M/C minimums again.

[JackD]

Thanks Scott, but honestly, I've lost interest. The discussion is not constructive and I'm as guilty as anyone for making it that way. I don't have a dog in this fight and there are many many positive things I can spend my time on instead.

Competitive people often lack a minimum level of civility and humility in their interactions. And we're a competitive lot for sure. And this medium only makes it worse.

Jack: re your post of 22 Aug 2006 01:29 am, I think you confused me with someone else, I never made an argument for or against Susan's inclusion.

I trust you are correct and won't even check.

[firemanjim]

It's apparent that this is indeed a "club" and as such tends to exclude folks. Keep setting the standard higher and you can keep the club to yourselves. When I was first aiming for inclusion(it sure looked cool) there was no minimums and it still seemed like a big stretch to try and make "just" the 200mph necessary. As I am addicted to these silly pushrod motors it becomes a tall hurdle to get over to make the necessary power. As I felt my way to bettering my speeds and making more power--maybe enough to make the grade-- the minimums came into play and all of a sudden my goal was put out of reach . Especially with the rules being so changeable and indecisive. Look it's an A class,no,it's an M,no it's back to being an A,oops,changed again it's neither.And now the engine I am building with the standard of strength S&S cases( so I can make the HP necessary to make the "minimums"and live) has been legislated out of my class--to another, with,I am sure, higher minimums. So maybe you can see why some of us are a bit out of sorts about all of this.
Not to mention the absurd "all leather" leathers rule.
So you boys can keep your club. I will continue to race for my edification and to see how fast I can go with my combos,but for now,I'll be at Bub's where my motor is legal and my nice set of very safe leathers can be worn.

[JackD]

Rule changes to a class should be limited to safety and clarification.
 Production is pretty easy to figure and it hasn't been the victim of anything more than developments in the standard machine.
 Performance enhancements inside leave plenty of room for the tuner.
The other classes unfortunately change with the wind and how can a new performance be compared or replace one that is not set against the same performance restrictions or standards ?
Indeed the rules are subject to the pleasure of a very few and serve mostly them.
The 2 club had it's standard as the SCTA record or minimum but the abuses were shameful.
Having them maintain their own standards is now their business and as the performances increase so do the speeds that you might expect to encounter.
The S+S case deal was and is about the dumbest deal I ever saw and the 2 club is just 1 of the victims.
The experience level applied to the revised AMA rules is the same and it shows.
The people responsible for the minimums for the 2 Club now do a pretty good job but will accept comment and appropriate information to make recommendations.
It is not like the car guys and the MC guys don't care about the other but actually make the presentation stronger because they all care enough about the Club as a whole to spend the time.
They might make mistakes but they know better than to lie.
 That is not always the case with promoters.
Quality verses quantity is their object and not to the exclusion of anybody but it would help if the rules of the racing body were more stable.
I can give you a number of examples and win that bet for sure.
Was that kinda harsh ?  I am kinda shy.
SEE  BELOW

[landracing]

Especially with the rules being so changeable and indecisive. Look it's an A class,no,it's an M,no it's back to being an A,oops,changed again it's neither.And now the engine I am building with the standard of strength S&S cases( so I can make the HP necessary to make the "minimums"and live) has been legislated out of my class--to another, with,I am sure, higher minimums. So maybe you can see why some of us are a bit out of sorts about all of this.

Jim,

THen your beef should be with the SCTA=BNI NOT the 200 Club. The 200 Club has not relationship with SCTA on rules changes. Now that S&S cases are not allowed in M class I do think also that the 200 minimums in all Pushrod M class bikes should be revisited... But the 200 Club established minimums when S&S cases were allowed as per the SCTA rules... It's real easy to get it changed, or talked about, just submit an email to Pat Kinne. I think you could get a good chance for the to move it back to 200 mph for the M class Pushrod Gas bikes... If you dont send the email to them nothing can be done... Then your "Silly" pushrod motor may be in the running and the goal not out of reach... Press on my friend...

