Author Topic: M/C minimums again.  (Read 83361 times)

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Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: M/C minimums again.
« Reply #255 on: December 28, 2006, 02:01:50 PM »
I know that having minimums move over the years is maybe a little different but from 1981 through 1989, the record we were after was raised every year before we finally caught and passed it. There were actually 6 liners a one time in the class. It really made it sweet when we did finally get the record. It was raised 35 mph in that time period.

Offline Stainless1

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Re: M/C minimums again.
« Reply #256 on: January 03, 2007, 09:46:28 AM »
Wow, what a thread. 
Conclusions...
What we need is some stability in the rules that govern the classes.  A review of the new rules should move several of the old records to different classes, but that is not being done.  Some minimums are based on now illegal class performance.
By constantly changing the rules, we seem to think we need to change minimums for the club.
The minimums change as people approach number.  (I always thought increasing performance was what our sport was about, but constantly raising the bar to the goal is discouraging)

I'm a car guy also, and see a lot of car guys going slow enough to get guys in the club, not going as fast as they can, we all know it happens, see the latest Hot Rod if in doubt.  So why punish the bikes...
So the only minimums should probably be in new classes, not in classes that have been raced for years.  After a new class is established, the minimum should be reviewed after 3 competitors have raced the class for 3 years and the bar set to an obtainable number.
Yes the 2 club should be an honor, it ain't easy anyway, so let's let performance govern the established classes. It's shouldn't be the 205/210/220 MPH club for established classes.
Must be time for a new thread, this one is way too long.
Jon, I can't find the spell cheker...
Stainless
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Offline JackD

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Re: M/C minimums again.
« Reply #257 on: January 03, 2007, 10:21:16 AM »
"Rules without reason are like the blind leading the deaf."
Make yourself be heard but be sure the rest are listening or you can see the fate that is in your future.
How can anyone expect the 2 Club to keep up when the SCTA rulers are still sloshing around with changes.
 You haven't even been given the courtesy of a preview.
It should still be your sport.
Are you among the 100 or so records that will disappear for no good reason ?
Say "GOODBY."

"FAILED AS DESIGNED OR FAILED BY DESIGN?"
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aswracing

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Re: M/C minimums again.
« Reply #258 on: January 08, 2007, 01:21:27 PM »
I'm snowed in today, couldn't get to work, figured I'd take a crack at doing this mathematically.

I welcome others to critique and modify this. I'm not a physics expert by any means, I'm a 48 year old electrical engineer who hasn't sat through a physics class in about 28 years. But it doesn't seem very complex to me (maybe that's a bad sign!).

Looking at the formulas around this stuff, you see not just variables like velocity and drag and power, but also air density, Cd, Area, rolling resistance, etc. I don't think we want to get into the business of guessing differences in rolling resistance between bikes, I really don't think that matters. Likewise we don't want minimums that change depending on the air density that day. Nor do we want to worry about how to reconcile the thousand ways to measure horsepower, i.e. crank, net, gross, corrected, etc, or worry about how every dyno seems to give a different number.

The only way around that mess, that I can see, is to distill the formulas down to the couple basic relationships between power, speed, and CdA, and apply those relationships to a reference point, i.e. a class and minimum we all agree is reasonable. Having a reference point like that, and knowing the mathematical relationships between power, speed, and CdA, we should be able to calculate a reasonable minimum for any other class.

The two basic relationships are that horsepower required goes up as the cube of the speed increase, and drag goes up as the square of the speed increase, or conversely, speed goes down as the square root of the drag increase, which is what we really care about.  Check me on that, but the formula is V = sqrt(F/.5CdA). Since drag and CdA are proportional, we can just use CdA. Drag has got air density as a component and we don't want to go there.

Both of these relationships assume that air density and rolling resistance and the like stay constant. They also let us ignore things like how the horsepower is measured. We're just talking about the relationship between power levels assuming an identical measurement.

So anyway, if we have a reference class and minimum, and we want to know a different class minimum, all we have to know is:

- the difference in horsepower
- the difference in CdA, if the class you're calculating has no fairing and the reference number does, or vice-versa

The first one, horsepower, is the more complex, but I don't think it's that bad. What have we got for variables?

- displacement
- OHC or pushrod
- Boosted or NA
- gas or fuel
- current or vintage
- production or not

others?

Displacement is pretty easy to deal with, power capability roughly scales with displacement.

That leaves 5 other variables, each with 2 possibilities. 5 bits is 32 possibile combinations, less several non-allowed combos like Production-Fuel, Vintage doesn't have pushrod/OHC, etc. Write'em all down and come up with a horsepower factor for each of those. Your chosen reference bike will be a factor of 1.00, and you'll scale the power based on whichever configuration you're trying to calculate. You'll also, of course, scale the result based on the percentage difference in the displacement. Presto, you've got horsepower.

