Landracing Forum

Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: velocity on September 16, 2015, 04:16:04 PM

Title: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 16, 2015, 04:16:04 PM
LSR COMMUNITY: I am starting this thread to create a KNOWLEDGE BASE for the activities of the Utah Alliance. I respectfully ask that you only post items that reflect thoughtful, considered ideas and comments and keep the emotional rants to a minimum. Remember the ENTIRE world can read what you write in haste and while it may be YOUR opinion, it WILL reflect back on the entire land speed racing community. We must learn to speak with a single voice if we are to achieve a dynamic restoration program for the Bonneville Salt Flats. If you are bursting with rage, send me a personal email and we will try to get you some facts to cool your thoughts.


UTAH ALLIANCE
working with
SAVE THE SALT COALITION                                                                
 
Contact:   Louise Ann Noeth    C-805.312.0893    louise@landspeedproductions.biz
 
Stakeholders Meet to Discuss Fate of Bonneville Salt Flats

September 14, 2015 (Wendover, UT) - The Save the Salt Coalition and Utah Alliance met with a variety of stakeholder groups at the Bonneville Salt Flats (BSF) in Utah this week to discuss potential solutions for restoring the historic racing venue. The BSF has been in the spotlight following cancellation this year of five major racing events due to weather and deteriorating salt conditions.  In response, the Utah Alliance organized a tour of the area with government officials who oversee the BSF, mine operators, geologists, engineers, and other stakeholder groups.  The tour allowed the parties to then engage in follow-up discussions and begin identifying tangible restoration actions.
 
"Everyone displayed a willingness to come together to find a solution," said Dennis Sullivan, Chairman of the Utah Alliance,  "There was a mutual respect demonstrated among the public agencies, private entities and racers.  We all need to learn more from each other as we all have specific observations and experiences that need to be combined with scientific data to provide a viable way forward."
 
The Save the Salt Coalition and Utah Alliance were joined by staff from Utah Governor Herbert’s office, Senator Mike Lee’s office, Bureau of Land Management, Intrepid Potash-Wendover, Utah Department of Natural Resources, University of Utah’s Dr. Brenda Bowen, Mayor of Wendover, Utah, Councilman of West Wendover, Nevada, and a number of land speed racers.
 
The Utah Alliance and Save the Salt Coalition will next present a position statement to the stakeholders identifying a number of short- and long-term actions to be considered.  Priority will be given to determine how to expand brine pumping.
 
"Although concerns about deterioration at Bonneville have existed for decades, today marked the first time officials representing government, industry and racers sat at the same table to discuss solutions," said Doug Evans, Chairman of the Save the Salt Coalition.  "We are finally at the starting line in the race to save Bonneville."
 
The groups indicated that no quick fixes existed to resolve issues related to the condition of the salt.  However, they believe that given the high level of cooperation, the historic, internationally famous speedway will eventually be restored to safe racing conditions.
 
___________________

The Utah Alliance is a group of land speed racing individuals that live in or have connections with the State of Utah through employment or governmental agencies.

The purpose of the Utah Alliance is to work in Conjunction with the Save the Salt Organization on a local level to:
 - Preserve Our National Treasure - The Bonneville Salt Flats  
 - Develop and execute a Comprehensive Reclamation Plan

Utah Alliance Website: www.save-the-salt.org

The organization of the Utah Alliance is as follows:

Leadership:


DENNIS SULLIVAN - Chairman, USFRA President(penneyanteracin@gmail.com)

RICK VESCO - Save the Salt Founding Member, USFRA (teamvestcoracing@inforwest.com)

LARRY VOLK - USFRA Founding member(larry@rockymountainracedeck.com)

GARY WILKINSON - Save The Salt Vice Chairman, USFRA (gary_ellen@g.com)

HUGH COLTHARP - USFRA Treasurer, USFRA Founding member (hcgarage@comcast.net)

TOM BURKLAND - Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials (tom.burkland@peterseninc.com)

RUSS EYRES - Save The Salt Treasurer, SCTA/BNI Liaison (reyres@sanit.com)

ROGER LESSMAN - Nevada Liaison, USFRA (775-513-9030, roger@clickllc.us)

Partners:

"LandSpeed" LOUISE ANN NOETH - Media Contact, Bonneville Historian (louise@landspeedproductions.biz)

TERRY NISH - Nish Motorsports, Research & Racing History (terry@nishmotorsports.com)

MIKE NISH - Nish Motorsports, Research & Racing History (mike@nishmotorsports.com)

RUSS DEANE - SEMA/Save The Salt Legal Counsel (russ@russdeane.com)

ASHLEY AILSWORTH - SEMA/Save The Salt Legal Counsel, ashleya@sema.org

STUART GOSSWEIN - SEMA/Save The Salt Public Relations (stuart@sema.org)

CHAD BOOTH - AYL TV Salt Lake City, Media,  chad@ayltv.com

Supporters:

DICK ROSETTA - Utah Sports Hall Of Fame, Past Salt Lake Tribune Sports Editor

GREG MILLER - Director, Larry H Miller Family of Companies


The Save the Salt Coalition is an international group of businesses and organizations with a vested interest in the BSF.  The Utah Alliance provides expertise and connections at the state and local level.  Major LSR sanctioning organizations are members of both groups.  The two groups have partnered on the shared mission of restoring the BSF as the premier venue for setting world land speed records.  The collaboration allows experts within the groups to undertake specific roles and projects.  \\
 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jdincau on September 16, 2015, 04:27:09 PM
Who/what is the "Utah Alliance"?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: donpearsall on September 16, 2015, 07:49:11 PM
Good question. In that press release there is the Save the Salt Coalition, The Utah Alliance, the Utah Coalition. I am losing track of all the organizations. Maybe this thread can define each organization and how they are different.
Don
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 16, 2015, 08:47:29 PM
It is my understanding that the Alliance is a stripped down, streamlined version of previous efforts.
A true built-on-Bonneville innovation.

Best of luck to them,
Sam
#6062

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 16, 2015, 08:53:23 PM
The Utah Alliance is the NEW NAME for what was formerly known as the Utah Coalition. Because the two names were so close (STS Coalition /Utah Coalition) the name change was made to REDUCE confusion about the two groups.
Consider the Utah Alliance a group made up of land speed racers who have solid connection with Utah. It much smaller group than the Coalition that can react quicker and more forcefully than a broad-based national organization that must consider a wider membership.

Example: The Utah Alliance conceived and developed the two educational public outreach events held in Salt Lake City on the 9th and the Bonneville Salt Flats Tour on the 14th followed by the face-to-face sit-down discussion with influential parties. The STS Coaltion assisted, and even supported us by attending with 3 representatives from the Washington DC SEMA office, but the Utah Alliance together with a number of local Utah racers and their family members did the vast majority of the work.

The Utah Alliance intends to communicate with weekly posts on its own website: www.save-the-salt.org.  PLEASE note it is new and will be "morphing" as we figure out what we need to add and improve upon. We welcome your considered opinions, thoughts, documents and photos that will directly assist us in our march to restoring the Bonneville Salt Flats to safe, high-speed racing condition.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 16, 2015, 09:12:19 PM
Don, All:

Thank you for catching the error. I hope you are now in full understanding.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 17, 2015, 01:43:15 AM
RECAP OF SEPTEMBER 14th BSF TOUR | 9AM

"The Racer's Perspective"

RICK VESCO & RUSS EYRES - Tour Guides

Review Access Road: culvert, wind/water erosion, brackish water wells pump area for the 1997 Salt Laydown Project which required 4,203 acre feet of water. Potash Processing - 25 miles of surface obstructions and 21 miles of collection ditches north of I-80.

STOPS:

1. Old pole line maintenance road damage, repair questions & solutions for Brent Bingham and Brenda Bowen.
2. 1997 Salt Laydown brine water outlet & manifold system. Review new access area and Old Salduro modifications (private land - Intrepid). Point out 1914 race track area & Salt Laydown pumping station.
3. Review Salduro tailings/erosion on the 7 mile long area. Compare race track side to inside at point of original collection ditch. Show early 1930’s - 1970’s race track access bridge.
4. Look at surface elevations, track side compared to inside the Salduro Loop. Explain results of test drilling on each side.
5. Hardest salt area  - somewhat crystallized and becoming much harder to locate.
6.20 culverts, 24” diameter @ I-80. How to change inlet and north of I-80. Talk about ground water seepage - 24 hours non stop in the deep ditch south of I-80.
7. 1963 Installed collection system approximately 14 miles long. Decades of racetrack side surface water ran into this ditch. 1997 ditch cleanout mud was placed on track side to stop this flow. Today we have mud migration issues on the raceway side.
8. Russ Eyres, Bonneville Nationals/Save the Salt, summary of 12 years of track location & salt crust measurements.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 17, 2015, 10:11:29 AM
Let's look at this from Intrepid's side of the road.
How much profit is expected from just the BSF lease before it plays out?
Intrepid will write off the reclamation expenses on their taxes, is my guess.
How about some simple math;
Reclamation fund minus future profit equals amount to actually spend on reclamation.
And Intrepid gets to write off full amount of the fund plus the forfeited future profits.

Intrepid suddenly becomes a hero for forgoing profit to save the Bonneville Salt Flats!


Sam
#6062
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Sumner on September 17, 2015, 01:23:26 PM
...Intrepid suddenly becomes a hero for forgoing profit to save the Bonneville Salt Flats!...

Probably a hard sell to stock holders and company executives :cry: :cry:

Sumner
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Sumner on September 17, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
.....on its own website: www.save-the-salt.org. ....

Wondering why the choice of the domain name ....

http://www.save-the-salt.org/

... since it is almost identical to Save the Salt's domain name....

http://www.savethesalt.org/

.... To me it causes confusion as to which I'm visiting or seeing.  Was this a joint decision between the two groups?

Sumner
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on September 17, 2015, 02:29:24 PM
  Now I am really confused.  I see that Russ Eyers Is listed as  Save the Salt Treasurer, SCTA-BNI Liaison.
  Does this mean that The Utah Alliance is a part of Save The Salt or is this a whole different effort?
  Whatever, I whole heartedly applaud both groups and stand ready to offer any help I can to support ALL efforts to regain our beloved Salt Flats.
                                                                                     Bob Drury
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: USFRAMONTE on September 17, 2015, 04:28:54 PM
One reason for forming the Utah Alliance is that local people could be recruited to help without having to get them voted in or elected to the Save The Salt board.  Luckly there are a number of folks here that are retired or have the time to devote to attending the meetings and making the necessary phone calls, emails and txt messages.  Unfortunately I do not have the free time to do this type of thing.  There are a number of local people who care enough and have the energy and devotion to throw themselves into this. My sincere appreciation to everyone that is putting their hearts and minds to this effort. The more people, groups, organizations etc that can put their voices and thoughts behind us the better our chance for success. Long live the Bonneville Salt Flats!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: half-fast racer on September 17, 2015, 05:07:35 PM
Something I've been thinking about and I'm just going to toss it out. We are in a very time-limited bubble of press and public visibility here. The more we can keep this in the public eye, the better.

What if, say on Saturday Oct. 3 (right after lots of people were planning on being there for the World Finals) we ALL showed up on the Salt for a peaceful, positive show of solidarity and support. With all of the racers, crew, and interested parties, could we put 1,000 people there? 2,000? More? Would it get some attention, especially if the media was alerted? Would it show we're not a bunch of crazy speed demons?

Maybe a little "We are the World" but what the heck - I'd go, just to be counted. Logistics shouldn't be too tough - rent sopme porta-potties, maybe engage the red roof inn - done! My nephew will come too, so we're up to 2. One more and we've got a movement - any takers?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: half-fast racer on September 17, 2015, 05:11:30 PM
By the way, Louise, I really do mean this to be a positive, constructive idea. I firmly believe that press and media are among our strongest tools at this point, and since we have their ear and attention, put the pedal down!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: 1leg on September 17, 2015, 05:35:09 PM
Million Racer March -  I like
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stan Back on September 17, 2015, 06:12:52 PM
I'm in the I-don't-give-a-schit-about the racers camp.

There is some danger involved, but I think it should be they're destroying a national treasure.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: joea on September 17, 2015, 06:13:51 PM
""what if we showed up on the salt....1,000 people there? 2,000? More?...peaceful, positive show of solidarity and support ""

half-fast.... the LSR racers and fans been doing this
1-3 or more times a year for decades... ....the SCTA/USFRA
meets include open statements about the dire salt situation, STS/BLM reps
etc speaking over public loud speaker system at the drivers meetings with world wide media present....and financial support fostered at each event...for STS...

and yet we have the situation we have today....

not saying folks shouldnt venture out there, more power to ya...!!

this critical mass situation and ALLIANCE movement is exciting   !!

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: half-fast racer on September 17, 2015, 07:47:59 PM
Agree that people have been doing this for years - me too (but not as many years). However the difference I am proposing is to show up, in mass, not to race, not to watch, but just to make a statement - that we're willing to drive hundreds of miles, just to show we care, that it's important to us and others, that we're tired of being ignored, and as US citizens we are expressing our concern in a legal, peaceful manner. I would even go so far as to recommend bringing no race cars, as they shift focus and dilute the true purpose. This may sound trivial, but I absolutely believe it would get coverage, maybe even national if you could get Jay Leno to show up.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stainless1 on September 17, 2015, 11:28:55 PM
The website shows we are pro-mining...  I must agree they can have all the potash they can get....  But they are taking way more than that.  Our problem is probably in "Metal Recovery Salt (MRS), which is a combination of potash and salt, the ore from the harvest ponds is sent directly to the dryer to be dried and screened. The final products are conveyed and stored in bulk storage warehouses. From the warehouses, potash and MRS are loaded directly into railcars or trucks for shipment." (the quote is from Intrepid's SEC info)
That seems to be the racing surface... heading out in railcars... piled up on the south side of the I-80.  So hopefully one of the first agenda items is what are they allowed to harvest with their mining lease.  If the answer is salt... oh, make that Metal Recovery Salt, then it may not matter how much depleted brine they pump back... they are just using that to wash more racing surface into their ditches so there is more MRS to sell. 

So there is an item we need answered... What are they allowed to mine from the Salt Flats.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: kiwi belly tank on September 18, 2015, 10:53:06 AM
Take the time to read this.
  Sid.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/planning/documents.Par.17457.File.dat/Intrepid%20EA.pdf
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 18, 2015, 01:23:29 PM
The way I read it, we're screwed. All they have to do for reclamation is fill and level the ditches, plug the wells and remove the pumps. There is no reclamation plan in place.

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: ronnieroadster on September 18, 2015, 03:49:19 PM
Take the time to read this.
  Sid.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/planning/documents.Par.17457.File.dat/Intrepid%20EA.pdf


  WOW one hell of an eye opener were double screwed  :evil:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: desotoman on September 18, 2015, 05:45:29 PM
Take the time to read this.
  Sid.

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/planning/documents.Par.17457.File.dat/Intrepid%20EA.pdf


I tried to go to your link but all I come up with is this:

Service Unavailable

The requested service is temporarily unavailable. It is either overloaded or under maintenance. Please try later.

Tom G.

PS. I was finally able to get through, Thanks.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on September 18, 2015, 05:54:25 PM
The way I read it, we're screwed. All they have to do for reclamation is fill and level the ditches, plug the wells and remove the pumps. There is no reclamation plan in place.

