Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 3295473 times)

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Offline Glen

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1635 on: September 27, 2012, 05:33:51 PM »
BTW/FYI  Fuel is cheaper at Smiths in Wendover (Nevada) the the rest of the Utah side of town. They also have booze that's cheaper then the liqueur store
Glen
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Offline dw230

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1636 on: September 27, 2012, 05:49:59 PM »
Only a penny at most. The same price as the Piolet across the street last week. $3.78 for 85 octane.

Still no spell check

DW
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1637 on: September 28, 2012, 10:20:00 AM »
Mornin', all.

I just noticed this last night - despite taking a picture of it on Tuesday - and I seem to recall Wisdonm making mention of it on Tuesday -



If you look closely, you can just make out the imprint of the shape of the combustion chamber to the left of where the valve introduced itself to this member of the J&E Quartet.

Squish, yes - Kiss, no.


While I don't have the figures in front of me, I know the calculations we came up with should not have put the piston this close to the head, including piston rock and expansion. 

The Cometic three piece gaskets get raves, but they are tough to physically measure.  My conversation with Fordboy this morning led me to the same thought I was thinking before I went to bed last night - I'm going to need a slightly thicker gasket.  I've seen engines where the piston and head have just touched with no observable long term problems, but I'm simply not comfortable running this thing that close.

That said, had the head gasket been thicker this go around, it could have left more of the valve and valve guide hanging out in the cylinder, and possibly have made the situation worse.

There’s a fellow named Dumb Luck who has been my companion on this trip.  I’m grateful for his help, but I really want to get to the point where his services become redundant.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Freud

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1638 on: September 28, 2012, 10:38:16 AM »
Lighter
Since '63

Offline Tman

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1639 on: September 28, 2012, 10:42:02 AM »
Is that the cylinder that the guide came loos in? If so I would say the piston slapping the valve knocked the guide loose. Clay is your friend.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1640 on: September 28, 2012, 11:57:10 AM »


Freud - thanks for the clean-up
Is that the cylinder that the guide came loos in? If so I would say the piston slapping the valve knocked the guide loose. Clay is your friend.

I have a very good friend named Clay, who is always up for cocktails . . . Yes, Clay is my friend!  :cheers:

That's the one.  We're convinced that the tolerances were too tight in the valve guide, because in the #2 cylinder, we also found the stem a bit stiff in the guide - again, something I should have checked. 

Well, that was timely - Fordboy just called and told me that all of the intake guides are on the tight side. 

Tough to get a micrometer on clay, and given the tight tolerances we're dealing with, I need numbers more reliable than clay can provide.

The valve to piston clearance on the dry build was excellent  - we checked it with a dial indicator.  But the piston to head clearance I’m a bit uncomfortable with.

Slowly peeling back the onion, layer by layer . . .


"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1641 on: September 28, 2012, 12:04:00 PM »
Quote
Tough to get a micrometer on clay, and given the tight tolerances we're dealing with, I need numbers more reliable than clay can provide.

And that didn't work out very well. As with all things, tools left in the toolbox don't help. With clay you can turn the engine over, pull the heads and see what is going on dynamically. Put some small dots slightly thicker than your calculated dimension.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1642 on: September 28, 2012, 12:26:42 PM »
Quote
Tough to get a micrometer on clay, and given the tight tolerances we're dealing with, I need numbers more reliable than clay can provide.

And that didn't work out very well. As with all things, tools left in the toolbox don't help. With clay you can turn the engine over, pull the heads and see what is going on dynamically. Put some small dots slightly thicker than your calculated dimension.

Dean, I think clay would probably be a good go-no go gauge for valve to piston clearance on a looser engine, but as of two minutes ago, I'm convinced that the tool in the toolbox I should have looked for was a plug gauge.

Hmmm . . . small dots.   Are you suggesting clay for checking the piston to valve clearance, or piston to head?  :roll:  Hmmm . . .

I think I need to get an accurate gasket thickness under clamped pressure, which I should be able to do with a dial indicator.

Just got off of the phone with Fordboy - the intake valve to guide clearance on the rest of the intake valves is .0006 to .0008 - it should be about double that.

Right now, I can say with an unusual degree of confidence that the guide seized up tight on the valve, and the valve pulled it right out of the head.  As always, the investigation will continue.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Elmo Rodge

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1643 on: September 28, 2012, 12:27:32 PM »
Do both.  :wink: Wayno

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1644 on: September 28, 2012, 04:31:54 PM »
Some thoughts on precision, tolerancing, and quality needed for racing engines.........

I just finished up the post-mortem measurements on the cylinder head, and have quickly discussed what I found with Chris, by phone.  I'm going to post up the measurements & some photos, but before I do that, I have some thoughts.  I'm just going to tilt my head and let them spill out.

I've been building performance and racing engines a long time, longer than I'd care to admit.   A person can't have a long career in this field, without a track record of success.   And no one can be successful, for any amount of time, without the requisite performance AND reliability from their product.   Think about that for a minute, and then ask yourself, "What is required to achieve this?"

Inherent in the quest for this performance and reliability is the need to understand precision.  The dictionary definition of precision is as follows:

pre·ci·sion
n.
    1. The state or quality of being precise; exactness.
    2.
       a. The ability of a measurement to be consistently reproduced.
       b. The number of significant digits to which a value has been reliably measured.
adj.
    1. Used or intended for accurate or exact measurement: a precision tool.
    2. Made so as to vary minimally from a set standard: precision components.
    3. Of or characterized by accurate action: precision bombing.

