steel past the face of the sensor.
I'm seeing nothing.
The reason I'm sounding this out is that most of what I read about hall effect sensors used in automotive applications state that the magnet is separate from the housing. I know that's how the Pertronix ignitions work, and all of the hall effect components that Holley sells uses this same method.
One other thing - I think both Forker and I have assumed that this unit is 12 volt, but I'm reading a lot of stuff about automotive hall effect sensors operating on a 5 V reference. I can't find a confirming resource on this part, and my fear is that I may have blown this piece out.
Any thoughts?
Midget looks a bit haggard, no doubt mostly due to "job pressures" . . . . . . 'cause we all know racing is nothing but FUN! ? ! ? ? ? ? ? right?
Chris, it looks like you're the second LSR nut to do 500! :-o :-D :cheers:
Chris, don't go too low on fuel pressure.... high 30s... 38, 39 would be a minimum. Better to adjust injector PW... the more you do it, the easier it gets.
:cheers:
Chris, don't go too low on fuel pressure.... high 30s... 38, 39 would be a minimum. Better to adjust injector PW... the more you do it, the easier it gets.
:cheers:
Bob, I was thinking of doing the math to get the pressure down to where they would deliver about a 20lb/hour at 80% duty cycle. That's what virtually every calculator I've used tells me I should be at.
You're advising against that method.
Are you thinking fuel spray pattern and atomization issues at the lower pressure? :|
I'm on it, oh long-suffering, but now elated fan of the Chicago Bears. Best defense in the division. Might be a bit better than that after Turkey day . . .
In fact, I'm a bit ahead of the curve, in that I did get the water drained out and replaced with anti-freeze before playhouse temps nosedived. x-lent
As to beating a dead reindeer - all one needs to do is drive at twilight on any given Wisconsin trunk highway with your Go-Pro on, and with a little time, you'll have sufficient footage to make your own GIF.
Happy Thanksgiving, to all who missed my note yesterday.
"BTW, turning the crankshaft to vary the valve spring load is is a good idea for all race engines that remain assembled. The formula for rotation degrees for 4 strokes is: 720/# of cylinders = rotation amount every 2 weeks."
So for a single cylinder, 720 degrees/1 every 2 weeks. Won't that put it on exactly the same valve spring position? Of course, for a single cylinder motor, we can just put it at TDC on compression stroke and the valves will all be closed anyway!
Tom
We got about a foot of snow the day before Thanksgiving -- and dang it, almost all of it has melted. WTF is going wrong?? We usually have a foot or two on the ground by now. . .
I've always had good luck with these: Marvel Mystery Oil & STA-BIL (22001) Fogging Oil for Engine Storage. :cheers:
Chris,
A FYI https://bangshift.com/bangshift1320/saab-sonnett-bonneville-record-holder/
Nick
Hi Milwaukee Midget & Fordboy,
Do you have any updates for us? I have been following this build for years as a guest and have finally joined the forum now that I have my own project.
Did you ever sell the A series engine? I would have thought it would have made a great formula junior motor or something similar.
Cheers,
Christian
Here is a link to Gary Gray's FaceBook page, which has some more information about what has happened in I/GT and the new I/MGT.
https://www.facebook.com/gary.gray.9828/posts/2419449534795287?comment_id=2562906990449540&reply_comment_id=2568123116594594¬if_id=1551124685318346¬if_t=feed_comment_reply
You might need a FB account to view the thread, and you will certainly have to expand some of the replies to see all the comments.
Here is a "bone" for fans of specialized tools . . . . . .
This flywheel turning tool is designed for English Ford, Lotus Ford TwinCams and Cosworth Ford 4 cylinder engines and their various flywheel diameters, tooth counts and offsets, but the design can be adapted to anything.
Machineyboy
Fordboy- are you manufacturing and marketing these gizmos, just showing us your ingenuity for us to copy or it is available somewhere else? :lol: :wink: :cheers:
Has the Nissan arrived yet?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I had all the motor mount bolts come out of a Jeep Cherokee a while back within few hundred miles of new. Engine flopping around a bit. ;) Lots of options here, as Woody says. :evil:
There is no finalization... he is only legal in one class.... I/MGT according to the new rules...
I hope they gave the initial record in I/MGT class to the current I/GT record holder and gave the I/GT record back to the Midget. I guess we will know when we get the record books. :cheers:
Chris,
Records will follow the car. A car that is a current GT record holder but now does not qualify due to an engine swap will become the new *IGT record holder.
DW
So Dan - how does the rule committee propose to investigate who ran what motor in any given year a record was set?
Think about this -
Tom Donney took the I-GT record at WOS this year. He did it with a swapped engine.
I had the record before with a destroked stock engine.
What you're proposing would imply that Tom would now have the record in a class he didn't run in or build for, lose a record he legally won, and I would get my record back?
