Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 3275698 times)

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Offline Elmo Rodge

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4185 on: August 03, 2014, 10:13:59 PM »
Dig it.  :cheers: Wayno

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4186 on: August 03, 2014, 10:28:16 PM »
Sure looks more bitchiner more lower.

Thanx for keeping the color.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4187 on: August 03, 2014, 11:22:03 PM »
Chris,

You and a couple of others have mentioned luck, good bad or otherwise. I would dispute that and say that rather than being in a bad position, earlier preparation and attention to detail have put you in a good position to solve what may otherwise have been a deal breaker.

Stop reading this and get to it, I'm a selfish SOB and I want to see that car run.

Cheers,
Rob

Rob, thank you for that.

Mark and I have talked extensively about how the Penske organization prepares for an event.  Granted, Roger can throw a lot of money at problems to overcome them, but there have been a lot of wealthy individuals who have used that approach and still wound up putting the car back on the trailer before the event was over.  John Menard’s Indy efforts come to mind.

But what Mark always found striking is that when the Penske team showed up, they’d set their pit, do their work, and while many teams were still trying to sort stuff out, they would go get dinner, get to their hotel rooms and get a good night’s sleep. 

That’s how prepared they are.

That’s my goal. 

The value of that is critical to my enjoyment of the LSR stuff.  I don’t want to be rushed or under the gun once I get to Bonneville.  I want to be able to gas up, check valve lash, change out jets, spool up the car, but most importantly, spend time with my wife and friends.

That can’t be done without putting the time in before you leave.

It’s not likely that had this happened in Wendover I’d have been able to get it put back together, and if I had, it’s likely it would not have lasted very long.  So as to preparedness vs. luck, this one was luck.

But what’s important is that this fiasco of misfortune led to an additional degree of preparedness.

I was testing the cooling system.  I thought the valvetrain was sorted.  Something didn’t sound right, so I investigated.  Cracked collar, leading to a valve seat issue.

Tear down, check the valve and seat, repair.  Had this happened at Bonneville, I’d have put it back together and headed for the line.

But because we were at home, Mark insisted we replace ALL of the collars.  His point was that these were original to a used racing head I bought 5 years ago, that we didn’t know its history before hand, and that we’d been abusing it on the dyno for better than 50 pulls, two passes at Maxton and 11 passes at Bonneville.

What turned up was what would have been the next collar to break . . . Note the stress crack at 2 o’clock . . .



So in this case, my friend Dumb Luck, once again led us down the path of preparedness and enlightenment.

I simply got really, REALLY lucky.  I was at the point of putting the car on the trailer, and if I hadn’t tested the cooling system, it’s likely I’d have trashed the engine on the first pass.

And I have to confess, it still could happen.  It’s the risk we take doing this – pushing things to their limit.

You can’t count on Dumb Luck, but you can learn from him.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline wisdonm

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4188 on: August 04, 2014, 12:24:15 AM »
Darn Chris. Just got back from the EAA. If you need any kind of help, even if it's just opening another beer, please let me know.
Stand on it....brakes only slow you down.

Has a checkered past.

Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4189 on: August 04, 2014, 01:01:23 AM »
Oh, good!   :cheers:

I was afraid that it was something related to an earlier report of "no oil leaks"  :mrgreen:

Mike
Mike Kelly - PROUD owner of the V4F that powered the #1931 VGC to a 82.803 mph record in 2008!

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4190 on: August 04, 2014, 07:59:46 AM »
Jeez – it was just IDLING!

When I checked the cooling system this afternoon, I noticed the Midget seemed to be running a tad rough.  The exhaust pulses were not quite as aggressive as they had been, so I figured I’d check the valve lash.  These things are notorious for not maintaining adjustment – I’ve had issues before - and it’s dialed in a few thousandths tighter than before.  Additionally, on the advice of Tom at T&T, he suggested I not crank down the adjusters as tight as I had been.

I suspected something wasn’t right, so I took off the valve cover.

This is what I found . . .


Snapped right down the middle.  The keepers were still in place, and the valve was being returned by the inner spring, which actually stopped the valve from dropping out of the head.

