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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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About Fuel
« on: April 14, 2007, 10:54:33 AM »
About Fuel
Racing is all about fuel. It amazes me how little is really known about it. I’m pretty sure that if there is a fuel that has been tried, I’ve tried it. Mostly back in the 60’s. Everything I’m writing today I didn’t know then, I just dumped it in the tank and tried it. This isn’t a technical paper. You need a PHD to understand the chemical and physics of what is going on. I’m going to mention numbers that are reasonable approximations, but will give you a good idea what is going on.

SCTA rules for motorcycles and cars allow:
Gasoline

Anything other than gasoline runs in the fuel class.
Fuel
Unapproved gasoline.
Alcohol, Methanol in this case.
Nitromethane
Nitrous Oxide is also allowed and will be discussed last. It’s not a fuel, but is classified as one in the rule book.
And for cars only:
Hydrogen. I’m not going to cover hydrogen. If you are using it you already have a PHD and it’s too complex to cover here.

Diesel There is a separate class for diesel.

You can’t talk about fuel without getting a few related items out of the way.

The internal combustion engine is a heat engine. The heat is derived through a chemical reaction between the fuel and the oxygen in the air. The chemical reaction creates heat, and the heat causes the combustion gasses to expand and push the piston down. The chemical reaction is started by a source of ignition, a spark plug. It is important to realize that almost all of the work that is done to make an engine go faster is to get more air in the engine. Cams, valves, porting, polishing, etc. The power is limited by the air. Fuel you can pump in with a fire hose.

Air
Air is composed of 78 percent nitrogen and 21 percent oxygen. It’s the 21 percent oxygen that concerns you. The nitrogen just gets in the way. You can increase the percentage with nitrous oxide. We will get to that later.
You can’t change the percentage, but you can stuff more of it in with a supercharger or turbocharger. It doesn’t change the fuel equation and we won’t be discussing it here.
We won’t be discussing the effects of compression ratio either. Well, ok, just a little. The distance between molecules in an uncompressed fuel/air mix makes it very slow to burn. The more you compress the charge, the closer the molecules, the faster the burn, the more power you can get from it. The density of the fuel/air mixture is the subject of a great deal of interest throughout the racing world. The cooler the charge of fuel and air going into the engine, the denser it will be. And the denser it is, the more potential energy there is in each incoming charge.
But this discussion is mostly about fuel.

Gasoline
The first thing you have to realize is that saying “gasoline” is like saying “wine” and expect to describe all the different varieties, pinot, cabernet, merlot, etc. Like wine, there are unlimited variations. The formulation of the gasoline you buy for your car, or your race car, is unknown, and can change at any time. You have no way of knowing. Winter gasoline is different from summer gasoline. In cold climates gasoline has to be more volatile to ignite. In summer it has to be less volatile to avoid vapor lock. Gasoline of the exact same brand in one location is different from one 20 miles away. Very different.

Crude oil is a product of the remains of prehistoric plants and animals. After refining you end up with various blends of hydrocarbons, This consists of hydrogen atoms and carbon atoms in various combinations.

Gasoline can contain any number of hydrocarbons. Two examples:

A particular blend of gasoline can have 40 different hydrocarbons blended. And they all consist of hydrogen and carbon, generally nothing else.
To avoid a PHD in chemistry, we can boil it down to a couple of terms that are of value to the land speed racer.
BTU – A measure of heat.
Octane – A measurement of anti-knock properties.
Stochiometric Air/fuel ratio – The correct balance of air and fuel that will consume all of the fuel with all of the oxygen.
Heat of vaporization – How quickly it evaporates, and cools the engine.

BTU’s describe the heat output of a fuel
The heating value of fuel is the entire issue. The more heat you can produce, the faster it will go. (Until it melts.)
Look up British Thermal Unit if you want the specifics, It’s just a reference number here.
Gasoline (varies)       20,943 BTU’s/lb
Methanol                  9,770 BTU’s/lb
Nitromethane                     5,160 BTU’s/lb
If this was the only criteria, we would only run gasoline. But the fuel is useless without air.

Stochiometric Air/fuel ratio
To have the maximum power output we need to determine the correct amount of fuel to use with the air in the cylinder. Again, the engine can only suck in a given amount of air.
To determine how much fuel is needed for a given amount of air you need to analyze every hydrocarbon in the gasoline and determine the chemical bonds that are broken and reformed with the oxygen. We’re going to shorten the math and say the 14.7:1 by weight is the approximate correct ratio. 14.7 lbs of air to 1 lb of gasoline. Because of the way the fuel ignites in the cylinder under pressure maximum horsepower is generally achieved at ratios closer to 12:1. “Rich” in the fuel nomenclature. The mixture in contact with the relatively cold cylinder walls, the fuel that doesn’t get vaporized and stays as a droplet and other things keeps some of the fuel from being utilized. Your correct ratio can only be roughly determined on a dynamometer with final tuning at Bonneville on the salt.

The amount of air available to the engine varies with changes to altitude, temperature and humidity. The higher the altitude, the thinner the air, the hotter the air the thinner, and humidity displaces the air making less available. The air/fuel ratio stays the same. You have to determine how much air is available to you. This is where mass air flow sensors are used on the intake to determine how much air is going in, and oxygen sensors on the exhaust to determine if excess oxygen is going out. Don’t have them? Spark plug color is the key. The oil mixed with the gasoline in two strokes ruins oxygen sensors.
If you have more fuel than air, the mixture is considered “rich” and more oxygen than fuel would be “lean”.
So when we consider the correct fuel/air ratio:

Gasoline at 20,943 BTU’s/lb at 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio by mass equals 0.068 lbs of fuel/lb of air or 1415 BTU’s/lb of air.
For comparison:
Methanol 9,770 BTU’s/lb at 6.4 air/fuel ratio by mass equals 1527 BTU’s/lb of air. Methanol gets you about 22% more bang and runs cooler.
Nitromethane 5,160 BTU’s/lb at 1.7:1 air/fuel ratio by mass equals 3035 BTU’s/lb of air. Nitromethane gets you 123% more heat. It’s no wonder the top fuel drag racers use it.

Someone asked recently about the difference between MR8 and U2. These are VP racing fuels, and they make fine racing fuels, but other than octane rating, you can’t tell one from the other by the specifications. The heating value of fuel is what makes horsepower, not octane! Higher octane fuels may have a lower heating value and produce less horsepower.
ERC Racing Fuels does publish those figures and they are listed below. If you look at ERC 110K versus ERC A-8C, the octane rating is higher, but the heating value is lower. The higher heating value doesn’t do you any good if you can’t avoid detonation, or knock, so it’s a trade off. The low compression ratios of a two stroke work to your advantage in running a higher heating value fuel.


Octane
Gasoline engines prior to the 1930’s produced very low power due to the fact that gasoline has a high volatility and can ignite during the combustion process on its own. Diesel engines rely on this, gasoline engines don’t tolerate it. Various compounds are added to gasoline to prevent premature ignition. Leaded gasoline uses tetra-ethyl lead and other lead compounds. Unleaded gasoline uses methyl tertiary-butyl ether (MtBE) among others.

Octane is a fuel's ability to resist detonation and/or preignition. Octane is rated in Research Octane Numbers, (RON); Motor Octane Numbers, (MON); and Pump Octane Numbers (RON+MON/2 or R+M/2). Pump Octane Numbers are what you see on the yellow decal at gas stations, representing the average of the fuel's MON and RON. VP Racing Fuels uses MON because this test method more accurately simulates racing conditions. The conditions under which fuels are tested using the RON method are not as demanding, thus the number is normally higher than the MON rating. This leads many other fuel companies to rate their fuels using the RON in an effort to make them appear more resistant to detonation. Don't be fooled by high RON numbers or an average -- MONs are the most relevant ratings for a racing application. Be aware, however, the ability of fuel to resist detonation is a function of more than just octane.

Does higher octane mean more horsepower? No! The heating power of the fuel determines the horsepower, and higher octane fuels can have a lower heat value. Drat! More heat, more knock. Less knock, less power. Not necessarily. You do have to look at the heat value of the fuel, because if you don’t, the guy sailing past your record did! Read on for ways to deal with knock.

Combustion comes in three forms: Normal combustion, Pre-ignition, and detonation.

Under ideal conditions the internal combustion engine burns its fuel air mix in the cylinder in an orderly and controlled fashion. The combustion is started by the spark plug some 15–40 crankshaft degrees prior to TDC (top dead center) at the point of maximum compression. This ignition advance allows time for the combustion process to develop peak pressure at the ideal time for maximum recovery of work from the expanding gases. This point is typically 14–18 crankshaft degrees ATDC (after top dead center).

