Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 3295722 times)

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Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3375 on: November 30, 2013, 01:08:06 AM »
DaveL- that's clever. But space is at a premium, and half-width (at most) idler gears might not be robust enough.

My version merely shuttles the single idler gear about the crank/cam centerline. A 16 crank-angle-degree range only changes the gear mesh about .001", so I built it to give a mesh-clearance range of .001"-.002".

It's based on the Cam-a-Go system designed by Ollie Morris in the mid-sixties and sold by Ollie and his partner Fred Offenhauser. I did discuss it with Ollie before I began, to avoid any infringement or bad feelings. Cam-a-Go actuation was via a piston displaced by engine oil pressure- which retarded cam phasing at higher engine speeds. A cable-controlled manual valve was also provided to allow a street-or-strip selection from the driver's compartment.

One reason I'm not trying hard to sell it, is that someday (following more pressing projects), I'd like to alter the design to use helical-cut gears to quiet it down. I'll need to consult with a gear-designer, since the small diameter of the idler may rule it out.

Chris- yes, the "test mule" was a mild street engine (9:1, hydraulic roller) with plenty of piston-to-valve freedom.

    (I apologize for hijacking your thread. But with 200K+ views, I like the odds of some hoarder of trumpet-pipes to see this!)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 01:40:56 AM by Jack Gifford »
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Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3376 on: November 30, 2013, 01:25:06 AM »
... I would rather check it & set it...
My system can be used that way. But the beauty of it is that it takes merely seconds (literally) to set a different cam angle for another dyno pull. The brake on the worm-drive motor is spring-applied and solenoid-released- so with power disconnected, it ain't gonna move!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 01:27:47 AM by Jack Gifford »
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Offline DaveL

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3377 on: November 30, 2013, 01:35:25 AM »
Jack, the small asymmetrical photo tricked me. the gear train appeared to be compound. Hence the two idlers, one driven, one driving.
Cheers.
Dave.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3378 on: November 30, 2013, 07:56:49 AM »
Jack - no apology necessary - If it ain't about beer, MGs and weirdness, it's about solutions.

I LIKE it - although yes, I would see where it could be a noise maker.

As far as trumpet pipes are concerned, everybody here blows their own horn in some way or another.  :cheers:
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 08:23:27 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3379 on: December 09, 2013, 09:18:49 AM »
Midget,

Thank you to both you & Mrs. Midget for the brunch & visit on Sunday.   Both I & Mrs. Fordboy enjoyed your company and the largesse of "Beerhaven".

I want the Captain's study for my basement, including the hidden panels.   I'm going to opt for different sayings/proverbs though . . . . . . .

BTW, I now claim the record for the slowest travel time from downtown Beerhaven to the "ranch".   3 hrs, 31 minutes because of the I94 shutdown.   Saw video of the crash site this morning . . . . . .         Happy to have gotten home safely, regardless of the time factor . . . . .

Think I'll have a "Beermosa".
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3380 on: December 15, 2013, 01:44:27 PM »
PRI – Killer show, boys.

Took in three seminars – data collection, wet sump recovery and flow bench – caught up with Podunk (THANKS AGAIN for the spindle and hub work, Terry!) and Woody, AND finally met David Vizard and Harold Bettes.

I was totally geeked.

Came across some solutions.  Caught some face time with Uwe Schuettler from Electromotive.  I’ve been having difficulty storing dyno runs on my computer.  It’s my thought that it is likely operator error on my part, but I haven’t been able to take the time to figure out if it is actually me, a software problem, or an issue with the ecu.  When you’re paying for dyno time, it’s not cost effective to be looking for computer errors on your laptop.  Besides, the engine cools off, and you have to start over.

There are a couple of issues at play, but chief among them is that I spend so little time with the engine in the car or on the dyno that by the time I get around to logging a run, I’m a little insecure with the procedure.  I have NOT been able to save a recorded session.  Uwe tells me they have a crank trigger simulator which will emulate a running engine, which will give me the opportunity to actually practice recording engine events.  If in fact I’m doing it right and there’s a problem, at least I’ll know to start digging deeper into the software – which is something I can do on my own time.

I also got a little face time with Harland Sharp – and right out in the middle of their table they had the BMC 1275 rockers I struggled to make fit about 4 years ago.

The conversation went something like - “Those things don’t fit, you know”, followed by a long, awkward silence.  It’s my hope that putting a grumpy face in front of them might wake ‘em up.  I agreed to send pictures – again.  The good news is that they have started producing the pedestals in steel rather than aluminum, and they now have hex screw adjusters available, which will make dialing in lash a lot quicker.  So it was – “sorry you had difficulties – but we have more crap we can sell you.” 

Well, I guess it IS a trade show . . .

Schumann, a company out of Iowa, has come up with a pretty cool method of bypass oil flow recovery for modern GM stuff, but I instantly saw how it could be applied to the Midget.  What he pointed out at the seminar is that on a lot of newer engines, the oil pump sits higher in the engine than on earlier V-8s.  The farther away from the pump you need to draw the oil, the more power it requires.  The kit’s they’re producing changes out the bypass plunger with a ball (doesn’t stick – a trick that BMC had used on the Cooper S, and which I have already incorporated on the Midget), and plumbs the overflow from the HP bleed into the intake line of the pump, rather than further south, back into the pan.  The upside is four-fold. 

First off, the oil being reintroduced into the pickup is not as heavily aerated as oil drawn from the pan.  Secondly, it permits the oil in the pan more time to dissipate the air that it has accumulated.  Third, it makes the system somewhat self priming.  4th, it gives you more pressure on the intake side – pressure above atmospheric - which takes the power you’ve already spent pressurizing the system - the portion that's being bled off - and lowers the power necessary to pull oil back into the pump.

