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Author Topic: Mechanical Water Injection?  (Read 8867 times)
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38flattie
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« on: July 18, 2010, 07:31:47 PM »

I didn't want to clutter the other current thread, so thought I'd start a new one.

Is anyone running a mechanical water injection system in one if the blown  vintage classes?

Is anyone aware of such a system?
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With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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RichFox
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2010, 10:54:27 PM »

When I ran in the class I used a sealed can with one line in from the intake manifold and a line out the top from below the water line. Build boost, squirt water into the top of the carb. Simple.
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jl222
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2010, 01:20:34 AM »


  We ran one in blown gas altered for years before going to new pump type system. We ran a small air #3 or 4 ''boost'' line from intake manifold to a 3 gal aluminum water tank [1/4'' thick and bolted down water lid] then to Enderly fuel jets and nozels [with a # 3 or 4 line] just before impellers [two blowers] at the time. The water has to be injected on the intake side of blowers with this type of system as pressure is not above boost pressure. I like it because it also cools the blower. With the Enderly jets it's easy to change the amount of water. We ran about 20% of fuel flow [ just water no alcohol] because alcohol would put us in fuel class.
 This would be even better for roots type blowers because of their low efficiency and smaller intercoolers if even used.
  Some tractor pullers [John Deer type] inject up to 3 gal min but at real high boost [ like 175 psi] shocked and no intercoolers
because they  stage their blowers [one blower into another blower into another blower] and with all that plumbing going on
there is no room for intercoolers.

  JL222

             
 
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38flattie
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2010, 05:40:14 AM »

Thanks guys!

Sounds easy, and it's all controlled on boost-no boost, no water!
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With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
hotrod
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 05:19:59 PM »

The only problem with that sort of system is if it sets up a siphon action.
You need to make sure the reservoir is placed below the outlet. If placed above the outlet point, once the flow starts it will continue after the engine is shut off due to gravity and residual boost pressure in the reservoir.

The two common ways to resolve those issues is to put a low pressure anti siphon valve in line between the reservoir that is spring loaded to close unless there is a differential pressure of 1 psi or so.That will delay the water flow slightly as you come into boost but will positively shut off flow when you shut down the engine and boost bleeds off from the reservoir.

Some folks who have not taken this safety measure have found that when they attempt to restart the engine it is hydraulic-ed by water that has dripped into the intake after engine shut down.

Or you can use a positive shutoff valve either manual or an electronic solenoid valve that closes when the ignition is cut.
If you are not running high boost you can use anti-siphon valves designed for use in aquarium air bubbler systems, which have a light spring to force them close if the air pump stops.

Larry
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 05:22:33 PM by hotrod » Logged

38flattie
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2010, 05:47:31 PM »

jl222, what kind of boost were you running? I'll be at about 12lbs, and am wondering if the 20% is a good starting point, or maybe less for me, as I imagine you may have had more boost?

Edit: Nevermind, I just thought more about it- 20% of fuel is 20%, regardless of boost. BW

Hotrod, thanks for the info. I'll do that.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2010, 06:30:42 PM by 38flattie » Logged

With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
NathanStewart
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2010, 12:39:57 AM »

I know your concern is the "no computers" rule but you could simply run a Hobbs switch or even a WOT switch to activate an electric pump and use a "modern" high pressure system.  The key to good performance with water injection is atomization.  A high pressure system with a good atomizing nozzle would work great for you. 

Email me if you need parts or more info: nstewart@aempower.com

BTW I think we started a conversation re: water injection on the HAMB a while back but I don't remember hearing from you with more questions.  I'd be more than happy to finish up the convo now.  grin
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38flattie
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2010, 05:33:16 AM »

Beef Stew?
I didn't follow up, because at the time, I was planning port EFI, with water/methanol injection. Even then, I was eyeing the salt flats, and found out that EFI wasn't allowed. I kind of put that part of the build on hold, until I could figure out what I was going to do.
About a month ago, I committed to the salt build, rather than the hotrod.
So,... here I am!

I will contact you for parts AND info .Thanks! I've got a Scott 4 barrel injection system- I'm just trying to decide on that or a 4 barrel.

Could I add a 1" riser between the carb and the blower, and put the injector there?
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With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 10:16:34 AM »

I once saw a system using a bottle with a vent in the top and four small capiliary tubes running into hypodermic needles that were inserted into the intake rubbers (4 cyl bike) and apparently different sized needles were used to meter the water which was sucked up with the vacume effect.bottle being below the carbs of course.
did it work I dont have the foggyest idea but seems feasible.

Cheers Oz
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hotrod
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2010, 11:04:06 AM »

Quote
Could I add a 1" riser between the carb and the blower, and put the injector there?

That sort of injector plate is a common way for folks to add water injection to conventional carburetor NA engines. I would not expect any special problems in a blower application.
If the blower sucks through the carburetor, the water will also help cool and seal the blower rotors and improve its efficiency by reducing temperature gain during compression.

Larry
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wickedwagens
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 10:28:30 PM »

I know this is an old post, but I thought I would ad our setup on here.  This is my friend Oz's turbo VW. 
One line runs from the intake where it will see boost.  The other line runs to the top of the carb where a needle valve controls how much flows in.  Simple and works great.
 

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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 11:16:50 AM »

The 333 /BStR of Tom Walsh uses a water injection nozzle at the front of the Hilborn injector scoop. Works great, I don't know if the activation is electronically controlled or mechanical.

One point to remember is that the water tank is treated the same as the gas tank. The tank MUST be presented empty, then you can fill from a SEALED water bottle(the OEM factory seal is ok), the tank will then be sealed by an official the same as the gas tank. All refills, top offs will again come from a sealed bottle.

DW
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 01:26:43 PM »

Same system I used on my 270 GMC in '78. I am sure I saw it some where before that time. Works great IMHO.
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38flattie
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2012, 09:49:00 AM »

Thanks for all the replies, info, and pics! cheers

I've been thinking about, and discussing water injection for 2 years now.
 
Got talked out of it before, because some thought it was a 'band aid', and really wasn't needed. After reading extensively, about everything from WW ll planes that used it, to modern vehicles, I'm convinced it will help us.
 
One advantage is an engine can run leaner with it. When we start running out to the 4-5 mile mark, it would be nice to have when the engine starts leaning out.
 
I want to have this installed before we go to the dyno, which I plan for March. This way, we can test it, and get empirical Data for this engine.
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With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
jl222
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2012, 11:21:12 AM »


  You might not have this problem because of different plumbing BUT at the end of meet, run the engine and spray WD40 [LPS spray probably better but hard to find] into blower, take out spark plugs squirt oil in cylinders and turn engine over with starter.

   Last year we ran the engine  and sprayed almost a hole can of WD 40 into intake but I can't remember if we took out plugs if we did we just used WD 40. Oil from now on, because just before leaving for Bville we discovered rust in cylinders , mad rush to pull engine apart,BBhone cylinders and leave for Bville.
  Thinking about why spray didn't work, the left over water in the 12X12 intercooler must have used up all the spray. So we'll still run and spray the engine but also squirt a bunch of oil in spark plug holes and turn over engine untill oil spray comes out to make sure no moisture in cyls.

             JL222
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