Author Topic: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics  (Read 14516 times)

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Offline JackD

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2007, 02:50:47 PM »
Citing the statics for the transportation accident and fatality numbers against any form of racing those same vehicles is an invalid argument.
The accident and fatality RATE is the important number that offers a valid result.
The rules should be tailored to the sport and the nature of the entries.
Comparison to other forms and formats will also help one to understand where they stand.
Fail that and it is no more than "The blind leading the deaf." :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline narider

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2007, 03:03:17 PM »
build as best as you can, bring it for inspection, ask the veterans their input while on the salt with the vehicle (just for inspection), write a list of concerns you may have, ask questions and dont be afraid to not run the vehicle.


I took my current bike to the track and had it looked at and teched 3 different meets(for safety and class) before I ever ran it. Two of the times were simply for different officials and teams I wanted to have look it over class wise(and ok, or not ok it)... and the first time was before I ever had the motor running simply as a safety inspection(i was extremely confident beforehand, but I was fully confident afterwards as I made two of the inspectors look it over more then they actually wanted to at the time).

If I were to build a streamliner, the first thing I would do is list the people I want to try to get their experience, help and/or opinions from... and be willing to pay for it. The three that pop into my head first and foremost are Jack D., Joe T., and Kent R.(whether they would help me is another story?), but I would make that my largest effort as well as my deciding factor for the direction of the whole project).
Todd

Offline RichFox

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2007, 03:04:41 PM »
I bet that if I wanted to get a really good idea of how to build a safe Bonneville car, I would talk to Mike Cook. I am sure there are plenty of others that could tell me just as much, but Mike just seems to come to mind. It would be more informative than movies I bet.

Offline narider

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2007, 03:11:00 PM »
Fail that and it is no more than "The blind leading the deaf." :wink:

Is this a bad thing if where you're going is dark?:|
Todd

Offline fastesthonda_jim

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2007, 11:58:05 PM »
Personally Diven I think you pose an excellent question and as for obscene... Bvillercr's response is just that.  It just amazes me that the why's of accidents are not reported in detail.  And complete with pictures and videos, as well as post crash analysis.

"Build to the rulebook and you'll be okay"???  I don't think so, Tim.  True you will be a large step in the direction of surviving an accident, but how about preventing the accident in the first place?  Watch the video of Burkdoll's accident and then scour the rulebook to see if there is a standard for how high to mount your parachute and/or what angle to have it deploy.  Then there was the lakester, I think, maybe a liner, that crashed so bad at El Mirage a year or so ago.  Nowhere in the rulebook is there a spec on CG vs. tread of front axle, as compared to tread of rear axle and the potential for instability. 

We are ALL prototyping out there.  Every run is a test run.  Every run is a dance with the Devil.  You'd think we'd all cooperate (within the limits of not revealing speed secrets) to. if nothing else, keep the course clean of scattered crash parts so the next guy in line doesn't have a problem.  Or at least doesn't have to sit in his fire suit for an hour while the ambulance returns.

Jim

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Bonneville "2" Club 2003
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Bonneville Records: G/GS, F/GS (Boy)  G/FS (Girl)
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2007, 12:35:29 AM »
Quote
We are ALL prototyping out there.  Every run is a test run.  Every run is a dance with the Devil.

Unfortunately so is the issue of photo documentation of accidents.

First a little background -- I have been interested in crash mechanics since I was in my teens when a girl I went to high school with was killed in a car crash a couple weeks after graduation. The Wrecker at the service station I worked for, was number 2 in line for call that night, so save that lucky break I would have been called out to recover her crushed car. Over the next few days I spent some time examining the wreckage and it was clear even to a 17 year old that many minor changes in the structure of that could would have increased her chance of survival. That also led to deciding to study mechanical engineering in college. Working on a wrecker I saw first hand a great many crashes and the multitude of ways that the structure fails during crashes. Years passed and I spent 14 years working for the Office of Emergency Management here in Colorado and spent 5 years on a mountain rescue team. In that time it was clear that the one thing that is never properly documented is the accident itself. Everyone is too involved in the actual emergency response. After I left the State, I worked with a local volunteer fire dept. and followed them around for over a year taking pictures of their emergency responses from the perspective of an emergency responder. Many times I had to deal with the irrational reaction of others who could not imagine there was a legitimate reason to take pictures of an accident. They were so brain washed by the sensationalization of some of our media friends, that they immediately assumed the worst. Two years into that project, I was taking pictures of a fatal roll over near my house and just at the key moment when the pickup truck was to be lifted off the victims a highway patrol officer stepped in front of me and blocked the shot. Making some totally bogus claim that it was not allowed. A few days later I was contacted by the County district attorney asking about the pictures I had taken --- seems they needed exactly the shot I was prevented from taking to prove who was driving the truck when it rolled. They were also very unhappy that the State Patrol officer prevented the photo from being taken.

