Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 3275891 times)

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4620 on: November 02, 2014, 01:34:37 AM »
Recognizing the limitations, what CR would you like to see? Realistically. (yah, yah, as much as you can get etc, I know) 4 valve, pent roof, central plug all help combustion processes but what does Mark think would be nice? Real world?

Realistically, I'm more worried about the right combination.  That's what will determine the CR.

I have no idea what the piston top displaces, what the combustion chamber volume is, or what cam characteristics we'll need to make it work.

I do know we'll be able to pick up a few CCs on the piston top design . . .

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4621 on: November 03, 2014, 08:17:41 AM »
Recognizing the limitations, what CR would you like to see? Realistically. (yah, yah, as much as you can get etc, I know) 4 valve, pent roof, central plug all help combustion processes but what does Mark think would be nice? Real world?

Realistically, I'm more worried about the right combination.  That's what will determine the CR.

I have no idea what the piston top displaces, what the combustion chamber volume is, or what cam characteristics we'll need to make it work.

I do know we'll be able to pick up a few CCs on the piston top design . . .



Just off the top of my head, (yep, I got a haircut), ahem, something like 13/1 C/R or 13.5/1 C/R static.  But I want to do some simulations with accurate cylinder head flow numbers, so that a reasonably accurate idea of V/E can be assessed.  I'm expecting that the V/E will be in the 112%/115% range, BUT, this could change, given the 40% displacement reduction that is planned.   AND, there may be other unknowns at this point in time, since we are just in the process of measuring, checking, etc.   Because of the engine's type, some things like severe head skimming, are probably not good ideas on this engine . . . . . . . although they work fine on other engine types.

If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on:   13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R

That is YIPE!*!* territory, even with an engine type that applies a "good" head gasket "clamp load", and this one doesn't.   So one of the other steps is going to have to be to calculate "effective" C/R by bringing the proposed camshaft into the equation.

What I don't want to happen is:

Peak torque @ 9,000 rpm, combined with,

Peak bhp @ 10,500 rpm, just because we didn't bother to plan ahead.

You know, stupid sh**

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Will@Apex

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4622 on: November 03, 2014, 11:39:22 AM »
"Apex Automotive was opened by Bill Truesdale in 1973 for one reason...he couldn't find anyone to do the kind of work he needed done on his race car. A 1967 Lotus Series II Europa."

http://www.apexae.com/about/index.html

Mike

Absolutely true.    Bill got tired of being f'ed around by the likes of the "Wizard Works" and "Speed Performance".

 :cheers:
Fordboy

{British Persona}Quite right, old chap!{/British Persona}

I had made the website before I had a clear understanding of the history of this old place.  Before I "knew" Mark (I'm sure I met him as a kid...3 decades ago!).

That poor website hasn't been updated in ages...it just sort of languishes.

In any case, congrats on a great run at Bonneville!  We got a postcard with the achievements proudly listed :)

Offline Rob

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4623 on: November 10, 2014, 11:41:04 PM »
Chris,

I ran across this story from Moss Motors today and thought it worth sharing.  You could almost halve your frontal area using the same trick!  :-D

Cheers,
Rob


"Not often do great love stories involve East German fräuleins, machine gun toting guards and an Austin-Healey Sprite. But there are exceptions - sometimes even two - to what happens when true love gets interrupted by international politics.

It is almost impossible to believe that 25 years ago the Berlin Wall fell signaling the end of an era in a city divided since 1961.

Seeing news reports this morning commemorating the fall of the wall reminded me of a story that appeared in the LA Times when I was in high school about a series of escape attempts to the west involving an Austin-Healey Sprite.

Through the wonders of the internet and an eidetic memory here is an excerpt from the article -

WEST BERLIN, West Germany — Just after midnight on May 5, 1963, a red Austin Healey Sprite approached the barrier on the eastern side of the Berlin Wall at Checkpoint Charlie. The top of the sports car was down, the windshield was missing, and at the wheel was Heinz Meixner, 20, an Austrian lathe operator.

He showed his passport to the East German guard, who waved him on to the customs shed. But instead of stopping for inspection, Meixner gunned the engine, skidded around the slalom course of barriers and--ducking his head--whizzed blindly under the three-foot-high steel-lift barrier and into West Berlin
 Behind the seat was his East German fiancee, Margarete Thurau, and in the trunk her 48-year-old mother.

----

What is really surprising to me is that a few months later the exact same car was used to effect another escape. Once again this story involves an individual in love with an East German woman (this has to be in the days before these females were used to great effect in the Olympics as weight lifters) and he had seen the previous news about Meixner's successful attempt.

He rented a Sprite - which was the same one used earlier - and placed his girlfriend in the trunk (which means that she had to be relatively svelte) and headed to Checkpoint Charlie. Stopped once by a guard (who pointed out a loose exhaust pipe) he drove towards the final barrier before gunning the engine and driving underneath the arm by ducking his head.