Ron

The people who negotiated that contract must be the same ones who negotiated the deal with Iran.  :x

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: tauruck on September 18, 2015, 05:57:49 PM
This whole thing reminds me of the lyrics to "Hotel California".
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: kiwi belly tank on September 18, 2015, 07:36:07 PM
My whole thing here has been to learn more for myself & share it with others & while working to make a living & still working on the liner, I don't have much time to devote to this but here's what I came up with a while back.
In 2014 the BLM received 5.2 Billion Dollars from "Public Land" in invoices (what ever that means) from 245 million acres of surface land & 700 million acres of sub surface material. Now that's a cuppla bucks people!
 
It is unclear to me in that last document if the Intrepid Bonneville lease is for 24,699.83 acres (page 1) or 87,000 acres (page 35). Somewhere in my overcrowded brain I seem to recall $200/acre/year payment to The BLM for the Bonneville lease plus a slice of the cash product. OK! take the lesser number of acres & you have $4.9 Million not counting the slice. I know of a good place they could use some of that!!
  Sid.
 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 18, 2015, 09:26:54 PM
Now that everybody is up to speed on Intrepid's contractual obligations,
let's consider the worst case scenario for moving Salt north;
we have to do it ourselves.

My bare bones operation;
A scarifier (the machine used to grind up old highway surface)
A front-end loader
A dump truck
and a bulldozer.
a person to operate all the machines
Fuel, food, lodging.

Upgrade to individual operators for each machine.
Upgrade to more dump trucks and drivers.
Upgrade to a conveyor system under I-80.

Yes, I have considerable experience with bulk dry material handling.
And I can operate heavy equipment.

Sid, do ya think $5M will last, say, 3 years?

Sam
#6062
Raving maniac


Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 18, 2015, 09:33:51 PM
Sid's figure was per year.

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 18, 2015, 10:11:41 PM
Exactly.
One year of royalties spent over 3 years.


Sam
#6062
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: kiwi belly tank on September 19, 2015, 01:04:25 AM
I'm in the repair side of heavy equipment so I'm not lost on it. You could move a lot of product for 5 Mil if you weren't lining your pockets but without other changes you would only be thickening the slurry going back down the drain.
  Sid.
 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 19, 2015, 01:25:37 AM
Gentlemen, I have read the comments, but wonder where what we are to glean from any of them to move the conversation forward about reclamation? There are numerous, mulit-page documents that are associated with the mining leases, mining plan, EIS and EA"s. This single EA  link is a not the full picture. Members of the Utah Alliance have been obtaining, reading, discussing and formulating a position statement that is intended to provide short- and long-term corrective actions based on hard science, engineering and racing observation and experiences. 

I respectfully ask you avail yourselves of the many documents and images posted on www.save-the-salt.org before posting kneejerk commentary that helps nothing. None of you are "up to speed." the Alliance members are working many hours DAILY trying to achieve a level of good, solid knowledge so that we might effect serious, positive change.

We have one good shot at this with all the stakeholders and we need all of you to unify, to move towards a solidarity for the salt if for nothing else.

We MUST attack the the problem, NOT each other.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: tauruck on September 19, 2015, 04:18:53 AM
Where did the word Band Wagon originate?.
I'm from Africa but I have a keen sense of smell. :evil:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stainless1 on September 19, 2015, 10:05:53 AM
Maybe I read all this wrong.... I guess I missed the knee-jerks and the attacks on each other so far in the thread.  Unless you consider Intrepid part of "us".... I would say they are a major stakeholder... but their goals and ours are quite different.  I find it hard to imagine that anyone would think that removing and selling millions of tons of salt from the salt flats every year is not affecting the surface. 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 19, 2015, 10:08:26 AM
In a thread a few months back, there was mention of the Mesa Exploration Bounty Potash Project.  The map in the video indicates it would be north and west of where we race.
 
If this goes through, and provided legal, geodynamic and environmental hurdles could be overcome, I would investigate compelling Mesa to locate and maintain a pumping operation that would return their waste salt to the area of the Speedway.



  
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: 7800ebs on September 19, 2015, 10:14:53 AM
Please Guys......   patience


thanks Louise.... for ALL your Work

AND all the work of the others in the Utah Alliance

if there is anything I can do call me

Bob Dalton   408 206 7050
Flashpoint Liner


Let us push together, FORWARD....   and not push each other, apart..


Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 19, 2015, 10:28:14 AM
The best "researchers, engineers, hydrologists and scientists" money can buy are trying to convince us that 15 FEET of salt disappeared into thin air. I may be stupid (I race)but I stayed in a Holiday Inn last night and by physic's laws that isn't possible.
According to one report the salt is soaking down into the lower layers. AMAZING, It lays there for 15000 years then decides to sink in just the last 80 years. Give me a break.
The Utah Alliance says they need scientific data. I must be a really good scientist because I can stand on the railroad tracks and face North and say "yup it's gone", then turn 180 degrees and say "whoops, there it is, problem solved"

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on September 19, 2015, 10:57:53 AM
I would like to encourage those of you that want to learn more about the circumstances regarding the BSF condition to go to the Alliances website, www.save-the-salt.org. Click on the documents page and start reading the referenced docs. We will be posting more as time goes on so you might want to check back occasionally.

I also suggest you take a look at the ‘take action” page. There you will find a draft letter/email/phone call talking points document to be used in expressing concern for the BSF to your elected representatives. We have been in regular contact with the Governors offices of Utah and Nevada, Senators, Representatives and a number of Utah state officials. It is part of our strategy to get the support of these elected leaders.  You can help by taking action.

The website is still in development and will continue to evolve over the next few months. We expect to post regular up dates, add documents, post pictures and videos and suggest future action where the racers and other stakeholders can help.

The intent website to be a resource for anyone wanting more information on the BSF without having to go to multiple sites and libraries. Also on the website is identification of the Alliance leadership and partners. It ain’t perfect, but it’s our best shot it improving the knowledge base and transparency.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 19, 2015, 01:26:07 PM
Please provide documentation that reports 15 feet of measured salt crust. This is a fictional number.

We are fully aware of the salt transfer to the south side of Interstate 80. Unfortunately, a great deal of "processed" salt has hardened into a jack-hammer hard concrete state in the ponds. This is NOT easy to put back into solution and pump back across the freeway.

I share this as only ONE of many points the Utah Alliance is exploring with Intrepid. And YES, they are now helping. We need their expertise in solar evaporation processes to find workable solutions to restore the salt racing crust.

This is not a one-shot fix program. It took decades to decimate and we are attempting to accelerate restorative measures. Be clear about that.   
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jl222 on September 19, 2015, 01:41:01 PM
Gentlemen, I have read the comments, but wonder where what we are to glean from any of them to move the conversation forward about reclamation? There are numerous, mulit-page documents that are associated with the mining leases, mining plan, EIS and EA"s. This single EA  link is a not the full picture. Members of the Utah Alliance have been obtaining, reading, discussing and formulating a position statement that is intended to provide short- and long-term corrective actions based on hard science, engineering and racing observation and experiences.  

I respectfully ask you avail yourselves of the many documents and images posted on www.save-the-salt.org before posting kneejerk commentary that helps nothing. None of you are "up to speed." the Alliance members are working many hours DAILY trying to achieve a level of good, solid knowledge so that we might effect serious, positive change.

We have one good shot at this with all the stakeholders and we need all of you to unify, to move towards a solidarity for the salt if for nothing else.

We MUST attack the the problem, NOT each other.

  The only attacks I see is you on us.

  Velocity...How up to speed are you? How much does a cubic yard of salt weigh and what is the area in sq ft at 2 in thick will
it cover?

  DON'T try to turn the attacks around after your comment's about our post being on'' mind altering drugs'', then you insult us
saying we have kneejerk commentary and none of us are up  to speed, AND then you ask for unity?

 Exactly what post are you talking about?

                JL222

   The pot calling the kettle black

 PS time is 12:37 pm sat 9/19/15 and Velocity was online.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 19, 2015, 02:16:32 PM
Louise
I went to the high end of the statement on the web site of 12 to 15 feet thick. After all the scientists are going to the low end by saying there is "NO" change 
The 12 to 15 feet is stated as such in 1914 on the chronological time line prepared by STS, on "The Utah Alliance to save the salt" web page. Ask them for documentation.

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jdincau on September 19, 2015, 02:44:15 PM
http://www.landspeedproductions.biz/timeline-for-bonneville-salt-flats-racing-mining-science-legislation.html

scroll down to 1914
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: ronnieroadster on September 19, 2015, 02:57:31 PM
http://www.landspeedproductions.biz/timeline-for-bonneville-salt-flats-racing-mining-science-legislation.html

scroll down to 1914

 Wow there it is I found it maybe in 1914 their measuring device was not scientific enough just saying.  :-o
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 19, 2015, 03:15:36 PM
Louise,
  My statement of Intrepid's contractual obligations was solely in reference to the EA's Reclamation Plan.
I regret that I did not fully document the statement. I am reading thru the wealth of documentation on the Alliance website.
  Your assert that none of us is "up to speed." This implies that you have further information. I will understand if you have entered into a non-disclosure agreement and cannot share the additional information. If not, could you elaborate on additional Reclamation requirements made of Intrepid?

  As to "knee-jerk reaction"; did you read the rest of my post regarding moving the Salt back? You may note that it does not involve use of the shallow brine aquifer or pumping. I contend the aquifer's best use is to provide the water needed to reform the crust by evaporation. Intrepid's example of jack-hammer hard concrete state was formed by evaporation. I think this is the method and result we should aspire to.

In closing, I wish to express my gratitude for your efforts.
Thank you.
Respectfully,
Sam
#6062
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 19, 2015, 04:54:26 PM
Boys, with and without thin skin, the quote comes from railroad newspaper report not backed with any science. Understand that Jinx Vesco, Stuart Gosswein and I researched and wrote the very document you use to now berate us with.

To wit:

Chicago: “The Railway Age Gazette” pronounces “this natural racing-track is a level bed of salt, 98 % pure…
The salt-beds are 65 miles long and 8 miles wide. The estimated depth, in the middle, is 12 - 15 feet.”
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 19, 2015, 05:28:29 PM
Sam

Fundamentally, none of us are "up to speed" but each of us (mainly Roger Lessman, Jinx and Rick Vesco, Tom Burkland, Russ Eyres and myself)  have acquired an enormous knowledge base in various segments. We are STILL researching and acquiring details, facts, science and details and then sharing them with among our group to educate each other to develop a stronger "racer face" that decision makers will respect and rally behind. None of us are the least bit interested in personal attacks.

EACH new fact comes ONLY after hours of reading and comparing and conversation and fact-checking. Not to the level of Sigma 5 confidence, but enough to stand up to serious public scrutiny from  the legislative and judicial branches of our government.

If you have something that will help, send it to us. Share images and documentation - that is where our negotiating strength is built upon.

As to the aquifers, know this: yesterday, with the help of the Utah Department of Natural Resources, I spent 7 hours researching all of Intrepid's Wendover water rights, maps, wells, flow rates, width's, depths locations, activity, blah, blah blah. I have facts, but need to plug said facts into context before I say anything. By the way, ANYONE can go do this, it is all online.   

This much I AM SURE OF, there will be no more records, no red, blue, or black hats if we fail.





Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stainless1 on September 19, 2015, 10:39:47 PM
LSL
Boys, with and without thin skin, the quote comes from railroad newspaper report not backed with any science. Understand that Jinx Vesco, Stuart Gosswein and I researched and wrote the very document you use to now berate us with.

To wit:

Chicago: “The Railway Age Gazette” pronounces “this natural racing-track is a level bed of salt, 98 % pure…
The salt-beds are 65 miles long and 8 miles wide. The estimated depth, in the middle, is 12 - 15 feet.”

be·rate
bəˈrāt/
verb
scold or criticize (someone) angrily.
"his mother came out and berated me for raising my voice"
synonyms:   scold, rebuke, reprimand, reproach, reprove, admonish, chide, criticize, upbraid, take to task, read someone the riot act, haul over the coals;

You asked where he got that info, he said from the website  www.save-the-salt.org  :-o  We read the documents, talk about what we see there, and you jump ugly when we comment.
Maybe you should be the one that should not knee jerk and use inflammatory words when all the rest of us are just trying to figure out where all this is going.  
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 19, 2015, 10:46:43 PM
Stainless, et al.

If any of you would like to take over, if you think you can do a better job than I , then PLEASE come get my files and I shall retire without complaint.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on September 20, 2015, 10:55:11 AM
Stainless, i am disappointed that you some others on this blog that want to attack members of the Utah Alliance personally. We have wanted to try and let the racers know a little more about our efforts to get the BLM to implement a reclamation program immediately. Some level of transparency has been lacking in past efforts as we all know. We decided to use landracing, Facebook along with our website to accomplish that purpose. however if the personal attacks continue we will drop landracing. The Alliance is under no obligation to talk to or share anything with anyone, we are doing it simply because we thought it was the right thing to do and the racers my like to know what's up. Think about....

By the way, have you made an effort to contact your congressmen as suggested on www.save-the-salt.org?

if you want to discuss this further, give me a call or send me an email. I am easy to find.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jl222 on September 20, 2015, 11:55:35 AM
Stainless, i am disappointed that you some others on this blog that want to attack members of the Utah Alliance personally. We have wanted to try and let the racers know a little more about our efforts to get the BLM to implement a reclamation program immediately. Some level of transparency has been lacking in past efforts as we all know. We decided to use landracing, Facebook along with our website to accomplish that purpose. however if the personal attacks continue we will drop landracing. The Alliance is under no obligation to talk to or share anything with anyone, we are doing it simply because we thought it was the right thing to do and the racers my like to know what's up. Think about....

By the way, have you made an effort to contact your congressmen as suggested on www.save-the-salt.org?

if you want to discuss this further, give me a call or send me an email. I am easy to find.

  Rodger... Any response from us after Louise called our post as being on MIND ALTERING DRUGS is an attack on her but
not on us?

  I have always thought after Louise's post that she must have had the backing of some of the members of the Alliance or
she wouldn't have posted something as derogatory as that.

  You and others have confirmed that, AND. don't you think she owes the forum and apology?

              JL222
 

 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RichFox on September 20, 2015, 12:31:33 PM
Some may find LAN not to their taste. Maybe several. But I think everyone needs to keep in mind the goal here. You don't have to like someone to have the same interests. It appears that someone will have to work with politicians some where down the line. You may find politicians and those who act like them distasteful.  But the goal is what we are after. Not taste. Infighting at this early state bodes ill for the effort. Allowing for differences in attitude will be necessary. Take what help you can get and be grateful for it.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on September 20, 2015, 01:27:49 PM
This is a forum - this particular topic more so than most.

I'm looking over who has posted here, and I'm not seeing any idiots, dolts or psychedelic drug abusers.

I am seeing gut level concerns, fundamental values and beliefs percolating as to how to approach the issue of attempts to preserve the salt flats.

This is a fundamental function of a forum - to question approaches, discuss potential outcomes, and in the end, to come up with a road map.

I've often said that this is a group that tends to like to "knit their own sweaters".  By that, know that it is intended as high praise for the individualistic approach we all take to our racing endeavors.

It's reasonable to believe that our approaches to political, environmental and cooperative endeavors are likely to come from different viewpoints as well.  One look at the vehicles sitting in the pits clearly shows we are not of a monolithic mindset.

I'm seeing here more frustration than axe grinding, and while we know we do need to speak with one voice, it stands to reason that this can be a constructive part of developing that voice.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 21, 2015, 10:07:50 AM
As to the aquifers, know this: yesterday, with the help of the Utah Department of Natural Resources, I spent 7 hours researching all of Intrepid's Wendover water rights, maps, wells, flow rates, width's, depths locations, activity, blah, blah blah. I have facts, but need to plug said facts into context before I say anything.
 
