Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 3318893 times)

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Offline Frankie7799

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1695 on: October 11, 2012, 11:48:22 AM »
MM, no insomina just lots of time to read while at work and before my kids get up for school in the morning.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1696 on: October 12, 2012, 06:48:16 AM »
So all things considered, it could have been much worse, but wasn't.

The repairs won't take that long, so when is the next dyno session!

My old pal, Dumb Luck.

I want this engine done, dynoed, and in the chassis no later than Christmas.  I’m looking into engine dyno facilities rather than a chassis dyno.

Midget,

Well, better Dumb Luck than "bein' born unda a bad sign" where, "if it wasn't for Bad Luck, you wouldn't have no luck at all."   (Sheesh, now I'm riskin' alienating Clapton & King.)

The proposed schedule is probably realistic, unless a complete set of dyno adaptors need to be fabricated.   Even that could be fast-tracked though, depending on who you choose to do the dyno session.  Talk to Jim Fletcher @ PPD and double check with Mel to be certain that he is willing to undertake your project.   It wouldn't hurt to have another choice as a third option.

Is there anybody out there in Landspeed Land who is aware of a racing engine shop (in the Chicago, Joliet, Rockford, Madison, Green Bay, Milwaukee circle)with a dyno, who has adaptors for MG "A" series engines and/or is willing to dyno them with the clients adaptors??
Let Midget know if you do.   And thanks in advance for your thoughts on the problem.
 :cheers:
Fordboy
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I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1697 on: October 12, 2012, 10:46:04 AM »
Quote
Frankie, you must have insomnia, but thanks for taking the time.

No such thing as insomnia. Sleep . . . is work on the race car wasted.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1698 on: October 12, 2012, 03:32:46 PM »
Valve Stem sizes & Clearance in Longman Head, Post Mortem.

Midget,

Sorry for the various delays.  At long last, INFORMATION........

Chart of dimensions after checking sizes of all parts with micrometer & dial bore gages.  Same micrometer used to check valve sizes & set dial bore gages:
Cyl #/Type   Valve #   Valve Stem dia.   Clearance
      1 Ex        1          .2790/.2793      .0015/.0010
      1 In        2          .2793/.2796         unknown
      2 In        3          .2794/.2798      .0020/.0004
      2 Ex        4          .2788/.2792      .0017/.0012
      3 Ex        5          .2790/.2792      .0020/.0014
      3 In        6          .2793/.2796      .0015/.0010
      4 In        7          .2793/.2795      .0020/.0004
      4 Ex        8          .2790/.2793      .0018/.0010
The guides, as opposed to being 'straight' & cylindrical in shape, are 'bellmouthed' at both the top and bottom of the guide.  I suspect that this is a result of a worn guide hone/worn trueing sleeve or poor guide honing technique/operator error.   Depending on how the clearance was measured, this probably contributed to a erroneous conclusion about the actual clearance.

Valve Stem sizes & Clearance in Longman Head, Post Mortem.  Part Deux, more information........

Midget,

Not that this is of any real significance, BUT, have just this moment parted the offending inlet valve from its' dying embrace with its' valve guide..........      I have some observations I want to share with you.......

A)  Valve stem measures as in the above chart:  .2793"/.2796" dia.   The valve stem is 'burnished' from its' intimate contact with the ID of the guide.   My opinion is that the hard-coating on the valve stem prevented a permanent friction weld of the 2 parts.   The stem does not appear to be deformed in the guide area.

B)  The valve guide honing pattern can still be observed in the small areas of the ID of the guide where it is NOT heavily burnished.   The burnishing is no doubt a result of the high speed copulation with the valve.   Guide bore ID clearance, as measured with the dial bore gage, varies from .0020" to about .0001"/.0002", not nearly enough.   This indicates to me that the parts did not have enough clearance to begin with, (although there was probably slightly more clearance than there is now.....), and as the engine came up to temp, the guide started to wear/burnish to provide clearance.   The hard silicon aluminum bronze guide alloy simply can not "provide" additional clearance fast enough at high engine speeds, hence the debacle............

Since Dr. Zog's SexWax (Tm) may not suffice as an assembly lube to prevent this problem again, my recommendation is:  More initial valve to guide clearance..........    As we have been dis(cuss)ing.

I'll have all the bits ready for your perusal/inspection on the morrow.

Oh yeah, got things apart by grinding off the 'buldged' tip of the stem, freezing the assembly, then heating the guide with a propane torch
and then twisting the da** things apart with 2 pliers, multiple times.............

All that freezer work has made me thirsty, have to take a break for a porter or a stout........
 :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Tman

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1699 on: October 12, 2012, 03:37:51 PM »
I recommend something lighter, maybe a Hefe-weisen. Of course it is about 70 out here.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1700 on: October 12, 2012, 03:44:38 PM »
I recommend something lighter, maybe a Hefe-weisen. Of course it is about 70 out here.

Excellent choice Tman!!  I was also considering an Octoberfest of some sort.   Am enjoying my annual Octoberfest/Marzen kick.  But broken parts (and cold weather!!  49 F. here!) always send me toward: the dark side..........
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: and kind thoughts,
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Captthundarr

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1701 on: October 12, 2012, 06:22:04 PM »
Dag Fordboy, Dr. Zog's, I'm having tubular flashbacks of my youth. :cheers:
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1702 on: October 15, 2012, 11:33:41 PM »
Not what I expected –

Sorry, no pics tonight – I left the Nikon at work.

