Author Topic: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011  (Read 743971 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Rex Schimmer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2633
  • Only time and money prevent completion!
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #660 on: June 25, 2011, 06:10:04 PM »

Lars,
As I remember from my sprint car days running alcohol is pretty forgiving. Its sweet spot for maximum power is pretty wide which allows you to run rich with not a huge power loss penalty. We actually controlled the engine temp by how rich we ran the engine in the sprinter. Now these cars are grossly over powered so the loss of a few percent of power for engine cooling is not as big a deal as running an engine a the salt. Sprint cars do not spend their time a WFO throttle like salt vehicles. I think it was John Romero in his 1500 cc blown fuel Honda ( it made over 650 Hp as I remember) told me that he injected alcohol right in front of the turbo and the air temp dropped 70 deg F, he did not run an intercooler as I remember.  I would definitely go with alcohol over water injection, although I like some of your injector concepts!!

Looking forward to seeing you at the salt.

Rex
Rex

Not much matters and the rest doesn't matter at all.

Offline ironwigwam

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #661 on: June 25, 2011, 07:12:30 PM »
If a person could keep the valve springs cooled like with a drop of oil or an injection system one could keep more spring pressure onseat and lessen the heat of springs,
  Hhmh, maybe I could with water?

Offline thefrenchowl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #662 on: June 25, 2011, 08:12:35 PM »
Hi,

The H-D Model K has forced lub to the springs and valve stems, works this way: a hole is drilled between the crankcase and the top of the tappet guides. It's at an angle, pointing up. When the pistons go down, there's more pressure in the crankcase than in the timing cover which is at athmospheric pressure. This forces an oil mist up these holes. Oil is drained from there by a longitudinal groove cut in the tappet guides. Spring telescopic covers are fitted with fiber washers top and bottom and an O ring in between them.

Patrick
Flat Head Forever

...What exactly are we trying to do here?...

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #663 on: June 26, 2011, 08:54:48 AM »
lars,
a good figure on alcohol volume is 2.2 x the amount of gasoline you
would be using.
much research has gone into that figure from those that know way more than me.

franey
OK. Thanks Franey

You should get in contact with some speedway tuner folks, they work exclusivly with methanol. I can put you up with an address in Gothenburg.  I think i saw that you have some so and so drivers there in that tiny Denmark....whats his name....Niklas Petterson, Nicki Pedersen? When I think on speedway I can only think of the shanting that echoed at the circuits
Tony-Tony-Tony-Tony-Tony-Tony Richardson-  :evil:
I don't have experience with methanol, but as I understand it the mixture span is a lot larger before the engine is loosing power. If it is too lean the exhaust temperature rises and if it is too rich the flame goes out and the engine misses. So why not use extra methanol injection instead of the water you are thinking of and loose less power when injection cuts in but still have the cooling effect. A exh. temp gauge could determine when the valve should open.
Thanks Charlie.
Concerning the methanol:
I have some books, booklets and info from various sources
that I read back in 2009 when I started building the bike.
I have to read up on it again.
I think the speedway crowd of today would look at my 70 old , side-valve, supercharged engine,
shake their head and say: " ..what the **** is that ?.."
As for speedway champions I have two words for you: OLE OLSEN  !!!

.-)



Lars,
As I remember from my sprint car days running alcohol is pretty forgiving. Its sweet spot for maximum power is pretty wide which allows you to run rich with not a huge power loss penalty. We actually controlled the engine temp by how rich we ran the engine in the sprinter. Now these cars are grossly over powered so the loss of a few percent of power for engine cooling is not as big a deal as running an engine a the salt. Sprint cars do not spend their time a WFO throttle like salt vehicles. I think it was John Romero in his 1500 cc blown fuel Honda ( it made over 650 Hp as I remember) told me that he injected alcohol right in front of the turbo and the air temp dropped 70 deg F, he did not run an intercooler as I remember.  I would definitely go with alcohol over water injection, although I like some of your injector concepts!!

Looking forward to seeing you at the salt.

Rex

That's my understanding as well ( as I remember it )
that one can run quite rich with little penalty besides the risque
of 'washing' the cylinder walls.

My whole water-injection thing was of cause a joke,
but now I'm all intend on seriously looking into the possibility.

Maybe starting here: Mechanical water injection

Thanks Rex. Looking forward to seeing you too !
« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 08:58:08 AM by octane »
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #664 on: July 01, 2011, 03:20:32 PM »
Crank is back:



..all ready to go.

Here's what happened when the machinist torqued the crank-shaft nut:



Seams a bit weird to me that the diameter is so much
smaller right behind the threads.

Fortunately this brilliant guy have a modified crankshaft of his own making
where the there is no such silly thing
and his also have a smaller hole at the end, so the
'wall's of the hollow shaft is thicket.
This is the original one:



Compared to his



Probably hard to see from the photos
but there is a significant difference.

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #665 on: July 01, 2011, 03:37:34 PM »

AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaH !!!
Finally that glorious , long awaited moment when one can go CLICK



Signifying that now parts are going back together again,
after messing with and fixing dozens and dozens of small damages, dodgy work,
and mistakes.

Carb's ready




Frame touched up with a bit of rattle-can spewing




A bunch of parts fixed, cleaned and ready to be installed




A new set of tires




And last but definitely not least:
engine ready to be assembled.




It's gonna be a nice weekend !
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #666 on: July 01, 2011, 03:59:06 PM »
Spend a few hours at Moen's place ( Indian Parts Europe ) the other day
talking about ideas for future modifications to the bike.
One thing came up:
the possibility to beef up the engine by installing a crank/con-rod assembly
of somewhat stronger build.
From the left,
 rods from: HD WLC , Indian 101 ( more or less like mine ) and HD Sportster.



That Sportster thing certainly looks the part.
It's not too difficult to cram into da' Indian case.
In fact it's a rather common thing to do and he has (click:)all the parts required.
The thing is that it will 'stroke' the engine which is not a bad thing
and if I wants to keep it in the cc-class , I can revert to original size 500cc cylinders.
Mmmmm: worth a thought.

Talked about carburation and some interesting things came down from the shelves:

A bunch of , to me, rather odd carbs, the GARDNERS:



Look how the slide moves downward , the needle is static
and the fuel move up through the slide ...huh !?



Weird, but I've seen a Vincent streamliner from the UK with these on.
They do work really well.

Then this funky old S&S alcohol carb




One type that fascinated was these



The Wal Philips injectors.
A fuel-valve at the top and a butterfly inside.
Adjust the mixture by changing the relative position of the two.
 That's it and that's that.
Absolutely brilliant.

He's got some seriously mouthwatering stuff out there.
Have a look:



Weslake, Jawa, JAP, Ariel and Triumph racing engines.
On the top-shelve you can see part of his collection of magnetos.
Apparently the best ever are the ones from some Vincent engined
'drone' airplanes the Brits used to practice shoot at or something.

Nice stuff indeed.


Have a great weekend ya'all !


« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 04:09:57 PM by octane »
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Offline ironwigwam

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #667 on: July 01, 2011, 06:06:25 PM »
Land Speed Larry,
  I have crank pins with the indian taper that will let you use the Sportster rods in the indian flywheels so you do not increase the stroke.
  So you have another option.
   Am going to Forest Lake for final assembly on liner the 13th.
   will see you in person soon.
    Rocky
    1957S/VG
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 06:54:39 PM by ironwigwam »

Offline saltwheels262

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1085
  • LTA 7/2013
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #668 on: July 01, 2011, 07:03:09 PM »
those gardeners look similar to carbs you see around here in the early and mid seventy's.
 there were--  posa " injectors"
                  lake  " injectors"

franey
bub '07 - 140.293 a/pg   120" crate street mill  
bub '10 - 158.100  sweetooth gear
lta  7/11 -163.389  7/17/11; 3 run avg.-162.450
ohio -    - 185.076 w/#684      
lta 8/14  - 169.xxx. w/sw2           
'16 -- 0 runs ; 0 events