I'm not sure how all this relates to the problem at hand = no salt. What about the fact the salt used to be feet thick? What about old mining or salt harvesting company's boring or core samples that showed the depth of the "CRUST". The "SALT" crust is what we're interested in. The crust is laying in Intrepids ponds, feet thick, by their own statements, and in piles on their property, and they and the BLM are denying they are responsible for the loss.

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stainless1 on September 21, 2015, 11:19:24 AM
I found the previously missed suggested letter in the take action section.
Quote

(date)

Re: Land Speed Racing at Bonneville Salt Flats

Dear Senator (or Congressman/woman) ______________

I am writing to you today to bring to your attention an issue that threatens the century old sport of land speed racing at Bonneville Salt Flats on the Utah/Nevada border in Wendover, Utah.  

The condition of the salt flats has deteriorated to point that all five land speed races scheduled over four months this year and 2014 saw 3 of the 5 cancelled. This is a huge economic hit to the towns of Wendover, UT and West Wendover, NV.

The organizations that host the races work closely with the Bureau of Land Management to obtain permits to use the salt flats and to ensure that the racers and spectators adhere to strict environmental guidelines.

The degradation of this historic area is due in part to mining activity nearby. The mining companies, over decades have extracted potash by pumping brine from under the salt, resulting in a thinning of the salt crust. Weather has certainly played a part as well.

There are a number of cost-effective ‘fixes” that have been identified that will not inhibit the mining company’s operation. While the entire area is administered by the BLM, there is no plan in place to mandate ongoing reclamation or restoration.

I ask that you support our efforts to save the salt and restore the long-held history of land speed racing by mandating that the BLM immediately develop a plan to reclaim this wonderful national treasure, the Bonneville Salt Flats.

For additional information please contact the Utah Alliance to Save the Salt at www.save-the-salt.org.

Thank you.

(your name)
(address)
(city, state, zip)

(ph #)
(email address)

I see the direction... start reclamation and restoration now... not wait until the mining is done removing and selling all the salt.... I guess I failed to glean that from the minutia of the info released in this thread...
It is now the obvious direction the Utah Alliance is headed.  
I have previously sent emails to my reps expressing concern with the mining industry... removing and selling the Salt Flats.  
Hopefully this will be the direction that gets it done.  This is the direction we all should drive our communications to our lawmakers.  
Reclaim and restore now
The other link I found previously was phone numbers so.... Monday.... That's Pat Roberts day...202-224-4774  I'll call him today
Tomorrow is... Jerry Moran day...202-224-6521... and so on... one of them every day... Finally... we have clear direction of what we need to do.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on September 21, 2015, 01:52:09 PM
Hey Stainless, thanks for the support! We collectively can make a difference. Hopefully others will follow your lead.

Roger Lessman
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 21, 2015, 02:29:10 PM
Mr. Gibson and all other frustrated, angry racers

If you wish to be sure about how aquifers "relate to the problem at hand = no salt" then I encourage you to spend time reading the volumes of documentation we have assembled for your review at: www.save-the-salt.org.

There you will learn:

~ that without properly recharged aquifers there can be no salt crust upon which to race.
~ how Intrepid Mining has been helping to restore the salt crust.
~ what is in play right now at federal, state and local levels to restore the Bonneville Salt Flats to safe racing conditions.


The Utah Alliance was formed in direct response to the lack of action and/or communication on the part of Save The Salt and the Save The Salt Coalition. Several of the people involved with both groups are now working diligently with the Utah Alliance  to effect a robust reclamation plan.

We cannot and will not respond to everyone. We, the VOLUNTEER Utah Alliance members, as well as the salt, don't have that luxury of time.

The racing community must do its part and become informed to each person's individual degree of comfort, or you must trust us to work on your behalf that we all want the same thing - a safe raceway.

Know this: the most effective thing you can do RIGHT NOW, THIS WEEK, is to call or write to EACH ONE of your elected officials. We have made this easy by posting detailed instructions at:

http://www.save-the-salt.org/take-action/

If Stainless can do this, so can the rest of you. You will be amazed at the degree of positive impact  such a collective effort by individuals racers can have.

See you on the salt.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: sabat on September 21, 2015, 04:36:11 PM
Mr. Gibson and all other frustrated, angry racers

If you wish to be sure about how aquifers "relate to the problem at hand = no salt" then I encourage you to spend time reading the volumes of documentation we have assembled for your review at: www.save-the-salt.org.

There you will learn:

~ that without properly recharged aquifers there can be no salt crust upon which to race.
~ how Intrepid Mining has been helping to restore the salt crust.
~ what is in play right now at federal, state and local levels to restore the Bonneville Salt Flats to safe racing conditions.


The Utah Alliance was formed in direct response to the lack of action and/or communication on the part of Save The Salt and the Save The Salt Coalition. Several of the people involved with both groups are now working diligently with the Utah Alliance  to effect a robust reclamation plan.

We cannot and will not respond to everyone. We, the VOLUNTEER Utah Alliance members, as well as the salt, don't have that luxury of time.

The racing community must do its part and become informed to each person's individual degree of comfort, or you must trust us to work on your behalf that we all want the same thing - a safe raceway.

Know this: the most effective thing you can do RIGHT NOW, THIS WEEK, is to call or write to EACH ONE of your elected officials. We have made this easy by posting detailed instructions at:

http://www.save-the-salt.org/take-action/

If Stainless can do this, so can the rest of you. You will be amazed at the degree of positive impact  such a collective effort by individuals racers can have.

See you on the salt.



I appreciate the efforts of all involved, and I will follow your link and contact my local reps. The snide backhands are unprofessional, and serve no useful purpose, other than a little bolt of glee for you I assume. They detract from your efforts. -Dean
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Avanti Kid on September 21, 2015, 05:03:56 PM
Hi Louise and others trying to save our salt flats, to be successful we need to stay united and teamwork is important.  And to those folks on the committee we do appreciate your hard work and hours you put in to get us to our goal at Bonneville, we thank you for your hard work, Dave
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stan Back on September 21, 2015, 06:20:22 PM
That's Land Mass Louise for you.

Passionate.  (Always right, right?)

There's those who have worked with her -- and then there's those who don't know her.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 21, 2015, 07:33:36 PM
Yessir, and ma'am,
  There is some right interesting reading in that database.  Louise, thank you again.

From the Intrepid EA;

4.0 ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS 
UTU-087809-087818 
UT-020-2006-002 
20

4.3.2.2 Alternative B Proposed Action with Mitigation 
Primary Pond Relocation:  The impacts would be the same as the Proposed Action.     
New Ditch Location on South Leases:   The impacts would be the same as the Proposed Action
Fringe Acreage Lease:  The impacts would be the same as the Proposed Action
Salt Laydown:  The effect of the salt laydown project on the resource would be the same as under the proposed action. 
                     The only difference is that Intrepid would be obligated to conduct the salt laydown project.
Reclamation:   The ditches in the ACEC would be filled in and the ditch berms would be removed. 
                    This would bring the surface of the land back to its original contour.   



The above was approved by the BLM in the document:
Mining Plan Environmental Notice,
http://www.save-the-salt.org/s/Intrepid-Potash-Mine-and-Reclamation-Plan.pdf

(I'd cut and paste here but I'm incompetent, so I will quote the notice for emphasis)

Mostly it deals with the Salt Laydown.
3 year rolling average ion mass balance and report to th BLM within 60 days after completion for the year.
(I'd like to see the numbers myself.)

And the 2018 salt study.
Measure what is left and "...revise terms and conditions when the lease is readjusted in 2023."
(2023? YIKES!)

and the closing paragraph on the top of page 5.

 "... This approval is contingent upon strict compliance with the specifics of Alternate B as outlined in the EA..."
(top of this page)


Has the Reclamation section of the approved Alternative B Proposed Action with Mitigation been implemented without my noticing?

Sam
#6062
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: desotoman on September 21, 2015, 09:46:05 PM
Hey Stainless, thanks for the support! We collectively can make a difference. Hopefully others will follow your lead.

Roger Lessman

I contacted my representatives and made them aware of the problem, and also
www.save-the-salt.org.

Tom G.

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on September 21, 2015, 10:45:29 PM
regards to alt b, read the last few pages of the ea document. the decision of record is there as well. the public review period and decision were "noticed".
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on September 21, 2015, 10:46:39 PM
those of you htat have made an effort to contact your elected congressmen, thank you.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 22, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
Roger,
  I notice 4.3.2.1 wording was changed from:
Reclamation:    There would be positive impacts because the ACEC area would be reclaimed.

in the approval to:
Reclamation: Reclamation would not affect the ACEC since there are no mining features within the ACEC.

4.3.2.2 was:
Reclamation:    The ditches in the ACEC would be filled in and the ditch berms would be removed.  This would bring the surface of the land back to its original contour.

now reads:
Reclamation: Reclamation would not affect the ACEC since there are no mining features within the ACEC.

and 4.3.2.3 was:
 Reclamation:    There would be no reclamation plan approved and a reclamation bond could not be imposed because there is no plan to make the appropriate calculation.  This would not be in accordance with the regulations and there would have to be a new reclamation plan submitted for approval.  The ditches on the ACEC may not be reclaimed because there would be no approved reclamation plan.

again changed to:
Reclamation: Reclamation would not affect the ACEC since there are no mining features within the ACEC.

Please share your interpretation,
Sam
#6062
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on September 22, 2015, 10:05:22 AM
sam, i don't have a clue as to why the wording was changed, maybe a result of some comments made during the review process. can't say if there are issues there or not. if there are, they will come out as we move down the road on a reclamation plan. glad you are taking time to read the docs.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 22, 2015, 10:46:39 AM
Comment 23 reads:

Commenter: Save the Salt Coalition 4.3.2

Comment: The Coalition states that ACEC reclamation would be "spurious".
Response: The BLM corrected the appropriate sections of the EA to reflect correct reclamation plans.

Integration Status  (EA addition/ correction): Section 4.3.2 updated.

Looks like StS is responsible for the change....

Sam
#6062
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on September 22, 2015, 12:17:34 PM
sam, could be. the entire sts letter is on the website. it has been in the public domain for a number to years.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on September 22, 2015, 03:55:43 PM
From the 2012 StS commentary on the Intrepid EA section 4.3.2;
"...The program proposed under Alternative B will likely only stabilize the area. The EA’s
assertion that “the ACEC area would be reclaimed” [p. 25] is spurious unless the BLM allows
and pursues supplemental replenishment activities."

Alt B already changed the Salt Laydown from voluntary to required.
It included the ion mass balance of 1.0 or greater.
It contained requirements for reclamation (fill the ditches and restore natural contour).

In short, Reclamation could have begun in 2012, IF NOT FOR the StS commentary.

I applaud the StS for adopting a new stance on reclamation.

Sam
#6062
 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: BasementBorn on September 22, 2015, 04:58:19 PM
Sam,

Filling the 4 miles of ditches nearest to the track mentioned in the environmental assessment would not be as beneficial as you may think. There are approximately 12 additional miles of ditches just outside of the ACEC that Intrepid is using for collection (approx. measured using google maps). Also, the mass balance is at best replacing what is coming off the north side of the highway. 1 coming off then 1 going back on does not result in any additional salt on the BSF. None of this is really reclamation. At best it is just maintaining and limping it along. STS's comments look more to strike the wording of the report that make it seem like there would actually be reclamation happening. It's actually a good catch on their part. Their stance remains the same and that action actually should help now because the BLM, etc. can't look back at the EA and say "see, it should be working just give it time". The only reclamation mentioned in the EA is filling the ditches which just fills ditches they no longer use. They should do that anyway but it will not result in additional salt being on the track, just filled ditches.

Also, in a previous post you brought up the 2023 date for redoing their contract. That is their normal cycle. I think the goal right now is to provide enough outcry and evidence to force the contract back open so it can be revised with some actual reclamation to hopefully rebuild the salt that has been lost. That is why it is such a big political and procedural problem that STS is and the Utah Coalition, etc. is trying to work through right now. There can be all the ideas in the world to try and save it  but until something is worked in to the contract everything is going to be on a voluntary basis on the part of Intrepid, they are operating within the limits of their contract and have no obligations to do anything beyond what is in the contract. Hence, the reason to contact representatives.

Gabe

Edit: also, has anyone noticed that their mass balance equation doesn't make sense?

(Y1SL+Y2SL+Y3SL)/(Y1SB+Y2SB+Y3SB)= 0 or 1.0 or greater

Why the 0? it doesn't make any sense and leaves a huge loophole that if they wanted to save money they could just say "oh look,  (0ton laydown)/(50ton collection)= 0, I don't have to pump anything back out...profit!".

Another thing, the 2018 study. The requirement just says they have to repeat the 2003 salt crust thickness and if it shows a decrease then the BLM may revise the contract. HUGE RED FLAG for me! It's only relative to the 2003 study, no other studies from the past. As you can see from Russ's measurements  over the last 10 years the thickness doesn't just get thinner everywhere, it's dynamic and moves with the water/wind flows, weather, etc. With that in mind, almost any variation between the 2003 and 2018 studies could be well within the margin of error especially with the current laydown project being conducted. Which, leaves another easy out of changing the contract.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 23, 2015, 11:43:33 AM
My windows 10 won't open the document on "save the salt" site. Says Word is opening in protected view, but nothing happens. Anyone help?

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on September 23, 2015, 12:36:16 PM
I went back to Windows 7.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: desotoman on September 23, 2015, 04:11:20 PM
My windows 10 won't open the document on "save the salt" site. Says Word is opening in protected view, but nothing happens. Anyone help?

Ron

Ron,

My windows 10 said What should Firefox do with this file? Open with * "Windows Wordpad Application" which was the default setting on my windows 10 / Firefox setup. The more I use Windows 10 the more I like it. But if you cannot get it to download, here is what the letter says, feel free to copy and paste it to your Word or Word-perfect program.

Tom G.

(date)

Re: Land Speed Racing at Bonneville Salt Flats

Dear Senator (or Congressman/woman) ______________

I am writing to you today to bring to your attention an issue that threatens the century old sport of land speed racing at Bonneville Salt Flats on the Utah/Nevada border in Wendover, Utah. 

The condition of the salt flats has deteriorated to point that all five land speed races scheduled over four months this year and 2014 saw 3 of the 5 cancelled. This is a huge economic hit to the towns of Wendover, UT and West Wendover, NV.

The organizations that host the races work closely with the Bureau of Land Management to obtain permits to use the salt flats and to ensure that the racers and spectators adhere to strict environmental guidelines.

The degradation of this historic area is due in part to mining activity nearby. The mining companies, over decades have extracted potash by pumping brine from under the salt, resulting in a thinning of the salt crust. Weather has certainly played a part as well.

There are a number of cost-effective ‘fixes” that have been identified that will not inhibit the mining company’s operation. While the entire area is administered by the BLM, there is no plan in place to mandate ongoing reclamation or restoration.

I ask that you support our efforts to save the salt and restore the long-held history of land speed racing by mandating that the BLM immediately develop a plan to reclaim this wonderful national treasure, the Bonneville Salt Flats.

For additional information please contact the Utah Alliance to Save the Salt at www.save-the-salt.org.

Thank you.

(your name)
(address)
(city, state, zip)

(ph #)
(email address)
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on September 23, 2015, 07:00:29 PM
Thanks Tom. I'll try that. It downloaded it then couldn't/wouldn't open it.

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on September 23, 2015, 08:47:38 PM
  Thanx Tom.  Us old fartz ain't as smart as we once wuz........................    Bob :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: burbanite on September 24, 2015, 08:52:57 PM


GREG MILLER - Director, Larry H Miller Family of Companies.

This guy. Huge local business presence, family very well known, just sold Miller Motorsports Park, heavily invested in the local economy and the culture.

Good find, keep him busy.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on September 30, 2015, 06:42:23 PM
NHRA pro Funny Car Driver joins with the Utah Alliance

http://www.save-the-salt.org/news/

This is the first of many letters of support I am gathering from my colleagues at NHRA - they remember where the sport emanated from.

 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Elmo Rodge on September 30, 2015, 07:57:54 PM
Cool. I hope her colleagues come on board.  :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Peter Jack on September 30, 2015, 10:35:04 PM
*
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 01, 2015, 01:39:37 AM
After much thought, and using the Alliance form letter only as an outline, I contacted my representative and senators.

My concern in constructing the letters was making it relevant to their political outlooks and agendas.

To my Congresswoman, Gwen Moore, a champion of Great Lakes water conservation, I emphasized the environmental issues.

To Senator Johnson, I focused on BLM management issues, and emphasized that it is not the Alliance's intent to stop mining operations, but to simply insure the continued recreational use of the Speedway.

To Senator Baldwin, I pointed to the history of the Blue Flame - made in Milwaukee - and that it was the last American Absolute Land Speed Record holder to have raced on the flats.

To both Senators, I pointed to the consistent number of entries Wisconsin sends to Bonneville during all of the events, and that this is not just a "Western States" issue.

So now, the most hated institution in America is aware of my concerns.

I remain concerned about the regional nature of the arguments being proffered on all sides, and trying to translate our concerns to a national audience is no easy task.  I was able to personalize my communications to my DC contingent in ways I hope will be effective - and the name "Milwaukee Midget Racing" probably worked to my advantage - but I still live in a state where federally controlled lands are less than 6% of the total.  Utah clocks in at 66%, and I have serious doubts as to whether any of the Wisconsin legislators can wrap their heads around the issues involved with land not in private hands.  

The racing and automotive recreational communities are already in our court - yes, there is still a lot of low hanging fruit there - but that support doesn't have the exponential ability to draw new eyes to this issue.  

If we continue to simply target the racing communities, and seeing the past racing experiences and likely contacts within the Rolodex files of many LSR racers, I think all we'll really discover is that the Venn diagram looks a lot like a dart board.

Somehow, we need to reach beyond ourselves - we're still just preaching to the choir.  
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on October 03, 2015, 04:48:12 AM
WELL DONE Milwaukee Midget!

if we could have about 499 more of you it would surely "save the salt."

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on October 03, 2015, 04:50:35 AM
Folks

Please visit the new, updated Save the Salt Foundation website:

http://www.savethesalt.org/

This is the site sponsored by the STS coalition and thanks go out to the Washington DC staff for stepping up to the task.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: kiwi belly tank on October 03, 2015, 11:32:50 AM
The STS site doesn't tell us anything beyond the fact the meeting on the 24th happened & everybody was positive, did I miss something there?
So Louise, since you are the mouth piece here, what are the next steps for STS & the Alliance?

Are any of the government departments actually doing anything other than going back to their political agendas?

Referring to your open door policy, what were the proposals put forward at the closed meeting after the salt tour on the 24th?

As you know I was there for the tour but not privy to the closed meeting so my knowledge is minimal & most everybody else here know's less than I do.
  Sid.   
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: joea on October 03, 2015, 12:42:19 PM
Ok, trying to keep the dialogue correct to hopefully facilitate progress.


The form letter posted in this thread to streamline communication mentions:
"For additional information please contact the Utah Alliance to Save the Salt at www.save-the-salt.org."

 Then on this thread we are asked to please visit the new savethesalt.org site

On the savethesalt site homepage:

Save the Salt Foundation is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to protect the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah and to promote its history and motorsports legacy. The organization aspires to keep this national treasure available for future generations. In 2011, a number of prominent organizations formed the "Save the Salt Coalition" to help the nonprofit organization achieve its goal. The Coalition is seeking to restore the Bonneville Salt Flats. The Coalition is working with government officials, mine operators and others to supplement the current salt replenishment activities.

Yet on the same site, clicking on "Coalition" tab:
Save the Salt Coalition (STS) was founded in 1989 by racers, businesses and community members

Under "News" on the same site, "Stakeholders meet..."
“Although concerns about deterioration at Bonneville have existed for decades, today marked the first time officials representing government, industry and racers sat at the same table to discuss solutions,” said Doug Evans, chairman of the Save the Salt Coalition. “We are finally at the starting line in the race to save Bonneville.”

Its been frustrating in talking to folks to get the word our effectively, when form letter directs folks to Utah Alliance, though we are directed to the STS site which refers to Coalition
and Foundation, and has different dates of existence but all same goals.....

The donation and support and allowing of entities (STS) to work on progress has been done by the racers etal and after 26 yrs.... according to STS Sept 15, “We are finally at the starting line in the race to save Bonneville.”

hoping to streamline who I forward entities and racer support to
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: SPARKY on October 03, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
http://naturalresources.house.gov/subcommittees/subcommittee/?SubcommitteeID=5066
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on October 04, 2015, 03:36:35 AM
No one is more aware of the confusion that I when talking about the various groups, websites and reporting process.

It is why I got involved. The original STS Foundation website was a complete disaster for many reasons with the only way forward being dumping the internet provider and creating a complete new website with a new service provider. That took time and is now done with more documents and new images posted that ever before. The big change is when you land on the home page you get news right in your face, not hunting for it on other pages. Any breaking news will be posted here first.

I still need to read the website thoroughly and correct deficiencies. It is work in progress, but at least now we CAN make changes easily.

The Utah Alliance (UA) website is almost totally the work of Roger Lessman, who first taught himself HOW to build a website and then just did it. The idea for the UA website was to initially to share the VOLUMES of material and images that a few of us had collected trying to figure out how Bonneville got into the sorry state of affairs that it is in.

We also wanted to post updates on our work and we also recognize that we can state things quicker and with more bite that the STS Foundation. Further, the Coalition that must be mindful of not only its contributing patrons, but also member (AMA, ACCUS, FIA et al) reputations.

Absolutely essential to the implementation of ANY restorative actions is establishing relationships with political allies educating them about the situation as well as developing a science based engineering plan that we (STS and UA) that we will be asking them to endorse.

This all takes an enormous amount of time. And it may not happen according to the timetable you believe it should. NONE of us are doing this full time or are being paid. Some days are fruitful and highly  productive, other days are frustrating wheel-spinners that make me walk away for a couple days.

As to the closed door meeting on the 14th - it was critical to ensure the main players sat down and TALKED to each other WITHOUT angry people in the room. Understand that was the first time that Intrepid, BLM, STS, elected officials and other agency reps gathered together to hear the RACER point of view. Just becasue you showed up did not mean you got a seat at the table we had spent more than a month setting up.

The result? Open lines of communication were established on federal, state and local levels - public and private. Intrepid is actually contributing to solution options that an Salt Lake engineering firm is sorting out for a realistic position statement that will lead the discussion of what action to take in the short and long term. Keep in mind, this is federal land governed by federal law and policy which must be adhered to at all times. One agenda item can take 3 to 4 weeks to sort out.

The Utah Alliance has led a charge that has accomplished more in 3 months than STS and Coalition has done in three years. Both are needed and necesaary. We believe they have been invigorated. The STS Foundation the board of directors were stagnated. This is being corrected. Announcements are coming.

In a nutshell, here is how this is working: the STS Foundation is the original racer formed group that has the 501c3 status. The STS Coalition's main function is to support the STS Foundation with guidance at the federal and state level. SEMA donates staff time to the cause that amounts to about $20,000 to $30,000 in staff time per year and includes a booth at the SEMA Show. Three SEMA staff showed up on the 14th on the salt - thank you SEMA. The Utah Alliance was formed because some racers were frustrated with the lack of action by STS or the STS Coalition. We figured we could do better and we have, but we do not wish to throw anybody under the bus, we simply want the salt restored and are marching onward to that goal. Frankly, if things keep going along as they are now, the Utah Alliance might revert to working on a local, "in the trenches" position in the future.

But we will not slow down now, not until the position statement is verified by the engineer and action plans get approved.

I am DONE talking about the past unless it has a clear reason to add to the future path forward. And to those mean-spirited people who enjoy personal attacks: please also enjoy being ignored.

I have to earn a living. This pro bono work has, since early August, gobbled up more than 300 unbillable hours . . ., and counting.  I have spent a couple thousand dollars out of my savings account to get things done and attend meetings.

And for what? I don't have a car, truck or motorcycle hungry for a record. I have never earned a time slip on the salt, let alone a bright colored hat. I do this becasue I am adamant that a great American motorsport heritage is not squandered for lack of attention and mismanagement. Land speed racing, in my opinion, is where one finds a phenomenal American "can do" spirit that attracts the whole wide world. To lose it would be tragic.  

Jinx and Rick Vesco, Roger Lessman and Dennis Sullivan have all contributed much the same. There are plenty of others with lesser devotions, but without them we'd not so far along.

I'll end with asking: Have you contacted your Congressional leaders with at least a phone call, and follow-up letter voicing your anger about the state of the salt flats?

If not, get your butt in gear, we need every one of you to do this. Every single one.

There will be plenty of news by the SEMA Show. Stand by.



  

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: tauruck on October 04, 2015, 03:52:13 AM
Thanks Louise. :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: lvsalt on October 04, 2015, 10:02:48 AM
Thanks Louise :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on October 04, 2015, 12:34:31 PM
  In my opinion We Racers are all standing on the precipice of a very deep canyon.  We may in fact have seen the last of racing on the Bonneville Salt Flats or at the very least for the near future... meaning that those of us in the Autumn of our lives may never visit the "five mile" sign again.
  I stated in a post about a month ago that unless STS opened up to Us (Racers and Donor's alike) that I feared infighting would split our community apart and destroy any chance at recovery of our racing  again at Bonneville.
  What I have been witness to in the last Month has been a remarkable metamorphosis of STS, the SCTA- BNI,USFRA and SEMA to form the Utah Alliance and hold talks with The BLM, Intrepid Industries, and The State of Utah along with other groups with a interest in the restoration of the Salt Flats.
  I do not believe that We would be seeing this happening so soon without the hundreds of posts on this (and related) topics on this wonderful site which have at the very least spurred immediate action and helped publicize the necessity to aggressively take action to restore the Salt Flats and its racing surface by whatever means Legally available.
  What is the most important thing to remember is that We are ALL equal in wanting this to be resolved.  It is (in my opinion) time for each and every one of Us to remain focused on the goal and to act as One.  Forget the past.  Quit playing the "blame game".  Stop arguing over who gets publicity, who pointed a finger at who, and what if any compensation is being given to ANY and ALL of the unpaid volunteers  who have formed the Utah Alliance and continue to push our agenda forward.
  I would ask each and every one of us to refrain from any form of infighting, name calling, or whining about what others have posted on this site.
  If you have a gripe, P.M. the person or email them. If you have individual concerns contact The Utah Alliance personally. Discussion on this site remains important but only if it is not infiltrated with personal animosities and needless bickering. THIS IS OUR LAST SHOT............  LETS TAKE IT AS A UNITED GROUP.
                                                               Sincerely, Bob Drury
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: gnomenator on October 04, 2015, 01:39:38 PM
Very WELL said,Bob  :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: desotoman on October 04, 2015, 03:41:44 PM
To Louise, Jinx and Rick Vesco, Roger Lessman, Dennis Sullivan and all the other people involved in the Utah Alliance,

 Thank You for your time and effort.


Tom G.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on October 04, 2015, 03:59:13 PM
AMEN to that, Tom.  :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on October 21, 2015, 05:15:37 PM
Well, shazaam -

Got a call from Senator Baldwin's office.  Spoke with a staffer, who actually researched what's happening on the salt.

You could have knocked me over with a feather.

There's nothing actionable before congress or the senate that has a direct bearing on Bonneville, but he asked that I keep her office advised, and suggested continuing support of the Alliance and Save the Salt (HE brought it up, I didn't, so that's how I knew he had done some homework), and asked me to contact the office if there is anything they can directly help with.

I'm stunned.

Chris
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jdincau on October 21, 2015, 05:19:12 PM
Wow, I didn't get any response at all from either of my senators or my congressman. I do live in California, that may explain it.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: half-fast racer on October 21, 2015, 07:25:19 PM
The key is volume. While probably correct on nothing actionable before Congress, if the honorable Sen. Baldwin got 20 or 100 such letters, the reaction might be different. Same for our (so-called) reps in Cailfornia - though might need to add a 0 to the end of those numbers. Interestingly though, persistence sometimes works just as well. Multiple thoughtful (not crackpot) letters on the same subject, even from the same person, often produces results.

I still think we need VISIBILITY (translation - media!). Hopefully a full-court press at SEMA will start this, although I'm still partial to the million-racer march at Bonneville - no cars, just a BUNCH of us congregating for no other than exercising our right to free speech and dissent. Wendover would like it too.

We shall overcome!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Elmo Rodge on November 02, 2015, 02:59:39 PM
Let's see if this posts. Wayno
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on November 02, 2015, 03:08:27 PM
 :cheers:

Mike
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: kiwi belly tank on November 02, 2015, 03:28:55 PM
Good to see, thats a good start.
  Sid.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on November 02, 2015, 04:33:25 PM
 :cheers:

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: rgdavid on November 02, 2015, 04:47:45 PM
 Hello,
What can us european people do to help?
Anything for us to sign?
Letters to be written ?
To who?

Allthough i wiil probaly never go to the flats i dont ever want the national and international dream to die.
If there were letters to write i can spred the word on many french motorcycle forums,
Thanks,david :wink:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Sumner on November 02, 2015, 05:45:02 PM
Let's see if this posts. Wayno

(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15382.0;attach=53200;image)

Wayno thanks for posting that.  Made my day  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:,

Sum
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: tauruck on November 02, 2015, 06:07:50 PM
Thanks Wayno. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on November 02, 2015, 06:27:20 PM
Let's see if this posts. Wayno

PROGRESS!!!!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

I believe this may even be a Utah state's right issue and they can bring the necessary pressure to bear at the federal level!

Can I use this at the Indy PRI show in December, smak dab in the middle Utah man?  :?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 02, 2015, 07:44:30 PM
Great news, Wayno!

What I'm particularly happy to see is Governor Herbert's use of the terms "worldwide", "internationally famous" and "internationally recognized".

If his support is in earnest, I'm beginning to see a path where this can be viewed as -

A - A legitimate "State's Rights" issue

B - An environmental issue which looks like it can be handled in a quasi "Izaak Walton League" model of conservation involvement by racers - and
 
C - An international motorsports issue which can be utilized to raise awareness of what racers are dealing with

A while back, I posted this up to my LinkedIn account.  If you're on LinkedIn, and if you agree with my post, I'd encourage you to share it within the groups you are active with on LinkeIn.  LinkedIn tends to reach a somewhat more serious business focused audience than many of the other social media sites, and your personal influence within this community may well be the persuasion necessary to help knock over the next domino.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/battle-bonneville-what-auto-enthusiast-stands-lose-chris-conrad



Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on November 02, 2015, 08:28:34 PM
  The best part is at the bottom where it states a copy was sent to Sally Jewel, Who as the Head of the Department of Interior is The "Commander in Chief" of the BLM.
  I will bet there are some sweaty shorts at BLM Headquarters right now.
                                                                                                          Bob :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: vintageracecar on November 02, 2015, 11:51:26 PM
OK Guys,
Since nobody has posted it yet, I will.
The Utah Alliance posted a GREAT Video on FaceBook earlier today.
It was created by Ron Kirby on behalf of the Utah Alliance to Save the Salt.
I know many of you guys don't like to go on FB (right Wayno), but it's definitely worth it.
And No, you don't need to sign up on FB, or have to have an account to watch this.

https://www.facebook.com/savethesaltutah/videos/1519533188368879/

Very well done. Please link to it and share it if you are on FB.

Mike
 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Jack Gifford on November 03, 2015, 12:33:07 AM
I see the governor's letter as very good news.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 03, 2015, 10:03:49 AM
I see the governor's letter as very good news.

It's direct and to the point, it comes from a position of authority, it frames the issue with no hyperbole, he recognizes and addresses the international scope that the problem is precipitating, and it includes a call to action.

Statesmanship 101, this letter.

I don't know what his track record is with regard to mining v. environment, but if he stands behind this statement, we've got a very strong and articulate ally in Governor Herbert.

I'm thinking additional letters from racers to Neil Kornzie, Sally Jewel and Kevin Oliver, citing and referencing this letter and reinforcing the governor's position could well hasten BLM action.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: will6er on November 08, 2015, 07:20:33 PM
Okay-

I've got my business cards printed.
I'm going to get the poster printed to set up by my race car at the Denver show over Thanksgiving.

My problem is that the www.save-the-salt.org website has very little information.
     There is no link to the "news" page.
     There is no information on who makes up the Alliance.
     There is no contact information.

The Utah Alliance can certainly bring a new aspect to the drive for restoration of the Salt Flats.
I feel that should be trying to bring new people in to join our project rather the just "preach to the choir".

Just my .02

Will Willis
#6302
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on November 08, 2015, 08:42:51 PM
i just checked the website, www.save-the-salt.org and the info you referenced is all there. try again.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Elmo Rodge on November 08, 2015, 09:02:18 PM
Will6er, I just looked and I didn't see it either. It turns out you have to magically know you have to click on 3 little lines in the upper right hand corner.  :cheers: Wayno
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Elmo Rodge on November 08, 2015, 09:37:43 PM
I have a question regarding what I just posted. Does the website show up differently to people depending on how your computer is set up?  :? Wayno
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: ronnieroadster on November 08, 2015, 09:51:57 PM
When I go on the sve the salt site I also find the only way to get more info than the cover page is clicking onto those three little lines. It would be nice to see a traffic counter to see if the site gets many hits.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: will6er on November 08, 2015, 10:07:16 PM
Great-
I found it.

But- would someone only marginally interested know where to look?
A simple, "Click Here" would be much handier.

Thanks
Will6er
#6302
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on November 08, 2015, 10:39:54 PM
the nav bar apparently has limits on length/content. made some edits so it now is back on the main page.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: donpearsall on November 09, 2015, 12:39:26 AM
Clicking on the link to "Download this Poster" just displays a new window with a small .jpg image of the poster, not a PDF or a Word Doc that can be printed large. The small image would never be able to be printed on poster size paper with any quality. A PDF or .doc file would be much better.

Don

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 09, 2015, 01:49:31 AM
the nav bar apparently has limits on length/content. made some edits so it now is back on the main page.

Much more elegant - Graci!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Elmo Rodge on November 09, 2015, 07:57:30 AM
That did it. Thanx Roger. Wayno
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on November 09, 2015, 03:52:14 PM
just loaded a larger file of the poster. click on the link then click on the poster to enlarge.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: will6er on November 09, 2015, 09:43:09 PM
Thanks-

It works on my laptop now.(not so well on my iPhone)

I'll feel more confident handing out the cards.
I haven't picked the site over, but what I've seen is great.

Thanks again

Will6er
#6302
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on November 09, 2015, 10:29:49 PM
Roger, how'd the SEMA show go?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: will6er on November 10, 2015, 08:32:57 PM
Got my poster printed today and it is very good.
It's much better than the earlier one.

Thanks

Will6er
#6302
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on November 11, 2015, 01:08:28 PM
SEMA was huge, as always. I did not spend much time there. We had a meeting of the STS, UA and a number of others to discuss the BSF situation. Without getting into specifics, I can say the meeting was productive and we are hopeful a reclamation proposal will be forth coming that can be made public shortly. We have been very active on a number of fronts relative to engaging our elected officials in Nevada and Utah. We have their attention and expect their combined influence on the Dept of Interior and the BLM will ultimately be very helpful. Hope we can get more news posted on our website and Facebook page going forward.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: tauruck on November 11, 2015, 01:18:33 PM
Thanks for the news Roger. God Bless you. :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Ron Gibson on November 11, 2015, 01:19:23 PM
Roger
Thank you again for all you do.

Ron
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on November 11, 2015, 04:10:01 PM
  Rodger, I don't know if You realize just how much all of Us peon's appreciate Your keeping us Current.  Up to date information in Todays World is all We have to keep our sanity and our hopes and dreams alive.
  I would give You a big ol' smooch but I don't know how to print it.  Thanx again.
                                                               Bob Drury     :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RogerL on December 18, 2015, 11:16:06 AM
i have bee absent from the blog for a while, so will respond briefly.

thanks guys. we , the ua and sts, really appreciate your supportive comments. there is another thread on landracing that provides some more current information. you should check it out. just the last day or so we have received support from our nevada officials. we getting some tracking in dc.....
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 19, 2016, 04:07:27 PM
The last anything was said, we were looking for a reclamation proposal mid January.

Is it ready yet?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: desotoman on January 19, 2016, 05:30:24 PM
Here is the latest news from their website.

Tom G.

January 17, 2016

Join Congressman Chris Stewart at Events Aimed at Holding Federal Land Agencies Accountable

    Anyone in the land speed racing community is encouraged to attend. If you have a succinct, powerful comment, contact the Congressman's office in advance for a chance to speak. These comments will become part of the Congressional Record, but you MUST get on the speaker's list in advance of the meeting.

Friday, January 22, 2016

Dixie Convention Center
Entrada Room B/C
1835 South Convention Center Drive
St. George, Utah
 
10:00am MT:
House Natural Resources Committee Hearing
“Ensuring Local Input, Legal Consistency and Multi-Use Resource Management in St. George BLM Planning"
Members of Congress attending include:
• Congressman Chris Stewart (R-UT)
• Chairman Rob Bishop (R-UT)
• Chairman Jason Chaffetz (R-UT)
• Chairman Tom McClintock (R-CA)
• Congressman Alan Lowenthal (D-CA)
 
1:00pm MT:
Listening Session hosted by Congressman Stewart with special guests Oversight Committee Chairman Jason Chaffetz and Natural Resources Committee Chairman Rob Bishop
The topics that will be discussed at the listening session include:
• BLM Law Enforcement
• Federal Agency Actions Against Ranchers
• Potential Collusion between Federal Agencies and Environmental Groups
• Introduction of the Mexican Wolf
• Monument Designations
 
*Speaking at the listening session will be by invitation only. Those who do not get to speak may submit a written statement to Congressman Stewart’s office. A report from the listening session will be included in the Congressional Record.*

Congressman Chris Stewart'
Salt Lake City Office
420 East South Temple
Suite 390
Salt Lake City, UT 84111
Phone: 801·364·5550
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: ronnieroadster on January 19, 2016, 05:43:03 PM
I see nothing listed in the two meetings set for January 22 that has anything to do with the salt flats cituation.   :-o   Maybe mid January 2017
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 19, 2016, 06:37:11 PM
So may anyone submit in writing to the office -- like, maybe -- me?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on January 26, 2016, 08:01:49 AM
Do we have to wait until published in the Congressional Record?

Why?

Sam
#6062
Title: Replacing Alienation with Cooperation on Track for Bonneville Salt Flats Restora
Post by: velocity on January 29, 2016, 12:08:42 PM
Replacing Alienation with Cooperation on Track for Bonneville Salt Flats Restoration

FOR RELEASE JANUARY 29, 2016                                   Contact: Louise Ann Noeth |  louise@savethesalt.org

“Refuse to settle for the status quo and defy the powers who loathe to have it disturbed.” - S. Hendrix

Salt Lake City, UT - - Back-to-back years of wet weather, coupled with years of federal mismanagement, has created unsafe surface conditions and ramped up frustrations among the land speed racing community. Save the Salt Coalition and the Utah Alliance recognized that adversarial postures would contribute nothing to the restoration of the Bonneville Salt Flats, an Area of Critical Environmental Concern, and instead spent the past six months cultivating new, productive relationships with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), Intrepid Potash-Wendover, and elected representatives on city, state and federal levels.

The result was an unprecedented improvement in communication and cooperation between the BLM and the land speed racing community. Numerous substantive conversations percolated a vigorous exchange of information, ideas and documents. Chief among them is the possibility of withdrawing all 10 mineral leases located north of Interstate 80 from future mining.

The racing community contends that Bonneville lost millions of tons of salt over many decades due to the leases. However, only three percent of Intrepid-Potash’s current annual production is derived from all 10 leases combined. The mining company is willing to abandon the leases altogether so long as no other competitor is allowed to take them over.

We have asked the BLM to investigate the appropriate process to withdraw the 10 leases from all future mining. Normally it is a cumbersome federal process that can take years, but we are working with both BLM staff and elected officials to speed the effort.

Additionally, we are patiently waiting for the delivery of the Bingham Report, a comprehensive engineering document commissioned by the Save the Salt Coalition and Utah Alliance with short- and long-term recommendations for restoring Bonneville. This document forms the basis of the land speed racing community’s position statement.

Among the action items will be: a plan to maximize the brine return program volume as well as control the brine return by creating a containment area; protect the already fragile salt surface from additional mud drift; closing the I-80 culverts to retain laydown brine flow; shift from voluntary to mandatory salt return; require measurement, monitoring, reporting, and analysis of the salt return amounts as well as salt extracted from areas that could impact the international speedway; actively evaluate alternative mechanisms and processes for salt return.


The Save the Salt Foundation (StS) is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to restore the world-famous Bonneville Salt Flats. The Utah Alliance (UA) is a volunteer Utah-based advocacy group using its expertise and contacts at the local level to protect this Historic Place listed on the National Register. The Save the Salt Coalition (StSc) is an umbrella group comprised of automotive and motorsports companies and organizations with a vested interest in this national treasure. All three organizations are collaborating to keep the Bonneville Salt Flats available for future generations.
 

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Peter Jack on January 29, 2016, 02:08:30 PM
Louise:

This appears to be good news. Thank-you for that.

As racers impatience is part of our DNA but hopefully most of us will try to stay balanced and look forward to further progress.

Any news of how restoration plans will affect this year's programs and future events would be welcome as soon as any plans are made.

Pete
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 29, 2016, 10:08:42 PM
Again, I see the mining company silently thanking the racing community for assisting in there cost cutting efforts by possibly allowing them a way out of their BLM contract early & saving them, was it 2.8 million dollars per year plus a product share to the BLM? :?
Sure they need to be gone for the salt to have a chance at survival here but they've pretty much sucked the bitch dry to the point of a whole 3% of their productivity.
  Sid.
       As usual, just sayin it how it is!
     
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on January 29, 2016, 11:14:06 PM
Yes - Bingham Report.

We were expecting that two weeks ago. 

Is there a problem?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RidgeRunner on January 29, 2016, 11:20:42 PM
     Only 3% eh?   The old fart cynic in me wonders where the the other 97% productivity is supposed to be coming from.  My wanabe youthful optimistic view sure hopes it isn't from across I-80 on the South side...........

                                  Ed
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Sumner on January 30, 2016, 12:18:01 PM
    Only 3% eh?   The old fart cynic in me wonders where the the other 97% productivity is supposed to be coming from.  My wanabe youthful optimistic view sure hopes it isn't from across I-80 on the South side...........

                                  Ed

I think it is reference to Intrepid's total productivity from all of their operations..... but maybe not,

Sumner
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Texican on January 30, 2016, 12:43:21 PM
  Here is some news regarding our Legislature doing something.
Let's hope there is more action than the usual "Har-ump, Har-ump!"


http://le.utah.gov/~2016/bills/static/HCR008.html
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on January 30, 2016, 02:53:58 PM
The report was due at the end of January -- now.  And we've been notified that they want to do a little more -- asked for 3 more weeks.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Sumner on January 30, 2016, 03:32:35 PM
  Here is some news regarding our Legislature doing something.
Let's hope there is more action than the usual "Har-ump, Har-ump!"


http://le.utah.gov/~2016/bills/static/HCR008.html

That is very impressive and a big thanks to everyone involved to get things this far in a relatively short period of time this last year,

Sumner
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on January 31, 2016, 01:35:23 PM
Utah Alliance Save the Salt
January 29 at 12:21pm ·
The Utah Alliance has been notified that the "Bonneville Salt Flats Restoration Plan" completion has been delayed for approximately 6 weeks due to our engineer's busy schedule. But the good news is the annual pumping of salt brine from Intrepid's ponds back onto the flats north of I-80 has begun on time. While we wait for "The Plan" the UA will continue to consolidate our position and provide legislators both in Utah and Nevada with current as well as historical documents to help them fully understand the demise of the BSF and the BLM's role in that demise. My computer dictionary defines demise as: "the end or failure of an enterprise or institution." The institution of land speed racing is hanging by a thread and the BLM is responsible. They have failed to live up to their mandate to manage the BSF as an Area of Critical Environmental Concern (ACEC). The damage can be reversed, the salt has not disappeared, but immediate action is necessary. Be prepared for a full court press in the coming months.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: kiwi belly tank on January 31, 2016, 03:15:15 PM
Utah Alliance Save the Salt
January 29 at 12:21pm ·
The Utah Alliance has been notified that the "Bonneville Salt Flats Restoration Plan" completion has been delayed for approximately 6 weeks due to our engineer's busy schedule. But the good news is the annual pumping of salt brine from Intrepid's ponds back onto the flats north of I-80 has begun on time. While we wait for "The Plan" the UA will continue to consolidate our position and provide legislators both in Utah and Nevada with current as well as historical documents to help them fully understand the demise of the BSF and the BLM's role in that demise. My computer dictionary defines demise as: "the end or failure of an enterprise or institution." The institution of land speed racing is hanging by a thread and the BLM is responsible. They have failed to live up to their mandate to manage the BSF as an Area of Critical Environmental Concern (ACEC). The damage can be reversed, the salt has not disappeared, but immediate action is necessary. Be prepared for a full court press in the coming months.

I don't see any good news in the pumping program as it stands. With the drains still open back to the south side of the freeway & the north side pumps still pumping to the south side, the only thing happening here is dilution & loss of the existing salt on the north side while they're still trying to suck that last 3% of product out of the dying flats.
  Sid.

   
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on January 31, 2016, 04:17:00 PM
  Yep, their engineers are busy all right.  They are trying to engineer Bunkers and Dikes around all the Offices and Outpost's of Federal Land Management and/or under control of The Department of Interior nation wide.
  This little fiasco in Burns, Oregon has not only Lit The Flame of all the so called Patriots, Looney Birds, and Idiots, but also the Ranchers and Farmers across the nation who have a beef (pun intended) and struggle with a Government who floods subsidies to Tax dodging Agra-Business Corporations and Big Business while seemingly requiring the "little People" to jump through different hoops every year.
  The sad part is that the "Nut Factor" makes a lot of sense to the Ranchers and Farmers and people who's income depends on legitimate use by permit of every thing from Forests to Fisheries to (and I hate to say this) Salt resources and other Mineral deposits.
  Unfortunately I am afraid Our position on the Hot List at BLM offices has slipped below Self Defense Training for their Employees and may well be there for some time to come. The BLM is very proficient using "Stall Tactics" as they have proven time after time in the past in responding to inquiries and requests for information or actions.
                                                                                                            Bob Drury
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Polyhead on January 31, 2016, 04:25:57 PM
 Yep, their engineers are busy all right.  They are trying to engineer Bunkers and Dikes around all the Offices and Outpost's of Federal Land Management and/or under control of The Department of Interior nation wide.