Precision means different things to a framing carpenter vs. a finish (trim) carpenter.   They use different tolerancing values.   The same is true for a general machinist vs. the operator of a crankshaft grinder.  What does this have to do with racing engines?   Only to lead into the idea of "tolerancing".   It's pointless to ask carpenters to work to +/-.001", their work doesn't need this kind of precision.   But, while +/-.001" may be OK for some CAD/CAM machined parts, this sort of tolerancing is too tight for say, gaskets.   For crankshafts, however, (even stock cranks) +/-.001" is too wide a tolerance to be considered precise.  The point of all this is that:  Racing engines require differing levels of precision, and tolerancing, in different areas.   Quality then, as far as racing engines are concerned, is the elevated level at which precision & tolerancing can be sustained or repeated.   For it does no good to fit 3 pistons correctly and the 4th incorrectly.

Some parts need to be sized (or fitted) in thousanths (.001") of an inch, others need to be sized/fitted in ten-thousanths (.0001") of an inch.  For other parts, say pushrod overall length, +/-.010" would be acceptable.  Parts can be made to almost ANY tolerance, IF, cost is no object.  But what is the point?   The trick is to know what the acceptable level of precision and tolerancing is for a given part or assembly.

That is what Chris is dealing with here.   Parts fitted & assembled outside of the TOLERANCES needed to be workable & reliable in/at the rpm range the engine will operate.   The cause here is: valves fitted too tightly into their silicon bronze guides.   NOT, lack of valve to piston clearance, or how that valve to piston clearance was measured.   Turns out that the #1 inlet valve has the largest stem diameter AND the smallest valve guide inside diameter, giving the least amount of clearance, less than what was required.   No big surprise then, that this was the valve that got tagged by its' piston.   At high & sustained rpm, even the higher pressure valve springs could not close the valve as it was seizing in the guide.  The piston closed it, and the resulting shockwave was transferred throughout the remainder of the valve train, loosening the rocker adjuster.  And things went downhill fast from there.......     I'm just glad that more damage didn't occur.

A few pages back, (reply #1506, page 101) Chris has posted up the valve to piston clearances, as measured with a degree wheel and a dial indicator with .001" graduations.   Determining these measurements, (at the various positions of the piston, both BTDC & ATDC) with clay, would be difficult, time consuming and subjective, rather than precise.( +/-.001")   All clay dynamically reveals is the closest a valve gets to a piston.   It does not reveal where this occurs, as the dial indicator & degree wheel do.   And while we are on the subject, NEITHER method reveals the actual dynamic clearance at 8500rpm (or whatever rpm) under load or backed off the throttle.   The static "clearances" used to set-up dynamic valve to piston "margins of safety" are based on several factors.   Most notable are valve train mass; v/t moment of inertia; camshaft 'negative' accelerations, rpm range used, etc, etc.   Only a spintron can reveal the dynamic conditions likely to be encountered at operating speed in the valve train.   Unfortunately, spintron time is a little outside of the current budget.    Like I've stated many times before: "It's complicated."   AND, additional complications are added when you are trying to determine which came first, the chicken or the egg.
 :cheers:
Fordboy
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 04:42:42 PM by fordboy628 »
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Offline Jon

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1645 on: September 28, 2012, 04:48:42 PM »


I think I need to get an accurate gasket thickness under clamped pressure, which I should be able to do with a dial indicator.



Easy way to check gasket thickness when compressed;
Punch a hole in it in a non critical area of the head gasket
Put a small piece of lead shot there "just" bigger than the thickness of your head gasket
Tension down the head
Remove the head
Measure the lead shot with a micrometer
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Offline Tman

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1646 on: September 28, 2012, 05:45:01 PM »
Fordboy, we are just discussing/asking questions. None of us are questioning your abilities in this rather unfortunate incident. Mixing and  matching custom components can cause a person to have these types of issues to pop up.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1647 on: September 28, 2012, 06:00:31 PM »
Tman,

Thank you for your kind assessment, and I completely agree with your comment about mixing & matching.   My comments were not addressed to anyone in particular.   Like I said, I had some thoughts, and I just tilted my head & let 'em spill out.   As it says at the bottom of my posts:   "IF all you want is the skin off the cat, it really doesn't matter HOW you skin the cat."

 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1648 on: September 28, 2012, 06:04:54 PM »

I think I need to get an accurate gasket thickness under clamped pressure, which I should be able to do with a dial indicator.


Easy way to check gasket thickness when compressed;
Punch a hole in it in a non critical area of the head gasket
Put a small piece of lead shot there "just" bigger than the thickness of your head gasket
Tension down the head
Remove the head
Measure the lead shot with a micrometer

Jon,

A very clever way to get the measurement.   And one I had not heard of before.   Thank you for sharing your tip!
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #1649 on: September 28, 2012, 09:59:23 PM »

Head gasket thk: .025" net              (After milling .012" from block, changes piston height from -.004" to +.008"  Actual gasket .033")
 

Here's why the piston is kissing the head.

With a micrometer at the steel fire ring, it measures .031.  Compressed, the gasket measures .029.    The actual pop-up was .0065 after everything was put together. 



By the way, that Lufkin micrometer was my father's.  He worked at Collins back during the Apollo program.  It's quite likely there are parts sitting on the moon that were measured with that very micrometer.

The original spec called for .025 - we're at .0225.

There's a small tab at the side of the block deck that is machined flush with the block - I simply locked down the dial indicator and clamped down the head with both the gasket in place and with it removed.



By the way, I got that dial indicator at a pawn shop up the street.  It's quite likely it has never measured anything of particular historical significance.

Not yet, anyway.

I'll be ordering up a new gasket, methinks - a tad thicker.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll: