Milwaukee Midget

[Milwaukee Midget]

I've decided to maintain this thread with the Kettle build.  It should be easy to remember - anything regarding the K series will be starting on page 300.  Simple delineation, I think.

Sooooo . . .

Tuesday, I took some Hack-and-Snore Oktoberfest down to my Chicago Bear Backing Buddy, and we ripped into the head.  He needed a distraction . . .

We got the valves out and I'll be dropping the casting off at C&S for a cleaning and Zyglo®, along with the block.  I want to get this back to Mark soon, because he's flowing another head in the next few weeks, and I want to piggyback on that time and establish a baseline for this engine.

It's an interesting engine, this Kettle . . .

Plastic oil pickup - held in place with 2 cap screws and an O-ring . . . looks like an optional attachment for a Shop-Vac . . .



This is the oiling ladder - bolts to the bottom of the main girdle . . . no gasket, seal or silicone, which is all fine and well if the block doesn't twist and the machining is flat.  Even the oil pan - a cast aluminum piece - had no seal.   Is Rover so damned cheap that they can't afford a very thin piece of paper?



This is the girdle itself, and you can see where the oil was leaking between the ladder and the girdle, because it had NO SEAL. There are 10 bolts that attach it to the bottom of the cylinder case around the perimeter.  The 10 head bolts - quite long, I might add - draw up on the girdle through the cylinder case.  ARP makes an upgraded replacement for them - the originals are a torque-to-yield arrangement which can't be reused -

 



Nice sized crank seal on the rear - finally, a British engine that doesn't spit lubricant all over its clutch . . .



Seeing as I need to have a custom crank made anyway, we'll be utilizing the Midget transmission, and we'll have the rear of the crank cut to fit the Midget flywheel.  The Grenade has a 1/4 inch plate on the rear of the engine - so will this one, when it's done . . .



At some point in time, this engine either dropped a valve, broke a timing belt, or wound up with something noncombustible passing through it.  The head looks okay, so I dare say it was replaced - and judging that the car it came out of only had 60,000 miles, the timing belt looked really fresh.  The cylinders pass the fingernail test, but if I had torn this engine down to fix it, I'd have gone the extra mile and replaced the pistons . . .



And looking at the main bearings and the crank, it's clear that the crank took some foreign substance on a merry-go-round ride . . .



I need to get some 12 point metric sockets to remove the rods and pistons, so that's going to be it for this evening.

[Jack Gifford]

Ten [long] fasteners clamping everything from the cams' "girdle" to the mains girdle together securely... I'm envious.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Well, it's a low pressure casting technique they use to make these blocks - all very thin wall - and while all the engineering points to go, there are equal numbers in the junk yard as are on the road.  If I sound like I'm whining, it's because I'm not completely comfortable with it yet.  I said earlier . . .

"a huge dedication to careful and precise build techniques and tolerances."

On this thing, I simply don't think it will have the "forgiveness factor" of a cast iron 5-port tractor motor.

10 really long bolts - springs, as Sparky points out - sandwiching it all together.

I'm really going to have to be on my game this time.  I suspect my old friend, "Dumb Luck", will not be knocking on my door as often on this one.

[fordboy628]

I've decided to maintain this thread with the Kettle build.  It should be easy to remember - anything regarding the K series will be starting on page 300.  Simple delineation, I think.

This is the oiling ladder - bolts to the bottom of the main girdle . . . no gasket, seal or silicone, which is all fine and well if the block doesn't twist and the machining is flat.  Even the oil pan - a cast aluminum piece - had no seal.   Is Rover so damned cheap that they can't afford a very thin piece of paper?

And if it had the thin piece of paper (as in RS1600 Ford Capris), it would still leak and be able to squirm around.

Having had MUCH experience with this type of setup, the ONLY way to prevent leaks or movement is to utilize a thin film of RTV sealant between the parts.   Solves two problems, leakage & structural strength.   The tried & true method used by Keith Black, Donovan, Cosworth, Renault, Ferrari, etc.   Gets my vote also.   Yes, it is a PITA, hence reserved for final assembly . . . . .
 
Kungfupandaboy

[Milwaukee Midget]

I've decided to maintain this thread with the Kettle build.  It should be easy to remember - anything regarding the K series will be starting on page 300.  Simple delineation, I think.

This is the oiling ladder - bolts to the bottom of the main girdle . . . no gasket, seal or silicone, which is all fine and well if the block doesn't twist and the machining is flat.  Even the oil pan - a cast aluminum piece - had no seal.   Is Rover so damned cheap that they can't afford a very thin piece of paper?

And if it had the thin piece of paper (as in RS1600 Ford Capris), it would still leak and be able to squirm around.

Having had MUCH experience with this type of setup, the ONLY way to prevent leaks or movement is to utilize a thin film of RTV sealant between the parts.   Solves two problems, leakage & structural strength.   The tried & true method used by Keith Black, Donovan, Cosworth, Renault, Ferrari, etc.   Gets my vote also.   Yes, it is a PITA, hence reserved for final assembly . . . . .
 
Kungfupandaboy

I know, and we discussed that Tuesday.

My point - my sorrowful lament, if you will - and yes, I'm whining again - is that gasketless assembly and reliance upon consistency in mating surfaces on mass produced engines for consumer use has become the norm.  And yes, companies are making it work, but to vastly varying degrees of success.

  Witness exhibit "A".

The leakage on the oiling ladder on the girdle mirrors the oil leakage we saw Tuesday night on the head.  It's likely that there is enough oil flow through the engine that it would never be a problem in a stock, daily driver, and that is the build goal from the factory. 

But I think it's a low bar, and I think different manufacturers have different success outputs attempting it.

Design only goes so far - execution is what makes design work.

Absolutely - a thin layer of RTV - I don't consider that a PITA for a racing application.  But I have reservations about the reliance on absolute finishes and tolerances being held in a factory setting - especially if the manufacturer is on the hook for warranty repair.

[Stainless1]

Chris, take a couple of deep breaths, it is starting to look like you are working on a modern bike motor... more or less 
Yamabond... all the Manufacturers of bike motors have their edition of it, it looks like a blend of rtv and contact cement.  It is how they all seal aluminum to aluminum machined surfaces.
Welcome to modern aluminum engines... they are way different than iron, you will develop a different love/hate relationship than you had will the grenade.

[manta22]

Chris;

Hylomar is a good metal-to-metal sealant. It was developed by Rolls- Royce for their jet engines. It is a blue gel that's easy to apply, it allows the parts to be separated again without drama, and the old stuff can be wiped off clean with MEK, ready for a new application when it is necessary to reassemble the parts.

We used it on a Hewland LG600 transaxle; it made changing gearsets easier.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[Rick Byrnes]

I agree with Neil that Hylomar should work on all the joints you described.

At Ford when I was working in the Engine component engineering  sealing group, we used loctite to seal the block to girdle joint on the 2.5/3.0 litre Duratech.  We had tons of data showing that is surpassed any type of rtv at that joint.  Dont remember specifics, but the Loctite product was way superior.  I have no idea what they use since I left the group in 96/97.

We did not have long term data on Hylomar, but I still use it in my race motors on alum/alum machined joints.

RTV at the girdle joint had a problem with adhesive delamination when subjected to shear loads.

[Milwaukee Midget]

RTV at the girdle joint had a problem with adhesive delamination when subjected to shear loads.

And shear loads will likely be an issue with the sandwich construction, damp liners and the long bolts.

I'm not doing this one twice.

All is under advisement - Thank You, guys. 

[manta22]

Rick;

I remember that Loctite stuff you mentioned. It was supposed to have decent shear strength and I used it to seal the two- piece aluminum case of a trick Corvair engine that I built. I wonder what ever happened to that product, I have not seen it in decades.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[Milwaukee Midget]

Rick;

I remember that Loctite stuff you mentioned. It was supposed to have decent shear strength and I used it to seal the two- piece aluminum case of a trick Corvair engine that I built. I wonder what ever happened to that product, I have not seen it in decades.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Wow - I've owned two Corvairs.  If it will stop a Corvair from leaking, it'll work on ANYTHING!   

[manta22]

Chris;

The two most troublesome oil leaks from a Corvair engine were from the valve covers and from the pushrod tubes. The valve cover leaks were usually from over-tightening the hold-down bolts and distorting the cover; the pushrod tube leaks were from the o-ring seals. The stock O-rings would give out early because of the engine oil heat. Replacing them with Viton O-rings solves that problem. US mechanics' unfamiliarity with air-cooled engines didn't help the situation.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[jacksoni]

I used RTV on my Cosworth Vega, per Chevrolet instructions on the head to block. Subsequently on most other gasketed surfaces and worked ok. They recommended for the head to pre treat with the primer -http://www.dowcorning.com/applications/search/products/details.aspx?prod=04093284&type=PROD
which helps it stick.

More recently have been using  the Permatex "right stuff" which I understand is more a rubber than silicone product and am very happy with it. If the surfaces are clean, it sticks well and doesn't leak. Therefore also hard to get off. The hylomar sounds good in that respect.

[Dr Goggles]

On this thing, I simply don't think it will have the "forgiveness factor" of a cast iron 5-port tractor motor.

10 really long bolts - springs, as Sparky points out - sandwiching it all together.

I'm really going to have to be on my game this time.  I suspect my old friend, "Dumb Luck", will not be knocking on my door as often on this one.

I think you should fabricate a custom alternator bracket.

I'd start with two pieces of quite heavy plate, maybe inch. Have one cnc'd to fit over the head and the other a snug fit to bear on the lower skirt and use it as the sump attachment, then I'd connect them with at least 14 high tensile bolts of maybe 58dia. Then you can hang the alt off it somewhere.........

[Elmo Rodge]

Izzat 58mm diameter? Wayno