To update, my dyno session of three weeks ago created a friction fit between my #1 intake valve and its too-close-for-comfort guide.  I expected to find a gnarled up cam on the corresponding lobe.  While it’s polished a bit more than the other lobes, it doesn’t appear to be damaged.

What I wasn’t expecting to see was galling on the 1 and 2 exhaust lobes, just as it lifter approaches the top of the lobe.  A similar galling exists on the back side of the # 3 exhaust lobe, also toward the top.

From the base circle to the ramps, the wear is very even – something I was worried about given the rather radical lift I was asking the tappets to accommodate.

The lifters look good, save the #1 intake, which seems to have a bit of a burr on the chamfer – that’s what my fingernail tells me, anyway.  Compared to the other seven, it seems a little coarse, but compared to a brand new one, one that isn’t broken in at all, I can’t tell a lot of difference.

It’s a tough call – truth is I keep pulling parts out before they completely fail, so I don’t have much experience on what would be considered “normal wear”.  The other option is let it break and perform an autopsy, but then you have to try to figure out which part is which in the oil pan.

The new valve and guide arrived today – I’ll be packing it up and shipping it down to Fordboy, along with the lifters for his opinion.  I’m also going to send the cam down for a more experienced analysis, and then it will likely go out to Dema for repair – or maybe not.

On another note, I stopped by NVR racing today to check out their dyno facility.  It’s a Superflow SF-902.  They were knowledgeable, and answered a boatload of very specific questions I posed to them.  They’re a full service shop, but on the way out, I was stopped in my tracks by a 12 cylinder short block I simply couldn’t identify.

Testarossa.  

Which reinforces something I’ve come to understand and only recently really appreciate.  C&S did my machine work, and last year, a customer had dropped off a Duesenberg head by Mel for repairs and a valve job.  Just up the street is the driveshaft shop that repaired mine last year, and there were some very esoteric pieces waiting for pickup on the shelf.  Streets Chassis and LA welding are both on the northwest side of the Milwaukee metro area, and MG Limited is a twenty minute drive south of my house.

I am surrounded by a score of really outstanding racing shops, and I’m beginning to realize just how lucky I am to be doing this in this town.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 12:48:39 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1703 on: October 16, 2012, 01:56:44 AM »
Terminology: I'll bet that you meant lobe "flanks" when you wrote "ramps". I'm not just nit-picking, since solid-lifter-intended cam lobes can also have true "ramps"- to very gradually move the lifter to zero-clearance of the valvetrain (and similarly at valve cosing). Traditionally, ramps were standard fare, but some cam grinders have forsaken them (from whom I will never again buy a camshaft!).

Waiting to read about your engine dyno session...
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1704 on: October 16, 2012, 09:34:38 AM »
Mornin', Jack -

You guys keep me honest.

True - I do suffer from a lack of command of the nomenclature, but this time, I actually said what I meant.  :-D  

The ramp area, where the clearance gets taken up between the base circle and the flanks, was a big concern.  The lifters are very small - to the point that Fordboy and I actually discussed mushroom tappets.  The cam opens very quickly, and it was an issue that Elgin pointed out, and designed the cam accordingly.  I can report no wear issues on the ramp area, so this observation puts that concern behind me.

Edit - Okay - now that I read that, I do sound like an idiot.   :|

The flank area where the cam starts to actuate the lifter after the ramp takes up the slack is fine.

But the ramp is fine, too.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 10:32:30 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1705 on: October 16, 2012, 10:40:56 AM »

   1 Max Lift or Nose
   2 Flank
   3 Opening Clearance Ramp
   4 Closing Clearance Ramp
   5 Base Circle
   6 Exhaust Opening Timing Figure
   7 Exhaust Closing Timing Figure
   8 Intake Opening Timing Figure
   9 Intake Closing Timing Figure
  10 Lobe Separation
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1706 on: October 16, 2012, 11:00:16 AM »
Dean, thanks - that will get printed and taped to the inside of the cover of the tool box along with the "11 dead sparkplugs" sticker Fordboy handed me Saturday.  :cheers:
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline 38flattie

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1707 on: October 16, 2012, 12:36:13 PM »
Chris, the amount of technical data in this thread is staggering- I've never learned so much about beer! Lol!

I can't wait to see this car and you in person!
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1708 on: October 16, 2012, 12:45:11 PM »
Chris, the amount of technical data in this thread is staggering- I've never learned so much about beer! Lol!

I can't wait to see this car and you in person!

That is THE funniest post on this entire diary - Thanks, Buddy!

I've done some home brewing, but my engine building has proven to be more successful.  :-P
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 03:47:13 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Tman

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1709 on: October 16, 2012, 02:13:36 PM »
Chris, the amount of technical data in this thread is staggering- I've never learned so much about beer! Lol!

I can't wait to see this car and you in person!

That is THE funniest post on this entire diary - Thanks, Buddy!

I've done some home brewing, but my engine building has proven to be more successful.  :-P

I am doing both right now!  Send me your addy again Chris.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 03:45:12 PM by Milwaukee Midget »