Land Speed Knowledge

[Malcolm UK]

You wanted a debate so here goes with two pence worth of bias from the UK.

By the way although Waldo Stakes may title one of the contributors to this site as "the most enlightened land speed expert on the planet" and promotes Harvey Shapiro too neither are at the top of my list. (And I do own the Shapiro books)

For historical accuracy on most of the world land speed records for cars the Posthumus & Tremayne publication, which when read alongside the later Tremayne books on the exploits of Noble & Co with Thrust 2 and Thrust SSC, captures most of the important information - including the unnsucessful and the so called 'paper projects'.  

As has been noted though, if you can read German then the details amassed by Ferdinand 'Fred' Kassman covers the subject, but perhaps lacks some of the 'human' elements.  Even the small books on the century of record breaking (two volumes) by Fred provide some of the much needed outright wheeldriven contenders details.

If you want to start somewhere and can find the books of David Tremayne then you will have found a good teacher.  My Number One for LSR car knowledge - but hea has done WSR boats too in articles.

Whatever debate this posting 'kicks off', I hope that details about the latest Thrust powered contenders and all of the wheeldriven contenders is gathered by someone so that by say 2010 the next volume of information is published.

Malcolm Pittwood, Derby, England.

ps I hope Jon that the important articles that appear in/on landracing.com will be stored safely for future generations to study?

[PorkPie]

Malcolm & Jon,

the Posthumus & Tremayne is a very good book, unfortunately not up tp date - due to this that the last revise from Tremayne is from 1985 - the Thrust II record from Richard Noble 1983 at Black Rock - all the other activities since them are missing. Would be great if Tremayne revise them to today.

The Kaesmann book is really only "Facts" but therefore it's very good. All the list can be read also from a not German and the 700 picture's is worth every cent of the prize.

The Kaesmann book is over Amazon USA available

"Weltrekordfahrzeuge - die Schnellsten der Schnellen - vom Dampfwagen zum ?berschallmobil"

Will be around $ 30.

350 pages, more than 700 picture.

Under old books - at Amazon - is the Posthumus & Tremayne book
"Land Speed Record - from 39.24 to 600+ mph" available.

Richard Noble's "Thrust - the Quest for Speed" can be get over the same way. The Noble book is also very cheap at Ebay.

For motorcycle freaks - Tom Murphy "The fastest motorcycles on earth - the history of land speed record motorcycles". This is a TP book, around
$ 20, still available. It's okay, not 100 % correct, but tells the story about the motorcycle records with Don Vesco and Dave Campos, too.

Also at Ebay, a guy is selling permanetly a pack of "3 land speed record books" - this books are a collection of reprints of magazine and news paper articles. Not too bad. Unfortuantely the real good one - a collection of five books - bound in one hard cover book - is sold out and very hard to get.

Hope this helps a little bit.

Best wishes

[Malcolm UK]

Either 180 people out htere have looked and not wanted to contribute their 'best' sources or one of you keeps peeping 180 times and has not seen anything new.

If you want a range of articles - LSR people, LSR attempts, LSR engineering, LSR models as well as Water and Air interests, bound into a single publication then the quarterly magazine 'Fast Facts' - produced by the Speed Record Club - is the one to have.  

Whilst the earliest back issues were duplicated the more recent copies can be seen on a CDRom.  The club is up to issue 59 with number 60 due out in February.  The writers include those who have engineered the fastest vehicles on land and water.  Indeed this magazine picks up on the attempts made since the mid eighties to complete the continuation of knowledge.  Of course no one document will contain all of the details that enthusiasts seek - but if you want an international perspective subscribe to this magazine as a member of the SRC.

Malcolm

[John Noonan]

I enjoy reading about the past history of land speed racing since we are very  new to it, I hope that the "sport" of LSR continues to grow and as Scott and many others have said, you cannot forget the success of the others before you.

Keep up with the history lessons..

John

[D-Type]

I get the impression that most who post on this forum are 'doers' and are more interested in 'now' and next year's meeting rather than the sport's history.  There are certainly vast gaps in the published history of LSR 'racing' and someone really should write it all down before it's too late.  

The outright World Land Speed record is reasonably well documented (even if various sources and websites differ in the exact speeds).  The same cannot be said of the numerous long distance and class records. The FIA website lists current holders and is presumably up to date.  But what of the history of all the class/distance combinations including the likes of Ab Jenkins, Goldie Gardner (Gardiner?), Arthur Owen, Mickey Thomson etc.  

As for the multitude of US National records - lakesters, roadsters, Franklin's propster   etc, well ...

[Glen]

D-Type, you are so wrong with most thinking about the present and future. There are many(lots) of people interested in the history of land speed racing and records. I am always looking and researching this part of motor sports history. I started in 1951 and have loved every moment of it.

One of the old timers is a neighbor of mine, Marv Jenkins son of Ab Jenkins. Having the Mormon Meteor just down the road and hearing the stories from Marv, is only a dent in what we do and love. The present and future are important, but the past is history and thats what got us here.

[Tom Bryant]

I also have been around this sport for more than fifty years and love looking back. I find that my accurate memory of events fade rapidly as I focus on what I am doing this year.  That is why I value the programs and publications I have accumulated over the years. It doesn't take much to trigger the mind and come up with the much that I have forgotten.

I find it extremely interesting to look at the lives of the pioneers of LSR. Reading some of the articles about Ak Miller's passing brought to light how much things have changed since he began his chase in the thirties.

Many things have changed...Some of us that are still active in competition can remember a time when everyone flat-towed or towed their cars on open trailers and slept in a tent or the back of a pickup truck. There were no enclosed trailers or 1/4 million dollar motorhomes at our meets.

[Nortonist 592]

As Scott Guthrie said there is no money in our sport.  We don't have major sponsors and I'm not sure we would want them or even need them.  Our history is important.  Some years ago I was given a box of SCTA history.  Minutes of meetings etc.  It made for fascinating reading.  I got a laugh from reading the minutes of a meeting that took place on March 17, 1941.  It said "Vic Edlebrock attempted to define a roadster."  A 32 Ford was'nt even ten years old and the roadster guys could'nt figure out what a roadster was.  Some things have'nt changed.  Not to mention that in nine months time it would all become irrelevant.  No,  we must save our history.  It is full of wonderful characters, innovation and sheer high speed from what are mostly home brewed specials.  These should be preserved.

[JackD]

We are sending what many consider to be our best and brightest bikers to set a few marks down south. They are keeping up with what has to be the dream of a lifetime. When you look at the average age of the bunch you gotta figure this is a sport for elders.
All of that is remarkable and fine but one of the things that is most important is to preserve that history for the next generation. Don't change the rules to match the frailties of the youth but rather let them come up to speed against history and hopefully make some of their own against something real.
Keep it as safe as you can and and while we all enjoy getting older the fast will take care of it's self if you leave a lot of it alone. Don't try to make your mark by changing the rules but do it with results.
Too often the changes in the rules are to benefit mostly yourself and will die with you and results in performance will last much longer.

[Stroker]

Jack D said  Don't change the rules to match the frailties of the youth but rather let them come up to speed against history and hopefully make some of their own against something real.
Keep it as safe as you can and and while we all enjoy getting older the fast will take care of it's self if you leave a lot of it alone. Don't try to make your mark by changing the rules but do it with results.
Too often the changes in the rules are to benefit mostly yourself and will die with you and results in performance will last much longer.

AMEN!

[High Gear]

Scott,

That was easy, 11 points, the record was open.

Head to OZ in 2 days....Vroooooom

Gary

[John Noonan]

Scott,

That was easy, 11 points, the record was open.

Head to OZ in 2 days....Vroooooom

Gary

Gary,

See you there.

John

[PJQ]

In the lake racer community I would guess there's a 50-50 split between those engrossed by historic detail and those not really giving a toss - "get outa the way I need to make another run". It's definitely important and the passionate debate itself is interesting.

We're lucky down-under. As a relative new comer I can talk to the guys that kicked it off at Lake Gairdner, get the local history first hand. Then mull it over and filter out the BS.

Part of what I love about this motorsport is the larrikin attitude that fits hand in glove with the effort it takes to get a vehicle up and running. I'd be disappointed if the history weren't filled with tall stories.

History is written by conquerors. The split in opinion makes the chequered mix of story and fact more interesting and adds to the challenge of building a machine.

PJQ
Velocity Science Laboratories

[JackD]

One of the greatest benefits of history is that you can learn from their mistakes.
They won't always tell you the whole story, but after hearing it from a couple of people you can sorta figure it out.
Fail that and you are doomed to repeat.

[High Gear]

PJQ,

Our team is made up of mostly 50-60+ types who are very interested in the history, after all we were around to see most of our hero's do their thing.

I'm very pleased to say that our younger (less than 30) members are showing lots of interest also. I think they key off the value we old guys put onto what has come before us.

They see how hard we work, see our dedication and value what we show them as something other than the Something For Nothing Has No Value syndrome. They are looking for leadership and in some small way we provide it.

Gary