Tire needs, Help is coming soon

[joea]

the roadracing tire tester and rep I spoke with explained that current GP roadrace tires have skin/tread thickness that varies over the profile of the tire, dependent on track application,  ie a Daytona tire is thinner in the center and a tighter track with thinner tread
 on outer aspect of tire.........
 
 now with shaving mandated to gain speed certification.......I see serious potential issues........
 
 ie shaving a tire that is already engineered to offer high speed safety.......shaving by some "notable" business(s) is also suspect by many, as some of these guys have their own philospy of shaving the profile NOT uniform to allow for growth etc, this has born out to be less than desired in some cases.......leading me to NOT want to be governed/mandated to utilize only certain business's for legal shaving......plus I dont want to shave certain roadrace tires,  but may be mandated to to be able to run..........all this and the best case
 is that we will have the overwhelming success that we already enjoy...........
 
 how can a sanctiioning body hope to garner a better safety record than is already in existence, ie NO known tire failures on bikes over 230 mph with even unshaven ZR radials.......
 
 the only undue tire issues I have seen were on 200 to 216 or so mph and even 180's and 190's......with softer(poor term) compounds (actually firmer(poor term) than what is often on road race tires)......any tire can be abused to a point of insufficient heat shedding ability and blistering and chunking........many of the folks going over 220 seem to utilize the street compound ZR's and they have performed outstanding
 
 what are we to gain by turning away from track record of 100% success rate at Bonn. (sit on bikes over 230 on street compound ZR radials)?
 
 
 from what I garnered from a racing tire/rep/tester    the best case is to run tires
 without limitation to brand and or intended application,  and carefully monitor tires after
 runs,   this is precisely what the SCTA has been
 doing...........VERY admirable
 
 and what can the tire manufactures tell us about their tire testing on the salt?
 
 Joe  

[Seldom Seen Slim]

I sure do like having this discussion in January.  Lots of time to have a sleepless night or two, lots of time to find a different tire if that's what it's gonna take.
 
 I've sent a fax to a tire vendor and an email to Tom Evans about the rule.  ((AND, for what it's worth, the email just came bouncing back a couple of seconds ago -- Tom's account is "over quota"!)).
 
 I'm hoping to come up with a definitive answer on what tires the 200+ bikes will need for '05, and will let you all know as soon as I hear something.  I hope you'll pass the word along, too.
 
 Your question in the above post, Jonathon, is direct -- sure hope it gets a direct resonse, even if it's NO -- then at least we'll know that we need to do something.
 
 Jon, going home to shovel snow off the deck so I can get to the grill to make supper.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Hey, Scott -- you've ridden Rich Yancy's bike, haven't you?  What tires does he run?
 
 Jon

[yamagamma]

The "new shaved roadrace tire only"for 200+ runs raises concern. First I recall a few years ago a competitor on a ZX12 tried a Daytona spec Dunlop race tire given to him by a well known Dunlop race rep. It shredded badly after only one run, he went back to his Metzeler street tires and had no  further problems. Second concern is the very act of shaving a properly manufactured tire by just anyone armed with a file,grinder etc. should be sending off alarm signals. Are we going to allow anyone on the planet to attempt to modify their own tires?? No experience necessary, just have a go at it lads. Knock off 50% of the tread in any fashion you like and you are legal. Is this stupid or what? I would be far happier just running a ZR tire unmodified in any way and careful monitoring after each run. As Joe say's, this hasn't been a problem, so why create one with the potential for catastrophic results.
 Yamagamma

[John Noonan]

At the start of the 2003 land speed racing season Wink Eller asked if I would install and assist in the documentation of what heat the tires see during and after a top speed run, I said yes whenever you are ready, the tires when I make the run are cool to the touch and do not see the same heat and problems that a road race style tire will.
  Wink never got me the instrumentation to install for the test after repeated offers to assist in the tire development for SCTA-BNI riders.
 I have been 230+ mph dozens of times on two surfaces (Salt and Dirt) 240+ mph more than I can count and over 253+ mph once..so please let me add my .002
 
 The street style tires have more tread and are less prone to damage from running over something where as a thinner road race tire that has been shaved is going to go south much quicker.
 
 I as others have found that the race style tires (Road Race) absorb the heat and energy faster than the touring and street tires and seem more susceptible to damage from either picking up "debris" on the course or from coming apart at speed..I hope that all of the valuable information gained in the last few years is not wasted by a rule that makes no sense.
 
 One more thing to consider why is it that the rules are being made by people (riders?) that are not racing themselves..this is where ECTA riders have the advantage and make rules that are better and more founded...
 
 J

[joea]

John, I am really glad that you offer your opinion here,  it means alot to many of us did you shave your ZR Radials??, the ones that DOZENS of runs with average speed OVER 240 for MULTIPLE miles, and MULTIPLE back to back to back miles of sustained 250+ mph.......
 
 this type of thread/data base is priceless in its
 potential for informed decision making.........
 
 Mr. or Mrs. Minonno,  are you out there??
 could you share your experiences with the Goodyear landspeed tires???namely the landspeed Goodyear tires that were showing signs
 of coming apart at speeds over 230 mph.........
 
 and also (Minonno's) could you share some info regarding your relationship with a major tire manufacturer that spec'd UNSHAVEN ZR RADIALS for you to
 use on the salt, and how they looked like new after many 220+mph runs??
 
 Joe  

[joea]

Mr. Guthrie,  I sincerely hope that YOU OF ALL PEOPLE could share your views on the topic of tires on bikes at Bonneville!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 we cannot afford to NOT have your input,  your  experiences on the salt are vital to this topic
 
 many of us give you hell about various issues,  NONE of us have the miles of experience you have on the salt
 
 please step up, I know you are keenly involved in pavement speed pursuits, but your knowledge base about salty issues is needed, big time....
 
 ps. how much did you  have to shave a tire made from stone, and did it groove the salt?        
 
 this topic is not limited to folks who have gone over 100mph on the salt
 
 Scott there might be a couple people who have recently gone faster than some of your pursuits
 years ago, but not likely any who are more informed about failure modes and analysis
 
 Joe  

[Larry Forstall]

First let me say that I hold in high regard the SCTA motorcycle inspectors for their diligence during inspections. They have asked for our imput about tires and those above 230 have all supported the use of hard street radials with some differences over shaving. What happened? Is it the SCTA auto board who voted to use car tires after all the motorcycle rider imput and strong safety record? Street based bikes (the majority) will be difficult to modify for a 15" car tire and all the factory high speed engineering will go out the window. The cord construction of radial slicks is purposely more flexible for traction on hard surfaces. Flex creates heat and that is the enemy at Bonneville. The Michelin man advises slicks be limited to hard one mile tracks.
     I support all safety changes when they improve safety. This tire rule does not. I hope we can get a ruling to continue as we are with constant monitoring.

[landracing]

All of this discussion is all the same material that we had a few weeks before bonneville last year. Same issues now, still no tires. We went ahead and ran like they have for the past 10+ years, with inspectors checking tires after all 200 mph passes and look what happened, NOTHING... All ran fast, no accidents. There were a few tires that went away or blistered but with strick enforcement of the inspection after all fast passes seems to be the best avenue right now. And has worked well the past few years lets just stick to it.    
 
 Jonathan

[JackD]

The rule needs to follow/lead the practice or the liability will end the sport regardless of the safety record for that item.

[joea]

Dont get discouraged guys and gals,  this type of discourse
 is priceless..........
 
 informed decision making will benefit from this type of banter
 
 Joe  

[1212FBGS]

I have a tire “truing” machine and can shave any motorcycle tire. My attorney is drafting a hold harmless or “cover my ass” agreement and should be ready to shave tires by mid Feb. If interested call
 Kent Riches
 Air Tech
 760-598-3366
 Yours in sport

[ddahlgren]

I would be very careful with that so called hold harmless agreement. By having the agreement drawn up you are already agreeing that in the USA a lot of people get sued. What happens when 'Aunt Minnie' who has not seen her nephew in 10 years starts suffering mental anguish over the loss or injury to her beloved nephew? She never signed anything...
 I am not an attorney but if i were you i might discuss how you can put the tire shaving business into it's own little box so to speak there is nothing to sue for other than what is in that box that does not include your other business or house or whatever like your earnings for the next 20 years..
 You can say it will never happen but in life there are 2 very dangerous words.. Never and always.
 Dave

[JackD]

Imagine the liabily you assume when you make the rules and bless a bike at inspection and somebody gets hurt.
 Their estate may have a different view of your responsibilities.
 An honest effort is the best defence and inattention will eat you.
 To worry about foot peg measurements and ignore tire evolution is an example of that.
 Kent has been in the business a long time. His introduction to LSR when he was a kid was with me. At that meet was a fatality and to make a long story short, I was the first one served in the lawsuit and had nothing to do with the crash or entry beyond the rules that were violated by the victim.

[k.h.]

For shaving tires, it's been recommended to me to first rotate the tire under infra-red light to pre-heat it, to make it "grow" to as "round" as it will be under racing conditions.  Otherwise, if the tire is not fully rounded, the cutting tool will be true, but the amount of rubber cut may be uneven across the tread section of the casing.  Supposedly this reduces the potential for yaw.  
 
 Disclaimer:  I am not a tire engineer nor am I qualified to consult on race tire matters.  The above paragraph is a recollection of an observation of someone else's take on the matter.  That person shall remain nameless.  I, personally, do not endorse the shaving of tires, though I reserve the right to shave tires should my that meet my requirements.