Author Topic: Milwaukee Midget  (Read 3300310 times)

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Offline Geo

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2580 on: May 26, 2013, 12:32:48 PM »
Thanks Fordboy!

Not to derail this Webber carb lesson, however some applies to all carbs.

I received an emergency call to get a Jag 3.8 mk2 running properly for a friends daughter’s wedding. She wanted this restored small Jag sporting sedan as her wedding car. It's beautiful dark blue, red interior, chrome. But it idled at 2800 rpm.  After checking for vacuum leaks and finding none I pulled the carbs, not a fun job as your hands get shredded to reach the lower carb mounting stud nuts. One hand down at the front by the distributor and the other down at the rear of the inline six, yes you need a wide reach as you lean over the pristine fender, turning the nut one flat at a time on fine threads.

Anyway, carbs off and check the butterflies. One scraped on the flat leading to the edge and dented on the edge. One in backwards and worn on the edge near the shaft. The carb spends most of its time slightly open and can shift slightly front to rear, better make sure your springs are on straight or you will pull the shaft to one side wearing away the edge of the butterfly.  Must have had the equivalent of a 1/2 inch hole in the intake.  :-o

Combining four carbs into two mostly good ones it is good to drive on the special day. BTW these were set up by a carb expert a couple of years ago. Never trust anyone. Always check all work done. Including mine.  :cheers:

Geo

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2581 on: May 27, 2013, 11:02:34 AM »
How to Modify your Weber Carburetor properly  OR

Weber Carburetor Porn!!!!  OR

How to turn your expensive Italian/Spanish engine bit into an undriveable piece of crap . . . .   Part three . . . .  (yes, this will be a multi-step tutorial . . . .)


Although these modifications will be specifically for Weber Carbs, the concepts behind the ideas will work for most throttle shaft carburetors that utilize fixed venturies ("chokes")and fixed boosters ("aux venturies").

I shouldn't have to say this, BUT, if your carb is not clean and in PERFECT working order, deal with that beforehand.   Buy a rebuild/tuning manual SPECIFICALLY for your carb, as I am not going to cover basic rebuilding/installation/synchronization/vacuum leaks/linkage.   LOTS of time is wasted trying to tune Weber carbs that need to be rebuilt.   DO NOT waste your time on an old, used Weber!   Just clean and rebuild it first.    Replace any/all worn and/or questionable parts.    If you can't tell if the part needs to be replaced, you should not be rebuilding the carb!    Take/send the carb to a Weber specialist, it's cheaper in the long run.

Before starting, a disclaimer:
Carb modification, especially Weber carb modification, should not be undertaken lightly.   Weber parts are expensive, often difficult to obtain, AND, easily turned into junk by the enthusiastic, unwary, would be tuner.   The best method is to amass a large pile of GENUINE Weber parts to start with, AND, have access to a flow bench LARGE ENOUGH TO FLOW CARBURETORS, to verify your work/"improvements".    Caveat emptor.


So Ya Wanna "Fix/Improve" Your Weber Carburetor?

What you need to get started.

Below are a couple of photos of a flowbench adaptor I constructed to flow Weber carbs, one side at a time.   This particular adaptor is designed for Weber DCOE/DCO side drafts.    You will need to adapt to your carb in a similar fashion.    This adaptor is constructed from MDF (medium density fiberboard) and sealed with 2 coats of polyurethane varnish.    Before anybody comments about wood Vs. metal adaptors, you need to realize that your Superflow flowbench is made from plywood, covered with laminate material and sealed with silicone caulk.    Effective, non-leaking adaptors can be made out of various substances, say beryllium or platinum if you have enough time and cash.   Wood/plywood/MDF works great, is easy to shape and doesn't leak when sealed.   You just need to check for leakage after you fabricate them and resolve any leaks you find.    This adaptor had zero leakage.


6.5"/7" squares provide enough material for the S/flow 5" square bolt pattern      extra height provides room for throttle lever actuation & better simulates a manifold.

The mounting studs are drilled & tapped into the MDF and sealed.    This adaptor has a 45mm "manifold" opening to match the throttle plates of this size carb.   You need a flow bench that will draw approximately 300 cfm @ 28" inches of water for 45 Webers, one side at a time.    Flowing one side at a time doubles the flowbench time to flow a 2 barrel carb, but you can be aware of any differences in flow, from one side to the other . . . . . .    and take the time to find out why and correct the problem.