" it's not as easy as it looks. "
                            - franey  8/2007

Offline Nortonist 592

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
    • http://www.artfv.com/design/fashion/
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #669 on: July 01, 2011, 07:48:06 PM »
The Wal-Phillips were a great idea based on an earlier Lucas design.  Like Lucas they leaked (fuel vs. electricity).  But unlike Lucas they actually caught fire and fire is light.  Lucas nearly used their early injector design as headlights.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline grumm441

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1447
  • HK 327
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #670 on: July 02, 2011, 01:50:06 AM »
The Wal-Phillips were a great idea based on an earlier Lucas design.  Like Lucas they leaked (fuel vs. electricity).  But unlike Lucas they actually caught fire and fire is light.  Lucas nearly used their early injector design as headlights.

So they were Lucas's answer to acetylene headlights
Nice
G
Chief Motorcycle Steward Dry Lakes Racers Australia Inc
Spirit of Sunshine Bellytank Lakester
https://www.dlra.org.au/rulebook.htm

Offline panic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 845
    • My tech papers
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #671 on: July 02, 2011, 01:10:57 PM »
More stuff on Wal Phillips on my page here:
http://victorylibrary.com/brit/WP.htm

Offline bak189

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 761
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #672 on: July 03, 2011, 12:50:40 AM »
Wal Phillips "injectors".....I used them on my roadracing sidecar in the 1970 with great success...the outfit
was powered by a pre-unit Triumph engine....the engine was mounted in our outfit in a lay-down position
like the Moto Guzzi singles....made for a lower profile sidecar outfit....The Wal Phillips units got fuel
from 2 Amal GP float bowls...using a electric fuel pump.......once you got them adjusted they worked great
and were not effected by the cornering forces that always effect carburation on a racing sidecar...........


Question authority.....always

Offline wobblywalrus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5503
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #673 on: July 03, 2011, 01:57:25 AM »
The folks at Sudco in the US have the parts to convert Keihin carbs to alcohol, such as float valves, etc.  www.sudco.com  Write or call them.  They have a lot more stuff than is shown on their website.

Offline octane

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 527
  • Nimbus 750 APS-VBF
Re: INDIAN 741 Supercharged...See you in 2011
« Reply #674 on: July 03, 2011, 05:26:35 AM »
,
  I have crank pins with the indian taper that will let you use the Sportster rods in the indian flywheels so you do not increase the stroke.
  So you have another option.
Great .
Thanks Rocky !

those gardeners look similar to carbs you see around here in the early and mid seventy's.
 there were--  posa " injectors"
                  lake  " injectors"

franey

Yep, although I'd say that the Gardners are just a bit more "sophisticated".
My friend George use a POSA on his brilliant supercharged intercooled two-stroke 100cc
that I rode for my rookie-run at Speedweek:



The Wal-Phillips were a great idea based on an earlier Lucas design.  Like Lucas they leaked (fuel vs. electricity).  But unlike Lucas they actually caught fire and fire is light.  Lucas nearly used their early injector design as headlights.
So they were Lucas's answer to acetylene headlights
Nice
G
LOL
More stuff on Wal Phillips on my page here:
http://victorylibrary.com/brit/WP.htm

Wal Phillips "injectors".....I used them on my roadracing sidecar in the 1970 with great success...the outfit
was powered by a pre-unit Triumph engine....the engine was mounted in our outfit in a lay-down position
like the Moto Guzzi singles....made for a lower profile sidecar outfit....The Wal Phillips units got fuel
from 2 Amal GP float bowls...using a electric fuel pump.......once you got them adjusted they worked great
and were not effected by the cornering forces that always effect carburation on a racing sidecar...........
Thanks for the info !
Wonder how they'd work on a blown engine

The folks at Sudco in the US have the parts to convert Keihin carbs to alcohol, such as float valves, etc.  www.sudco.com  Write or call them.  They have a lot more stuff than is shown on their website.
Thanks Bo!
I'll check it out.
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection
not when there is nothing left to add
but when there is nothing left to take away"

Antoine de Saint-Exupery