Author Topic: North American Eagle  (Read 18287 times)

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Offline PorkPie

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2007, 01:35:56 PM »
Autsch...........who ever done the modification on the former Spirit of America Sonic Arrow, has no idea how the body shape of a ground based vehicle had to be.......why can aeroplane aerodynamics keep there finger away from "cars"...................
Pork Pie

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Blue

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Re: Fossett LSR redesign
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2007, 02:25:29 AM »
Just FYI, Craig LOVES the modifications and is convinced that they are all the right way to go and far superior to the previous choices in those areas.  The original design had lots of good points, and we kept those as anyone can see.  The changes were to the areas that needed it.  I was Craig's choice to bring this program forward, even before it was sold to Steve.

OK, so it's less "stylish" than it used to be.  Form follows function.  6 fatal flaws were found and fixed, all were traced to a need for more engineering detail and analysis.  The first program was pressed for time and funds.  Ten years has brought a lot of knowledge and a little bit of money (less than everyone thinks).  Every change from the previous configuration was made to reduce drag, increase stability and control, and improve simplicity and safety.  The money spent is significant, but it's dwarfed by some of the wheel driven LSR efforts and a lot less than what the last 5 attempts cost in adjusted dollars.

Anyone who talks to me or anyone on the program knows within seconds that we have the utmost respect for ALL of the LSR efforts at every level.  My personal favorites are the lowest displacement records, like the 50 cc to half liter streamliners.  Two top wheel driven record pursuers have been reviewing our program and advising us for nearly a year.

Anyone can do the math and understand the mechanics of making a traction-based car go 300 mph on 1000 HP using down force in 200 psf air (pounds per square foot dynamic pressure) are completely different from making a stable and controllable thrust-based vehicle go 1000 mph on 20,000 HP in 2000 psf air.  At low speeds (relative) and high traction requirements, downforce trumps stability.  At speeds that are literally 10 times the stress, stability trumps everything.

Yes, the Fossett program is run mostly by aero people;  they happen to also have other experience.  The crew also includes 6 motorcycle racers, 2 car racers, one 4 time hydro champion, and one motorcycle LSR crew member.  From Sonic 1 forward, every Absolute LSR has been set by a car designed by people who were rocket scientists first, car people second.

The car was originally designed to go 700 with the chance of going supersonic if enough could be learned from the data.  A formal engineering analysis showed the car to be capable of over 1000 mph with proper aerodynamic and structural modifications.  We're about 75% of the way through those mods.  While we're sure to hear lots of opinions before (and potentially after) any record attempts, only time will truly tell.

Eric Ahlstrom
Program Manager
Fossett LSR

Offline Marcroux

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2007, 03:29:31 AM »
The Mistake was so clear that I never saw a reason to correct them!!!!!!!!!
 Porkpie,
 Cobb was 60 years ago, the Summer brothers and Donald Campbell were 40. We needed to say something about this so the kids knew the truth and not have a mess up sense of history because of a poorly research magazine article. :-D

landracing

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2007, 09:11:54 AM »
Eric,

I really want to thank you for coming onboard and posting something about the project. It does mean alot to the community. Great information and I hope to see more in the future.

You guys are doing it, while others only dream about it. Right or wrong in peoples minds doesnt matter, what does matter is you guys are moving forward with the project.

Jon

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Fossett LSR redesign
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2007, 01:08:59 PM »
  From Sonic 1 forward, every Absolute LSR has been set by a car designed by people who were rocket scientists first, car people second.

Eric Ahlstrom
Program Manager
Fossett LSR

?????

Let us start with the SoA Three Wheeler - the base is nothing other as a F 80 with modified air takes to the 60's experience on aerodynamic.
Green Monster - Art Arfons idea - a dragster driver and builder - design by the size of the space on the modified school bus - Art runs with his family a mill in Ohio.....
SoA Sonic 1 - it was an attempt to follow the NASA "Coke bottle Rule" and it works with some trouble.....and it was not done by an aeroplane aerodynamics - I know the person who was in the windtunnel personately.
Blue Flame - who was there a aeroplane aerodynamics???
Thrust II - John Ackroyd was a car designer and worked at Porsche when he picked the job as the design leader for this car.
Thrust SSC - this one was by a cruise missile designer - Ron Ayers - and the reality at the playa showed some different to the rocket sledge tests....due to this that there was no ground.....
Wingfoot Express I and II - the one was by a engineer - Tom Green - but he had nothing to do with aeroplanes -
the II was Walt Arfons idea - he had nothing to do with aeroplanes - like his brother Art a dragster driver and builder.
SMI Motivator and the three Budweiser Rocket cars - Bill Frederick - a former butcher...


Ooops
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 01:47:18 PM by PorkPie »
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline Larry C

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2007, 01:37:04 PM »
John, how right you are, they are doing it, and it is great to see the project continuing on. Eric, thanks for the information on the project, is there a web site where we can stay tuned to your progress?

Offline PorkPie

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2007, 01:53:38 PM »
For sure, it was great that Steve Fossett brought Craig Breedlove's project back from the retirement...and it was his luck that there was a 98 % finish racer available which shows before his potential.
There are a lot of people who like to do a so project, unfortunately stand the word money as the biggest blocker between....and see....a Craig Breedlove couldn't get enough sponsors to keep his project alive.....
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 03:28:40 PM by PorkPie »
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline Dave Haller

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2007, 02:43:46 PM »
I had the pleasure of meeting Ed back in 1994 out at the salt when I pitted next to him. Great guy and good friend. His tenacity with this project is legendary. He does not give up. We had a great visit sitting in the casino at Speedweek. He updated me on the project, the dissapointments, the challenges and of course lack of funding but he still never gives up. We all need to support his efforts with ecouragement and leads to potential sponsors when they come up. I work close enought to his home to pay a visit once in a while and am always glad to see him and some of the crew. I was able to help out at the start of the project but my own goals on the salt and work loads have gotten in the way. All the best to him and the crew on this trip.
Dave Haller #93

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2007, 09:30:53 PM »
any updates?

Robin UK

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2007, 10:43:08 AM »
While I have the greatest respect for the breadth and depth of Pork Pie's LSR knowledge, I find his responses to Eric a trifle harsh. Maybe something was lost in translation, but Eric clearly said that absolute record holders from Sonic1 onwards (which for me means Blue Flame, ThrustII and ThrustSSC) were designed by people who were rocket scientists first. While the other cars mentioned by Pork Pie in one of his replies were interesting observations, some predate Sonic 1 while none of the others succeeded in taking the record so they are not covered by Eric's statement.

It's true that Craig favoured empirical development of basic principles rather than relying on detailed aero research (as he often said, bad aero data is worse than no aero data) but even back with Sonic1, he was talking to people and applying aviation aero principles such as area ruling and boundary layer control. And of course, as Eric has already told us, he (presumably because of his aviation background) was Craig's choice to give Sonic Arrow a make-over even before it was sold to Steve Fossett. But let's get back to the 3 cars that are covered by Eric's statement.

Pork Pie asks who had a background in "aeroplane aerodynamics" on the Blue Flame project. Without wishing to be pedantic, Eric said rocket scientist. The project was initiated by Ray Dausman and Dick Keller. I happen to know Dick reasonably well and can tell you that after being fascinated by rocket cars (RAK2 in particular) from an early age, he graduated from Notre Dame and Illinois State University before applying his skills to fundamental and applied research projects for a whole range of people including the US Air Force and NASA. His work covered missiles, satellites and the Saturn rockets. He also carried out a detailed study of gas reactions of methane and oxygen. Mmm - sounds like a rocket scientist to me!  His partner Ray Dausman had an equally skilled background and both were joined later by Pete Farnsworth. Dick's role was to coordinate the aerodynamic research and design with Dr Todz and Dr Uzgiri from IIT with additional help from Ohio State University. All designs involve compromises of one kind or another but as Eric says, form should follow function. In the case of Blue Flame, the design evolved quite a bit based on some of the building blocks they started with (tyres - oh, ok, tires and the motor for instance). There were even early iterations of the design using a jet engine although given their 'rocket scientist' background, this was always the way they were destined to go.

I know that John Ackroyd wouldn't describe himself as a rocket scientist but to simply say that he went from Porsche to ThrustII makes light of his previous wide ranging and detailed engineering background which included spells with Cushioncraft on hovercraft design, and Dornier on the very early stages of what was to became the first Airbus. The team included others with a military aviation background and was supported by wind tunnel aero research from British Aerospace. However, the basic design was determined to some extent by the major building block - the engine. This was the only engine powerful enough that Richard could get hold of given his complete lack of funding, so that was where John had to start.

ThrustSSC was in a different league altogether, and I can assure you that given the forces, stresses and strains involved (which are truly staggering to the average car guy at or around Mach1 and beyond) then anybody who tries to go faster than that without either detailed research or input from leading specialists in every area of the vehicle is taking a risk that I wouldn't care to be involved with. Since Sunbeam first put an aero engine in an LSR car back in 1922, there has always been a cross over from aviation to record breaking (and other forms of racing) but in my humble opinion, the key inputs of skills, background and facilities needed to go faster than SSC are likely to come from an aviation background. 

This is not a criticism of Craig in any way, but SoA Sonic Arrow in 1997 form was, if you like, the last of the ultimate LSR hot rods built around one man's constantly evolving wealth of knowlege and experience. You can argue until you're blue in face about whether or not it would have got the record with a bit more luck.  The fact is that it didn't. Eric and the other aviation aero people tell us that they uncovered 6 potentially fatal flaws. If he means that literally rather than figuratively, then we should all be grateful that Craig's problems stopped him when they did. When Art Arfons saw SSC at Fontwell and then at Black Rock, he got it right when he said that it had taken the LSR well beyond the reach of anything the hot rodding approach could achieve. Which is why Bonneville racing and all it stands for is so important.  But that's another story.


Robin

« Last Edit: October 19, 2007, 11:09:57 AM by Robin UK »

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2007, 10:53:28 AM »
Last para but one typo correction in previous post - 1922 not 1992

Robin

Offline Stainless1

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2007, 10:56:28 AM »
Hey Robin, you can go in and edit your own post, use the modify button
Stainless
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Robin UK

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2007, 11:13:07 AM »
Thanks Stainless - done

Robin

Offline PorkPie

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Re: North American Eagle
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2007, 02:14:32 PM »
Robin - I TALKED FROM AEROPLANE AERODYNAMICS...................

and by the way..........what helps rocket scientist????
« Last Edit: October 20, 2007, 03:47:53 AM by PorkPie »
Pork Pie

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Re: Fossett LSR redesign
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2007, 04:04:12 PM »
Thank you Robin, I couldn't have said it better.

A web site will be up in the next couple of months and will detail what we've done and why.

98% complete?  Must have been the other car...  In fairness to Craig, he believed it to be ready to go with about a 25% rebuild and a full re-assembly.  In reality, the scope of work was about triple that.  Still much, much faster than starting from scratch and even the things we did not use or re-design gave us important data.

Time, and knowledge, march on.  It's been 10 years, add more people, time and money and better things can emerge in any project.  IM<HO, the first SOA was a state-of-the-art point in history, Sonic 1 a good rush job,  Blue Flame was another state-of-the-art point, Thrust 2 was the best of the flat bottom cars, Thrust SSC made it on brute force and enough technology to survive.  Even with mods, the Fossett LSR will be state-of-the-art in specific areas and not overall.  That would take a new car.