The difference in CdA we'd have to figure out empirically. Ideally you'd have two bikes, with the same horsepower, one with a good representative fairing and another naked but optimized within the rules. Square the ratio of their speeds and you've got the difference in CdA. But those numbers are probably a fairly difficult thing to come up with, at least accurately.

The main thing is to reduce this to one single number, i.e. an unfaired bike as "X" percent the CdA of a faired bike. Or maybe you have two faired numbers, one for APS and one for MPS, since I believe the APS rules are a little more lenient, no? If nothing else, the longer wheelbase gives the opportunity for slightly better aerodynamics. You could also scale this number slightly based on the motor size, since smaller bikes have the opportunity for somewhat smaller CdA. In any event, the point is to reduce it to a small number of factors. That gives less numbers to argue about ;)

OK, let me give an example of what I'm talking about. I'll throw some numbers out for all of our factors, and then show how the calculation works. I haven't put a lot of thought into these factors so don't take them seriously, it's just an example:

Reference class: MPS-PG 2000, minimum is 200mph (I think this one is pretty reasonable, based on my calculations)

Fairing factors:
MPS: 1.00  (our reference bike)
APS: .98   (i.e. you've got 2% less CdA in an APS class)
unfaired: 1.15 (i.e. you've got 15% more CdA in an unfaired class)

Engine factor:
PG: 1.00 (our reference bike)
PF: 1.5 (fuel ought to make 1.5 times the power of the reference bike)
PBG: 1.5 (boosted ought to make 1.5 times the power of the reference bike)
PBF: 2.1 (boosted with fuel ought to make 2.1 times the power of the reference bike)
G: 1.4 (OHC ought to make 1.4 times the power of the reference bike)
F: 2.0 (OHC on fuel ought to make 2 times the power of the reference bike)
BG: 2.5 (Boosted OHC ought to make 2.5 times the power of the reference bike)
BF: 3.0 (Boosted OHC on fuel ought to make 3 times the power of the reference bike)

(I'm leaving out vintage and production to make this simpler. But what are there? 20 engine variations total? BFD)

OK, so now let's say we want to calculate the minimum for M-F 1350cc. How is it done?

First, scale the engine by displacement. 1350 divided by 2000 = .675, or 67.5%.

Now multiply by the factor above, to compensate for the fact that it's OHC on fuel. .675 times 2.0 = 1.35. There, you've decided that this bike ought to make 35% more power than the reference bike.

Apply this to the 200 minimum for the reference class. The cube root of 1.35 is 1.105. So 35% more power means the bike can go 10.5% faster, all else equal. 200 times 1.105 = 221 mph. That's what the minimum would be if this was 1350cc MPS-F.

But wait, this bike has no fairing, so it's got 15% more CdA than the reference bike. CdA is proportional to drag, and as we said, speed goes down as the square root of the CdA increase. The square root of 1.15 is 1.072, 221 / 1.072 = 206 mph. There's your 1350cc M-F minimum.

So anyway, this is just food for thought. Personally I think it would be very straightforward to come up with a spreadsheet to calculate any class. You'd still have a set of numbers for people to argue over (the motor and aero factors), but it'd be a whole lot smaller set of numbers than we have now.

« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 09:28:41 PM by aswracing »

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: M/C minimums again.
« Reply #259 on: January 08, 2007, 06:30:40 PM »
Wow! We're looking forward to a big dump toward the end of the week but I doubt that it's going to make me that creative. Good job ASW on working to sort out the mess.

Pete
« Last Edit: January 08, 2007, 06:32:25 PM by Peter Jack »

landracing

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Re: M/C minimums again.
« Reply #260 on: January 08, 2007, 07:56:34 PM »
Aaron,

Got to love snow days... Bonneville is always on the mind...

Thanks for the numbers now lets see if the 200 motorcycle committee uses any of the wealth of information you brought to the table... Some stabalization to the numbers and finally get the minimums down to a list that doesn't change year by year.

Jon

Super Kaz

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Re: M/C minimums again.
« Reply #261 on: January 21, 2007, 10:23:45 AM »
I'm snowed in today, couldn't get to work, figured I'd take a crack at doing this mathematically.

I welcome others to critique and modify this. I'm not a physics expert by any means, I'm a 48 year old electrical engineer who hasn't sat through a physics class in about 28 years. But it doesn't seem very complex to me (maybe that's a bad sign!).

Looking at the formulas around this stuff, you see not just variables like velocity and drag and power, but also air density, Cd, Area, rolling resistance, etc. I don't think we want to get into the business of guessing differences in rolling resistance between bikes, I really don't think that matters. Likewise we don't want minimums that change depending on the air density that day. Nor do we want to worry about how to reconcile the thousand ways to measure horsepower, i.e. crank, net, gross, corrected, etc, or worry about how every dyno seems to give a different number.