In the Midget, the pickup needs to draw about 12” to the pump.  In a Cooper, the draw is probably closer to 18”.

The downside is that I could see the oil running a bit hotter, but after chatting with David Vizard, it’s likely I need to get my oil a little warmer anyway.

It’s an incremental gain at best, but I’m looking for every Newton I can grab at this point. The cost of a bung welded to my pickup, a tapped oil return with a fitting and a section of HP hose is an experiment cheap enough to warrant further investigation.

Rick Touchette RTS Tooling was there, and he did the presentation on flow benches.  It started out as just a flow bench 101 type of a presentation, but the last 10 minutes turned to his pressure differential valve, which monitors flow through the valve and seat area, and get’s you a pretty good picture as to how your seats are flowing.  It’s just a hollow valve with a bleed hole on the edge of the valve seat, set up in a repeatable fixture.  He’s had it on the market for about 6 years, but I think it is one of the craftiest diagnostic tools I’ve ever seen.

http://www.rtstooling.com/home?s=

Fordboy was out reengaging old acquaintances and making inquiries – he wound up loading many pounds of catalogs into the back of Dodge – probably a good thing – icy on the way back – we needed the traction.

In 3 days, I doubt if I saw 1/3 of it, but what I did see, I was able to get some direction from.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Tman

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3381 on: December 15, 2013, 01:54:41 PM »
Sounds like a worthwhile trip for you! :cheers:

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3382 on: December 15, 2013, 02:43:15 PM »
Chris,
The comment "The farther away from the pump you need to draw the oil, the more power it requires."  is not based upon good engineering. The power required to pump a fluid is: HP=GPM x PSI/1714 in a suction situation like a pump inlet the PSI would be the differential pressure to draw the oil into the pump which is a function of the height of the pump above the oil level and also the pressure drop through the inlet tube based upon the fluid's flow rate and specific gravity. Reducing the inlet height by 12 inches would reduce the differential pressure by .35 PSI (assuming that the oil has a spec gravity of .8). So if you screw your pump flow and use .35 psi as the pressure into the HP equation you can see the number is minuscule. Maybe not a place to spend time looking for horsepower.

Rex
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3383 on: December 15, 2013, 03:06:32 PM »
Chris,
The comment "The farther away from the pump you need to draw the oil, the more power it requires."  is not based upon good engineering. The power required to pump a fluid is: HP=GPM x PSI/1714 in a suction situation like a pump inlet the PSI would be the differential pressure to draw the oil into the pump which is a function of the height of the pump above the oil level and also the pressure drop through the inlet tube based upon the fluid's flow rate and specific gravity. Reducing the inlet height by 12 inches would reduce the differential pressure by .35 PSI (assuming that the oil has a spec gravity of .8). So if you screw your pump flow and use .35 psi as the pressure into the HP equation you can see the number is minuscule. Maybe not a place to spend time looking for horsepower.

Rex

Thanks, Rex.  Those are my words - I'll own 'em - and I am not an engineer, so please excuse my sloppiness with the language.

Yes it is minuscule (French derived spelling) - but so is the potential for horsepower gains with where I'm at on this thing.  The low hanging fruit is already in the crib - It's going to take a boatload of miniscule (British derivation - germane to the engine at hand  :-D ) improvements at this point.

I'm seeing this as a better use of energy wasted, reintroduced to the system as less energy required.  

There's also a scraper and windage tray in my future.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 03:10:12 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3384 on: December 15, 2013, 03:28:41 PM »
Scraper/windage tray: Sometimes hard to see the hp but occasionally significant gains can be had. If you don't have a source already, talk to Kevin Johnson at Ishihara-Johnson (www.crank-scrapers.com). He made a custom one for me. They take some work to get the closest fits but are well done.
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Offline wisdonm

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3385 on: December 15, 2013, 03:29:15 PM »
Anybody mention electric water and oil pumps? Saves everything.
Stand on it....brakes only slow you down.

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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3386 on: December 15, 2013, 03:41:35 PM »
Chris,
"minuscule" or "miniscule" I never could spell and my spell check gives the "french" version so that's what you got! and it still says that the British derivation is wrong.

Guess I'll have to polish up on my frog!

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3387 on: December 15, 2013, 04:09:43 PM »
Chris,
"minuscule" or "miniscule" I never could spell and my spell check gives the "french" version so that's what you got! and it still says that the British derivation is wrong.

Guess I'll have to polish up on my frog!

Rex

Just picking on you, Rex - both spellings are correct.  :-D

Anybody mention electric water and oil pumps? Saves everything.

Didn't look at any at the show, but seeing as overheating wasn't a problem this year, I'm looking again at the Moroso style belt drive for the water pump.  I know they don't keep up with a V8, but hey, I don't have one of those.

The Moroso motor itself looks a bit chintzy, but maybe some other 12 volt motor could be hung where the alternator used to live.

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3388 on: December 15, 2013, 04:30:18 PM »
Scraper/windage tray: Sometimes hard to see the hp but occasionally significant gains can be had. If you don't have a source already, talk to Kevin Johnson at Ishihara-Johnson (www.crank-scrapers.com). He made a custom one for me. They take some work to get the closest fits but are well done.

Good call - they already build one -

http://www.crank-scrapers.com/BMC.html

Sizing will be a bit different - my crank is custom - but at least I'll know that the pan bolts line up.

Thanks, Jacksoni!
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Captthundarr

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #3389 on: December 15, 2013, 06:21:17 PM »
Crank Scraper = tirm,fit,trim,fit,trim,fit,trim,fit,trim,fit tadaaa worth the effort.
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