Flowing both barrels together or larger carbs requires a flowbench with a higher flow capability.    Flowing 4 barrel carbs requires a REALLY big bench, AND, they still test at reduced pressures.

That's enough to get you started.    Put on your thinking caps and start makin' chips . . . . . .
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2582 on: May 27, 2013, 02:51:06 PM »
Chris,
Tomorrow is the big day, I really want to write John a check for $100+ so make it happen!

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2583 on: May 27, 2013, 03:29:41 PM »
Rex, we're on the same page.

As we speak, Fordboy is finishing up the carb.  I'm hopeful that the extra 20 cfm he's found in the carb can help - HELP translate into the extra 11.8 hp that will empty your pen - and your wallet.

The carb we used on dyno day to get our best numbers is not the one he's been working on.  In fact, it was a back-up carb that he did a down-and-dirty tweeking on just to get us through the session.  We've got extra jets and emulsion tubes that arrived last week, and enough probable combinations that if there is anything holding back this engine, I doubt it will be the carburation.

He's promised to post up some pics.  Kate and I stopped by yesterday for a lovely afternoon of patio patter, grilling and chilling with Fordboy and the long suffering yet still effervescent Mrs. Fordboy.  The attention to details he's throwing into this effort is well beyond the norm - and well above my skill set.  I'm optimistic the work he's done should put us very close.

I do have to get this back in the car in the next week or so - I'm taking it to the British Car Field Day in Sussex, WI. on Father's Day.  I'm pretty certain it will be the only LSR car at the show . . . And certainly the loudest. 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline 38flattie

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2584 on: May 27, 2013, 03:35:16 PM »
You guys are the best - Thanks!

CONFIRMED - May 28, for those of you who wanted to wait.

I intend to extract HORSES and DOLLARS.  :wink:

Good luck tomorrow, Chris! :cheers:
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2585 on: May 27, 2013, 04:00:50 PM »
Chris
Good luck tomorrow for you and Fordboy. Bad luck for me and my checkbook, but a worthy cause. :cheers:

Ron
Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2586 on: May 27, 2013, 09:36:51 PM »

Combining four carbs into two mostly good ones it is good to drive on the special day. BTW these were set up by a carb expert a couple of years ago. Never trust anyone. Always check all work done. Including mine.  :cheers:

Geo


I can't agree more.  I admit, my lack of experience to know what to look for has caused me some difficulty - the tight valve guide comes to mind. 

Being still new to this engine building thing, the learning curve has been steep.  I'm confident now in the direction we're going, and remain optimistic and realistic about the potential and the results.

In a lot of ways, it's been more a lesson in philosophy than engineering.

Stay tuned - I'll bring the camera this time.

Signing off.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2587 on: May 27, 2013, 11:30:14 PM »
Best of luck big fella, we're all cheering you on. :cheers:
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2588 on: May 27, 2013, 11:41:17 PM »
Midget,

Ground control to major Tom
Ground control to major Tom
Take your protein pills and put your helmet on
(Ten) Ground control (Nine) to major Tom (Eight)
(Seven, six) Commencing countdown (Five), engines on (Four)
(Three, two) Check ignition (One) and may the electric gods (Blastoff) be with you. . . . . . .  :-o   (sic)

We'll see if you make the grade in a few hours. . . . . . . :roll:

T minus 3:47 and counting. . . . . . . :-D

Astroboy

Major Tom,

You think the little jewel can power you up to exit speed with something from this array of bits?

2 carbs,   3 manifolds,  etc,  etc,    not sure if there are any brains in that photo . . . . . .

T minus 09:20 and counting . . . . .
 :cheers:
Astroboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2589 on: May 28, 2013, 12:05:00 AM »
How to Modify your Weber Carburetor properly  OR

Weber Carburetor Porn!!!!  OR

How to turn your expensive Italian/Spanish engine bit into an undriveable piece of crap . . . .   Part three . . . .  (yes, this will be a multi-step tutorial . . . .)


Although these modifications will be specifically for Weber Carbs, the concepts behind the ideas will work for most throttle shaft carburetors that utilize fixed venturies ("chokes")and fixed boosters ("aux venturies").