  Unfortunately I am afraid Our position on the Hot List at BLM offices has slipped below Self Defense Training for their Employees and may well be there for some time to come. The BLM is very proficient using "Stall Tactics" as they have proven time after time in the past in responding to inquiries and requests for information or actions.
                                                                                                            Bob Drury

Well you do have to admire their sense of self preservation.  Sucks being on the losing end of it though.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on February 26, 2016, 10:51:28 AM
This was reported to the entire SEMA membership worldwide this past week:

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2016/08/utah-legislature-advances-resolution-urging-the-restoration-of-the-bonneville?utm_source=ET&utm_medium=email&utm_content=50800723&utm_campaign=eNews


ALERT: Following the Utah House vote in support of HCR 8, the Utah Senate Committee of Natural Resources unanimously vote "aye" for the HCR 8, sending to the Senate floor for a vote early next week.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on March 19, 2016, 12:35:45 PM
On Monday, March 14th, 2016, Governor Herbert signed House Concurrent Resolution  (H.C.R.) 8 in support of Bonneville's restoration.
http://www.utah.gov/governor/news_media/article.html?article=20160318-1


If you are in any way doubtful that letter writing to legislators is a waste of time, especially if you don't live in the state, here is proof positive that thinking is incorrect.
http://le.utah.gov/publicweb/LIFFEDE/PublicWeb/34808/34808.html

Every voice is heard.
Don't expect a personal reply.
As many voices join-in the message strengthens and propels the urgency upwards.
One link is a carabiner, many links are a chain that capture attention.

We will need every single land speed racer to write to their elected Congressional leaders within the next few weeks as we take this message to Washington D.C. Start roughing out some notes explaining why they should care. Make them care by telling them what the place means to you, what you did there that you cannot do elsewhere, and why it is important to make today’s people care about tomorrow with yesterdays dreams realized.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: rgdavid on March 19, 2016, 01:42:58 PM
How can overseas fans help ?

At least to show that there is a worldwide following.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on March 19, 2016, 02:44:31 PM
Thank you for asking!

YES!

Anyone outside the USA can also help!

Save the Salt and Utah Alliance will post a email link for the pertinent legislators considering new policy in committee as well as votes in the House and Senate.

There is no reason why the same letter can't go to all involved.

That the US Congressional leaders would get input from people outside the USA dramatically shows the far-reaching value and concern about Bonneville.

We would expect a BIG response from the United Kingdom, but all contacts to Richard Noble and Andy Green asking for a letter of support have thus far gone unanswered. Very sad.

Here is a link to the recent NPR Radio report:

http://kuer.org/post/governor-signs-resolution-restore-salt-flats
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: SPARKY on March 20, 2016, 01:20:17 PM
As a member of the 200 MPH Club, I volunteered to spearhead the efforts of the 200 MPH Club to get more racers to enlist in this fight to RESTORE TO PRESERVE the beloved Bonneville Salt Flats. I will be working to get the UTAH ALLIANCE message and Agenda to more individuals. 

The 200 Club will be working with and through SEMA's SAN  --SEMA's Action Network because they have lots and lots thinks already in place---we can help them help us---so please  go to

 SEMASAN.com in the upper left hand corner ENLIST NOW 
This was coordination effort was finalized just last week.  I will keep you posted and will be asking your help.
Sparky
305sparky@gmail.com

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on March 20, 2016, 03:15:33 PM
Still waiting for the draft proposal. We were told mid January - then another 6 weeks - where are we at on that, please?
Thank you.
Chris
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: SPARKY on March 20, 2016, 03:41:34 PM
The COLLECTIVE WE are waiting on it.

 I do not know the mechanics of this report but it is my understanding we are waiting on a volunteers time to consolidate all of the very diversified reports, and knowledge into a plan of action that would restore and preserve the International Course to its former distance as well as what we all have been running on.  SEMA's Washington Group is targeting introducing legislation in this session that would call for such restoration at some Date Certain in the future.   We need as many as possible to have ENLISTED with SEMASAN.com to help push this legislation

LEVEL I.  a person in each state that has a member on any of the Committees this legislation will have to work its way through once introduced.  I will be posting this list soon.

LEVEL II  All racers to contact their Representatives and Senators to support this legislation to Restore and Preserve the Salt Flats
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on April 07, 2016, 02:03:06 AM
Land Speed Racing Community

The engineering plan has been delivered to Utah Alliance members Tom Burkland, Larry Volk and Dennis Sullivan who are now reviewing it.
The Congressional legislation has been drafted, reviewed and stands at the ready if needed.
The BLM has requested a summit on the now high-profile situation (God Bless You Utah HCR 8) to formally receive the combined input from Utah Alliance and Save the Salt on what and how the salt restoration process could be activated.

IF all our work continues to progress in this VERY CONSTRUCTIVE manner, there may well be historic movement made to benefit the salt and all who use it by mid-year.

Stand by. The march to restoration is gathering traction.

LandSpeed Louise

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: gnomenator on April 07, 2016, 10:40:07 AM
Thanks for the update Louise,if we keep pushing, maybe we'll see some salt 'rooster-tails' this year or soon at least!! Thanks to all who have invested so much time & effort in our fight !!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: SPARKY on April 07, 2016, 11:37:10 AM
Absolutely GREAT news!! Thanks to all who are working to Restore to Preserve the Salt Flats!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on April 07, 2016, 01:01:03 PM
  Thanks Louise.  All of Us not privey to the work being done by The Utah Alliance and Save The Salt  members appreciate the tireless (and free) work being done by You Folks.  The rest of Us need to "stand ready" and answer the call  when help is needed.
                                                                   Bob Drury
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: SPARKY on April 10, 2016, 08:28:52 AM
ALL of We Car "Guys" around the world need to sign up and Support SEMA's SAN  and participate in their efforts!

Yesterday they sent out a blast that the Whitehouse had responded to 177,000 signatures about the EPAs efforts to outlaw racing modifications to production vechicles  was under further study.

We do not have to re-invent the wheel---we need to learn to multiply or voice by joining and supporting other much larger organizations in their efforts---Support most of the time help support---we nee all the support we can muster---Thanks again Tom for suggesting SAN!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on April 16, 2016, 01:33:02 PM
All:

The link below will load Chad Booth’s “The County Seat” , an online version of his local Salt Lake television show aired April 15th that examines the pressing issues facing Toole County including Bonneville and Miller Motorsports Park. Featured are Dennis Sullivan, Tom Burkland, Mike Crawford as well as Toole County Commissioner Shawn Milne who says about the salt restoration,

”A team effort is the only way it is going to happen.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diWS_qYD458&list=PLum3SCQ9mGZR0PqCWvkypoTy43rCovCut
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: SPARKY on April 16, 2016, 11:46:18 PM
Louise,  Thanks for all you are doing---thanks for getting the word out--I agree it is going to take a team effort on all fronts the more we can get involved in various fronts--the more influence we will have.

Thanks again for all who lead,

 I hope that more and more  will become and do some small thing!!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on April 25, 2016, 12:38:06 AM
Interested parties will find an recently published, in-depth article "The Rape of Bonneville" by author and motorsports writer David Tremayne posted on the Save the Salt and Utah Alliance website. it was publilshed in the April 17, 2016 issue of Grand Prix Magazine in Europe.

http://www.savethesalt.org/

http://www.save-the-salt.org/
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: 4-barrel Mike on April 25, 2016, 01:19:51 AM
Thank you, Lady, for all that you do.

Mike
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: TrickyDicky on April 25, 2016, 02:25:49 AM
Interested parties will find an recently published, in-depth article "The Rape of Bonneville" by author and motorsports writer David Tremayne posted on the Save the Salt and Utah Alliance website. it was publilshed in the April 17, 2016 issue of Grand Prix Magazine in Europe.

http://www.savethesalt.org/

http://www.save-the-salt.org/

It's Grand Prix Plus (or GP+) and it's brilliant!  See http://grandprixplus.com.

I saw David Tremayne's article and wondered whether I could post it here without infringing copyright. He has solved that problem for me.

Needless to say, I have no connection with David Tremayne or Joe Saward, although I have met Joe and am trying to work out a way of connecting with David.


GP+ is a state-of-the-art e-magazine available just hours after each Formula 1 World Championship race

... no matter where in the world it takes place.

The magazine is usually between 75 and 90 pages and is accessible electronically in PDF format. You can read it on your computer, your tablet and even on your mobile phone.

A subscription to GP+ runs from January 1 to December 31, 2016. There will be 23 magazines in 2016: a preview, 21 race issues (if there are 21 races) and a seasonal review.

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Robin UK on April 25, 2016, 02:46:20 AM
I was with David Tremayne earlier in the week (Malcolm Pittwood was also in the audience as was Adrian Reynard) at Cranfield University when he gave an LSR lecture which obviously included Bonneville. Students doing degree courses in motor sport engineering have been using record breaking as the basis of their studies for their final year. I'm following up David's lecture with a 2 wheel focussed version in a couple of weeks when four teams of students present final design studies based on their research. The brief was to design a 500cc streamliner to FIM rules. Be interesting to see how the designs vary since all have assumed Bonneville as their run location. There is no intention to build the liners although they will be runing them on their Motorsport simulator. Robin
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: wheelrdealer on April 25, 2016, 06:46:58 AM
Thank you  Louise  for keeping us up to date.

Bill Reilly
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 05, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
News Alert - May 5, 2016

Please see post: Department of Interior Bonneville Salt Flats Fairy Tale

on Save the Salt Coalition or Utah Alliance website links below

http://www.savethesalt.org/
http://www.save-the-salt.org/
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 05, 2016, 01:35:45 PM
Good show, Mr. Kirby et al.  I just watched it - party to see the story, partly 'cause I needed a salt fix.  The opener - the sound track from a run by Tom Burkland in the family 'liner - is a video I've shown to hundreds of people over the years.  Great way to0 get the audience to perk up!

I posted it to my FB page.  Let's see what hoi polloi says.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 05, 2016, 11:38:58 PM
Ron Kirby did indeed do a magnificent job with that video. The script was adapted from my article "Shrinking Salt Speedway" written some years earlier. To have him craft the moving images to match my words was marvelous and showsyou how many years Ron has been caprturing footage on the salt.

A Great Big Bravo!

Take a bow Mr. Kirby.

LandSpeed Louise
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on May 05, 2016, 11:47:46 PM
News Alert - May 5, 2016

Please see post: Department of Interior Bonneville Salt Flats Fairy Tale

on Save the Salt Coalition or Utah Alliance website links below

http://www.savethesalt.org/
http://www.save-the-salt.org/


"...crust is 5 feet thick..." ????????????  :x  Who is responsible for putting out this crap?

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: joea on May 06, 2016, 07:34:53 AM
Not to worry ....they are now doing a "study"...to help understand the mud dirt and dust that is now being blown around on the salt ...because of its impact to the "ecosystem"...

Just the facts
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: WOODY@DDLLC on May 06, 2016, 10:25:11 AM
 :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :x :x :x :x
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on May 06, 2016, 11:47:35 AM
Mark;

Regarding your first paragraph- isn't that pretty much how the whole government works these days? The present political climate is based on many folks finally getting fed up with things as they are.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: distributorguy on May 10, 2016, 08:30:22 AM
Is there a liaison at Intrepid who would be willing to talk directly with us about our "simple solution"?  Since we all know BLM and the Utah Alliance will take decades to make any form of decision, maybe working around them is the more appropriate solution?  It would be good press for Intrepid to help save the salt, even if it simply means taking baby steps at this point.  You have to assume someone there is reading this forum in attempt to stay one step ahead of us. 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Peter Jack on May 10, 2016, 10:11:22 AM
Is there a liaison at Intrepid who would be willing to talk directly with us about our "simple solution"?  Since we all know BLM and the Utah Alliance will take decades to make any form of decision, maybe working around them is the more appropriate solution?  It would be good press for Intrepid to help save the salt, even if it simply means taking baby steps at this point.  You have to assume someone there is reading this forum in attempt to stay one step ahead of us.  

Utah Alliance is effectively "us" and they've made huge progress in the last short while compared to any other effort that's been made. I'm sure they'll continue to make efforts in any direction possible to continue any progress that's been accomplished.

Pete
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: distributorguy on May 10, 2016, 10:23:55 AM
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like the Utah Alliance is part of the problem.   I meant to be that BLM is slowing things down and Utah Alliance should work around BLM to get something accomplished, if anyone at Intrepid is willing to let us work on preventing runoff.  That's a HUGE "if" but it sure appears that's the next chess piece to be moved.  Again, imagine the positive press (incentive) for Intrepid!    The donkey won't move if we don't dangle a carrot. 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 11, 2016, 03:19:52 PM
JOINT SAVE THE SALT AND UTAH ALLIANCE PRESS RELEASE POSTED MAY 10, 2016:

"DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR FAIRY TALE"

FOR DETAILS LOG ONTO:

WWW.SAVETHESALT.ORG

WWW.SAVE-THE-SALT.ORG
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on May 11, 2016, 07:11:16 PM


Unable to find any new press release dated 5/10/2016 on either site.


http://www.save-the-salt.org/news/
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jl222 on May 12, 2016, 02:38:51 AM
Mark;

Regarding your first paragraph- isn't that pretty much how the whole government works these days? The present political climate is based on many folks finally getting fed up with things as they are.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Neil,

Yes, I believe you are correct.     The problem, as I see it, is that angry people continue to vote against their own self interest(s), electing representatives who are in bed with the ultra wealthy elites.     Why does this happen?   I wish I knew.

But, it is also important for me to note that many of the "angry Hippies" that were protesting at the '68 Democratic Convention with me, and wanted to ultimately "change the World", have somehow turned into a cadre of insult shouting, would be "hipsters".    They want to build border fences, deport minorities, prevent immigration of those with religious beliefs that do not match theirs, and "Police the entire Globe".     Using nuclear arms, if necessary . . . . . . . etc, etc, etc . . . . .    We, as taxpayers, can not continue to fund these "burdens".

I can not fathom what has happened to my friends from high school and college.    It is no surprise to me that the "Donald", "loves the under educated."

Louise, I sincerely apologize for this thread hi-jack and will say no more.

Respectfully,
Mark

  That's deport illegal immigrants [they sure as hell put me out of my tile business] work an elitist like you, looks down his nose at.
 A temporary ban on Muslims to vet them to make sure their not terrorist. Ever heard of San Bernardino?
 Look up the Koran and all the directives to kill the infidels or non believers. And you want them in?
  Yeah and build a big ass wall to keep The illegals and drugs out.
  Don't forget about fair trade and bringing jobs back.
 While your at it look up the minimum wage in Mexico .62 cents an hr. China .80 And India .28  The U.S. social security tax on 8 hrs min wage is more than Mexico's daily min wage, And if you can get your highly educated mind to add up all the other U.S. requirements, work mans comp, State disability ,unemployment insurance ECT.
 With these low wages does your highly educated mind think it might be cheaper to build factories in these countries?

  Ford boy.. if your for illegal immigrants ...drugs... non vetted Muslims that believe in the Koran ... open borders and rip off trade
deals. The WITCH OF BENCAZIE IS YOUR BITCH.

   jl222
 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: krusty on May 12, 2016, 07:20:48 AM
Everyone should go back and read "Forum Rules" prior to posting, especially in this contentious election year. This forum is about Landracing.

vic
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Milwaukee Midget on May 12, 2016, 10:13:42 AM

 work an elitist like you, looks down his nose at.
 

