Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: 754 on August 22, 2010, 12:08:38 PM
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I gotta ask , did he ever crack 200mph, that is documented?
We were discussing this on another forum, and I have always thought he never broke 200 on a recorded run. A link was posted to a Indian website claiming he ran 206... :-o
What do you guys think?
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He still holds the 1000cc streamliner record at 183.586 ... A record which is believed to be cursed ... Joe
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He never ran 200 MPH
FREUD
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206 MPH but it wasnt recorded due to a accident reade more here:
http://www.indianmotorbikes.com/features/munro/munro.htm
I agree on the curse also.
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The Wiki-pages Burt Munro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Munro) says
"...The unofficial speed record (officially timed) is 331 km/h (205.67 mph) for a flying mile..."
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George Begg, in "Burt Munro Legend of Speed" page 128 says that in 1966 "Some of the spectators came along later to tell Burt that over the PA speaker, the chief timekeeper, Otto Crocker, said that he was timed at a speed through the 1/4 mile qualifying section at well over 200 mph when he sat up and shut off. Some quoted the figure as high as 212 mph, but this was much later and it was to be the next year before Burt had the chance to ask Otto, who said that he could not remember the actual speed as it had not been written down and it was not eligible for a record. Only those speeds that are sustained over the mile distance are recorded on paper, even though the timing equipment shows the speed at the 1/4 mile distance."
Somewhere in my reading about Burt I recall mention of correspondence between an race official and Burt, and the official confirms that Burt went over 200 mph for a short distance. I cannot locate this in my little library, so I am relying on my sometimes reliable, sometimes not, memory.
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Anything about BM going over 200mph, is "here`say",,,
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the older the story gets the faster he goes.... I know for a fact his record is cursed.... i crashed at 217 qualifing on it
kent
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How many 1000cc streamliners have been built since then?
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Just the one that crashed I know of... :evil:
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I am thinking it would have to be pushrod 1000cc streamliner, to go after that one.Not sure if it has to be a twin, but assume it must be Normally aspirated)
Here is what I think.. What Has been written about the purperted 200mph plus, he never said anything like, it ran like never before, then got hurt, and started sloweing down.
So I am thinking;
Why did it not happen again?
Why, if the 2 way average was under 190mph, would it suddenly have such a huge jump in speed?? I mean , 10-15mph...I could believe..
Back to present time.. A lot on here know how hard it is to crack 200, and how much hp it takes.. what do you guys think...??
I think Burt had really good aero...
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754, just build in a different class and let some of the "folk tales" and mystique of Bonneville remain intact.
There are plenty of streamliner classes.
FREUD
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I don't know about Burt going over 200 but I do know his record is impossible to break, technically. The record was set in 67 at 183.586 mph. in the SF(Streamline fuel) class 1000cc. We all know that Burt's motor was a Indian flathead motor converted to an overhead valve, that was pushrod operated. So technically, his motor was a pushrod motor. And his record can't be broken. You can take his record out of the book if you run SF 1000cc and averaged more than 183.586 in two runs, but you would be running in a non pushrod class. So technically, you wouldn't outrun Burt. If you built a streamlined pushrod fuel bike and went faster than 183.586 for two runs, you still wouldn't beat Burt's record because your record would go in the book in the Pushrod class. Now, Burt's bike was an A bike with a streamline shell, not legal today by any stretch of the imagination, according to the streamline rules. Not even APS. In 1990 SCTA started a Pushrod class and left Burt's record in the non pushrod class, because that is where it was set in 67. The classes set in 1990 were pushrod engine gas (PAG) and pushrod engine fuel (PAF). I think Don Vesco tried to break the record once and I know that Kent Riches had an upset (crashed) on his qualifier once at 217. Probably, the record should be left as is, or retired. Maybe it should have been moved to the Pushrod class in 1990, not sure how that works.
Anyways, just some thoughts.
Willie Buchta
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Willies Statement "Probably, the record should be left as is, or retired. "
I agree Willie.
Maybe it wasn't the intentions of the people that wrote the rules, but they seem to have protected the record.
It's rather like holding Babe Ruth's accomplishments sacred. They have been exceeded but read a 1950 record
book and they are still there.
FREUD
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Any of todays litre superbike engines could kick Burts record out of the ballpark without really trying. I'd like to ask anyone who's thinking of having a shot at the record, will you be proud that you took a brand new DOHC 16 valve 4 cylinder engine and ran faster than a 1920 Indian? Personally I'd be embarrassed to hell to admit something like that.
Leave Burt's record alone. The SCTA has a gazillion classes to choose from. Apart from that, its cursed you'll never do it.
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I agree with everyone, Let the record stand, it's a part of history.
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...the record should stand until its broken....
..the history will never be broken...
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if you want history get the book or rent the DVD.... racing is racing and records are made to be broken.... just don't run on this one
Kent
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It may be history, but it's not a record anymore than Willie Sutton made bank withdrawals.
Or is someone going to suggest that the bike was legal?
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Burt's children in 2006.
FREUD
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Since it is in the books it is a record. It was inspected, made the requisite 3 runs, and has been in the books ever since. Who are you to say different??
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Aren't there about 1800 possible motorcycle records? More if you include FIM and AMA? Just thinkin' there are lots of choices other than Burt's to go for.
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If I recall correctly, in the book, "One Good Run" a couple of officials considered making a dummy time slip (I have no idea how they planned to do that) showing his run over 200 as a gesture of kindness. But they were overruled by the logic that Burt wouldn't want it that way. Bear in mind that I read the book a long time ago and I have a sh1tty memory, so take it for what it's worth.
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There is no record that is "Sacred". Cursed maybe but never sacred. I have no problem beating any record that the SCTA deems worthy of listing in their record book. The rule book is what we go by to break world land speed records. If the SCTA wants to retire the record then no one will get to break it. Make a proposal to the SCTA but as long as it is in the record book I for one have no problem with anyone breaking it under the current rules and really no one should have a problem with breaking it.
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This is an absolutely fascinating subject!.... If the 'liner driven/ridden by Cal rayborn was under 1000cc's.... whaddaya think would have happened to Bert's record way back then?... Ironhead sportster motor and all.... under the rules then....AND NOW.... it would have eclipsed it.....
Now, don't get me wrong.... Bert was and IS a legend.... and about the 200mph plus speed.... I understand that he had done over 200mph more than once at the 2 1/4 mile.... I seem to recollect hearing that over the loudspeaker myself.... but, in those days, quarter mile speeds were not recoe=rded for permanent records.... (although, online now, everything seems to have been recorded and posted somewhere)...
OH and BTW.... Bert's full name was Herbert.... thus the spelling with an "E"..... NOT a "U".... I don't care what the movie- "The World's Fastest Indian" showed at a supposed birthday party at the community center for him....
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OH and BTW.... Bert's full name was Herbert.... thus the spelling with an "E"..... NOT a "U".... I don't care what the movie- "The World's Fastest Indian" showed at a supposed birthday party at the community center for him....
It was Burt himself who substituted the U for the E , he preferred it that way.
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C'est possible.... mais.... Oh .... Back to English.... this is possible.... I do know the=at he entered the Bonneville events in the early 70s as Herbert J Munro though.....
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It was all part of the show business side of Burt.....he was smarter, meaner and a whole lot better known than the portrayal of him in the film would have us believe. Burt wouldn't have paid to have his name changed by deed poll, so he would have had to enter under the name on his I.D. To him it was a more American spelling than the old Brit "Bert" and despite his sometimes ornery aura he was firmly switched on to his movie star appeal....
as Don Francisco wrote in HRM that " Burt Munro from New Zealand whose story could make a script for a movie some day" ....it wasn't accidental.
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It was all part of the show business side of Burt.....he was smarter, meaner and a whole lot better known than the portrayal of him in the film would have us believe. Burt wouldn't have paid to have his name changed by deed poll, so he would have had to enter under the name on his I.D. To him it was a more American spelling than the old Brit "Bert" and despite his sometimes ornery aura he was firmly switched on to his movie star appeal....
as Don Francisco wrote in HRM that " Burt Munro from New Zealand whose story could make a script for a movie some day" ....it wasn't accidental.
Yup, I read that article at least once a month and think of how ironic Dons statement is/was
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Burt's talent impressed me when I saw the movie and I have even more respect for it now. That old Indian could not have produced much power. A lot of his success must have been talent at riding, jetting, choosing gearing, reading the track, streamlining, etc,- the difficult stuff.
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He was a mechanical genius way before his time. If only more of us could have had the chance to learn from him. I like guys like him. That push the boundries and end up with mechanical genius. I just wish more guys were around here like him for me to learn from. Everything I learned I had do by pulling parts and really trying to figure it out. He would have been a great teacher, and the things he did were amazing.
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When Jess Thomas's 500SF record was broken a couple years ago they just moved that bike into the 500SPF class. Still holds the record from 1957.
Only way to get Burt out of the record books is build a vintage pushrod 1000cc streamliner and take all three records. It would take a big pile of money to get that done.
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He was a mechanical genius way before his time. If only more of us could have had the chance to learn from him. I like guys like him. That push the boundries and end up with mechanical genius. I just wish more guys were around here like him for me to learn from. Everything I learned I had do by pulling parts and really trying to figure it out. He would have been a great teacher, and the things he did were amazing.
Doc, if you are looking to meet a guy like that introduce yourself to Jack Costella.... You will find him around the Nebulous pits, probably without the 5050 this year
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NICK ROCK/ #5050 250cc S-F RECORD 198.904 MPH!
TOP SPEED 207 MPH
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...one of the major differences between Burt and Jack is that Burt didnt
go fast enough to get banned.....and Burts vehicle didnt handle as well as Jacks........
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:cheers: lol
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I do not see in the rule book where you can not run a push rod engine in the SC 1000cc class.
If records are going to be retired or made sacred, what will be the criteria? Also every record in the book was set over an existing record or in an "Open Record". Since they just renamed Jess's record, did 7070 run on an "Open Record" when Jack and Cliff ran 230.165?
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But I can't promise to return 5050 to him if the adrenaline rush is high enough. It might dissappear and go in to hiding :P
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...one of the major differences between Burt and Jack is that Burt didnt
go fast enough to get banned.....and Burts vehicle didnt handle as well as Jacks........
Also, Bert was a competitor in an era when, if Jack brought 5050,...... it would NOT have got a "sticker" put on it.....
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...one of the major differences between Burt and Jack is that Burt didnt
go fast enough to get banned.....and Burts vehicle didnt handle as well as Jacks........
As I remember Burt's set up got legislated aside when it couldn't meet new requirements about '72 for a roll bar/cage and fire protection in the streamliner classes.
Please correct me if I'm in error, it's been awhile and I'll admit to my mind getting twisted now and again.
Ed
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If I recall correctly, it was 1973..... he ran the bike as an open frame for a run or two..... I also recall that they gave him the first run of the event honor.
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In 1973 at Bonneville , Sam Pierce, LA Indian dealer and Munro sponsor rode his Harley killer while Burt rode his Indian open wheeled.
Photo courtesy of Pierce family
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1109362/super113.jpg)
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I do not see in the rule book where you can not run a push rod engine in the SC 1000cc class.
If records are going to be retired or made sacred, what will be the criteria? Also every record in the book was set over an existing record or in an "Open Record". Since they just renamed Jess's record, did 7070 run on an "Open Record" when Jack and Cliff ran 230.165?
No 7070 ran on a 50 year old record and did a tremendous job capturing the record. I think the SCTA moved Jess's record to the pushrod class tp pay homage to one of the pioneers of landracing. That is one of the things I like about the SCTA. They are so very much aware of their history and show respect to all that have come racing before us.
You can run a 1000cc pushrod in 1000SF. If you did set the record would they not move the Munroe record to the vintage class? Build bike,set 1000SVF record first. Move to the pushrod class and set record. Bump up to 1000SF and beat Burt's record. He is out of the book. What are the chances of that happening?
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...Records are made to be broken....!!!!!!!
..not saved....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...the "history" will never be broken....
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Burt Monroe's last time on the salt was Speedweek 1971. He had planned to return in 1972, but his health disallowed it. I got to know Burt fairly well over the years (1962 through 1971) I admired his ability to "Make Do" (his much used expression) and accomplish what he did, designing, developing and making his own parts. As much as many would like, he did not officially exceed 200 mph. I don't think anyone could be extremely proud to take his record with the technology of today.
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I don't think anyone could be extremely proud to take his record with the technology of today.
Amen to that! I, for one, wouldn't go around bragging that I broke a 40 year old record held by a 90 year old bike.
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...yeah...Al Teague and or Don Vesco should be ashamed of themselves for
trying to break a Summers brothers record as old as Burts....sheesh...what were they
thinking...?...
...and Bud Fab and Jack Costella should be ashamed of themselves for going after records set in the 1950's set
by some old outdated outfit named NSU.....
....i dare recon that those old record setters want their records to be put aside and protected from challenges...
...they earned their "history"...we can never take that away.....
...records on the other hand....mean nothing without challenges....
...lets celebrate history by passing on stories...hall of fames...gas ups etc....not diluted down the achievements shielding them...
Joe
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A case can be made that the record becomes more valuable as more people try to break it and fail.
That is one of the things that made the Summers Brothers record so important is that it took multiple highly qualified teams/cars 45 years to break the record.
I think you are honoring the record holder by taking your best shot at breaking his/her record. An unchallenged record is not as respected as one that has been challenged many times and still stands.
Although newer technology makes it easier to make power the salt still has its say in the matter, and other issues like good organization, attention do detail, luck with the weather, a favorable temperature and wind situation all are factors in a new record.
Like the 4 minute mile, has become relatively easy to break with modern tracks, track shoes and training methods, but it is still respected as an important milestone that all serious milers attempt to reach, and few achieve.
Larry
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Hotrod,
Let's see, what year did Roger Banister do that? :cheers: :cheers:
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1954
I think Aug 6 or 7th.
I'm wrong. The Miracle Mile in Vancouver was August 7th. 4 minutes had been broken in June.
The Miracle mile was 3:58 between Bannister and Landy and Bannister won.
That was the day after Doris and I were married.
FREUD
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...yeah...Al Teague and or Don Vesco should be ashamed of themselves for
trying to break a Summers brothers record as old as Burts....sheesh...what were they
thinking...?...
...and Bud Fab and Jack Costella should be ashamed of themselves for going after records set in the 1950's set
by some old outdated outfit named NSU.....
....i dare recon that those old record setters want their records to be put aside and protected from challenges...
...they earned their "history"...we can never take that away.....
...records on the other hand....mean nothing without challenges....
...lets celebrate history by passing on stories...hall of fames...gas ups etc....not diluted down the achievements shielding them...
Joe
Can I get an AMEN! :cheers:
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I say AMEN to that...my comments about Burt's record being set in a different era is that most everyone I know buy their power off a shelf. I fall into that category myself. It was much different making hp when I started. All records are made to be broken. I have set my share and do not see them as holy. Today they are soft and I will congratulate anyone that get them. Back in the eighties, Betty Burkland and I struggled to take an open record of 205 mph...things have changed!
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Burt Monroe's last time on the salt was Speedweek 1971. He had planned to return in 1972, but his health disallowed it. I got to know Burt fairly well over the years (1962 through 1971) I admired his ability to "Make Do" (his much used expression) and accomplish what he did, designing, developing and making his own parts. As much as many would like, he did not officially exceed 200 mph. I don't think anyone could be extremely proud to take his record with the technology of today.
Tom.... You are absolutely right, as far as I know...... Bert NEVER officially exceeded 200MPH.... there are several anecdotal reports though of him UNofficially running 200+ MPH.... and.... Iknow he was NOT using a rev limiter but the sound of his 'liner was like it was hitting a rev limiter.... cutting in and out..... as it accelerated....
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After a couple of pre-dinner margaritas, some wine with the meal we went to the movie. Old Burt was WOT at the 10 mile sign when my wife blurted out "Whats he doing down there, there are no clocks" ...
Great gal!
DW
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I said pretty much the same thing, Dan......LOL
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I've een asked about the movie oh, about a zillion times, and one of the frequent queries is if the course is still 10 miles and more long. I demur, saying that it sure isn't these days. Was it ever - or is that just a bit of Hollywood hyperbole?
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As far a I know the course has never been over 5 miles, with the last 3 timed. The mile markers go to the 7 mile. Some private time has had more area for running the Timed Kilo & Mile.That is what is known as the international course or the old hot rod course. That part of the course passes the road in and is not used for speed week due to traffic coming/going on the lake bed.
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In the past there have been mile markers out to 9/10. When we run the shootout with Mike Cook we have signs to the 11, course permitting.
In my 47 years I have never seen timing lights beyond the 5 sign. In the old two way run days the long course vehicles would start at the 7 sign so that the two mile approach was equal on both ends. Many a driver needed a road map because running back to the start line (0) the signs were numbered backwards.
DW
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It was private time of course, but one year, Rollie Free set a 10 mile record, making the down run, then a wide turn without stopping, and went back the other way. He had to be helped off the bike, due to the fatigue of holding on to the bars for that long of a time. Can you imagine going flat out for 20 miles?
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Roger Donaldson is to be simultaneously commended and cold-cocked for his film "World's Fastest Indian". On one hand he did a wonderful job sharing with the world the sport of land speed racing. However, since he sold tickets using the tag line grabber "Based on one Helluva true story", he had a duty to not screw up the sport's history -- something I asked him to be very careful with when he came to my home looking for help before the film went into production. I reminded him these were real lives, real people and he should take care to be sure the LSR community was happy he arrived and not sorry he ever came once the film was released.
You can't proclaim truth and then mangle it to fit your fantasy facts.
Donaldson ignored me and several others when he explained that Burt NEVER went 200MPH and he said that the audience would never care about anything less than 200MPH. Where he got that idea in his head is beyond me.
What's more, by screwing with the numbers, he trashed Bob Leppan's record integrity in the public forum. I have asked Bob about this and all he says - bless him -- "Anthony Hopkins certainly knows how to grimaces very well sliding on his side." Lest we forget, Bob's arm was nearly ground off in the real-life version of such a scene. Moreover, bob and Burt were very close friends (I have letters written between the two) and I am sure Burt would be VERY annoyed with Donaldson for short-shifting his racing comrade in the hopes of selling a few more tickets.
Frankly, that Burt's record is STILL at the top of the game all these years later is a testament to one man's dedication to speed and it is my opinion that Donaldson screwed himself, his film and his supposed friend Burt with his Hollywood tricks. Shame on him.
I repeatedly asked Donaldson for a copy of his script (he wrote it) and he repeatedly stonewalled me -- the problem iterated throughout this thread are precisely what I had hoped to avoid. Nevertheless, it's not the last, I just corrected the New York Times article of Bill Summers Obit wherein the reporter screwed the records of the Goldenrod, Teague's Spirit of 76, Nearburg's Spirit of Rett, Burkland's 411, Campbell's Bluebird and Don Vesco's Turbinator ALL IN ONE sentence.
Sigh.
LandSpeed Louise
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Louise;
"...he sold tickets using the tag line grabber "Based on one Helluva true story", ..."
It is only a movie-- not a documentary. Note the disclimer "Based on..."
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Bob Leppan and Jim Bruflodt (in the cowboy hat) with Burt Munro, photo by Alex Tremulis...
(http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu248/gyronaut/leppanmunro1.jpg)
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I saw "the movie" years ago, but if I remember -- one scene -- with Bu(e)rt out about the 5, the chase pickup pulls along side and urges him on.
Well, something like that.
Stan
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Louise;
"...he sold tickets using the tag line grabber "Based on one Helluva true story", ..."
It is only a movie-- not a documentary. Note the disclimer "Based on..."
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
The DVD version we saw had footage of a documentary Donaldson did on Burt, IIRC early 70's, that had scenes in it with Burt in his shop that were directly copied into the movie. That stuff can be doctored as well or staged but lent an element of reality to the Hollywood version. Hollywood stuff is just movies of course can't be taken as reality anyway.
Along similar lines (movies), and LS Louise may know, in mid '90's after some of my trips to salt, a local artist and producer came to my house for party of local racers basically to try to drum up money for a project on Art Arfons. I never heard it was done until today when something came up and I googled it. Apparently was shown on PBS or similar in 1999. " The Green Monster". I had some promotion materials about it which in a fit of cleaning up, may have just recently tossed. Anyone know anything about the movie? Guy's name was David Hess.
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Neil / All
My objection is that Donaldson exploited the good name of LSR for his ticket sales and screwed with a part of history that ought not EVER be fodder for a creative license -- the record. You can't, on one hand say this is based on a true story and the jack up that person's story to fit your own whimsy and caprice -- especially at the expense of another (in this case, Bob Leppan). Morevoe, it is especially vulgar when the person is dead and can no longer defend themselves.
I am quite clear on the difference between a film for fun and a documentary, yet both have been utterly mangled by those with loose ethics and morals.
As a historian, I take such things literally and act defensively not necessarily for today but for the public perception 50 or 100 years from now, screw with the public record in this sport and I am on you to tell the truth.
I don't know about others, but one funeral for someone who went to their death trying to get a line in a record book is reason enough to be stalwart and persistent.
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Vel;
What is the difference between "...this is based on a true story..." and "... this is a true story." ?
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil / All
My objection is that Donaldson exploited the good name of LSR for his ticket sales and screwed with a part of history that ought not EVER be fodder for a creative license -- the record. You can't, on one hand say this is based on a true story and the jack up that person's story to fit your own whimsy and caprice -- especially at the expense of another (in this case, Bob Leppan). Morevoe, it is especially vulgar when the person is dead and can no longer defend themselves.
I am quite clear on the difference between a film for fun and a documentary, yet both have been utterly mangled by those with loose ethics and morals.
As a historian, I take such things literally and act defensively not necessarily for today but for the public perception 50 or 100 years from now, screw with the public record in this sport and I am on you to tell the truth.
I don't know about others, but one funeral for someone who went to their death trying to get a line in a record book is reason enough to be stalwart and persistent.
I agree with you in basic principle, but having seen how supposedly unbiased, not selling tickets ( of course they are) news media mangles reports of an event (that I have participated in-in this case swimming across the Chesapeake Bay-4.4miles) I can't be too upset about movies that are clearly someone's imagination and designed to sell tickets. LS Louise alluded to this as well with the NYT article. You just have to take it with a grain of "Bonneville Salt Flats" salt and not get in an uproar. :cheers: But still, I am with you. As historian, just think how history has been rewritten over the years in books, school, media etc etc, to fit some political agenda. We see it every day. Oh Well!
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Did Burt ever mention kissing a transvestite?
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well, I have looked in all of my old programs and records and cannot find out what or who held the record BEFORE it was set by Burt
Munro..
HOW FAST was the previous record...???
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lets not forget that it is a MOVIE...
it is NOT a documentary or a life story...
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In the past there have been mile markers out to 9/10. When we run the shootout with Mike Cook we have signs to the 11, course permitting.
In my 47 years I have never seen timing lights beyond the 5 sign. In the old two way run days the long course vehicles would start at the 7 sign so that the two mile approach was equal on both ends. Many a driver needed a road map because running back to the start line (0) the signs were numbered backwards.
DW
Dan, (and everyone).... there was a time when the retrn runs came back fro mth 9 mile marker to run the two way average over the "SAME PIECE OF REAL ESTATE"... in 1991, the year I made the 2 club, I know that I came back from the 9 mile..... that was the year that Al Teague went 409.986mph.... and he returned from the 10 mile (or very close to it)..... but this does not in anyway imply that timing went beyond the 5 mile mark on the course as, in all of the 40+ years that i have attended, it did not.....