Is there a precedent for this?
Dan, I really think this sounds like a worm can.
Chris,
The class you refer to didn't exist at the time the WoS was run, still doesn't. It is a simple matter of calling upon the collective memory of the LSR community to determine the status of the current GT record holders.
We are here to help you, trust us.
DW
There is no finalization... he is only legal in one class.... I/MGT according to the new rules...
I hope they gave the initial record in I/MGT class to the current I/GT record holder and gave the I/GT record back to the Midget. I guess we will know when we get the record books. :cheers:
Here's what they've posted for records:
Unblown Grand Touring Sports - /GT
B Duffin Brothers Ro. Duffin 9 /11 236.937
C Jan Berry Motorsports Ru. Duffin 8 /08 230.545
D SS & PF Racing C. Filler 9 /18 235.272
E P.O.P. Motorsports G. W. Phillips 8 /06 190.156
F RGS Motorsports R. Sirna 8 /16 190.759
G Team Siegel L. Siegel 8 /11 165.296
H Grey Beard Racing P. Swanson 8 /03 145.760
And it stops at "H".
The new records for the new category read as follows:
Modified Grand Touring Sports - /MGT
AA The Moore Boys B. Moore 8 /04 268.298
A The Moore Boys B. Moore 8 /06 253.632
I Saab Story T. Donney 9 /18 127.660
J Saab Story T. Donney 9 /17 123.765
So both of Tom's records migrated, but he is running an engine swap. I've talked with him, and he's cool with it.
But under this logic, I'm not sure why the Midget was pulled - I don't think a short stroke A Series constitutes and "engine swap", especially when the block itself was the one that came with the car when I purchased it.
Does production not permit the swapping of crankshafts?
I could argue that the Midget was about the closest to a "stock" specification on any car in GT.
So do I become the whiny guy from Wisconsin bitchin' about a lost record?
On December 17, Dan said:Chris,
Records will follow the car. A car that is a current GT record holder but now does not qualify due to an engine swap will become the new *IGT record holder.
DW
* By "IGT", Dan was referring to what has now become "MGT" - the class name hadn't been determined at that point.
My response was this:So Dan - how does the rule committee propose to investigate who ran what motor in any given year a record was set?
Think about this -
Tom Donney took the I-GT record at WOS this year. He did it with a swapped engine.
I had the record before with a destroked stock engine.
What you're proposing would imply that Tom would now have the record in a class he didn't run in or build for, lose a record he legally won, and I would get my record back?
Is there a precedent for this?
Dan, I really think this sounds like a worm can.
Dan got back to me the next day:Chris,
The class you refer to didn't exist at the time the WoS was run, still doesn't. It is a simple matter of calling upon the collective memory of the LSR community to determine the status of the current GT record holders.
We are here to help you, trust us.
DW
So I guess I need to become that Whiny guy from Wisconsin bitchin' about a lost record . . .
Which is not what any of us wanted . . .
Midget, write the SCTA Board a nice letter telling them you feel slighted by their omission of your record.
... [post] #7554 (nasty tin can by assembly worker noises) relates to #7546 Nissan pickup truck noises...Oops... I had read that but then forgot about it.
Midget, write the SCTA Board a nice letter telling them you feel slighted by their omission of your record. Since yours is the only legitimate (as of now) I/GT record since 1979. By the way that is when a Bug Eye Sprite owned it at 92ish. I think everyone since then had a swap.
Outside engine architecture determines swap, not inside.
Maybe it was just a typo :roll: or you are not from California :-o :cheers:
Chris, I sent you an email requesting you to look over the records (I sent them with the email).
I understand now that you had other issues to deal with at that time.
No one is trying to leave anyone out of their legitimate records, so please send either Keith Copland or myself the information you have so we may make any corrections necessary to the rule book.
Thanks,
Hope you are doing better.
That was December . . .
Physically, I'm feeling better each day, but to be honest, given the lack of concern regarding the class with the powers that be, my enthusiasm has waned considerably. I'm too close to done and too invested to back out, but I'm feeling a bit like Roger Maris.
Part of my frustration was allayed today when I actually got the Midget to fire up and run long enough to burn my fingers on the headers. Tuning this set-up requires getting it to run so it can self-diagnose and monitor itself off of the O2 sensor. From there, I can at least have a baseline to tune from - and that it's running in the car itself is huge, in that it proves the fuel delivery system in addition to the system wiring are working.
June 30th - still no response.Quote from: Milwaukee Midget link=topic=17213.msg319639#msg319639
I really think this sounds like a worm can.
[quote
That was December . . .
Physically, I'm feeling better each day, but to be honest, given the lack of concern regarding the class with the powers that be, my enthusiasm has waned considerably. I'm too close to done and too invested to back out, but I'm feeling a bit like Roger Maris.