It looks worse than what it is, but the rocker was also gnarred up through this process . . .



The roller still turns easy, and other than the scraping against the collar, the rocker appears to be usable.

Tear down, check the valve and seat, repair.  Had this happened at Bonneville, I’d have put it back together and headed for the line.

But because we were at home, Mark insisted we replace ALL of the collars.  His point was that these were original to a used racing head I bought 5 years ago, that we didn’t know its history before hand, and that we’d been abusing it on the dyno for better than 50 pulls, two passes at Maxton and 11 passes at Bonneville.

What turned up was what would have been the next collar to break . . . Note the stress crack at 2 o’clock . . .



So in this case, my friend Dumb Luck, once again led us down the path of preparedness and enlightenment.

I simply got really, REALLY lucky.  I was at the point of putting the car on the trailer, and if I hadn’t tested the cooling system, it’s likely I’d have trashed the engine on the first pass.

And I have to confess, it still could happen.  It’s the risk we take doing this – pushing things to their limit.

You can'’t count on Dumb Luck, but you can learn from him.

Parts Failure and Component Lifespan Vs. Applied Load.   A short lesson on the number of cycles to FAILURE.

I just want to start off by saying that most of the experienced "old hands" or "racers" who follow Midget's build diary are going to either know what I'm talking about or have seen firsthand the results of either "good judgment" or perhaps "bad choices" . . . . . .     And there has been some insightful advice posted about what should be done to remedy the problem . . . . .

So, to state the obvious, engines (and racing engines as well) are comprised of hundreds, if not thousands of individual components.   Some of these components are operationally stressed far more highly than some of the other components.   And I don't want to invite debate about which ones are more stressed than others, because at this stage of the game for me, my mind is pretty much made up, and it would take a pretty convincing debate, along with data, for me to change my conclusions.


Component stresses are typically analyzed based on a function of the applied load Vs the duty cycle.   This is to say that as the load is increased, the number of load cycles that a part can withstand (without failure) decreases.  Typically for metallic parts, this load vs # of cycles graph is inversely proportional at a logarithmic rate.

The following figure shows a typical fatigue curve for stress versus cycles to failure.



The y-axis (vertical) represents component load, normally in linear increments.
The x-axis (horizontal) represents # of cycles to failure, normally with a logarithmic scale, where the first increment would represent a value of 10, the second increment 100,
      etc, usually up to a value of 10 million or 100 million cycles.
Atypically, at the intersection of the x-axis & y-axis, the x value would be 1 as opposed to the more conventional value of 0.    The y-axis value remains conventional at 0.

What is important to understand about this graphical analysis is:
A/   Conventionally the y-axis load value at an x-axis value of 1, represents the yield strength or ultimate tensile strength of the part.   That is: ONE CYCLE TO FAILURE.
2/   At some lower y-axis values of applied load, the x-axis number of cycles to failure is larger.
d/   Eventually, the applied load is low enough for the part to withstand 10 million or 100 million cycles.   This is typically considered to be: infinite part life.
z/   Also important to note is that in high rpm racing engines, 10 million cycles might be exceeded in a fairly short time period . . . . . .

The point of all this is: Parts can be designed larger, heavier, stronger, etc, all based on the cycle life requirements.   Or the opposite can be true as well.   Parts can be made smaller, lighter, weaker, etc.    Obviously, in racing engines, the lightest part with adequate strength, for the service interval, is usually the part you want to utilize.    Well, except for other considerations, ie, cost, availability, suitability for the application, etc, etc.   Engine engineers "walk the line" so to speak, with decisions of this nature on a fairly regular basis, and most of the time good judgments and good results occur.   Once a part fails, however, re-evaluation should take place.


SO, WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

Well, it's pretty simple really.   I'm hoping Chris will photograph and post up the cracked retainer halves so everyone can see how the part failed.    After an undetermined number of stress/load cycles, the part failed due to fatigue from the applied load.    What is scary to me is how quickly the part fractured, once the fatigue crack began.    In cross section the failed part exhibits very few of the classic "beach lines" typical to a fatigue failure.    So, once the crack formed, the part's strength was seriously degraded, and it failed pretty quickly.    In my opinion, it really isn't important to quantify anything else here, broken is broken.

What is important to note here is that it is my opinion that there were NOT very many cycles endured after the part cracked.   I base this conclusion on the underside of the rocker arm.    It wasn't beat up enough to have been "cycled" very many times.    Chris can call it "Dumb Luck" if he wants, I prefer to think he exercised "Good Judgment" when the engine "sounded funny" to him.    It shows a "mechanical empathy" few possess.

OK, SO YOU DODGED THE BULLET, NOW WHAT?

Well, some guys would replace the broken part with the intention of resuming racing.    And Chris may have been willing to do just that.    But fortunately he has a buddy who has been doing this for longer than I care to admit at this point in time.    (And willing to make a foray into the dreaded "Sconnie Nation"/"Packerland"  :-D)   There was some "discussion", but in the finish, I convinced my friend that my racing engine rule #1 should apply in this instance.    You know the one: "STOP DOING STUPID SH**!!!!!!"    Unsurprisingly, (to me at least), when I started inspecting the remaining original retainers, (the very first one!!) another fatigue cracked sample was found.    Discussion over!!    So he was requested to go into his inventory (ahem, his used parts dungeon . . . ) to see what he could find.   Fortunately, suitable replacements were in good supply and ALL the original retainers were replaced.   Problem solved?   Well, sort of.    I would rather use some sexy titanium retainers for the application, Chris has some he bought, they just won't work dimensionally.    Some specialty machined and "Tufftrided" high strength steel retainers?    Yes, but we are out of time.    Bottom line is: the stock retainer is highly stressed for this application, but has given a reasonable service life.   And most importantly, he had them.    Not the "perfect" solution, but an adequate one.    Does the parts replacement guarantee success?    Well, no, but I feel a lot better about it than just replacing the one that cracked.

SO WHAT'S THE TAKEAWAY HERE?

In addition to engine output, engine and engine part reliability are performance factors.    But, if optimum performance is your goal, reliability is compromised, to some degree.    Why?   Because parts that never fail are too da** heavy for ultimate performance.    The bottom line becomes one where cycle life should be recorded, and where highly stressed parts are replaced at some adequate "service interval" prior to "catastrophic" failure.    Part cycle life can never be "cured".   (Except by overly strong/heavy parts.)    Part cycle life can only be "Managed".    There is an important difference, make sure you "get it".   Additionally, as in this example, if one of your parts fails, you should ideally replace the others, before they "replace themselves" . . . . . . .    Why?   Because preventative maintenance trumps post mortem inspections, EVERY TIME.

You know I'm fond of saying that: "I make no secret of the fact I'm basically lazy".    What that really means is: "I try like hell to work smarter, not harder".   So should you.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Go get 'em Chris,
Fordboy
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 09:17:38 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

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"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4191 on: August 04, 2014, 08:12:56 AM »
BTW, for everyone who was wondering.   Retainer/keeper angle or interference was not an issue in this failure.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Online jacksoni

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4192 on: August 04, 2014, 08:25:27 AM »
Thanks Fordboy for a great write up and explanation of this specific problem. Because I don't have megabuck sponsors, replacing parts that look/measure to new specs just because they have  some time on them is difficult to swallow. However, having broken retainers, valve springs (several times), lifter rollers, dropped head off a valve, etc I am learning to suck it up and pay the piper. The potential catastrophic loss of major parts, maybe the entire engine, just makes it  mandatory to have some sort of plan and just chuck those parts that look OK. MM did dodge a bullet here as everyone has said. Time for new parts. Good luck and hope to see you in impound. Maybe cross paths on the highway on way out.
Jack Iliff
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Offline hotschue

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4193 on: August 04, 2014, 08:56:14 AM »
Well said......especially 10K screamers.......
Udo Horn
221.559 D/CGC '03
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4194 on: August 04, 2014, 09:14:21 AM »
Also:

I didn't post this with the retainer dissertation because it deserved a separate post.

