Author Topic: Timing Systems  (Read 10292 times)

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Offline F104A

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Timing Systems
« on: October 13, 2008, 05:36:02 PM »
   I've often wondered if there is an easier way to time all the cars at Bonneville and the Dry Lakes. I know it is very work intensive to string miles and miles of wires, position the timing lights and so on. In the North American Eagle, we use a GPS system that is pretty accurate but would it meet the requirements for sanctioning records! The GPS system we use has a position data update rate of 20HZ. Horizontal positional accuracy is within 10 millimeters + 1.5ppm x baseline....or if I traveled one measured mile, I would know I actually did travel one mile, plus or minus 5mm+.0033" or .02001 inches. The position data update at 800 MPH is every 58.66 feet.
   This seems pretty accurate to me. One has to remember that at one time, the Russetta Timming Association used air hoses layed out on the course to set off the timing device then eventually technology made it possible to time with optical sensors. Maybe GPS with transponders on each car will make it much easier to set up the courses, get accurate speeds and not fail when a car or bike runs over the location where a timing light used to set. What do ya think?...........Ed
Ed

Offline Sumner

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 05:45:08 PM »
At the special meet Dan asked I think it was the FIA Steward (could have been one of the Rice Bros.) what was the surveying accuracy needed for an international record.  I believe it was .001 or the course had to be accurate to about 5 inches in a mile.  Maybe Dan or Glen could comment on that.

c ya,

Sum

Offline F104A

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 06:05:01 PM »
The GPS system we are using is accurate within .20" over a mile. That is pretty darn accurate and well within the 5" requirement. Something to think about......Ed
Ed

Offline Sumner

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 06:24:35 PM »
The GPS system we are using is accurate within .20" over a mile. That is pretty darn accurate and well within the 5" requirement. Something to think about......Ed

Math is not my strong point, but if it updates at...........

Quote
The position data update at 800 MPH is every 58.66 feet.

............ then I would think the measured mile could be somewhere in that 58.66 feet, but maybe I'm missing something.

I think past posts indicate that they have looked at wireless lights, but don't feel that at this time they are reliable enough due to the salt or something at b'ville.  I'm glad I don't have to deal with all of that wire.  Dan told me how they clean it when they are done and what a job.  We sometimes just don't realize all that the guys and gals do so that we can race.

c ya,

Sum

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 07:02:26 PM »
Ed, there is probably a more modern way to time things -- such as measured stretches of land as used in land speed racing.  I've thought about this and got responses saying it couldn't work, but I still think it'd be a feasible idea.  I'll try again -- maybe you can find someone that can figure it out.

The system would use timing lights, just like we have now -- but instead of a simple light triggering a contact closure which is sensed at the other end of a long wire (or however it's done now) --

The interruption of the light beam would trigger a contact closure, which closure would be noted as having happened at some specific time on a clock mounted right there, at the timing light.  The clock would be receiving a continuous clock signal from a central clock system, as would all of the timing light clocks -- so each and every clock would have the precise same time, down to the accuracy needed for the event.  Time lag for the clock signal to get to each clock would be discoverable - so any difference due to distance from central to outlying could be "tuned out" of the system -- and every clock would be reading the same time.  Since the distance from central to any clock would be no more than (perhaps) five miles, the lag would be measured in microseconds -- but still could be tuned out with some feedback, if necessary.

Then - take the data that includes the time of the contact closure and the location of the light - and transmit that back to the timing central system.  Because the signal would contain accurate timing information - any lag, whether it be microseconds or minutes, would be irrelevant - because the received data would include the correct time that the event happened.  Compare the data from two clocks in order and you'd have the elapsed time between lights.

The data would be digital so there wouldn't be interference (at least, none that couldn't be taken care of, and there could also be repetitive transmissions of the data so that if one burst was lost -- it'd be repeated a millisecond or five ms later and the signal would still be back to Central in plenty of time).  And because the system is two-way -- error correction could be included to help fine-tune and also further reject interference.

Whaddaya think?  Seems workable to me -- but one of the racers (Mike, from Columbus Ohio) says it wouldn't - and he's way more of a computer guy than I.  let me know -- and if you find that it's workable, and find someone to designed and build it -- give me credit, or put my name on the patent applications, please.

Thanks for letting me try stating this idea again.  I get it better each time I think it through.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline ack

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 07:11:29 PM »
If you are thinking of using GPS for surveying the course to position the lights that’s already being done by most major surveying firms and an accuracy of sub centimeter values in a mile are easily obtainable.  This accuracy can only be obtained by having the equipment stationary for relatively long periods of time.

Even the best GPS systems can not approach this accuracy while moving. The best DGPS is only good for 3-5 meters (9-15) feet and WAAS  is <3 meters (<9 feet) with only a 95% probability.

Good enough to land an airplane but not nearly good enough for speed measurements to 1000th of a second. Even survey methods 50 years ago were probably in the 1-2 inch range per mile. Jack Dolan would probably know. 

Offline tomsmith

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2008, 08:08:11 PM »
I don't remember the accuracy of surveys, but 50 years ago surveys were all based on the Clarke Spheroid of 1866 (which defined the shape of the Earth as it was known then).  There was an International Ellipsiod of 1901, but trying to use this shape caused calculations over even a short distance to get fouled up.  I bet the current "pear" shape would be even worse.  No doubt you ask why someone (the USGS) doesn't update to a better earth shape.  The answer is that most of the surveyed world is based on the 1866 shape and things wouldn't match up if they did.  It doesn't take much distance (just 5 or so miles) for surveys to not match up with the actual terrain.  Also, magnetic/gravity anomalies (mountains, iron deposits, etc) fouls survey transits up.  I've often wondered how early ICBMs found a place to impact with any accuracy since maps were miles off back then and the Russians intentionally had maps with cities 30 or 40 miles off - early satellite pictures discovered a lot of problems.  I presume they currently use military GPS data and get it within an inch or two.  In other words, don't use survey data unless you have to.

This is yet another in my series of probably useless info.
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Offline DallasV

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 08:17:54 PM »
I'm not really up to speed on the latest technology of GPS systems so maybe someone could answer a couple of questions about it for me in regards to timing at the salt.

1) records are set by average speed through a timed mile. this cant be done by measuring the entry speed and exit speed and getting an average unless the vehicle is accelerating linearly. so it can only be done by measuring time through the mile. Will a GPS system update quickly enough to do this, or can the GPS system keep track of average speed through a measured mile to whithin (x inches per mile) and how accurate is the average (how many samples make the average)?

2) Can a GPS system be calibrated to meed the requirements of the major sanctioning bodies?

Just wondering these things, I think a GPS type system would be a great idea. I have been straped in ready to run in 110 deg heat when the person in front of me clipped the clocks. Also the big question how much $$$.

Records or parts, I didn't come all this way not to break something.

Offline ack

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2008, 09:58:42 PM »
I'm not really up to speed on the latest technology of GPS systems so maybe someone could answer a couple of questions about it for me in regards to timing at the salt.

1) records are set by average speed through a timed mile. this cant be done by measuring the entry speed and exit speed and getting an average unless the vehicle is accelerating linearly. so it can only be done by measuring time through the mile. Will a GPS system update quickly enough to do this, or can the GPS system keep track of average speed through a measured mile to whithin (x inches per mile) and how accurate is the average (how many samples make the average)?

2) Can a GPS system be calibrated to meed the requirements of the major sanctioning bodies?

Just wondering these things, I think a GPS type system would be a great idea. I have been straped in ready to run in 110 deg heat when the person in front of me clipped the clocks. Also the big question how much $$$.



The way you calculate the average speed through the Mile or Kilo is pretty simple you divide 3600 by the number of seconds it takes to go a mile or a kilometer i.e. 3600/16sec = 225 mph or 225 kph

The way GPS calculates speed is it measures the distance traveled and the time it takes to travel that distance.  Most GPS systems update every 1 second (1Hz).  In the above mile example the distance between the samples would be 1/16 of a mile or 330 feet.

Most ground based GPS units will give you peak speed and average speed but the only way you could get an average speed through the mile would be to start the GPS exactly as you entered the mile and stop it exactly when you exited the mile also any average would be subject to the refresh rate of the GPS and could be up to 330 feet off add that to the inherent inaccuracy of a moving GPS one could not even get close to accuracy required by the world sanctioning bodies. The FIM and I believe the FIA require timing accuracy to 1000th of a second and certification of distances between the lights which is now routinely done to sub centimeter accuracy.

Offline F104A

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2008, 10:52:00 PM »
   The GPS system we have is provided by Topcon and they deal mostly with military applications. The last test run we conducted we had positioning from 13 satillites and were able to measure within 20 thousands of an inch of our position and sampled every 14.6 feet at 200 MPH. We gather the data via our onboard computer plus we transmit that active data over wireless ethernet to a base station. The operator in the control tower (in our case a Honda Accord with antennas sticking out of the roof and looks like a porcupine) can read that data and can graph the speed throughout the run plus terminal velocity and speed from one fixed point to another. It isn't affected by wind, rain, sunshine, dark of night or many other things that might be cause for concern....Ed
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2008, 11:45:50 PM »
Quote
The last test run we conducted we had positioning from 13 satillites and were able to measure within 20 thousands of an inch of our position and sampled every 14.6 feet at 200 MPH.

