e85 question

[Dan Stokes]

Given that Keith is off line for a few days, I'll add my limited knowledge -

At Maxton, Keith and Joe strongly urge us to use the vendor gas, but he announces at every driver/rider meeting that IF we bring VF or other fuel in sealed containers, we need to have the vendor seal the tank when we're done refueling.  I've always used the Sunoco, but I'm guessing that they have to watch you pour it in your tank from a previously sealed can.  It's considered good form to tip them a few $$ if you do that.  Also, if you can convince that you have plain old pump gas in your tank, they can choose to seal your tank with the fuel you brought.  Again, a tip is good form.  Remember, we run on the assumption that we are all honorable people and no one is deliberately cheating.  If you can live with a record you stole by cheating - well, I don't think I could sleep soundly.

On E85 - I suspect that it will be "Fuel" for the foreseeable future, but that's an opinion.  The characteristics of the fuel are SO different that it just can't run head-to-head with gasoline.

Don't know if that helps.
Dan

[Dean Los Angeles]

we are all honorable people and no one is deliberately cheating. 

EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.

EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.

Once you hang on to that principle, then you set rules accordingly. If racer A can bump the record 20 mph because he isn't running gasoline, how is racer B ever going to break it on gas?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, most of us don't cheat, but some do. If no one cheated we wouldn't have a rule book.

As my daddy used to say, "you can fool some of the people, some of the time . . . and that's enough to make a decent living!"

So, does this mean that E85 would be placed in an alcohol class despite being a pump fuel?

Unapproved gasoline=fuel class. "Pump" fuel means nothing. Gasoline has a Dielectric Constant of around 2.025. Addition of oxygen or anything other than hydrogen or carbon will raise that figure. Despite the 40 some odd chemical flavors of "gasoline" they are all completely hydrogen and carbon. The alcohol in E85 has an oxygen molecule and would send the DC through the roof. Not to mention add a ton of horsepower.

As much as I hear octane mentioned in the same breath as horsepower, I just can't help but laugh. They don't correlate at all. Octane is a measure of anti-knock performance. BTU's indicate heat released from the fuel, and that's horsepower. Rick is the only racing gas vendor that gives that rating. It's in the column called "Heat release per unit weight (bomb calorimeter method)"
http://www.ercracingfuels.com/sxs1.htm

More about fuel:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2308.0.html

[Dan Stokes]

No Dean, you're wrong.  I know for a fact that I am NOT deliberately cheating, and I am one of "everyone".  Neither are my friends - people of whom I have specific knowledge.  We have a rulebook so we know where to run the thing that we built, or how to build what we're going to build.

At the last meet, I had my front air dam projecting too far in front of the bumper.  I set no records, and it will be fixed before I come back.  I would not have accepted any records I might have set.  But it was a screw-up - I didn't read the rules correctly.  Like I said, I have to look at me in the morning, and I REFUSE to compromise myself for an unearned record.  If someone can be had that cheap - well, there's a name for that.  Look on Hollywood Blvd. and you'll see a bunch of them.

Remember, ECTA exists to prep cars for Bonneville.  If someone wants to cheat here, there just going to get caught there anyway, so why bother?

Back to the fuels - I agree with you.  There's no way that E85 is equivalent to gasoline.  On the Octane deal - Octane doesn't make power.  Lack of Octane takes power.  If you have enough of it to satisfy your combination, that's all you need.  I think the issue with E-85 is the oxygen.  That's how N2O and nitromethane work.  So no, it can't ever run as a form of gasoline.

My $.02
Dan

[Seldom Seen Slim]

So - did all you boys and girls out there in racerland read the updated rules on "E"xx gas as they were posted on landracing.com earlier today?  A whole bunch of this thread just became moot.

[1212FBGS]

willie, stainless, there was big..ok huge debate about MULA prior to speedweek...we even tried it in the Aprilia.....my thought was if our hard working dedicated gas vendor calls it gas we should allow it, others didnt see it that way, they argued that there are several other gasses that fall within the DC so use one of them.....MULA was disallowed in gas classes as of the Oct (? I think) board meeting... put it in your generator or whatever just dont put it in a vehicle entered in a gas class... it does not fall within the DC specs...if cought using fuel in a gas class you may be suspended for 5 years....
As a side bar, a lot of racing organizations are requiring the use of unleaded race fuels.  a few years ago when we were building my Gilera 2 stroke i had a euro GP motor builder set up my motor his was... since the world GP guys have HAD to use unleaded since 2000 he welded and remachined my cylinder head to his specs for UL.....and we used it sucessfully to get a record at elmo....Since MULA is the "only" UL that ERC sells....any one know where i can get a new head for a Gilera cx125?
kent

[Stainless1]

willie, stainless, there was big..ok huge debate about MULA prior to speedweek...we even tried it in the Aprilia.....my thought was if our hard working dedicated gas vendor calls it gas we should allow it, others didnt see it that way, they argued that there are several other gasses that fall within the DC so use one of them.....MULA was disallowed in gas classes as of the Oct (? I think) board meeting... put it in your generator or whatever just dont put it in a vehicle entered in a gas class... it does not fall within the DC specs...if cought using fuel in a gas class you may be suspended for 5 years....
As a side bar, a lot of racing organizations are requiring the use of unleaded race fuels.  a few years ago when we were building my Gilera 2 stroke i had a euro GP motor builder set up my motor his was... since the world GP guys have HAD to use unleaded since 2000 he welded and remachined my cylinder head to his specs for UL.....and we used it sucessfully to get a record at elmo....Since MULA is the "only" UL that ERC sells....any one know where i can get a new head for a Gilera cx125?
kent

Thanks for the "insider" information, as with most of the crap that comes out of the scta, those of us that are not on the board would never know until we show up at the races.  As I read the "new" gas rule, it still seems that if ERC supplies MULA as an event gas, then it is legal.  I guess the rule should read ERC MULA is no longer a legal event gas...  if that is the official intent!  It didn't make unleaded illegal.
I guess lots of things happened in October, we chopped up fairings at an event that were OK as was the next event, the board secretly outlaws MULA....
Any other info us outsiders should know?  The BNI members can always use the advance information, thanks.......

[team_cougar]

Wow. Somebody needs a hug. 

[interested bystander]

I don't like or want to criticise posters- except Jack, of course, 'cause he come's back hitting ME harder usually, but hey, STAINLESS, I think your'e getting PARONOID in accusing the SCTA of "SECRET" decisions.

It's probably a more democratic organization than the US Congress-(although there are LOBBY groups) and, don't forget this, it consists of your fellow racers who contribute a lot of FREE time and energy to keeping landspeed racing alive some of whom compete AGAINST each other in the same classes.

You want to bash somebody, get on one of the NHRA or Nausea drag racing websites.

You got a problem with SCTA/BNI? Contact the appropriate commitee member and DIPLOMATICALLY express your concerns!

E85 contains ALCOHOL, and ALCOHOL is listed in the RULE book as a FUEL class fuel.

Trust me, it WON'T be the fuel of the future!

[Stainless1]

IB, my post concerned MULA and the info Kent posted, not about E85, I even quoted Kent so all would know what I was talking about.  MULA has been a legal ERC furnished gas for several years.  I rechecked the official website, can't find any info on a meeting or info outlawing MULA as a legal unleaded racing gasoline.  If info from an "insider" was not posted here us "outsiders" (BNI members, no representation, although a larger group than scta members) wouldn't have a clue.... that is my concern. 
Rule changes and interpretations happen and it would be nice if that info was announced officially....
Paranoid?  probably, since I was one of the victims of the October fairing slaughter! I've heard on this site only, the decision was reversed.  The scta members were not required to hack them up at EM... so does it seem like the BNI members are on the short end, naw, we're just paranoid...

[jimmy six]

Even tho this does not meet the area of the ECTA the SCTA fuel limit is 15 at El Mirage on the new tester. I believe MULA is under that number. The SCTA minutes may reflect that if you are a SCTA member and your club gives you a copy of the minutes. Good Luck

[dwarner]

Jon Amo is a SCTA member and used to publish the minutes but that went away.

DW

[JackD]

Jon Amo is a SCTA member and used to publish the minutes but that went away.

DW

Someome mentioned if the SCTA minutes were ever published outside of a very limited group, He would quit.
We are still waiting
The instant real result was a much wider, under the table , E-mail distribution to anybody that evpressed a desire.
As time marches on, all that is required now is to contact the Secretary, and with a push of a button, they regularly arrive.

" It is always best to ride the horse in the direction he is going."
 

[Dean Los Angeles]

HEY! DC of 15!

Bring on the nitromethane! 10% alcohol!

You can throw out all of the gas records. Maybe we should have "pre-2008" records.

The previous records were set with a maximum dielectric constant (DC) of 2.3. Gasoline is tested using cyclohexane, with true DC value of 2.025 as a test reference. SCTA allowed a maximum of 2.3. This reflects the conductivity of compounds containing only carbon and hydrogen. All gasoline compounds consist of only chains of carbon and hydrogen.

There are very few racing fuels that have a DC even close to 15. Adding oxygenates that will give a DC around 15 will add a bunch of horsepower.

Allowing a DC of 15 means you can run methanol. It also means you can run nitromethane. No? Give me a decent test for nitromethane in gasoline. The rules say no nitrogen bearing compounds, meaning nitromethane. Also ruled out are propylene oxide and ethylene oxide. Good luck testing for those.

testing for the dielectric constant (D.C.) value, color comparisons, specific gravity, gas chromatography, mass spectrometry, and/or other testing methods.

DC is the only realistic test they have. Color comparisons have to be done in a controlled lighting environment to be valid. Specific gravity testing isn't going to tell them anything based on the number of compounds you could possibly run.

SCTA doesn't have the budget to do testing for gas chromatography or mass spectrometry.

They have really let the cat out of the bag on this one. I have no idea why this sounded like a good idea to anyone.  Event gas will no doubt be something other than plain gasoline.

Non-event gas, like El Mirage, is going to be like the old wild west.

[Stainless1]

EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.

EVERYONE IS DELIBERATELY CHEATING.

Once you hang on to that principle, then you set rules accordingly. If racer A can bump the record 20 mph because he isn't running gasoline, how is racer B ever going to break it on gas?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, most of us don't cheat, but some do. If no one cheated we wouldn't have a rule book.

As my daddy used to say, "you can fool some of the people, some of the time . . . and that's enough to make a decent living!"

HEY! DC of 15!

Bring on the nitromethane! 10% alcohol!

You can throw out all of the gas records. Maybe we should have "pre-2008" records.

The previous records were set with a maximum dielectric constant (DC) of 2.3. Gasoline is tested using cyclohexane, with true DC value of 2.025 as a test reference. SCTA allowed a maximum of 2.3. This reflects the conductivity of compounds containing only carbon and hydrogen. All gasoline compounds consist of only chains of carbon and hydrogen.

There are very few racing fuels that have a DC even close to 15. Adding oxygenates that will give a DC around 15 will add a bunch of horsepower.

They have really let the cat out of the bag on this one. I have no idea why this sounded like a good idea to anyone.  Event gas will no doubt be something other than plain gasoline.

Non-event gas, like El Mirage, is going to be like the old wild west.

Hey Dean, maybe that is how they plan to reduce the cheating you think everyone is and should be doing, make everything legal!  And you didn't think they had a plan once they learned everyone must be cheating.... 

[interested bystander]

Stainless, I apologize for my taking you to task- I have been famous at times for two athletic talents-JUMPING to conclusions and RUNNING off at the mouth. The subject WAS e85 thus my response, BUT I stand behind my statements about contacting the appropriate SCTA/BNI commitee member and I'll say it another way,in your behalf, TAKE THEM TO TASK, diplomatically, of course,'til you get a satisfactory answer to your greivances inwriting. Like Jack says, HOLD THEIR FEET TO THE FIRE!

As an INTERESTED BYSTANDER Im quite aware that outsiders-I.E. BNI members-as am I also, feel sometimes that SCTA is a "Good 'Ol Boy" group and you have to go through hoops sometimes before you're accepted. I have documented testimony of some ot that

I equate some members actions in their OFFICIAL capacity as being like the "acting" Corporals we experienced in the Army, when recruits were given a safety-pinned armband and a little authority.

 I'm convinced from your posts that you race as fair as you know how.