Results for warm leakdown check:

#1    1%
#2    1%
#3    3%    (in retrospect, probably could have lapped these valves too, but where the he** do you stop?.  Gotta stop figgeting and go racing sometime.)
#4    1%    (this was the cylinder with the cracked retainer)

Bores looked good.  Crosshatching still somewhat visible and even.   Coated piston tops looked great, NO carbon build-up whatsoever.    It appears that the "Total Seal" rings are doing their job, as most of the "leakage" was coming from the valves/seats.   This is an issue inherent with the 'A' series heads, valve seat shape changes between cold and hot.    At this leak rate, I'm not concerned.

A couple of other points:

A/    100 psi of "unrestricted" air pressure into your engine is probably going to find a way out.    WD-40 in the port tends to "maginify" the appearance of the "leakage".
2/    Leakdown checkers typically use a .040"/.050" restrictor to reduce the volume of flow into the combustion chamber being tested.    Even with the "restriction"   WD-40
       in the port "magnifies" the leakage and possibly the paranoia . . . . . .
d/    I understand "colloquial" diagnosis and solutions.    Some are very clever and effective.    Way back when, I also started with little other than enthusiasm.
       But at this stage of the game, in a blatant move to attempt to retain what sanity I have left, I tend to go the "science" route.    "Data" is my new "idol".    And besides,
       logical thinking is such a refreshing change . . . . . . .    (Thanks Mike, for assembling the thought.)

Mistress Helga says: "Hokay boys, time fur ze talk ees ovair.   Now ees ze time to schpank eet".
I agree.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy

P.S.  midget, notice she said "schpanking" NOT "goggifying" . . . . . . :roll:  :wink:

Doc: My apologies in advance . . . . . .  :-D
« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 09:28:40 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline DaveB

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4195 on: August 04, 2014, 10:03:09 AM »
Fordboy, thank you for that brief explanation on fatigue as it applies to engine parts.
Everything I know about opera, I learned from Bugs Bunny.

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4196 on: August 04, 2014, 10:37:46 AM »
This rule saved your bacon!  :-D
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Offline lsrjunkie

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4197 on: August 04, 2014, 10:53:46 AM »
Love the video MM! Thank goodness you caught the retainer issue before it caught you.

 :cheers: Looking forward to seeing you on the salt!  :cheers:
Maybe there is no Heaven. Or maybe this is all pure gibberish. The product of a demented hill billy who has found a way to live out where the winds blow. To sleep late, have fun, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love or getting arrested.    H.S. Thompson

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4198 on: August 04, 2014, 11:22:57 AM »
This rule saved your bacon!  :-D

Now if I could just get my prostate to follow that rule . . . . .

F/B
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline JimL

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #4199 on: August 04, 2014, 02:53:48 PM »
Valve springs and retainers are pretty scary stuff.  Too many people will drop some into a can of solvent, swish them around to clean, and then fail to throw them away.  The surface is hard and edges are often sharp.  You cant even drop them into the same box to store.

Years ago, we had a particular (newly introduced) engine that was breaking valve springs.  This sometimes occurred within a few blocks of driving the brand new car...often just idling at a stoplight.  The culprit was line-feeders (the folks who deliver the parts to assembly line workers.)  They were dumping valve springs into a plastic bin where the assembly tech was picking parts for head build.  Sharp edges at the cut end of the valve springs were making tiny nicks on the coils of springs already in the bin.

That retainer in your pic is a rough looking fellow!  Many stress risers on a deal like that.  If I drop a valve spring on the concrete floor, I feel sad for a moment and then throw it away.

Regarding pit setup for Bonneville, I have given up doing that.  It's just too tiring, in the heat, and if the bike isnt ready to run straight out of tech inspection I am already in trouble.  For the last three years I have found it is much easier to just keep the bike in impound each night, until I am done running.  Everything that would be of any use, is already in the trailer boxes.  Its easy to park the trailer at the back of the pits when the "running days" are done.

Life got in the way of preparing this year, and there was no chance of Speedweek.  I hope you have a fun event with this handsome little car.