I have to stop you right there.

Mark's skills as a finish carpenter and wood worker, along with his automotive engineering prowess and fabrication skills, indeed, put him in the class of the elite.

And also know this - if Mark is looking down his nose at such work - work I've watched him perform - it's a fair bet that there's sweat dripping from that nose, and that work is being accomplished at a very high level of skill.

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 12, 2016, 11:47:26 AM
Okay, folks -- it's time to get back to the main idea of landracing.com - land speed racing and the manifold variations thereof.

But not the tangent this thread just headed for.  Please.  Okay?  Consider following my dictum:

I never argue politics, I never argue religion, and I NEVER tell a woman that her baby is ugly.
[/size][/color]


Follow that concept and there'll be little stress in your life.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: 55chevr on May 14, 2016, 08:43:27 AM
Jon - you offer great wisdom.  I would add that if a woman ever asks you a question like, "Does this dress make me look fat," I suggest you lie.

Joe
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: gkabbt on May 14, 2016, 06:45:09 PM

The WITCH OF BENCAZIE IS YOUR BITCH.

   jl222
 

BENCAZIE

ROTFLMMFGDAO!!!!!

Geronimo!
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 14, 2016, 07:05:26 PM
Remember the old doctor show, from the 60s?  Isn't that the name of the physician?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on May 14, 2016, 08:08:02 PM
Right- played by Vince Edwards.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on May 17, 2016, 12:12:48 PM
Not necessarily conne3cted directly to Utah Alliance news, but I figger lotsa eyeballs might enjoy seeing this:

http://www.sltrib.com/home/3898286-155/blm-opens-salt-flats-summit-after
 
 



Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: donpearsall on May 17, 2016, 05:30:00 PM
Quote
While the BLM acknowledged last summer that the salt crust was extremely thin or absent entirely from some areas of the salt flats, the agency's scientists have struggled to explain the crust's change and variability. The BLM has tapped the U. to study the salt flats, hoping to understand whether the crust's decline is the result of human activity or some complex but entirely natural cycle, as others have suggested.

So the BLM scientists don't know where the salt went? After 100 years of mining the salt from Bonneville they commissioned a study to figure if that has an effect? Maybe someone at that meeting can tell them so they can save some time and money on a study.

Don
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on May 19, 2016, 09:31:54 AM
Ahem,
  "The engineering plan has been delivered to Utah Alliance members Tom Burkland, Larry Volk and Dennis Sullivan who are now reviewing it."

Will the rest of us ever get to see it?

Sam
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 20, 2016, 02:40:37 AM
The opening Statement and complete Position Paper presented at the May 17, 2016 Bonneville Summit can be accessed at:

www.save-the-salt.org

A report of the proceedings is being drafted and will be posted to Utah Alliance and Save the Salt websites ate later date.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: distributorguy on May 20, 2016, 08:15:40 AM
Now I have a Tom Cruise line from Jerry Maguire stuck in my head.  "Help me help you."  Anyone remember the scene?
Beautiful sentiment and a great ad campaign, but was any headway made in the meeting, or was it another "good will" meeting for everyone, locked in a stalemate?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 20, 2016, 06:36:42 PM
The Bingham Report is contained within the Position Paper.

Interested Parties are encouraged to download the documents and read the civil engineer's recommendation to the BLM.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 20, 2016, 07:08:25 PM
The Bingham Report
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Interested Observer on May 20, 2016, 07:20:40 PM
Louise,
Maybe it's just me, but I can't get the Position Paper to download.  Have others been able to do it?
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: donpearsall on May 20, 2016, 07:26:13 PM
I can't see anything to download on the position paper page. Nothing called The Bingham Report in the documents page either.
Louise, can you just give a direct link to this download?

Don
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jdincau on May 20, 2016, 07:43:38 PM
All I can see is the opening statement, the link to the paper is broken.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stan Back on May 20, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
Maybe it's gonna scroll in cutesy from the right.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Richard 2 on May 20, 2016, 08:02:56 PM
We had a Large Family Party a while back. A family member from Kansas was looking at some of my Bonneville Pictures on the wall and he says to me, I've hauled a lot of salt out of Wendover to Kansas for ice control on roads. 
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Glen on May 20, 2016, 10:32:59 PM
I saw and read a few pages on the Bingham engr report. It is 105 pages long. A lot of data and history of the salt and the current conditions. I don't have a copy. The report is awesome and the BLM just don't understand it or does the girl that really is on the side of BLM. I saw her babble on the TV news it was a poor presentation. Wish us a lot of luck.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 21, 2016, 04:13:54 AM
The download link for the Position Paper stopped working for some reason.

It has been repaired. Please be aware it is a 12.3 MB download

http://www.save-the-salt.org/

Our apologies for the delay.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 21, 2016, 05:22:26 PM
The link below is a companion piece to Emma Penrod’s recent reports in the Salt Lake City Tribune.

We find the writer to be woefully ignorant of the situation and will be submitting a rebuttal. Interested parties might consider posting comments of their own.

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3915182-155/editorial-racers-can-wait-while-salt
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: fordboy628 on May 22, 2016, 10:54:45 AM
The link below is a companion piece to Emma Penrod’s recent reports in the Salt Lake City Tribune.

We find the writer to be woefully ignorant of the situation and will be submitting a rebuttal. Interested parties might consider posting comments of their own.

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3915182-155/editorial-racers-can-wait-while-salt

"Woefully ignorant" is kind.   This is exactly what happened when the "Trout Wars" began with the BLM back in the 80's . . . . . .    Obfuscation and the "demand" for "more study".   This will give whoever, UNIMPEDED access to continue to "extract" the resource, without significant financial return to the taxpayer.   As in the Northwest, it will eventually be made public that the fees paid to the BLM for the "right to extract", do not even cover the administrative costs at the BLM.

Some things NEVER change.

Well, except the amount of salt on the flats . . . . . .
 :cry:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on May 25, 2016, 08:08:03 PM
May 24, 2016 News article

Hemmings Daily

Bonneville racers accuse BLM of dragging its feet after plans for further salt flats study


Read at:

http://www.save-the-salt.org/news/
or
http://www.savethesalt.org/
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on May 26, 2016, 09:00:37 AM
"...accelerate the salt laydown effort,...."

It's running lean? FLOOR IT!

Sam
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on June 01, 2016, 06:09:01 PM
Interested parties will be able to download Dr. Brenda Bowen's presentation at the May 17th Bonneville Summit at the University of Utah's Natural History Museum using the link below

http://www.save-the-salt.org/new-page-2/
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on June 02, 2016, 08:46:26 AM
What a wonderful presentation!
Dr. Bowen will certainly earn her wages as an expert witness to the end of the Bonneville Salt Flats.

From page 80;

Salt   laydown   began   in   1998   
• Cycling   NaCl   and   KCl   through   harvest   –   laydown      
• Net   deposiRon   of   >5   million   tons   of   NaCl   to   system   since   1998   
• Predicted   2”   increase   in   salt   crust,   but   none   observed

Intrepid should be proud.
Money well spent.

Sam
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Robin UK on June 02, 2016, 12:33:40 PM
Ok - I'm just the dumb Brit around here so I'll stick my head above the parapet. I've been on the receiving end of many hi tech research and development presentations over the years from people either seeking business support for their ideas or with the results of studies explaining what went wrong or what is about to go spectacularly wrong. Most were from people bright enough to make your head hurt and often involved serious financial, security or operational risk to large global corporations. I do hope that there is a one page executive summary or something very similar to go with these slides because without it, they are neither use nor ornament to anybody other than those involved in the study. They certainly look pleased with themselves in the pics. To be honest, if somebody had come to me with a set of slides like these they'd be out of the door in 5 minutes with a request to come back when they can explain things more clearly, more succinctly and in a more structured way. One of the simplest tests you can ever apply to any complex issue being presented to you is - "which means that?" I found myself asking that question after every slide (sometimes every line) as well as at the end of the overall presentation. I'm still unsure if it adds anything at all to the debate other than to prove to other academics how clever those involved in this study are. A sort of geological one-upmanship. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh because I'm sure they are all nice people who enjoy their work but this just the sort of stuff either promoted by or seized on by those wanting to maintain the status quo or protect their own backsides.

Robin
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: half-fast racer on June 02, 2016, 01:01:01 PM
Well said and spot on.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Malcolm UK on June 02, 2016, 02:11:55 PM
Ok - I'm just the dumb Brit around here so I'll stick my head above the parapet. ... I'm still unsure if it adds anything at all to the debate other than to prove to other academics how clever those involved in this study are. A sort of geological one-upmanship. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh because I'm sure they are all nice people who enjoy their work but this just the sort of stuff either promoted by or seized on by those wanting to maintain the status quo or protect their own backsides.
Robin

I will be the second dumb Brit, Robin.  As a standalone document it is of no use without hearing the words spoken by the Author. I edited your words to a shortened 'quote' above and that removes much of their heartfelt meaning.  However I can smell 'bull***t' when I get near it and few of the slides would appear to me to have been of any use during a presentation - too complex, too detailed. How long would each of the 87 have been on screen?

What is needed is some plain American English and as some others have already suggested some simple maths.

PS Whoever predicted a 'growth' in the salt 'crust' of two inches?       
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Harold Bettes on June 02, 2016, 02:17:40 PM
Surely the PowerPoint presentation was done by one of Dr. Brenda's undergrunts as it is certainly not PhD level quality nor content. :roll:

In short, the white washing buckets doth run over.............. :dhorse:

Even a nimrod can see that there is less good old crusty NaCl on the surface and logic would further indicate that the only way to gain any crust back is to lay down SALT which is currently south of the highway. And that stuff belongs back on the north side of the highway from whence it came! :-o

Describing a salt laydown project that is pumping a gazillion gallons of brine water is not logical at all. :-P

Halides on top!  Poor presentations such as the one offered is a smack in the face of logic even though it gives Dr. Brenda some undergrunts to manipulate.

Regards to All,
HB2 :-)
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: manta22 on June 02, 2016, 09:44:54 PM
On page 12, titled "Sedimentary  layers  record  change  over  time", it indicates that in 1962 the salt crust (I assume this is the "Dense Cemented Halite (DCH)" but the terminology is not consistent in this presentation.) was 3 1/2 feet thick!

Later on page 29 it states that "In  Oct  2013:  No  upper halite  crust  over  ~10 cm  in  thickness observed"---- I didn't see any explanation for what happened to the salt crust, i.e. where it went.

This presentation presented far too much "padding" and only a little that is actually helpful. I am reminded of the old expression "If you can't dazzle them with footwork, baffle them with bull$hit".

Disappointing...  :-(

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: fordboy628 on June 03, 2016, 07:08:15 AM
Agree with all the above statements . . . . . .

Same old BLM, same old BS, only the names and the faces of the participants are different . . . . . .

Same old, same old . . . .       Told Ya . . . . .

The OPERATIVE QUESTION, Where did 3.5 feet of Halite thickness go to?    remains unaddressed by the powers that be.

And that is just the way they want it to stay . . . . . .  until EVERYTHING of value is EXTRACTED.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Robert Rampton on June 03, 2016, 09:04:28 AM
ALL - Please note the frames released do not have the in-depth commentary provided by Dr. Bowen. All in the room were very impressed by her explains of the science side - there were not conclusions, simply a statement those areas currently under study - several of which were added because of input from the racing community.

I concur that the frames are not self-explanatory and were never meant to be so. The entire point here is to share data and info.

Thanks to some private tutoring time, I can explain all up to page 25, with more tutoring coming until I get the whole doc sorted. Dr. Bowen has been NOTHING but cooperative with the Utah Alliance an Save the Salt.

Please understand that I do not have time to answer every question from the LSR community, but I DO INTEND to be ready for nay questions from members of the US Congress and staff as we press forward with legislation to effect restorative change.

Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stainless1 on June 03, 2016, 10:58:49 AM
Agree with all the above statements . . . . . .

The OPERATIVE QUESTION, Where did 3.5 feet of Halite thickness go to?    remains unaddressed by the powers that be.

And that is just the way they want it to stay . . . . . .  until EVERYTHING of value is EXTRACTED.

We all know where it is... on rail cars to everywhere, with the remainder in the large settling ponds waiting to be put on rail cars when it becomes economically feasible. The salt laydown was a smoke screen for adding more water to wash the crust down the open drains to extract any immediately salable materials and put the remainder in storage. 
The laydown will only work if the drains are closed
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: gas pumper on June 03, 2016, 12:34:08 PM
Stainless1, exactly my view of this operation, too. Dilution is the solution for more extraction, not more salt returned.
Frank
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Dakin Engineering on June 28, 2016, 09:35:09 AM
Robert,
  I would love to hear the explanations.

"ALL - Please note the frames released do not have the in-depth commentary provided by Dr. Bowen. All in the room were very impressed by her explains of the science side - there were not conclusions, simply a statement those areas currently under study - several of which were added because of input from the racing community.

I concur that the frames are not self-explanatory and were never meant to be so. The entire point here is to share data and info.

Thanks to some private tutoring time, I can explain all up to page 25, with more tutoring coming until I get the whole doc sorted. Dr. Bowen has been NOTHING but cooperative with the Utah Alliance an Save the Salt.

Please understand that I do not have time to answer every question from the LSR community, but I DO INTEND to be ready for nay questions from members of the US Congress and staff as we press forward with legislation to effect restorative change."

And that legislation;
How is it coming along?

Sam
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Toolman on July 01, 2016, 06:43:58 PM
Has anyone been able to look at the contract the potash company has with the BLM to see wether their is a clause to return the processed salt back to the flats? If there is, we need to get to get the goverment officals involved. If there isn't, we still need to get our goverment leaders involved. The number one man we need to contact is Oren Hatch. Let the legislators in your state to contact Hatch about what is going on.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on July 08, 2016, 11:00:08 AM
If you haven't already seen it, check out the new letter from the UA to the BLM.  It's posted on the home page of this site.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: fordboy628 on July 08, 2016, 02:59:05 PM
If you haven't already seen it, check out the new letter from the UA to the BLM.  It's posted on the home page of this site.

Jon,

It is just: "Bureaucracy as usual"

Bureaucrats get paid the same, whether or not they accomplish anything . . . . . . . .

Why work?   Especially when you can get paid to do . . . . nothing . . . . and are beholden to a:  "Do Nothing Congress".

Reminds me of the 1980's . . . . . .

 :dhorse:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on July 30, 2016, 05:08:10 AM
BLM Launches Investigation into Bonneville Salt Flats Surface Damage

Photos available at:  www.savethesalt.org


EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY

THE UTAH ALLIANCE WEBSITE WILL NO LONGER BE A SOURCE OF OFFICIAL UPDATES AND HAS BEEN SHIFTED TO AN ARCHIVE ONLY RESEARCH TOOL.

WWW.SAVETHESALT.ORG IS NOW THE ONLY WEBSITE WHERE OFFICIAL UPDATES WILL BE POSTED.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: crawford on July 30, 2016, 01:58:26 PM
Well, thank god that, landspeed was out there to insure that the track is being taken care of, but to be honest all she did was to cause more problems than she solved, she is not a very productive member of the racing organizations in the eyes of Wendover, so I don't know why she feels that she have the power to change anything, first you need to be a leader, which she is not, second you at least need to be respected, which is a big question.  So the handling of the snow track on the flats could of handled alot better, but as long as she has any voice things can only get ........well not better!!!!!!       Mike crawford, mayor of Wendover Utah
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Stan Back on July 30, 2016, 04:25:52 PM
She holds herself in high regard, though.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: joea on July 30, 2016, 05:07:06 PM
...lets see...local mining industry significantly impacts the BSF in a NEGATIVE way...local politics
claims otherwise and gets miffed when folks point that out...

local paper last year in Wendover has front page article WHY SW cancelled
with commentary by local politician questioning the SCTA decision...meanwhile salt flooded
and not conducive to an event....

last year Cook Shootout puts out public message showing pics of extensive water and poor
conditions...praising BUB for cancellation of meet...local politician speaks out publicly stating "I cant for the life of me understand why they cancelled the meet...