The spark plug produces an electrical spark that jumps a small gap from its center electrode to its ground electrode. This spark, if the air/fuel mix is within the flammable range for the fuel, initiates combustion. The initial phase forms a small kernel of flame approximately the size of the spark plug gap. For the first few milliseconds of the combustion process, this flame kernel is struggling to survive, producing only slightly more heat than is necessary to continue the combustion process. As it grows in size its heat output increases allowing it to grow even faster.

After this early slow burn phase passes, the flame kernel grows much faster expanding rapidly across the combustion chamber. This growth is due to the travel of the flame front through the combustible fuel air mix itself and due to turbulence rapidly stretching the burning zone into a complex of fingers of burning fuel air that have a much greater surface area than a simple spherical ball of flame would have. This greatly accelerates the combustion process.

In normal combustion, this flame front moves throughout the fuel air mix at a rate characteristic for the fuel-air mixture. Pressure rises smoothly to a peak, burning nearly all the available fuel then falls as the piston descends. In normal combustion this produces a rapid increase in cylinder pressure as the piston passes TDC and begins to move down the cylinder. As mentioned above in a properly tuned engine the maximum cylinder pressure is achieved a few crankshaft degrees after the piston passes TDC, so that the increasing pressure can give the piston a hard push when its speed and mechanical advantage on the crank shaft gives the best recovery of force from the expanding gases.

When we refer to mixture, we don’t mean air on one side and a cup of gasoline on the other. If you ignited a cup of gasoline it will burn a long time. The only gasoline that will burn is the surface that is in contact with the air. For the engine to achieve maximum power the liquid fuel has to be vaporized. The smaller the drop size, the more in contact with the air. Poor vaporization means that a lot of unburned fuel, and power, is going to go out the exhaust. Even if we had a perfectly vaporized mixture at the correct ratio, but uncompressed, we would have a hard time igniting it because of the distance between molecules. As we compress the mixture we put the molecules closer, and the heat of compression makes them more active and more readily able to combine. Higher compression generally leads to more horsepower, but other factors like detonation lead to limits on compression ratios.

Detonation “Knock”
The fuel/air mixture is normally ignited slightly before the point of maximum compression to allow a small time for the flame-front of the burning fuel to expand throughout the mixture so that maximum pressure occurs at the optimum point. The flame-front moves at roughly 33.5 m/second (110 feet/second) during normal combustion.
It is only when the remaining unburned mixture is heated and pressurized by the advancing flame front for a certain length of time that the detonation occurs. It is caused by an instantaneous ignition of the remaining fuel/air mixture in the form of an explosion. The cylinder pressure rises dramatically beyond its design limits and if allowed to persist detonation will damage or destroy engine parts.

Detonation can be prevented by:
The use of a fuel with higher octane rating
The addition of octane-increasing "lead", methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT), isooctane, or other antiknock agents.
Increasing the amount of fuel injected/inducted (resulting in lower Air to Fuel Ratio)
Reduction of cylinder pressure by increasing the engine revolutions (lower gear), decreasing the manifold pressure (throttle opening) or reducing the load on the engine, or any combination.
Reduction of charge (in-cylinder) temperatures (such as through cooling, water injection or compression ratio reduction).
Retardation of spark plug ignition.
Improved combustion chamber design that concentrates mixture near the spark plug and generates high turbulence to promote fast even burning.
Use of a spark plug of colder heat range in cases where the spark plug insulator has become a source of pre-ignition leading to detonation.
Correct ignition timing is essential for optimum engine performance and fuel efficiency. Modern automotive and small-boat engines have sensors that can detect knock and retard (delay) the ignition (spark plug firing) to prevent it, allowing engines to safely use gasoline of below-design octane rating, with the consequence of reduced power and efficiency.

A knock sensor consists of a small piezoelectric microphone, on the engine block, connected to the engine's ECU. Spectral analysis is used to detect the trademark frequency produced by detonation at various RPM. When detonation is detected the ignition timing is retarded, reducing the knocking and protecting the engine.

Pre-ignition
Pre-ignition is a different phenomenon from detonation, explained above, and occurs when the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder (or even just entering the cylinder) ignites before the spark plug fires. Pre-ignition is caused by an ignition source other than the spark. Heat or hot spots can buildup in engine intake or cylinder components due to improper design, for example, spark plugs with a heat range too hot for the conditions, or due to carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. Spark plugs with a high heat range will run hot enough to burn off deposits that lead to plug fouling in a worn engine, but the electrode of the plug itself can occasionally heat soak, and begin glowing hot enough to become an uncontrolled ignition source on its own. Bits of carbon that build up in a combustion chamber can also heat soak to the point where they also are glowing hot and ignite the air-fuel mixture before the proper time.

Pre-ignition and "dieseling" or "run on" are the same phenomenon, except in the latter case the engine continues to run after the ignition is shut off with a hot spot as an ignition source. Pre-ignition might cause rough running due to the advanced and erratic effective ignition timing and may cause noise if it leads to detonation. It may also cause "rumble" which is fast and premature but not detonating combustion.

This heat buildup can only be prevented by eliminating the overheating (through redesign or cleaning) or the compression effects (by reducing the load on the engine or temperature of intake air). As such, if pre-ignition is allowed to continue for any length of time, power output and fuel economy is reduced and engine damage may result. The engine might be slightly harder to get running at once after pre-ignition.

Pre-ignition may lead to detonation and detonation may lead to pre-ignition or either may exist separately.
Fuel heating
The proper air fuel ratio can auto-ignite if the fuel reaches a high enough temperature and pressure as described above. The opposite of this is a mixture that is too cold to ignite. The desired point is just short of auto-ignition. The inlet air needs to be cool to allow the maximum amount of air into the engine, but has to heat up rapidly to be effective. The fuel doesn’t need to be cold. Honda in the past heated the fuel in their F1 engine to 180 degrees F to maximize horsepower.

Fuel Storage
How long will the gasoline last if I don’t use it all? Gasoline will last a long time if stored properly, but it’s losing energy the entire time. Gasoline forms gum or varnish from the acids in the gasoline and from contact with the oxygen in the air and from the metal in the gas can. What is the scientific name for gum? Gum! I guess they couldn’t come up with something fancy.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 11:36:12 AM by Dean Los Angeles »
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2007, 11:06:18 AM »
Unapproved gasoline
What the heck is unapproved gasoline? Because gasoline is the primary fuel in motor vehicles, it is the primary fuel for racing. It is clear from the above that adding other chemicals to gasoline to raise the heating value or add oxygen would make your vehicle go faster. Enter the term “dielectric constant” Gasoline has a dielectric constant of around 2.025 (see below.) Anything added to the gasoline would change the reading and make it illegal, or unapproved gasoline.  Because it is not legal in the gasoline class, it is legal in the fuel class.
Because it is very time consuming to test every competitor, The SCTA at Bonneville and other venues, uses a fuel supplier to supply the same gas to every competitor. If an event uses event gas, anything else, even legal gasoline, is considered unapproved gasoline.

The dielectric constant (DC) of a substance is a measure of the relative effectiveness of that substance as an electrical insulator.  The perfect electrical insulator is a vacuum, which has a DC of 1.00000.  By comparison, air has a DC of 1.00059, almost the same as a vacuum, and water has a DC value of 78.2.  A dielectric meter measures the relative DC of gasoline by measuring the difference in capacitance of the probe between a standard (usually cyclohexane, with true DC value of 2.025) and the gasoline sample.
Is your fuel legal? This link is to PFTS Precision Fuel Testing Systems and their list of tested fuels. A guide only as the formulations change over time. 
http://www.ridgecrest.ca.us/~hideseng/dc_list.htm

Methanol Alcohol CH3OH
As mentioned before:
Gasoline      20,943 BTUs/lb       14.7:1 air/fuel ratio by mass   1415 BTU’s/lb of air.
Methanol      9,770 BTUs/lb       6.4:1 air/fuel ratio by mass    1527 BTU’s/lb of air

Methanol gets you about 22% more bang and runs cooler.

So if it has a lower heat value, why is it faster? Look at the air/fuel ratio. You can pump more than twice as much fuel for the same quantity of air. Notice in the chemical formula that methanol carries an oxygen molecule along with it. Methanol has a high heat of vaporization and the cooling effect is pronounced. On a cool day it is possible to have ice on the inlet.

Because of deaths due to gasoline fires in the Indianapolis 500 in the 1960’s, the fuel was changed to methanol due to its lower heat value. If you have ever seen an alcohol fire the only way to tell there is a fire is from the heat waves and the madly dancing guy that is getting burned. No visible flame in sunlight.

One of the drawbacks of methanol as a fuel is its corrosivity to some metals, including aluminum and magnesium. Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminum from corrosion. The resulting methoxide salts are soluble in methanol, resulting in clean aluminum surface, which is readily oxidized by some dissolved oxygen. Also the methanol can act as an oxidizer. So the corrosion continues until the metal is eaten away. It’s important to run gasoline at the end of the event to clean out the methanol.

What about other alcohols? Ethanol and the other alcohols are all legal, but none offer the power output of methanol.

 
Nitromethane CH3NO2
Gasoline      20,943 BTUs/lb       14.7:1 air/fuel ratio by mass   1415 BTU’s/lb of air.
Methanol      9,770 BTUs/lb       6.4:1 air/fuel ratio by mass    1527 BTU’s/lb of air
Nitromethane       5,160 BTUs/lb       1.7:1 air/fuel ratio by mass    3035 BTU’s/lb of air.

The most power available to the land speed racer is with nitromethane. It’s not just the higher BTU’s/lb of air, notice the O2 molecule attached. Nitromethane brings oxygen to the party!
Nitromethane has a laminar combustion velocity somewhat higher than gasoline, thus making nitromethane suitable for high speed engines. It also has a somewhat higher flame temperature of about 2400 °C. The high heat of vaporization of 0.56 MJ/kg together with the high fuel flow provides significant cooling of the incoming charge (about twice that of methanol), resulting in reasonably low temperatures. In a Top Fuel drag racing engine this alone will provide the cooling of the engine, as the cylinder heads are machined from solid pieces of aluminum billet with no water jackets.

Most engines won’t survive 100% nitromethane. Nitromethane isn’t even 100%. It contains 2% benzene. The normal combination is a blend of methanol and nitromethane. When someone increases the amount of nitromethane it’s referred to as “tipping the can”.

The specific gravity of pure nitromethane  is 1.139 @ 60-70° F. CH3NO2.   The specific gravity of methanol is .792 @ 68° F.  It is simple to determine the percentage of nitromethane in alcohol by measuring the specific gravity of the mixture.  Adding nitromethane to alcohol will increase its specific gravity. 

The procedure is only slightly complicated by the fact that temperature affects the specific gravity, since any fluid expands as it is warmed, and therefore has a lower specific gravity when warming occurs. For example, a 60% mixture of nitromethane and methanol when heated expands. The mixture is still 60%, yet the specific gravity is decreased.

Mixing nitromethane with methanol creates a mild endothermic reaction which absorbs heat from the mixture, thus, cooling the mixture (opposite of most reactions, which usually give off heat). The maximum affect is with about a 50% mixture, which cools approximately 15° F. The hydrometer reading has to be matched to the fuel temperature, not the air.

FUEL TEST CHART
Test hydrometer reads 100% at 68° in known pure nitro.
TEMPERATURE OF FUEL- (°F)
True 100% Nitromethane
   40° 50°  60°  68° 70° 80° 90° 100° 110° 120
   106 104 102 100 99   97   94   92    90     87

Nitrous Oxide N2O
Although classifed as a fuel by SCTA, it is an oxidizer with no fuel content. The fuel classification made it easy to prevent the usage in the gasoline class.
As noted above, air is 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. When nitrous oxide decomposes, a single mole will release 1/2 mole of oxygen gas, allowing an oxygen saturation of 33% to be reached. Air, which contains only 21% oxygen, permits a maximum saturation of only 21%. This oxygen combines with hydrocarbons such as gasoline, alcohol, and diesel fuel to produce carbon dioxide and water vapor, which expand and exert pressure on pistons. The greater the oxygen saturation, the higher the pressure and the greater the power released. However, peak cylinder pressure alone does not determine engine performance.

Nitrous oxide is stored as a liquid in tanks, but because of its low boiling point it will vaporize when it enters a cylinder during the intake stroke. As it boils, the cylinder temperature will drop, reducing the pressure during the compression stroke and thus reducing power loss. This drop in intake manifold temperature also increases the density of the air/fuel charge, thereby increasing the cylinder's volumetric efficiency.

When N2O breaks down to release oxygen, nitrogen (N2) is also formed. Nitrogen gas contains molecules with extremely stable triple bonds, and so the formation of nitrogen is very exothermic. Because N2 is generated during the engine's power stroke, nitrous boosts power by increasing the temperature inside the cylinder by the formation of diatomic nitrogen.

The decomposition of nitrous oxide results in formation of nitrogen and oxygen according to the following reaction equation:
N2O(g) —> N2(g) + ½O2(g) + Heat
At standard conditions this exothermic reaction generates ~82kJ of heat per mole of nitrous oxide. However, heat input is required to initiate the reaction. In the case of thermal decomposition the activation energy barrier for nitrous oxide is about 250kJ/mole.  Therefore, in order to attain the required reaction rates, the gas must be heated to above 1832°F.
The point of this is that the energy from the oxygen isn’t released until above 1832°F. This makes for a slower, more manageable combustion.

Why not use pure oxygen? Releasing pure oxygen to the same 33% level isn’t the same. The oxygen is immediately available and the result is an explosion instead of controlled combustion.

The air/fuel ratio is not affected by nitrous oxide. For gasoline it’s still 14.7:1. Because of the higher concentration of oxygen with nitrous oxide, a corresponding increase in the amount of fuel is necessary. Everything said above about fuel remains the same, you are just adding more oxygen, which allows more fuel, in the correct ratio, to get more power. Nitrous jargon is full of non-terms like “100 shot” that might mean a baseline run was made without nitrous, and with nitrous that particular engine and jetting got 100 more horsepower. Unless you run a dyno pass on your engine it doesn’t mean anything. I ran a 500 shot on my lawnmower, and man, does it cut grass!

Can you run nitromethane, nitrous oxide, and a turbo? Sure! But you better have a big spare parts budget!
Diesel
There is a separate class for diesel fueled engines. If you think diesel is a second cousin to racing engines, maybe you missed the fact that a diesel engine won the 24 hours of Le Mans!
The diesel engine is a type of internal combustion engine; more specifically, it is a compression ignition engine, in which the fuel is ignited by being suddenly exposed to the high temperature and pressure of a compressed gas, rather than by a separate source of ignition, such as a spark plug, as is the case in the gasoline engine.
Diesel fuel offers 12% more BTU’s/lb of air than gasoline. It is just a different mix of petroleum hydrocarbons. Instead of octane rating, we use cetane. The cetane number or CN is a measure of the combustion quality of diesel fuel via the compression ignition process.

Properties of hydrocarbons:
http://www.me.mtu.edu/~slpost/CLASS/hcprop.html

I found this chart for acetylene, but you could easily say gasoline and the numbers would relate. Note the difference in flame temperature. 400 degrees increase with nitrous oxide, 740 degrees with oxygen. The flame speed shows the real difference. Nitrous oxide is in the upper range of air, oxygen is several magnitudes higher and instead of a flame front you get an explosion, and the engine won’t take that kind of stress.
                                         Temperature   Flame Speed
Fuel              Oxidant          ( C )              ( m/s )
Acetylene       Air                2400              1.60 - 2.70
                    Nitrous Oxide  2800              2.60
                    Oxygen          3140              8.00 - 24.80

Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2007, 01:25:11 PM »
Thanks for your re-posting on the fuel listings. There is a lot of good info in the post.  :-D

I had previously referred a young man to the site and that particular post just as the crash happened. :x

Just contacted him again and told him it was back up. 8-)

Thanks for all the library work. You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. :wink:

Regards to All,
HB2
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Offline kiwi

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2007, 05:02:02 PM »
Thanks for the post Dean. It is very informative.
If you were trying to get a 30% to 50% power increase with fuel, do you think it would be easier on the engine using Nitromethane or Nitrous Oxide?

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2007, 06:15:23 PM »
Quote
do you think it would be easier on the engine using Nitromethane or Nitrous Oxide?
We are talking about setting a land speed record, right? You know you have built the ultimate land speed engine when several microinches past the finish line it explodes. Anything else means you left power sitting in the tool box.

As you increase the heat value of the fuel, the entire drive train feels the push. Both allow more rpm because of the additional oxygen. The valve train suffers from the additional strain. Both put you in the fuel class. Both are expensive. Both require a learning curve. Run both!

Actually, you have to examine your engine and see how much strain it was built for. Built-for-racing parts will take more than stock parts.

If you did run both you could be looking at more hp per cubic inch than top fuel. In between is some happy medium that gets you a record.
Gasoline and nitrous oxide is a pretty popular combination. I'd run methanol and nitrous oxide. If that doesn't kill it you can start adding nitromethane.

You don't have to run pure nitromethane. nitromethane and methanol in combination can be run in any ratio. RC  airplanes are running 20% nitromethane and methanol.

Both methanol and nitromethane may not be compatible with o-rings, gaskets, etc.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline JGMagoo

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2007, 09:59:45 PM »
One thing I have personally observed about nitrous oxide is that the additional power is INSTANTANEOUS when you hit the switch. I was using a 150-HP, single stage plate system which is admittedly somewhat crude. Never tried any fancy staged systems. (Drag racing)

I'm wondering if that sudden 'bang'  when the nitrous hits might be a bit of a handling issue on the salt at high speed.

 :? :?

JGMagoo
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Offline JackD

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2007, 11:38:14 PM »
In a well circulated video, Don Sherman from Car and Driver hit the button over 200 and the ground effects on the Mazda instantly became sky effects as it changed direction.
Too often in the wrong hands, NOS is like reading by the light from a grenade.  :wink:
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Offline russ jensen

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2007, 12:20:36 AM »
Nice rundown on basic fuels:but I am still curious bout hydrazine??Did you mix w/ alky& nitro or w/ nitro only- What was problem w / it?? does the  H without any C give the same super flame speed like O2?? buddy {told me is still outlawed in model plane comp} to look  @ it it isn't that much dif {Liguid instead of gas} than anhydrous ammonia- which is being set up to run in diesel so as not to produce that terrible co2 exh emission just H2o..The ground shaken part from previous post got my attn..russ
speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2007, 12:29:06 AM »
One problem with nitro in small motors is you main jet gets larger than you float needle and seat. :evil:
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 01:03:54 AM »
A small amount of hydrazine blended in nitromethane can increase the power output even further. With nitromethane, over time hydrazine forms an explosive salt that can combust by using only the oxygen in the nitromethane.
Just like nitroglycerine, an insignificant impact can cause an explosion.

Anhydrous ammonia (anhydrous means without water. Household ammonia is about 30% ammonia and water.) is just another choice in the long list of chemicals you could run in an engine. Since hydrazine and ammonia and everything else not listed as "approved" by SCTA can't be put in the tank there isn't much point in discussing it.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline JackD

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2007, 01:19:03 AM »
One problem with nitro in small motors is you main jet gets larger than you float needle and seat. :evil:
A second inlet to the float bowl is operated via the butterfly shaft with an adjustable cam.
It is adjusted to allow slightly less than the demand with the needle and seat only providing part of the flow to maintain the level.
An overflow to a catch can will have a slight amount of fuel if the secondary inlet is adjusted correctly.
Early indy cars used a floatless side draft carb that had the gravity return at the desired level.

  :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2007, 01:24:39 AM »
Jack as always your advice is right on, but that is sometimes hard to do with a small motorcycle carb.
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline russ jensen

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2007, 01:44:09 AM »
About Fuel
Racing is all about fuel.

Anything other than gasoline runs in the fuel class.

 .

If you run the fuel class I was under the impression that what you put in the tank was your own business..russ
speed is expensive-how fast do you want to go?-to soon old & to late smart.

Offline JackD

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2007, 02:07:44 AM »
Jack as always your advice is right on, but that is sometimes hard to do with a small motorcycle carb.

NOPE
The parts are sized and adjusted to the demand.
Have you ever seen a Mikuni type with no float bowl and the inlet line attached directly to the former jet location ?
The slide needle regulated the flow as the slide traveled with it .
Does anybody remember the Posi-Fuel ?
S+S of the forbidden HD case fame makes a carb with the butterfly and cam I mentioned.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline kiwi

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Re: About Fuel
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2007, 02:14:45 AM »
Jack as always your advice is right on, but that is sometimes hard to do with a small motorcycle carb.
The carbs they use on the speedway solo bikes now, don't have a float bowl. They are a 36mm flat slide down draft carb and could be worth looking at if you want a small carb that can flow lot of fuel.