Alas, after the second attempt the Stasi got smart and steel bars were added below the barrier to prevent further escapes but let no one tell you that the little Sprite failed to make an important impact to the Cold War.

No word on whether the East German women rescued were worth all the trouble but I like to think that they were. Who knows? One of them may even have given us Claudia Schiffer."





Offline tauruck

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4624 on: November 10, 2014, 11:50:13 PM »
Chris, is this the racing version of your car?.

I'm asking because a guy over here has molds for this front end and wants parts made.

Sorry for the jack.

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4625 on: November 11, 2014, 12:09:02 AM »
Chris, is this the racing version of your car?.

 
http://sebringsprite.com/   :cheers:

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4626 on: November 11, 2014, 12:11:01 AM »
There used to be several similar versions of that front end from different manufacturers. I worked on one in the sixties putting park light / turn signal recesses in below the headlights. That was when I still thought it was fun to work with fiberglass.  :roll: :roll: :roll:

Pete

Offline tauruck

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4627 on: November 11, 2014, 01:02:01 AM »
Thanks Mike. Never been too fond of English cars and it come from watching friends and their fathers constantly wrenching on cars that never seemed to run.
The English classics are very popular here.
Pete, glass has never been fun. :-D

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4628 on: November 11, 2014, 03:16:54 PM »
Chris, is this the racing version of your car?.

I'm asking because a guy over here has molds for this front end and wants parts made.

Sorry for the jack.

John Sprinzel, the guy behind the Sebring Sprites, was the "tuner" who put those on the map.  In some ways, he was the Carroll Shelby of BMC in the early 1960s.

These guys are doing repro parts - and the car #S221 on this page is actually a real one driven by Martin McGlone, the fellow who now owns the Abarth that used to hold the I-GT record.  S221 was originally driven by Sterling Moss.

http://www.sebringsprite.com/pricelist.html
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline wisdonm

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4629 on: November 11, 2014, 03:49:29 PM »
This is what's needed, but sadly illegal.

Stand on it....brakes only slow you down.

Has a checkered past.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4630 on: November 11, 2014, 04:38:33 PM »
This is what's needed, but sadly illegal.



They still make those tops!  I've been in touch with Ashley, and they have no records as to how many they've sold through MG and AH dealers, and while aftermarket pieces, some were sold as a "factory dealer options", but no records exist to prove it to the folks in impound.

That's okay - I'll just go with more power.   :cheers:

By the way - MG Enthusiast Magazine is running a news story on some joker who was foolhardy enough to run an MG Midget at Bonneville, and had the audacity to actually come away with a class record.  It's supposed to hit the newsstands on November 14.   :wink:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Andy Cooke

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4631 on: November 25, 2014, 05:56:02 PM »

If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on:   13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R


is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?

Andy

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4632 on: November 25, 2014, 10:48:22 PM »

If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on:   13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R


is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?

Andy

Mark's anticipating higher volumetric efficiency - thus the 115% - but as to actual static or dynamic CR, until we know what the head flows, the volume of the combustion chamber, what cams can be made to work, where they close and the piston displacement, we're still at guess work.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4633 on: November 26, 2014, 07:52:14 AM »

If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on:   13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R


is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?

Andy

I don't know the "efficiency loss" numbers for 4000 feet of elevation change off the top of my head, but 13% is in the "ballpark".    So, yes, that is what I am thinking.


If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on:   13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R


is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?

Andy

Mark's anticipating higher volumetric efficiency - thus the 115% - but as to actual static or dynamic CR, until we know what the head flows, the volume of the combustion chamber, what cams can be made to work, where they close and the piston displacement, we're still at guess work.

And, yes, until all the "homework" is done, we are still guessing, although there are some fairly educated guesses.

As opposed to just WAG's.   (wild a** guesses . . . .)

As I have said before:   "It is just dumb to guess, when you can know by taking the time to calculate or measure the information that you need."

I think it might be called, engineering, and I could be wrong, but I don't think so . . . . . .
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Andy Cooke

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4634 on: November 26, 2014, 03:05:08 PM »

If your thinking cap with the extra cooling is on:   13.5/1 x 115% = 15.525/1 dynamic C/R


is that 15.525/1 x 87% = 13.5/1 dynamic C/R @4000ft?

Andy

I don't know the "efficiency loss" numbers for 4000 feet of elevation change off the top of my head, but 13% is in the "ballpark".    So, yes, that is what I am thinking.


thanks for confirming what I was thinking, we don't have altitude over here, so this stuff is new to me.

I'd previously been thinking about what happens at Pike's Peak (14,000ft?) some strange stuff must happen there, boiling fuel, fuel pumps cavitating etc.  Not to mention the impossibility of making a decent cup of tea.

I guess it's one thing optimising the CR and cams to run at 4000ft, but quite another to dyno that same engine at sea level.

Andy  :cheers: