Blower in a bottle?

[John Beckett]

 So is it now 'the view' that if it has a spark ignition motor with turbine fitted in the exhaust but geared to the crank, then the only class for this 'turbine' motor is special construction?
 

Malcolm
 
 Still sounds like two engines in the vehicle to me, also at least one of them is a Turbine, hence the Special Construction moniker.
 
 JB

[Malcolm UK]

I am off to the book to see what the definition of an engine is now, John! (LOL)  
 
 I feel sure that the rule makers have me beaten on this one .... so .... if it has to be special construction, I think I will just have to forget Comp Coupe and throw RR turbines (plural) at a different shape.  Now where are those 500/600 mph tires? Could I afford it!? - probably not until the lottery win comes my way, I wish.
 
 From 1999 experience, I would not anticipate that an unlimited design would suit Bonneville and the salt, so no SCTA/BNI International LSR record bid either ...... (another thread or two introduced without even mentioning traction control).  See you next month on the Maxton Mile.

[Malcolm UK]

"Turbine"
 
 Was I misled by the one view that, if you produce energy by a turbine blade and drive the wheels (even if it may sit on the side of a conventional engine block that is producing hot gases and power) then we are describing to US rules a turbine power unit vehicle?  Turbine power units only being allowed in special construction was where I moved into body class.  Am I correct that turbines power units are not allowed in Comp Coupe?  
 
 'Turbo compounding' is a blown classification according to the 'book' that could apply to any modified body class, but where is this technique defined and the limits if any set.  
 
 I was once told that the ultimate expression of a 'turbo compound motor' would look like a gas turbine with a small spark ignition cylinder motor strapped to it.  As you say Rich, probably another kettle of fish or worm can.
 
 I do not suggest that this Brit or any Brits have a unique problem, because the SCTA/BNI hosts many nations each year, including my countrymen (prob never yet a British woman) - but those racers may not have had innovative combustion systems and exhausts in their cars .... or chopped the bodyshape I had planned to use .... or worried about how N2O ever became a 'fuel'!
 
 Have a great easter break everyone.
 
 ps Language differences - what happens when it comes to "lighting up a fag .....?"

[Sumner]

but those racers may not have had innovative combustion systems and exhausts in their cars .... or chopped the bodyshape I had planned to use .... or worried about how N2O ever became a 'fuel'!
   

You could probably do all of the above and more and still run on the salt as long as you meet the safety requirements for the speeds you are running.  You would just have to run for "time only".  What is wrong with that?  You would have the satisfation of knowing if your ideas worked as you anticipated.  Since no one else would have a car like yours to compare accomplishments with you will have to decide if you have exceeded your personal goals.  Me, I like to do that all the time.
 
 I want to run my truck sometime, but since it is sectioned it won't fit any class.  I'll run time only and be very happy to do so and be thankful that a lot of people put a lot of their time into running the event and making that possible.
 
 I don't expect them to create a class for my combination.  I'll build my lakester for that. They do appear to have created a lot of classes over the years when there has been enough vehicles to justify it.
 
 Have fun at Maxton and hope to meet you at B'ville one of these days,
 
 Sum

[RichFox]

John and Malcolm- One of the mother country's better products is Janes All The Worlds Aircraft. If you can find a 1948 copy it has the Wright Turbo Compound engine discribed and pictured. A turbo charger turbine is no more an engine than an exhaust recovery turbine. A turbocharger conected to it's compresor and with a burner section would be an engine. A roots blower driven by a pony engine blowing into the main drive engine would be a twin engine entry

[John Beckett]

A turbo charger turbine is no more an engine than an exhaust recovery turbine. A turbocharger conected to it's compresor and with a burner section would be an engine. A roots blower driven by a pony engine blowing into the main drive engine would be a twin engine entry

Rich
 
 It was my understanding that Malcolm was going to drive the wheels through his turbocharger, which would then be two engines.
 
 JB

[JackD]

He was going to drive the wheels with a turbine.
 That is different than a turbo charger that drives the charge.
 Boosting the exhaust energy with approved fuels is in common use. What you use it for and what  you fuel it with makes the difference.
 Exhaust whistles made you cool and flames made you hot, but faster is still under development.
 Someday Malcolm will show us.

[RichFox]

John; Since the gas generator for Mal's turbine is his core engine how can it be "the other engine?" It's either a piston engine with turbine exhaust recovery units, or it's a gas turbine in which the gas generator is also geared into the output shaft. How many on thes list have ever seen a turbo compound engine? The only ones I ever saw were at work almost 40 years ago. Dan Warriner--Since you guys wouldn't let me be Vintage Engine Chair, can I be Turbocompound Chair?

[JackD]

I see that as a real solution.
 They deserve each other.
 SFO is the World HQ of the exhaust whistle.

[John Beckett]

Rich
 
 I think I missed the point.
 
 Guess your actually talking about a turbine, basicaly attached to the output shaft of the piston engine, which uses the exhaust gas, from the base engine, to turn the turbine. No combustion going on here, right. Single engine. Can put it in any car other than production?
 
 Now since there is actually a turbine that is providing some power is it still a piston engine? Or does it fall into the turbine engine class?
 
 JB

[RichFox]

John exactly. Now we go back to the begining of this debate and rule 4FF. A turbo compound engine will for the purpose of classification be considered as blown. I am paraphrasing. Read rule 4FF for the actual wording, but I do have the meaning right. Again I have never seen one of these units at Bonneville or anywhere except on a C-W 3350. Is someone really planning to run one or is this strictly a debating exercise?

[Sumner]

I'm wondering how much hp a turbine could extract from say a 500 hp motor's exhaust and then transmit to the drivetrain of said car?
 
 I know that there is enough power generated by the turbine side of a turbo to power the compressor on a turbo.  The real gain there is the increase air/fuel charge now going into the motor under boost from the compressor side of the turbo.  That air/fuel increase can produce way more hp than the power the turbine side of the turbo is making to power the compressor.
 
 A turbo motor gives up some hp due to the restriction on the exhaust side, but there again that is more than offset with the increased fuel/air now entering the motor.
 
 So my gut feeling is that if you have a turbine in the exhaust powered only by the exhaust gasses, no added fuel, I can't imagine it adding much more power to drive the car after transmission losses, and restrictive exhaust losses.
 
 So back to my original question, how much more usable hp to drive the car would this setup produce?
 
 c ya, Sum
 
  <small>[ March 24, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Sumner ]</small>

[JackD]

To better ubderstand it you could take the exhaust energy from a 2000cc piston motor and add the required fuel (JP-4) with air mix (N2O) and run it into Vesco's turbine car.
 Would you have a really peppy 2L piston engined entry or a turbine ?
 If you ran the final exhaust out the back would it be SP/ST/ST/S ?
 (Sorta Piston/Sorta Turbine/ Sorta Thrust/ Streamliner)

[John Beckett]

OK Rich, so now if I can create some extra gas expansion this thing might actually make enough extra HP to justify building the whole thing in the first place.
 
 Like Sum, I'm just wondering if it would be as beneficial as a proper turbocharger would be?
 
 JB

[JackD]

Pray for them.