Prop driven vehicles

[Ratliff]

I guess that makes me the trouble maker... I was just interested in the credentials of our new resident LSR expert.  I personally don't care how fast air boats or air planes have gone, in the 20s, 30s or 40s.  It is stuff not applicable to LSR, but for the interested it was obviously posted for your viewing pleasure. 
In another post I just wanted to know if FR had written books, built LSR cars, set or held records, or any of that sort of LSR expert stuff.  Or if he was just a collector of history to randomly post for viewing.  Sorry, didn't mean to put a hitch in the apple cart (which incidentally has done 8 MPH with 1 horsepower in 1902)    (Sorry, no u-tube of it, the horse was camera shy.)
I love this job... 

How many people run at Speedweek each year by paying SOMEONE ELSE to build the car and BUYING a motor to put in it?

[wolcottjl]

Here is my 1/2 cent worth of a comment.  I usually keep my mouth shut and ask questions or provide a weblink to something I have found.  I am your classic Landspeed lurker.  But, Why are we going down this path again?  Franklin I appreciate the fact that you have the desire to prove your theories and the cahones to keep defending what you believe will work.  Right or wrong the fact is that currently there is no venue that will allow you to prove or disprove your ideas.   Personally I feel that until you can find or finance a venue (private time on the salt or an airstrip) to prove your theories then perhaps it is time to stop arguing this idea.  This subject will eventually degrade into a locked topic and eventually if history is any indication your removal from this forum.  I appreciate some of the old articles that you have published on the forum.  I understand some of the members disdain of your postings, perhaps due your desire of providing some nugget of reasoning behind your specific ideas.  Quite a few of the members on this site have either already read about these vehicles or as in a lot of instances actually saw them run.  I haven’t so I appreciate the history.  Personally I disagree with quite a few of your ideas, some on technical merit some on safety.  Sometimes your ideas make me look at a theory or idea that I would not have thought about.  But, I have not found one of your ideas that I could convince myself to support.  I would suggest that you create a website and post up your ideas, articles, and images. 

[Ratliff]

Here is my 1/2 cent worth of a comment.  I usually keep my mouth shut and ask questions or provide a weblink to something I have found.  I am your classic Landspeed lurker.  But, Why are we going down this path again?  Franklin I appreciate the fact that you have the desire to prove your theories and the cahones to keep defending what you believe will work.  Right or wrong the fact is that currently there is no venue that will allow you to prove or disprove your ideas.   Personally I feel that until you can find or finance a venue (private time on the salt or an airstrip) to prove your theories then perhaps it is time to stop arguing this idea.  This subject will eventually degrade into a locked topic and eventually if history is any indication your removal from this forum.  I appreciate some of the old articles that you have published on the forum.  I understand some of the members disdain of your postings, perhaps due your desire of providing some nugget of reasoning behind your specific ideas.  Quite a few of the members on this site have either already read about these vehicles or as in a lot of instances actually saw them run.  I haven’t so I appreciate the history.  Personally I disagree with quite a few of your ideas, some on technical merit some on safety.  Sometimes your ideas make me look at a theory or idea that I would not have thought about.  But, I have not found one of your ideas that I could convince myself to support.  I would suggest that you create a website and post up your ideas, articles, and images. 

What makes you think the feasibility or potential of prop-driven cars is "theory"?

And excuse me, but what qualifies anyone to dictate which ideas must be segregated from open meets, when racing is costly enough, forcing the innovative racer to arrange logistics and incur expenses that racers running the same old technology don't have to deal with?

[Ratliff]

I guess that makes me the trouble maker... I was just interested in the credentials of our new resident LSR expert.  I personally don't care how fast air boats or air planes have gone, in the 20s, 30s or 40s.  It is stuff not applicable to LSR, but for the interested it was obviously posted for your viewing pleasure. 
In another post I just wanted to know if FR had written books, built LSR cars, set or held records, or any of that sort of LSR expert stuff.  Or if he was just a collector of history to randomly post for viewing.  Sorry, didn't mean to put a hitch in the apple cart (which incidentally has done 8 MPH with 1 horsepower in 1902)    (Sorry, no u-tube of it, the horse was camera shy.)
I love this job... 

In 1973, Breedlove made attempts at Bonneville on standing records with a rocket dragster (that originally had been built for the piston engine wheel-driven record) using a motor design based on one from the Apollo lunar module.

To the best of my knowledge, below is a list of the first six cars to go 300 mph. The only one that didn't use an airplane engine was Challenger 1.

1. Sir Malcolm Campbell's Bluebird
2. George Eyston's Thunderbolt
3. John Cobb's Railton
4. Mickey Thompson's Challenger 1
5. Athol Graham's City of Salt Lake
6. Art Arfons "Anteater" Green Monster

The Rolls-Royce R Type, used in Bluebird and Thunderbolt, is the only engine in history to set absolute air, land, and water speed records.