I shouldn't have to say this, BUT, if your carb is not clean and in PERFECT working order, deal with that beforehand.   Buy a rebuild/tuning manual SPECIFICALLY for your carb, as I am not going to cover basic rebuilding/installation/synchronization/vacuum leaks/linkage.   LOTS of time is wasted trying to tune Weber carbs that need to be rebuilt.   DO NOT waste your time on an old, used Weber!   Just clean and rebuild it first.    Replace any/all worn and/or questionable parts.    If you can't tell if the part needs to be replaced, you should not be rebuilding the carb!    Take/send the carb to a Weber specialist, it's cheaper in the long run.

Before starting, a disclaimer:
Carb modification, especially Weber carb modification, should not be undertaken lightly.   Weber parts are expensive, often difficult to obtain, AND, easily turned into junk by the enthusiastic, unwary, would be tuner.   The best method is to amass a large pile of GENUINE Weber parts to start with, AND, have access to a flow bench LARGE ENOUGH TO FLOW CARBURETORS, to verify your work/"improvements".    Caveat emptor.


So Ya Wanna "Fix/Improve" Your Weber Carburetor?

What you need to get started.

Below are a couple of photos of a flowbench adaptor I constructed to flow Weber carbs, one side at a time.   This particular adaptor is designed for Weber DCOE/DCO side drafts.    You will need to adapt to your carb in a similar fashion.    This adaptor is constructed from MDF (medium density fiberboard) and sealed with 2 coats of polyurethane varnish.    Before anybody comments about wood Vs. metal adaptors, you need to realize that your Superflow flowbench is made from plywood, covered with laminate material and sealed with silicone caulk.    Effective, non-leaking adaptors can be made out of various substances, say beryllium or platinum if you have enough time and cash.   Wood/plywood/MDF works great, is easy to shape and doesn't leak when sealed.   You just need to check for leakage after you fabricate them and resolve any leaks you find.    This adaptor had zero leakage.


6.5"/7" squares provide enough material for the S/flow 5" square bolt pattern      extra height provides room for throttle lever actuation & better simulates a manifold.

The mounting studs are drilled & tapped into the MDF and sealed.    This adaptor has a 45mm "manifold" opening to match the throttle plates of this size carb.   You need a flow bench that will draw approximately 300 cfm @ 28" inches of water for 45 Webers, one side at a time.    Flowing one side at a time doubles the flowbench time to flow a 2 barrel carb, but you can be aware of any differences in flow, from one side to the other . . . . . .    and take the time to find out why and correct the problem.

Flowing both barrels together or larger carbs requires a flowbench with a higher flow capability.    Flowing 4 barrel carbs requires a REALLY big bench, AND, they still test at reduced pressures.

That's enough to get you started.    Put on your thinking caps and start makin' chips . . . . . .
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Fordboy

Major Tom, et all,

As promised, Weber flow testing, with adaptor, in situ . . . . .                Superflow 1020 Flowbench in action

Slow but sure, one side at a time . . . . . . . .

Unmodified carb @ start  240 cfm/side
Modified carb     @ finish 270 cfm/side        12.5% flow gain & retained signal strength @ aux venturi (booster)

Will give a rundown on each modification and the flow gain for each, with pictures of the before & after of the parts, after the dyno session.    This was a Spanish made Weber, so some of the gains were large compared to an Italian made Weber.    The Spanish castings are not as nicely finished as the older Italian made parts.    That's a "World Economy" in action . . . .

I want them to flow like an Atlas rocket . . . . . .
 :cheers:
Astroboy
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 12:24:15 AM by fordboy628 »
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline salt27

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2590 on: May 28, 2013, 12:08:25 AM »
Chris,
  We're pulling for you and hope the little motor pulls for you too. :cheers:

Can't wait for results,  Don

Offline Graham in Aus

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2591 on: May 28, 2013, 12:57:29 AM »
Good luck guys!   :wink:

The Weber tuning is great Fordboy, learning all the time!  Cheers!  :cheers:

Online Jack Gifford

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2592 on: May 28, 2013, 01:52:29 AM »
with something from this array of bits?
2 carbs,   3 manifolds,  etc,  etc,...
Where's the nitro can?
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2593 on: May 28, 2013, 06:40:37 AM »
with something from this array of bits?
2 carbs,   3 manifolds,  etc,  etc,...
Where's the nitro can?

Down THAT path lies MADNESS!  :cheers:

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

gkabbt

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Re: Milwaukee Midget
« Reply #2594 on: May 28, 2013, 06:43:22 AM »
Chris,
  We're pulling for you and hope the little motor pulls for you too. :cheers:

Can't wait for results,  Don

Yeah.....What Don said!   :cheers:

Gregg