You are quoting accuracy that far exceeds anything that is supposed to be available to civilians there, are you sure that positional accuracy is possible, or perhaps the figment of some sales agents imagination?

I might buy the idea of a positional accuracy of 20/1000 of a meter or about 3/4 of an inch, but that would still be a fixed location survey quality fix extending over a period of time to cancel out errors, not a moving fix.

Public domain GPS errors are currently quoted as approximately as follows:

Ionospheric effects +/- 5 meters
Ephemeris errors for true satellite postion +/- 2.5 meter
Satellite clock errors +/- 2 meters
Radio signal Mulitpath distortion +/- 1 meter
Tropospheric effects on the radio signals +/- 0.5 Meters
Numerical rounding errors in calculations +/- 1 meter.

These can be canceled out to some extent by long residence time at a fixed location and comparing results from a large number of satellites so that fixed postion locations on survey quality equipment achieves accuracy measured in centimeters, but moving GPS from every source I have read still has positional errors measured in meters. In most cases that is not a big deal as a GPS track is still easily able to determine which lane of a multi-lane highway you are driving in and your distance traveled to accuracy greater than a typical speedometer, and time accuracy measured in Milliseconds.

It would be interesting if that sort of absolute accuracy is possible but everything I have seen is the best absolute positional accuracy you are ever likely to see in a GPS unit available to the public is on the order of +/- 20-30 centimeters for rapid fixes, and for survey quality, with very long residence time at a fixed location on the order of 3 centimeters.


Larry
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 11:53:08 PM by hotrod »

Offline Wester

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2008, 11:57:07 PM »
Gary Wilkinson could explain the timing system we use far better than I can.  He has been working on wireless timing for years trying to come up with a system that is dependable and affordable.  We have experimented with a wireless system used in ski racing that is very good.  One of the problems is transmitting the data to the computer on the salt.  There is a problem with radios and salt and reliability.  Mike Cooper, the bike racer from Columbus, has worked with Gary on it for several years trying to come up with a reliable system.  That's the problem, there's factors on the salt that hamper reliability you don't have on snow just because of location.  We're currently using a wireless link to get the time slips printed 2,000 feet from the timing computer with pretty good reliability.  Pretty good isn't good enough as Glen can tell you.  Dallas knows how miserable it is to be held up before a run when the racer before him has clipped the lights and they have to be reset ... but the probability of him getting an accurate timing slip is very high.  The wireless systems just don't have that reliability.  Making a run without getting a time slip is about the worst thing that can happen and 8 miles of wire is still the best way to be sure he gets it.  Eight sensors have to work every run.  How about the expense of a radio transmitter that is clipped by a spin?  We use motorcycle batteries with the eyes in a pvc tube epoxied on top to have the smallest object that can be hit and a radio transmitter is far larger and much more expensive.  We have had years when CB radios don't work over a mile or so on the salt.  Can you imagine the racer's frustration if a radio signal from one sensor is interrupted?  Come up with a reliable system we can afford and guarantee it to be accurate and we would be all over it in a heartbeat.  So far wire just presents the fewest problems.


Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2008, 12:24:18 AM »
There is something to be said about miles of copper wire.

1. How archaic! 2. How reliable!

GPS at the accuracy stated is for military only as far as I know. It isn't cheap! Even if it was feasible, how many would you need for 500 entries? I doubt you could guarantee repeatability.

Wireless transmission is certainly doable. You would need microwave for that kind of distance. A high antenna would probably solve the salt problem. The salt is a lousy environment for any kind of electronic gear out on the salt. And the cost would be REALLY high.

So, how about that wire!
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Offline John Burk

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2008, 01:14:22 AM »
I rode with the folks doing wire lay down a couple of times so I asked my brainy friend Bill about wireless and explained how the salt is difficulty of transmit over and the occasional static . He thought about it and said something similar to what Slim described . Each photo cell would have a gps synchronized clock and record the precise time of day the beam was broken and sent it to the tower on command and repeat if needed . I talked to Mike Manghelli about it . One problem , the Rices clocks which need need a start and stop impulse would not work . Another is the SCTA has a limited number of technical minded people . The hard working people we have to handle the wires and the Rice Brothers always there to maintain their timers is hard to replace . Tag Heuer has wireless timing for down hill skiing but our environment is more difficult , greater distances , static , salt interference , compatibility , personnel .

John Burk

Offline John Burk

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Re: Timing Systems
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2008, 01:41:08 AM »
If it was possible , one impulse wire for all the photocells and an electronic device in the tower to identify the source .

John Burk