[Stainless1]

Will one of the moderators take my name off the "Post started by" Section since it does not belong there.
Thanks,

Tom G.

Tried Tom, sorry, but I added a line to the first post.

How many people run at Speedweek each year by paying SOMEONE ELSE to build the car and BUYING a motor to put in it?

2 and a half by my count, but who cares, they are racing, living a dream to race on the salt flats.  Everyone buys something for their racecar.

Here is a website to look at
http://deputy-dog.com/2007/09/27/7-unusual-propeller-driven-vehicles/

Most discontinued for impracticality, but odd just the same.  For everyone's viewing pleasure, it is on topic.  

Airplane engines of old were huge, but compared to the 60-100 HP available for cars possessed the horsepower.  No one was building 2300 CI car motors.  HP is what makes anything go fast.  Your 40 hp engine driving a prop will not go as fast as a 40 hp wheel drive in the same vehicle.  Prove me wrong, don't theory me wrong....

Frank, Have you approached USFRA about letting you run?  They are an open minded group, maybe it is time to start applying theory to racing.   

[Sumner]

Will one of the moderators take my name off the "Post started by" Section since it does not belong there.
Thanks,

Tom G.

Tom it was your post that took the original post off track and so the topic was split there resulting in your post being the first post on this thread.  When a post is split like that I don't know how to assign a new name to "Post started by" as it is done automatically by the software.  Sorry about that, maybe Jon knows how.  Mean while I guess others should pay attention that this could happen again and that we need to stay on topic or start a new thread.

In a few days it will slide off into oblivion,

Sum

[Elmo Rodge]

And excuse me, but what qualifies anyone to dictate which ideas must be segregated from open meets, when racing is costly enough, forcing the innovative racer to arrange logistics and incur expenses that racers running the same old technology don't have to deal with?

That pretty much says it.  Wayno

[Ratliff]

Will one of the moderators take my name off the "Post started by" Section since it does not belong there.
Thanks,

Tom G.

Tried Tom, sorry, but I added a line to the first post.

How many people run at Speedweek each year by paying SOMEONE ELSE to build the car and BUYING a motor to put in it?

2 and a half by my count, but who cares, they are racing, living a dream to race on the salt flats.  Everyone buys something for their racecar.

Here is a website to look at
http://deputy-dog.com/2007/09/27/7-unusual-propeller-driven-vehicles/

Most discontinued for impracticality, but odd just the same.  For everyone's viewing pleasure, it is on topic.  

Airplane engines of old were huge, but compared to the 60-100 HP available for cars possessed the horsepower.  No one was building 2300 CI car motors.  HP is what makes anything go fast.  Your 40 hp engine driving a prop will not go as fast as a 40 hp wheel drive in the same vehicle.  Prove me wrong, don't theory me wrong....

Frank, Have you approached USFRA about letting you run?  They are an open minded group, maybe it is time to start applying theory to racing.   

That speed of 170 kilometers per hour reported for the Helica in 1927 works out to a speed of 105.4 miles per hour.

http://deputy-dog.com/2007/09/27/7-unusual-propeller-driven-vehicles/

[Stainless1]

OK Frank, Which part of the quoted post were you answering?  You lost me there.  I gave you the site, I too can do math when required, it didn't say what size motor it used, maybe another "huge BMW motor" 
When using the quote function if helps to address something you are quoting.  Those of us who are a little slow on the uptake understand it better that way, it doesn't seem so random.

Your 40 hp engine driving a prop will not go as fast as a 40 hp wheel drive in the same vehicle.  Prove me wrong, don't theory me wrong....

Frank, Have you approached USFRA about letting you run?  They are an open minded group, maybe it is time to start applying theory to racing.  

Have you approached USFRA?  They allow lots of odd vehicles, although I suspect you will need to put a guard around the prop for safety.

[Ratliff]

It would be satisfying to see a general acknowledgement that are ways for piston engine cars at the dry lakes or Bonneville to accelerate like dragsters.

Junior Dragsters or Top Fuel Dragsters?

A Junior Dragster can record a 1.5 second 60' time.
A Top Fuel Dragster can record a 0.85 second 60' time.

Both are pretty dang fast accelerations. I have no doubt that a big engine and a big prop will put you back in the seat in any vehicle, land, sea or air but accelerate like dragsters?

A Junior Dragster launches at a little over 2g. A Top Fuel dragster launches at around 6g. That 6g launch means the Top Fuel dragster is developing around 13,000 lbs of thrust.

The most realistic figures I've seen for prop thrust are 2.5 to 3.0 lbs per horsepower. With 500 horsepower you'd be looking at an initial thrust of 1,250 to 1,500 lbs. With 1,000 horsepower that would be 2,500 to 3,000 lbs. Prop diameter for high horsepower motors could be kept down to reasonable sizes with either a wide chord prop having five or six blades, or counter-rotating props. As shown in the attached photos, there are good counter-rotating units available off the shelf as the result of progress in airboat technology.