Jon

[bak189]

Hey,  Fireman, as you noted you are racing the BUB event.....how about this.....you run FIM with your push-rod machine, S&S cases and all
FIM has been approved by the "Red-hat Club" ......see what the minimumims are , and go for it........
wearing your very safe leathers.

[JackD]

Thousands of production bikes were built with S+S cases and sold by others that meet
 all the requirements for production and so can evolve into an M.
 Those same bikes meet the seat height and various requirements for A also.
A fall down funny would be to enter 3 of the exact same bikes with 1 each in each if 3 categories and watch them wiggle.
Their motive is shallow at best and dumb at worst.

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do".

[landracing]

JackD,

These production bikes you speak of with S&S cases. Please enlighten me as I am not a Harley Guy... But I believe that these bikes you speak of are "Chopper" bikes that yeild a price tag of like $30K... These are custom chopper bikes that have such a high price tag do you think that they will ever be brought on the salt?

I might be wrong but Im interested in your answer.

Jon

[landracing]

That is correct baker, you can run FIM and the bylaws of the 200 Club must accept a record speed or minimum in the class. Check the 200 Club website for the FIM minimums.

Jn

[JackD]

I started with S+S to find out who they supply engine packages to in the amount
that would qualify for SCTA production with like construction in the numbers required.
 You would be surprised.
 One of them has produced in excess of 10,000.
 So I called them and established contact with them and faxed the appropriate page from the ruler book.
We shared a good laugh and they offered to loan me 3 identical bikes and they would  put
the required wrist shutoff and steering damper and even pay the 3 entry fees.
I wouldn't want to ride them and exhibit any undue influence. LOL
I suggested they select 3 of their employees or customers and the advertising would be priceless.
It would be in the same range of the BMW thing but understood it was for fun and not
 to be considered a performance mark.
The Real World is a lot larger and round than the rulers ever imagined.
"It is a tough World and tougher if you are stupid" and they are.
That is my nice.

OBTW: 193 items and 4348 views might indicate a "HOT  BUTTON" that deserves some attention from the rulers.

[landracing]

Jackd,

You still have not directly answered the question of what is the motorcycle.. Make year etc etc that uses a s&s case..

Jon

[JackD]

Jackd,

You still have not directly answered the question of what is the motorcycle.. Make year etc etc that uses a s&s case..

Jon

I got a partial list from Dan Kinsey and was not interested in all of them.
 They are in production now and have exceded the numbers required for some time.
I prefer to point out and not hold hands.
I will illustrate the lesson, but you gotta do the homework and reach your own conclusion.
Study because it will be on the test.
Their are several makes of HD clone bikes.

[MadDuck]

JackD,

I think the S&S motors fmj and Aaron are running are sportster based engines and the ones you are referring to are the big twin construction.

Sportser based customs are quite rare.

[JohnR]

Hey Jack,

Are the 10,000 S&S case based M/C's made by a Motorcycle Manufacturer or an Assembler? Who issued the VIN or CASE numbers? What criteria is used to differentiate between a manufacturer and an assembler? Thats the real question.

Were 500+ of each type (not mfg, but specific type) made?

You not sharing your supposed find make me suspect...

[JohnR]

OBTW: 193 items and 4348 views might indicate a "HOT  BUTTON" that deserves some attention from the rulers.

Might, but in my case is directly proportional to my level of boredom at home!

[JackD]

They are all manufactured to DOT specifications just like a Honda or a Yamaha and sold by franchised dealers as new and several brands exceed the minimum numbers required for SCTA and are available to the general public.
It is true that Sportster type specials are rare but that was not the subject.
 The problem was created when the cases that were from S+S for example were previously in common use and then without due consideration they changed the rule but also left the S+S based records in place they think but don't even know.
You might start your research project in the local phone book, I know I did.