Part of my frustration was allayed today when I actually got the Midget to fire up and run long enough to burn my fingers on the headers. Tuning this set-up requires getting it to run so it can self-diagnose and monitor itself off of the O2 sensor. From there, I can at least have a baseline to tune from - and that it's running in the car itself is huge, in that it proves the fuel delivery system in addition to the system wiring are working.
And I want to add that there is a certain Texas resident who has been very supportive of the effort to return to the previous record.
He also campaigns what I believe to be the "killer car" for the class.
OK Gary, go get the record at SpeedWeek! Best of luck and best wishes. Wish we could be there to see it happen.
Go fast, be safe and let that rice grinder rip!
:cheers:
I just checked the 2019 SpeedWeek Program -- it lists MM as record holder in I/GT.
(Musta been a premonition.)
Hi, Don -
Yes, the new modified GT class - not happy about it, but I'll give it a go.
Off work this upcoming week - hope to get it to a steady idle in the garage, and might see if I can run it down to T&T if I can't, although that would require a solid day getting the trailer and dragging it to Illinois.
A lot of computer work - everything works, it just doesn't work right.
I'll have a better idea by Wednesday.
Fordboy. It wasn't Larry Moulton's old Turner by chance, was it?
If it was, that Turner won several National SCCA Championships. I was living in Salt Lake (Sandy) when Larry was campaigning the Turner and got to know him quite well. I was driving Darwin Christensen?s G Production Spitfire at the time. Gobs of fun but always a long tow to the nearest road circuit.
John
"Turner".....now there's a name I had not heard in years.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
John, he was still at Dave Strong Porsche last I heard. 50+ years now, I believe. He and his son Bonner run M squared karting locally. Larry's wife passed away a few years ago. When he ran the Turner, the machine shop I worked at sponsored him. Darwin Christensen was also a good friend. He passed away a while ago.
When I saw my picture on the side of a milk carton, I figured I should probably check in with my friends.I thought I saw it on a recycled oil jug at the surplus store! :-P :lol:
Hopefully you took a torch to the lens on that phone.
Eat cake, lots of cake.
Hey Mark,
Congrat's on reaching another milestone :-)
If I can ever make it back there's more Austrian falling over water available
Neil
I am COMMITTED to getting the Midget back into fighting shape.
It definitely has that stored on the west coast look about it!!! :-D :-D :-D
Are you thinking of doing anything with it or just acknowledging that you know where it is?
Pete
Chris, do you remember me telling you I had a Midget in High School, well I found it in a barn about 20 miles away.If it wasn't BR Green to begin with, it's slowly taking on that hue!
"I've always hated roofs."
Especially in Milwaukee in the Winter. :roll: :cheers:
Wayno
Welcome to Mark's little corner of Koozebane.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51247807311_1449bb01fe_5k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m5ApEF)20210614_180420 (https://flic.kr/p/2m5ApEF) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51248001843_9114f7b50d_5k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m5BpuF)20210614_085721_Burst01 (https://flic.kr/p/2m5BpuF) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
It's positive that I know there are two basic personality types in the Dunning-Krueger effect, but just when I thought I had my place on the spectrum plotted, something stupid happens, and I need to reevaluate my position.
After pulling the violated exhaust valve and replacing it, we returned to checking lash on the cam buckets. Exhaust is supposed to be .010, and going through the lobes we're good until we hit the 3 cylinder, second valve.
.017??!!??!!
I have NO IDEA WHERE THIS CAME FROM, but lodged between the valve and the seat was a small piece of very stiff wire, possibly from a wire brush?
One on one, with friends and colleagues, I'm not above making crude comments. I do make every attempt to read the room before I say something vulgar, and while I've been cuffed in the ear by Kate on a few occasions for speaking my mind, I genuinely try to not air such thoughts in public forums such as this.
But given my level of frustration, I am compelled to proffer this thought in the form of a question which I will not voice an answer to:
What does this thing left of the penny look like to you?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51248858530_ffbe824393_5k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m5FNa9)20210614_201900 (https://flic.kr/p/2m5FNa9) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
IT was easily accessible from the exhaust port - Mark grabbed it with a pair of needle nose plyers, and I gave the tappet a quick wrap with a socket and a rubber hammer. AGAIN, we checked for leakdown and were at ~ 2%. For a freshly reattached head on a cold engine with about an hour of break-in time, that's great.
Back to it tomorrow.