USFRA produces explanation as to WHY their Test and Tune called off this year...d/t precarious wet fragile
areas near staging areas that very likely in their opinion may be adversely affected by the traffic
of a meet....local politician comes out publicly and says "...I dont understand why the meet cancelled "one only knows"...

representative of ALLIANCE to try to PROTECT AND SAVE the BSF....speaks out about another LOCAL
entity....significantly...adversely effecting the condition of the BSF....

and local politician gets miffed again...

I see a CLEAR pattern.....


ps and YES Mr. Crawford is a TREMENDOUS ASSET to the racing community, we are very fortunate to
have his lifelong assistance in Wendover...THANK YOU Mr. Crawford for all you do and have done for the LSR
community...we are sincerely grateful

but racing and putting on a LSR event takes different set of priorities and responsibilities .....
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Finallygotit on July 30, 2016, 05:13:57 PM
subscribing
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on July 31, 2016, 01:05:20 AM
  Mike, with all due respect, Louise reported facts while You are countering with YOUR opinion as is nothing more than that.  You seem to enjoy stirring the pot as much as helping Us out.  We support You and Your business but We don't necessarily have to.                  Bob
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: jdincau on July 31, 2016, 10:28:32 AM
I would have been nice if LSL had reported as to how in the spirit of mutual cooperation she went to the tow truck company and asked them to modify their behavior instead of just ratting them out to the BLM.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Old Scrambler on July 31, 2016, 12:45:03 PM
...............and however it was that had to be 'rescued' should pay for ALL DAMAGES :dhorse: :dhorse: :dhorse:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on July 31, 2016, 01:17:25 PM
  It must have been of some serious concern to Mike Cook or I cannot imagine why He would have shown it to Her.  Anyone who has even driven a vehicle over 200 mph knows that trying to identify "repaired" or wet spots on the course is nearly impossible at speed and when You go over them it can upset the balance (for lack of a better word) or feel of the vehicle as well as cause overreaction of the driver in the blink of a eye.
  This was a serious transgression of Public Property that could have resulted in injury to others.
  I have met the owner of the Towing Company and Used His services.  He is a nice guy but He has a serious (and possibly legitimate) grudge with the BLM after they billed Him for $6,000. for the damage He did to the Salt when He buried three Tow Trucks while trying to Yard that idiot Coddington's Circus Motorhome out of the Trench.  That is why He now (or at least when He told Me this in 2012) charges $600. minimum to leave the end of the road.
  As for You "Louise Haters", Most of You are like Me; old, grouchy, constipated and seeing too many Doctors. While I will be amongst the first to admit She can be brash, somewhat self serving and out spoken, She was chosen by the Utah Alliance to be their spokesperson to keep pressure on the BLM, Politicians and yes, the Media to help make the Public aware of the ongoing problems involved in saving both Our Race Courses and the National Protected Area useable for all.
  I would ask You bitch'ers one question:  what have each of You done to support Save the Salt and the Utah Alliance (as in money and volunteer work) in the last ten years?
                                                                                          Sincerely, Bob Drury     
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Peter Jack on July 31, 2016, 02:49:17 PM
Bob, you're making way too much sense.  8-) 8-) 8-)

Is it possible to work with the towing company to get a track that minimizes damage to the salt? In a lot of cases the cleats are a bolt on item that could be replaced with something less severe. Those machines are used for lots of different purposes under different conditions and over different types of terrain. In many cases the surface is ecologically sensitive. There's likely something that would do the job with less damage but taking an overly aggressive approach to the problem is just going to make a compromise much more difficult. I fear it may have been made somewhat more difficult already.

Pete
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on July 31, 2016, 05:30:57 PM
  The bottom line is that If He knew where He had to get to meant crossing groomed areas He should have crossed before or near the starting lines of the courses which would create the least harm (safety wise).  Like I said in My previous post, He is a nice guy who went out of His way to get me off of the road...yes the road (no shoulder there) and from my stand point provides a service that We need.  He just needs a set of rules, a gps and a copy of the coordinates of the current courses.  If it is a non-official vehicle then He should drive over it and drag the carcass further out and leave it.  I will pay the first $100. for that resolution.     Bob
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: azterry on July 31, 2016, 07:21:35 PM
A story, regarding the infamous Snow Cat, from the Salt Biscuit Team. I think it was during Speed week 2011 and we
had our bike in impound waiting for a back up run. During the night there was a whopper of a rainstorm which soaked
the Bend in the Road camping area. We found that, early in the morning, the mud was so greasy that our 30 foot MH
with a two axle trailer was totally stuck - just couldn't move. So we called Salt Flats towing and they easily extracted our
complete rig with the Snow Cat. That was the good part - the not so good part was that the service charge was $900.
The moral of the story is - keep your money and don't park where you will be caught in the mud when you need to
hurry to impound.
AZTerry
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: crawford on August 02, 2016, 10:49:43 PM
  Mike, with all due respect, Louise reported facts while You are countering with YOUR opinion as is nothing more than that.  You seem to enjoy stirring the pot as much as helping Us out.  We support You and Your business but We don't necessarily have to.                  Bob
one suggestion don't, Bob. really don't care doing just fine without your business, and yes I mean that.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on August 02, 2016, 11:41:54 PM
  No skin off My ass either Mike.  It's a three hour round trip into Keystone Automotive and They Always Have It.  With your "take it or leave it" attitude and Your constant dismissal of any evidence contrary to research by others (and Yes You were right about this Year so far but one thirty minute thunderstorm may change that at any time)
but I wonder how much support You are losing for the Museum with Your pompous attitude.  You have made Your bed, now You sleep in it.
                                                                                                Sincerely, Bob
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: rouse on August 03, 2016, 09:04:54 AM
  We support You and Your business but We don't necessarily have to.                  Bob

[/quote] one suggestion don't, Bob. really don't care doing just fine without your business, and yes I mean that.
[/quote]

WOW!

Rouse
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on August 03, 2016, 09:48:29 AM
Guys, guys, please -- internecine tantrums won't help any of us in anything other than stress relief.  If we're cranky at one another now -- how're we gonna keep a civil mood going when we are all in Wendover at once?

See you on the salt.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: SPARKY on August 03, 2016, 12:10:24 PM
SSS   HEAR yee   :cheers: Hear yee  :cheers: hear yee  :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: gnomenator on August 03, 2016, 12:58:34 PM
SSS, what exactly IS a 'internecine tantrum' ?  :-D  You are right on , we need to pull together and concentrate on the important stuff>>   The BSF and Lord willin' the upcoming events!  By the way , thanks for hosting this forum, it is a great place to keep up to date and get so really good advice. I'll be putting together a little  stipend to send your way as soon as the gov let's go with some of my SS ' entitlement'   Safe , fun season to all !!  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Seldom Seen Slim on August 03, 2016, 01:10:59 PM
Gnome said:  "...what exactly IS a 'internecine tantrum' ..."

See page 697 of the Oxford American College Dictionary that's sitting right here on the desk.  That'll get you "internecine".  Tantrum -- you're on your own for that one.

Another phrase could be destructive sibling rivalry - in a manner of thinking.  Does that help?  Whatever -- thanks for thinking of me.  In my case the check arrives on the third Wednesday. :cry:
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on August 03, 2016, 02:59:14 PM
  I have reread what I previously posted on this subject several times and didn't see or understand Mikes retribution (?) but I guess it's one more thing I can add to My resume... I have been officially kicked out of a Auto Parts Store... and without even being there! 
  Up until now I only had a half a dozen or so Bar's, one Restaurant, and......... maybe a Algebra class or two, oh,  and the University of Oregon disinvite Me from returning.  It didn't work with Uncle Sam however.
  The whole thing is ubsurd.  I have now reread His response at least ten times and I am still left shaking My Head.  We all need to stop watching Politics on T.V.
                                              Bob Drury (and no, I am not mad at Mike or anyone who feels my "disbarment" was deserved).
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Speed Limit 1000 on August 03, 2016, 03:14:55 PM
 :-D
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: joea on August 03, 2016, 03:55:10 PM
Not long ago I shared some facts here regarding BSF care and condition

And this entity referred to me as "....
..""you are one of those special racers US locals call special!"

It meant a lot to me to be validated ...

seriously though this dialogue helps in understanding some the political climate..
that is important in moving forward...

As the political avenue is where progress will need to be fostered

We can hope that strong leadership emerges
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: DallasV on August 03, 2016, 05:56:55 PM
Back to what started this, the snow cat. IMHO it is a necessary evil. The problem lies with idiots getting stuck out on the salt. The snow cat driver provides a service and probably doesn't know where they should or shouldn't cross and shouldn't be criticized too harshly. If there are no cars to yank out he doesn't ever get on the salt. Look to the root cause to eliminate a problem.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: RichFox on August 03, 2016, 06:27:59 PM
Absolute truth. A snow cat is probably the least destructive thing you can reasonably expect the tow service to supply. Do you think he should get a heavy lift helicopter? Blame the stuck dumbbell. Not the guy who removes him.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: hotrod on August 03, 2016, 06:54:03 PM
Might be worth while for the racing groups to send him a courtesy map of where they are laying out courses since it changes a bit from year to year so he has a clear reference of those paths which would likely put the course safety in jeopardy.

Having worked on a tow truck years ago, it is a challenge sometimes to figure out the least damaging way to approach a stuck car without getting yourself stuck too.
As all such business he also has to consider wear and tear on his track and time, so unless told otherwise would want to take the most direct route out to the stranded vehicle.

I'm sure he would appreciate a good faith effort to help him avoid unintentionally trashing a critical part of the course, if the BLM were brought into this without first discussing the issue with the tow operator that would be poor sportsmanship. I of course don't know all the back story so if that discussion has happened several times in the past and in spite of that the tow operator disregarded damage to the courses then that would be a different issue.

A little consideration and professional courtesy goes a long way and we should not go out of our way to step on people's toes if it is not necessary.

Same goes for Mike Crawford due to his position in the community he has pressures he has to consider that outsiders do not. He after all has to live there in the off season, and he needs to seek the best solution for the town as well as the racers. Serving the needs of totally different groups can get very complicated and we need to understand that reality and not unnecessarily put him in a no win situation.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: salt27 on August 03, 2016, 07:00:24 PM
Back to what started this, the snow cat. IMHO it is a necessary evil. The problem lies with idiots getting stuck out on the salt. The snow cat driver provides a service and probably doesn't know where they should or shouldn't cross and shouldn't be criticized too harshly. If there are no cars to yank out he doesn't ever get on the salt. Look to the root cause to eliminate a problem.

Exactly, and forbid that no one will offer this service when needed.

 Don
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: joea on August 03, 2016, 07:45:18 PM
problem now is that the salt is much more fragile than ever before

and even folks that are not idiots can get stuck

also folks that are simply not aware of the environment are going to
get out there from time to time and get stuck

folks running a rescue service with a vehicle that destroys fragile salt
would hopefully understand that tracks/courses that have been painstakingly prepped and dragged could be avoided

coming up with a good safe course isnt what it used to be, and mishaps are propagated
by trenches and soft spots etc

how many cars and possibly more so "two wheeled" machines having poor outcomes d/t bad sections will it take

decades of mismanagement has enabled what we have today
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: DallasV on August 03, 2016, 08:13:55 PM
problem now is that the salt is much more fragile than ever before

and even folks that are not idiots can get stuck

also folks that are simply not aware of the environment are going to
get out there from time to time and get stuck

folks running a rescue service with a vehicle that destroys fragile salt
would hopefully understand that tracks/courses that have been painstakingly prepped and dragged could be avoided

coming up with a good safe course isnt what it used to be, and mishaps are propagated
by trenches and soft spots etc

how many cars and possibly more so "two wheeled" machines having poor outcomes d/t bad sections will it take

decades of mismanagement has enabled what we have today

Ah, Joe takes it down to the true root cause. What I was trying to get at was the original post was to crucify this cat driver when we don't know the facts. maybe the only way to get to where he was going without getting the cat stuck was to cross the course. I would also hope he took the most prudent approach. Regardless of resource mismanagement or the car owners not knowing what they are doing, someone needs to yank those cars off the salt. Hopefully they do that as gingerly as possible.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Bob Drury on August 03, 2016, 09:37:14 PM
  Dallas and Hot Rod, that is precisely what I said in My second post.  If He Had a g.p.s. and was aware of the course layout He would at least know where not to cross.
But then again, whom ever drove out there probably thought they were near Salt Lake City.  Too bad He doesn't have a Chinook (?) Heavy Lift Helicopter.
  Marlo could probably get Him one as the Hangers next to Him are Columbia Helicopters in Aurora, Oregon.
  If memory serves, after the Coddington Circus gave up and abandoned their bus for the night someone (Roy Creel maybe?) saw headlights headed for no mans land and had to chase them down or organize a search party for the next day.  Too bad He didn't let them keep going...........
  Seriously, it hopefully is a learning experience that should be shared between Mike Cook, the USFRA and BNI and they need to sit down with The Tow Truck owner and maybe the local Search and Rescue who might have something similar.  I wonder if the weather station gets live satellite pictures because if they did they could possibly pass the exact coordinates to who ever needs them.  Trying to find someone on the Salt  has got to be like finding the last flea on a dog.
                                                                                                                    Bob
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: velocity on August 06, 2016, 12:56:49 AM
EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
[/color]

THE UTAH ALLIANCE WEBSITE WILL NO LONGER BE UPDATED AND CONTINUES AS AN ARCHIVE ONLY RESEARCH TOOL.

THE ONLY SOURCE OF OFFICIAL INFORMATION CONCERNING THE RESTORATION OF THE BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS IS:

WWW.SAVETHESALT.ORG

THIS IS NOW THE ONLY WEBSITE WHERE OFFICIAL UPDATES WILL BE POSTED.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONTINUING SUPPORT.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: Peter Jack on August 06, 2016, 05:23:44 AM
Does this mean that the Utah Alliance has been disbanded or has it been amalgamated with Save the Salt. The latter would make sense as the goals of both organizations is the same?

Pete
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: crawford on August 06, 2016, 07:16:13 PM
  No skin off My Acura either Mike.  It's a three hour round trip into Keystone Automotive and They Always Have It.  With your "take it or leave it" attitude and Your constant dismissal of any evidence contrary to research by others (and Yes You were right about this Year so far but one thirty minute thunderstorm may change that at any time)
but I wonder how much support You are losing for the Museum with Your pompous attitude.  You have made Your bed, now You sleep in it.
                                                                                                Sincerely, Bob
Wow! you lost me acura, but anyway, its funny you should mention the Museum, Im doing that for Wendover, they need it, the Salt flats history needs to be told and what better place than in a Wendover Museum. But anyway that must be my pompous attitude breaking through, because everyone knows that I make one heck of a bed! Oh and by the way do you race, really havent even heard of you BOB.
Title: Re: UTAH ALLIANCE
Post by: joea on August 06, 2016, 08:49:41 PM
this has been very "revealing" and educational

Mike...sincerely wishing you a great SW and rest of the summer..

Louise thank you for updates on where the SaveTheSalt updates will
be posted