The only way around that mess, that I can see, is to distill the formulas down to the couple basic relationships between power, speed, and CdA, and apply those relationships to a reference point, i.e. a class and minimum we all agree is reasonable. Having a reference point like that, and knowing the mathematical relationships between power, speed, and CdA, we should be able to calculate a reasonable minimum for any other class.

The two basic relationships are that horsepower required goes up as the cube of the speed increase, and drag goes up as the square of the speed increase, or conversely, speed goes down as the square root of the drag increase, which is what we really care about.  Check me on that, but the formula is V = sqrt(F/.5CdA). Since drag and CdA are proportional, we can just use CdA. Drag has got air density as a component and we don't want to go there.

Both of these relationships assume that air density and rolling resistance and the like stay constant. They also let us ignore things like how the horsepower is measured. We're just talking about the relationship between power levels assuming an identical measurement.

So anyway, if we have a reference class and minimum, and we want to know a different class minimum, all we have to know is:

- the difference in horsepower
- the difference in CdA, if the class you're calculating has no fairing and the reference number does, or vice-versa

The first one, horsepower, is the more complex, but I don't think it's that bad. What have we got for variables?

- displacement
- OHC or pushrod
- Boosted or NA
- gas or fuel
- current or vintage
- production or not

others?

Displacement is pretty easy to deal with, power capability roughly scales with displacement.

That leaves 5 other variables, each with 2 possibilities. 5 bits is 32 possibile combinations, less several non-allowed combos like Production-Fuel, Vintage doesn't have pushrod/OHC, etc. Write'em all down and come up with a horsepower factor for each of those. Your chosen reference bike will be a factor of 1.00, and you'll scale the power based on whichever configuration you're trying to calculate. You'll also, of course, scale the result based on the percentage difference in the displacement. Presto, you've got horsepower.

The difference in CdA we'd have to figure out empirically. Ideally you'd have two bikes, with the same horsepower, one with a good representative fairing and another naked but optimized within the rules. Square the ratio of their speeds and you've got the difference in CdA. But those numbers are probably a fairly difficult thing to come up with, at least accurately.

The main thing is to reduce this to one single number, i.e. an unfaired bike as "X" percent the CdA of a faired bike. Or maybe you have two faired numbers, one for APS and one for MPS, since I believe the APS rules are a little more lenient, no? If nothing else, the longer wheelbase gives the opportunity for slightly better aerodynamics. You could also scale this number slightly based on the motor size, since smaller bikes have the opportunity for somewhat smaller CdA. In any event, the point is to reduce it to a small number of factors. That gives less numbers to argue about ;)

OK, let me give an example of what I'm talking about. I'll throw some numbers out for all of our factors, and then show how the calculation works. I haven't put a lot of thought into these factors so don't take them seriously, it's just an example:

Reference class: MPS-PG 2000, minimum is 200mph (I think this one is pretty reasonable, based on my calculations)

Fairing factors:
MPS: 1.00  (our reference bike)
APS: .98   (i.e. you've got 2% less CdA in an APS class)
unfaired: 1.15 (i.e. you've got 15% more CdA in an unfaired class)

Engine factor:
PG: 1.00 (our reference bike)
PF: 1.5 (fuel ought to make 1.5 times the power of the reference bike)
PBG: 1.5 (boosted ought to make 1.5 times the power of the reference bike)
PBF: 2.1 (boosted with fuel ought to make 2.1 times the power of the reference bike)
G: 1.4 (OHC ought to make 1.4 times the power of the reference bike)
F: 2.0 (OHC on fuel ought to make 2 times the power of the reference bike)
BG: 2.5 (Boosted OHC ought to make 2.5 times the power of the reference bike)
BF: 3.0 (Boosted OHC on fuel ought to make 3 times the power of the reference bike)

(I'm leaving out vintage and production to make this simpler. But what are there? 20 engine variations total? BFD)

OK, so now let's say we want to calculate the minimum for M-F 1350cc. How is it done?

First, scale the engine by displacement. 1350 divided by 2000 = .675, or 67.5%.

Now multiply by the factor above, to compensate for the fact that it's OHC on fuel. .675 times 2.0 = 1.35. There, you've decided that this bike ought to make 35% more power than the reference bike.

Apply this to the 200 minimum for the reference class. The cube root of 1.35 is 1.105. So 35% more power means the bike can go 10.5% faster, all else equal. 200 times 1.105 = 221 mph. That's what the minimum would be if this was 1350cc MPS-F.

But wait, this bike has no fairing, so it's got 15% more CdA than the reference bike. CdA is proportional to drag, and as we said, speed goes down as the square root of the CdA increase. The square root of 1.15 is 1.072, 221 / 1.072 = 206 mph. There's your 1350cc M-F minimum.

So anyway, this is just food for thought. Personally I think it would be very straightforward to come up with a spreadsheet to calculate any class. You'd still have a set of numbers for people to argue over (the motor and aero factors), but it'd be a whole lot smaller set of numbers than we have now.




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