Welcome to Mark's little corner of Koozebane.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51247807311_1449bb01fe_5k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m5ApEF)20210614_180420 (https://flic.kr/p/2m5ApEF) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
You might consider getting a push off to about a 100 MPH to at least the one. And then use the two gears that are the closest together with an appropriate rear gear. Just a thought, probably not a good one.well I do remember some wag announcer saying my push truck was trying to get a timing slip too. First long course run after qualifying on the short and the throttle cable had come loose so pas de power. Now I get scared with my big pickup pushing me to 50 for fear of getting sideways and T-boned. Other than that, sounds like a plan to me Stan. :cheers:
The 1 liter that Pork Pie set his record with was running 13.3 - 13.4 AFR... Pentroof 4 valves like to be a bit leaner than the 2 valves that like that 12.2 range....
It sounds like the motor likes the revs, the limit is the valve train... if Mark thinks it has the spring to run 11 or 12K then you might want to go there... after you try 10K and hopefully set the record. The 1K Porkpie used reved to 12.5K, I had Pork Pie shifting at 11.8K. When we put it in BJ Burkdoll's truck we turned it up to 13.2 and shifted at 12.5.... It is still together...
Hey it's just a race motor... rev the piss out of it, that's where the HP is.
Bob - Rex - I'm not nearly as worried about the engine as I am worried about this -
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51255212205_4e331c172f_5k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m6fmTg)20210617_205234 (https://flic.kr/p/2m6fmTg) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
If this were a streamliner or a lakester where I did not have to worry about drivetrain compliance with respect to suspension travel, I'd lash it to a Hewland Mk-VII and be done with it.
But while it is short (23 1/2"), lightweight and recently serviced and balanced, I question the wisdom of 10K with a live axle on leaf springs.
The transmission has 17 passes on it at Bonneville after a rebuild with straight cut gears. I'm thinking of having a scraper tack welded to the inside cover to alleviate windage - especially seeing as it's likely I'll need to spend more time in the lower gears with higher input shaft revs.
Yeah, I know - I'm not running a mid-70's late model at Knoxville, and it's not going in a stern-drive speed boat. Even when the big boys rut the salt, it tends to be smoother than the alley behind my house - but I do think I need to proceed with some caution.
Talk it through - think it through . . .
It all comes back to Harold's quote - "Problems are almost always a sign of progress".
One advantage a mid-engine layout has is no driveshaft to worry about.....
Actually you have two, and they can be problematic! :-D :-D :-D
I'll point out a few things here - at least as I understand them. I'm certain Mark will join in when his ears stop ringing.
Note the torque curve - it hovers between 63 and 67 ft lbs from 6,300 to 9,500 rpm, and was showing no indications of rolling off any time soon.
Horsepower, of course, is a function of torque and revs - and as long as the torque remains constant or doesn't fall off, as the revs climb, so does the hp.
So what does this mean for our attempt this year? Well, let's look at what's worked in the past. Mark superimposed the Grenade graph onto the K graph -
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51249281577_044db7ff51_3k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m5HXV4)GrenadevsKseries (https://flic.kr/p/2m5HXV4) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
We tested in a much narrower range with the old A-Series, and it gave a LOT more torque below 7,000 AND better power numbers - UNTIL 7,800 RPM. That's where air flow and electronic fuel injection start to really show their mettle.
We set the rev limiter at 10,000. It appears that the way we'll need to drive this thing is to just simply wring it out in the lower gears and hope 4th doesn't drop us below what the A-series gave us - the 3-4 is right there in that pocket where the two engines power curves cross.
The upshot is clear that this effort is in need of shorter overall "gearing" to likely exceed the existing record. Or, as was previously suggested--just wring it out in 3rd!
At some point in the discussion I believe someone said an overdrive ratio was available in the trans--can this be an underdrive? A 4th gear ratio of 1.18 rather than 1.0 would produce about the same situation as the speculated 5.0:1 rear end ratio.
Another couple thoughts:
1) What manner of transmission(s) were normally fitted to the K? Any non-sidewinders?
2) How about going larger diameter tires? See attached.
Well y'all have just about bench raced that thing till it needs an overhaul.... You have more power available at higher RPM.... So take it to the great white with a smaller set of tires as spares and see what it does...While this is true, Stainless, we all know that there is more HP and speed available bench racing, let alone records, why spoil the fun with reality? :-P :cheers: :cheers:
I'm sticking with my 133.6 HP at 11.5K... run it down the track and figure out what you need to do... I say wring it out in 1, 2, and 3rd and set the record, shift to 4th if there is any track left... the front part of the track is where you get speed.
Let's go racing boys... :cheers:
Hey don't get me wrong... I could spend Chris's money with the best of ya... but I'd prefer he spent it on good whiskey, and shared it with me :naughtyLet's see what the local distillery has on tap this summer . . .
Better change the rev limiter.....
"With 4.22 and available tires, 10500+ in 3rd with the 22's, 11000+ with the 21's."more than the record.
. . . is what speed?
I betcha you didn't know that Nate Jones has the keys to a battleship. A real one. Really. Ask him for the story.
I betcha you didn't know that Nate Jones has the keys to a battleship. A real one. Really. Ask him for the story.
He mentioned his mom was from Green Bay.
I suppose you dated her at one time?
Didn't the Spridget community panic when H Todd Wheeler showed up at the Runoffs in the 70s with Lola gearsets adapted to his stock gearbox? I know you and Mark have relationships with Spridget folks in the SCCA and MWCSCC communities?Any possibilities with some CenDiv racers? My relationships dissolved after Istopped racing Spridgets in '80. PS: Hi Mark, it's Vic, former Apex customer.
Hey, if you don't like the rpm the prop shaft is going to turn, replace it with a chain and sprockets . . . . . .
Speaking of changing rear gears . . . years ago we thought the answer was PosiTraction! Turns out it was only good for sight-seeing.
...also, don't let your brake pads drag on the rotors.
Some considerations on differentials:
Open diff = equal torque to wheels Welded diff = equal rotation to the wheels
"...since you are going in a straight line."
Welded diff OK as long as rollout is matched and the straight line is the desired direction. If deflected from the desired direction by any number of possible causes, the diff will resist steering correction. Mismatched rollout (in as-raced condition, with operator weight) will induce a directional bias and imbalanced steering response.
Welded diff on a poor surface, with loss of traction on one wheel, the "good" wheel will induce a torque on the chassis tending to cause a change of direction. Open diff on poor surface, wheel thrusts are equal (assuming balanced rollout) but reduced. Little effect on directional heading.
Given ultra short Midget wheelbase, directional stability probably a plus, but hard to say welded diff wouldn't be satisfactory. On a marginal traction surface or where Hp can overwhelm traction available, either diff would produce the same thrust. Welded thrust advantage would only occur in one-wheel loss-of-traction situations.
Another consideration is how much rear axle wheel load is transferred right-to-left due to the solid axle, driveline torque, and suspension stiffness. [Who's got some strain gauges?]
I'm intending to measure the rollout with the open diff in place in the alley behind the house. I'll chalk the tires and measure out 5 revolutions and take an average.
midget,
For your laptop:
https://superflow.com/windyn-data-viewer/
Did not try the download myself, as I already have copies. You NEED to follow the installation instructions to the letter.
Dynodataboy
midget,
Drive arrived in mail today.
Will copy files when I return to T&T after vacation. Will then return to your location above the "curtain". NEED to lower my BP & drain my "coping bucket" a bit.
Too many members of the "Dunning-Kruger University" out there. It's a interpersonal problem for me, never have dealt well with omnipotence . . . . .
Fishyboy
I've always liked that jingle - and what a great moniker for a beer! Take a swig or two and burp -- the noise sounds like the name of the brew. . .
Tangent: Blatz was/is a bland, light, and kinda sweet drink that is pretty generic. I used to stage a beer-tasting contest (a blind test, like "The Pepsi Challenge", yanno) when we'd have the gang visit, and dang near every time I tried it -- Blatz was the most popular choice. This was way back - like the 70s and 80s, when Heiniken was still exotic and Coors was imported by a buddy who brought some back from his trip out west.
Yes, those were the days when every local Milwaukee neighborhood street intersection had 4 beer taverns: Blatz, Miller, Pabst, and Schlitz. All on tap. You brought your growler to take home and keep in the ice box. The local hot rod club was the Schlitzers. Augie Pabst had a terrific sports car career. Milwaukee had a great auto racing history!
So their slogan is drink lots of Huber then Uber.... it will Lyft your spirits :cheers:
So Chris, I guess you will be sharing cheap beer and good whiskey with all your friends at Bonneville.... Oh and party crashers like me!!!
yes Jerry it's Friday
midget,
For your laptop:
https://superflow.com/windyn-data-viewer/
Did not try the download myself, as I already have copies. You NEED to follow the installation instructions to the letter.
Dynodataboymidget,
Drive arrived in mail today.
Will copy files when I return to T&T after vacation. Will then return to your location above the "curtain". NEED to lower my BP & drain my "coping bucket" a bit.
Too many members of the "Dunning-Kruger University" out there. It's a interpersonal problem for me, never have dealt well with omnipotence . . . . .
Fishyboy
Made a foray to T&T yesterday, to pick up some bits. "Reducing my presence" (and stress level) from what it was . . . .
Took your drive and copied all 100 or so of your data files from 2013, 2014 and 2021.
It's winging its' way to you, courtesy of the USPS. Analyze to your heart's content. You are going to have to "cross load" the 2021 data files to Excel to interface with your Holley data, unless the Holley analytics allow loading of outside data. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable with the Holley system can advise. Forget T.O., can't do it.
TTFN
:cheers:
Huh! https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Koozebane (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Koozebane) :friday
Mike
Huh! https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Koozebane (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Koozebane) :friday
Mike
Huh! https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Koozebane (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Koozebane) :friday
Mike
Koozebane
Astrographical information Region - Outer Rim Territories
Sector - Calaron sector
System - Koozebane system
Grid coordinates - T-9
FOUND IT!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51294085853_c17c37ab31_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m9FAEz)koozbane (https://flic.kr/p/2m9FAEz)
A cursory check of the tracking # (YEAH, I won't send ANYTHING without a tracking #), lists your package as: In transit, arriving on time.
NO planetary information was available . . . . . . BUT, perhaps an assumption of 3rd rock from the Sun, may have been a stretch . . . . . . .
Chillin'onKoozebaneboyelder (guess it's time for a change . . . .)
Tow-Bar Tip -- Motorhome "whiskers" on the back of the tow vehicle keep the front of the race car clean. You can keep them on all week with no service.
You can put it on at home -- it also keeps the trailer cleaner on the way to the pits.
Combo tow bar/air dam from a nice piece of "angle iron" very agricultural!
Glad to hear you got the problem solved. Since you upgraded the rev limiter I think you need to update the Tach and add a 12 onto the display.
Tom G.
Glad to hear you got the problem solved. Since you upgraded the rev limiter I think you need to update the Tach and add a 12 onto the display.
Tom G.
Nigel Tufnel only went up to 11.
Nigel Tufnel only went up to 11.
I am stealing that budget turn plate idea! Thanks.
Chris:
I am stealing that budget turn plate idea! Thanks.
I have had starter motor eating flywheel gremlins. I think I have it fixed this time. Waiting on a flywheel from Quartermaster and the engine can go back in. I can't get on the wheel dyno until the 21st but should be ready after that. We are headed out on Tues. Sept 7th looking to arrive at WoS by mid-day Wed. I'll be headed across from St. Joseph, MI.
BR
Nice lazer trick. How did the cats like it?
Chris:
I read where there will be no race gas supplier at WOS. How much fuel do you need for the Midget? I guess I will need to bring at least a drum of 110 about 10 runs. I think I will try and find a VP distributor or Sunoco race gas seller out west to buy a drum from. Maybe I can pre-pay and pick it up on the way by. What are you doing for fuel?
BR
The facebook communication I saw said they would test qualifiers and record gas. So I am sure they will. And they should.
Factory toe-in is 1/8" - I'm at 1/4" and I'm fine with that. If it had stock 145 80R 13s on it, it would probably be closer than when it rolled off the line at Abington on Thames.
HEY!!
JUST ENOUGH toe-in to be stable, 1/16 to 1/8 inch TOTAL, depending on the "slop" in your front end.
More "slop" = more toe-in
REMEMBER THE "2 FINGER PUSH RULE" . . . . . . . .
Nice lazer trick. How did the cats like it? Laura's canine rats chase a lazer spot on the carpet 'till they are dizzy. Great fun for her and mom. :roll:
:cheers:
Rambling musings from a Bonneville virgin . . . . . . .
Followers of MM's build diary might recall that the previous best run for the "Milwaukee Midget" was 118.693 mph. This year's new "Best Run" was 126.684 mph
So during the 1600 miles and 21 hours crammed into the "Dodge" (masquerading as a tow vehicle) the conversation inevitably turned to: "THE QUESTION"
"Where the hell did the 8 mph come from?"
Some obvious thoughts that occurred to us:
1) Old bhp 95.1; new bhp 99.1, for a 4.2061% increase. Since velocity increases as a cube function of power, 1.62 mph could be allotted to power increase. :-)
2) Push start to 30/35 mph. This probably helped, but how do you quantify it? :?
3) Tail wind at the start line. Pretty constant 7-9 mph with gusts to 14 mph. This undoubtedly helped, but again, how do you quantify it? :? Also, consider that the
backup run was into a 8-10 mph headwind, and that did not totally kill it. So ? ? ? ? :?
4) Aero gains. This year the car is about 1 inch lower in the rear and 2.5 inches lower in the front. Had to help overall CD number, but how much? ? :?
5) Drag reduction gains. :-)
A) Lower viscosity fluids; engine, trans, diff. :-)
B) Higher fluid temps. Used magnetic heaters to preheat engine oil and diff fluid. :-)
C) Brake drag reduction. Well, no more front brakes!! And backed off on the rears. :-)
D) Trick wheel bearing grease. Some NASA developed stuff used for racing bicycles. :-)
E) Change front toe-in from 1/8" in, to zero. :-)
F) Change tire pressure from 50 psig to 70 psig. Seemed to help rolling resistance, but again, :?
G) On a totally subjective note, 'the car' has become quite easy to push. Once it's rolling, one person can keep it going with a mere two fingers . . . . :-)
I guess I'm going to have to start punching numbers in to my copy of "Bonneville Pro" to try to gain some insight on this.
In the meantime, I'm going with part of my signoff remarks, (the one I changed the color on this morning):
"Does paying attention to all the 'little details' matter?" "I dunno, but I think you should ask the guy who finishes second . . . . ."
:cheers:
Fordboy
idle curiosity; that's probably a lot of tests. they all take time. what is the test protocol, in this context? how is gasoline tested in ECTA terms etc? MON/RON? density? speciation? what's the go/no go data set?
no, I don't have a copy of the rule book.
F
... a fellow named John Salisbury...
... Can't make that up...
? ? ?
One large - 180 degree on-off is what the sensor provides with each revolution of the cam.Ok, I guess that is what your ECU wants. Is just different from my usual understanding of what is common ie not any system I am aware of. Course that is me, not what is out there. :oops: But with that, it seems to me the system could be half a crank rotation off before the thing figures where it is. Anyway, don't mind me.
I need to take lessons from you on being pleasant in the face of adversity.
Chris, you sayin' they were not discussing camshaft dynamics? :?
I need to take lessons from you on being pleasant in the face of adversity.
Well, I don't know how pleasant I was tonight. For the first time in 38 years, Kate called me a jerk. . ., and my sister didn't disagree . . . :roll:
Chris, you sayin' they were not discussing camshaft dynamics? :?
I love the octagonal racing number on the doors - that is proper attention to detail; lovely looking Midget.Ask Chris about his choice of font :-)
I/MGT
I didn't see that before; I MidGeT - too cool.
Chris, I guess we are in the minority. Frankly, I think the Midget is Number One .........or at least Number Six.
Wrong show and wrong Lotus (hmmm, is there such a thing?) but yes, Emma Peel was to die for.
Now let's keep this in mind - the Midget hasn't driven 20 feet under its own power in 7 years. It had received a new engine, the driveshaft was shortened 2", the alignment was probably good, but uncertain, the brake system had been reconfigured - EVERYTHING with the exception of the wheels and tires was an unknown.
I'm sorry to hear that you had such a litany of problems. I'm not a fan of digital instruments, in my opinion they just add unnecessary complication and another potential source of problems. I'm sure you will get things figured out and be back next year. Good luck.Thanks, Neil.
Chris, don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-digital technology but many times it seems to be applied for no other reason than its "new". Adding more complex systems add potentially more complex problems. If there is a good reason to go digital, do it but too many just see it as adding "bling" to their ride, primarily street squirrels.
Hey Chris, no one looks at all that stuff during a run anyway.... they are useful for data afterwards and during dyno work. Hopefully you have it turn the screen red if something is out of kilter to tell you to quit.
During the run you are too task saturated to absorb all that info... but you can't have too much data for analysis.
The meal looks great but the real question is is there anything really interesting in those brown bottles?
Too much automotive history has been dumped on the scrap pile!
the Blue Flame is well protected here in Sinsheim.... :-D
the Blue Flame is well protected here in Sinsheim.... :-D
Under Pork Pie's watchful eyes, I have no doubt. :wink:
the Blue Flame is well protected here in Sinsheim.... :-D
Under Pork Pie's watchful eyes, I have no doubt. :wink:
....with so friends you need no enemies..... :evil:
MM, if you had that much over-travel you might want to check the corresponding thrust face on the crankshaft! :-o
Don't axe me how I know! :-P
Further, the stroke of each has not been addressed. How much travel is required at the slave and how much is available at the master? Would a pedal stop be of any use?
Chris, you could put the Midget in 1st gear and crank the engine over with the starter. Push in the clutch to the point where the car stops rolling forward and that's where your clutch stop needs to be. QED
Hey Chris, does Cometic make a MLS gasket for your MGB?
Hey Chris, does Cometic make a MLS gasket for your MGB?
A. Out of stock with all known suppliers.
B. Not scheduled for production any time soon.
Copper will be fine - worked for Phil Hill in the MG EX-181, and he pushed a lot more boost than my little street motor ever will.
Eat until it hurts, then have two pieces of pie - that's my plan and I'm sticking to it! :evil:Eat the pie first, Woody - as uncertain as things sometimes are, I've determined I'm not going out without dessert!
Eat until it hurts, then have two pieces of pie - that's my plan and I'm sticking to it! :evil:Eat the pie first, Woody - as uncertain as things sometimes are, I've determined I'm not going out without dessert!
Meah . . . it's all done.
I have no way of accurately checking .002 in situ.
Went with copper, sprayed the hell out of it, clamped, heat-cycled, retorqued, readjusted lash.
Lost .002 in lash on the retorque with the copper gasket. Went from .015 to .013 cold. THAT I can confirm.
If it gets to the point where it continues to be a problem - ie, it gets to the point where I need to pull the engine - it'll be replaced with somethong [sic ? ?] more substantial.
More likely need to be sold before that, though.
Happy Thanksgiving to everybody.
Chris,
You are watching too much Pornhub, and not enough of the Motor Trend Channel.
JMHO
Oh - by the way - I received a new set of 21 lb injectors last week to replace the 36 lb pieces we attempted to make work.
21 is slightly larger than what the motor requires but these should be trimmable at 43 psi fuel pressure rather than barely workably at 29 lb's at a 40% duty cycle - which apparently didn't work.
Chris, many years ago, I had a Shovelhead HD, damn thing ate oil, several rebores later, the problem persisted, eventually I discovered that once the heads got hot, oil was pulled thru the pores in the alloy, from an oil return, into the intake port, which I discovered after heating the heads in an oven I noticed oil bubbling out of the alloy ever so slightly, it turned out that when relieving the heads to accept a higher(er) lift cam, plus porting, left 2 poofteenths of very porous cast alloy between the bottom valve spring retainer, & the intake port,,,that discovery took several years to pinpoint
Tiny
We had a great time on your birthday...
Oh... Happy Birthday :cheers:
I got ahold of Steve Demirjian at Race Engine Development - he sleeved the K six years ago, and says he can take care of it. So the K will be winging its way back to sunny Southern California in the next few days. Best timing might see it done in 8 weeks.
I recently saw a hour-long documentary about him on PBS. What a story! If anyone gets a chance at it, it's terrific.
1drink
"The result - nothing goes clunk when you turn it." This is good! :wink:
The last time my engine went "clunk" it turned out it was a couple of teeth missing on my flywheel.
"The result - nothing goes clunk when you turn it." This is good! :wink:
The last time my engine went "clunk" it turned out it was a couple of teeth missing on my flywheel.
I get it, Neil.
The fixes themselves are often easy, but the headache is the work involved getting it to the point that you can access the easy fix.
If I can paraphrase Woody, "It's the 10-minute jobs that take all day"
YIKES!!! So many ways to go wrong!
:cheers:
midget,
If there is any question AT ALL of proper camshaft timing, PUT A DEGREE WHEEL ON IT AND CHECK TO BE CERTAIN.
NO HYSTERICS, NO HARANGUE, JUST DO WHAT YOU NEED TO BE CERTAIN.
At a minimum, double check TDC using a dial indicator with an extension. If TDC checks out, cams should be OK, if you used the thicker gasket.
The proper tools are in my toolbox @ T&T. Loan out to you for the asking.
And before you reply about "complexity" or "time available" or ? or ?, CONSIDER the "replacement cost" . . . . . .
Jus' sayin' . . . . that: "A dead horse won't run."
:dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
:cheers:
Now back to my bottle of 3Floyds Robert the Bruce
Gee, I wonder where the super trick timing pointer setup came from? Hmmmm . . . . .
Oh, you mean THIS one . . .
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52293381057_8d992d3fe7_4k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nEZfje)2022-08-18_10-59-19 (https://flic.kr/p/2nEZfje) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
Didn't Mike Hart make that?
:roll:
... I'll bet that's the way Isky did it in the 50's...Not quite. It was still the fifties when Isky went to computer-generated profiles to precisely control maximum acceleration and jerk values. And still in the fifties when Ed first offered 7075 alloy rods.
... I'll bet that's the way Isky did it in the 50's...Not quite. It was still the fifties when Isky went to computer-generated profiles to precisely control maximum acceleration and jerk values. And still in the fifties when Ed first offered 7075 alloy rods.
I hope the guy in the video uses hydraulic lifters, because he surely didn't create any clearance ramps on those lobes!
I remember my dad telling me about welding and grinding cam lobes in the 40s and 50s and how spoiled we were now to be able to thumb thru a catalog and pick out what we THINK we need.
Long time no hear.
Longer time no see.
Hope to fix those this year.
Stan
Progress in spite of your efforts! :evil:
Harold would be proud of ya! :-D
Hang in there like a 3 toed sloth! They have a "unique" perspective.
:cheers:
f/b
Guess what I learned today?
I learned how to operate a fire extinguisher . . . :roll:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52914606022_0e309c7e85_4k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oBTbRu)2023-05-21_04-47-06 (https://flic.kr/p/2oBTbRu) by Chris Conrad (https://www.flickr.com/photos/137682296@N04/), on Flickr
Hoping to vent the exhaust out of the garage and dial in a respectable idle - something I've done in the past with no real concern - it appears as though the exhaust hose may have had too abrupt a turn/curve in it exiting the exhaust outlet.
At first, I couldn't quite figure out why it had gotten so much louder . . .
Anyway, I'll come up with a work-around - just not tonight.