They were not able to convict the survivor because that key photo was unavailable.

There is a great deal to be learned from post crash photos of the cars structure. Things like brackets that were severely stressed but held. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Did they hold because of good design or dumb luck. Were they severely stressed due to poor design, and their construction or simply exposed to overwhelming and reasonably expected forces.

Sometimes you learn the most from the things that almost failed but yielded dramatically. Some times crash forces are re-directed through the structure to distant locations you would not even consider.

That said, I understand the emotional reaction of those that think there is some evil intent for anyone who wants to know why and how. If I or a friend was severely hurt or killed in a racing accident I would damn well want every person involved in the sport to have access to any lessons learned from my "experiment".

We will never get to the level of examination seen in incidents like the Earnhardt accident, simply because the money and resources are not available, nor can the first responders devote time to that documentation during the rescue phase. I understand that there is crash investigation performed but how available it is outside the higher levels of the sponsoring organization I do not know.

The last problem is that as soon as you take those pictures and prepare that summary, you become subject to being involved in legal actions that might follow as was my case with the fatal accident. They asked if I would show them the pictures, but they could just as easily have subpoenaed them. My court appearance was not optional either, so we have to be aware of the legal exposures created by that sort of access and documentation.

If joe blow racer can see all the details so can joe blow attorney who might be tasked with finding someone to blame for what happened. Its a sad state of affairs when that sort of legal action stifles obvious and reasonable efforts to investigate cause and effect.

Larry

dwarner

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2007, 08:32:15 AM »
"Watch the video of Burkdoll's accident and then scour the rulebook to see if there is a standard for how high to mount your parachute and/or what angle to have it deploy."

I think that the rule book cannot detail every vehicle regards parachute mounting, etc. Is a lakester the same as a '67 Camero or '48 Crosley? Is the wheelbase/weight/CG/CP the same for every vehicle?  The rule book does ask you to contact the manufacturer of your safety equipment, they know best.

DW

Offline fastesthonda_jim

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2007, 09:03:57 AM »
Interesting stuff, Larry.  Who was it, Shakespere, I think who said something like, "First kill all the lawyers."?  I bet you they do "accident investigation" as to why they lost a case. 

And, Dan, my point exactly.  The rule book cannot cover each and every vehicle and each and every bracket and still allow innovation.  It seems to me that it's sort of a "The less said the better" sort of feeling because after all after spending 14 hours a day on the salt for two weeks and for $0, who wants to spend time in court?

BTW, Dan, the Bearcat had only 20 or so lbs of oil pressure, not enough to trigger the V-tec, so Jeanne went 230 or so on only 175-180hp.  A can of STP would have gotten the hat.  Dooohhh!  (_8(|)

Jim
2006 SCTA High Points Champeen
2006 Dirty "2" Wrench Of The Year
Bonneville "2" Club 2003
El Mirage Dirty "2"'s 2006
Bonneville Records: G/GS, F/GS (Boy)  G/FS (Girl)
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Offline narider

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2007, 09:56:06 AM »
The rule book is not there to take credit or blame for our outcomes, only to smack us upside the head and say "think"(of course it has to protect the organization that governs, that's what it's there for - some people want to clarify things that could do more damage then good in the long run)!

If those guys(and gals:roll:) that make progress in safety or performance advances as well as those the screw up from safety or performance deficiencies, were more willing to share their experiences(and let's not forget those on the receiving end being more willing to listen of course)... then there would be less rules needed for us to question, clarify and rely on.
 
I think what Jason is doing here(whether he knows it or not), is on some level what all us newbies(new to our next project at hand) should be doing... that is looking for answers he doesn't have questions to so he can learn the right questions to ask himself. There's plenty of "old salts" here that have tremendous experience if we would be willing to read between the lines(it's not their job to make us understand them), and there's even some of the "newbies" that don't mind sharing their "screw ups, outcomes and new found knowledge" in hopes that it will help others(no matter how embarrassing it would seem to those that see themselves as more able and venerated then others).
IE(just to name a few as of late):
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2510.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2489.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2533.0.html

Dad Land used to share his trial and tribulations so very freely here and elsewhere(just his trips getting to the salt were more than many could endure before ever making an attempt to unload)..... and by doing that he taught me alot about perseverance in some very simple posts that most people would never be willing to share or admit to(which he'll forever have my respect for just that gesture alone).
Todd

Offline the randy dero

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2007, 06:24:18 AM »
As a "newbie", I agree with Jason. I would like to be racing, but first I'd have to build a car. Before starting the build I'd be asking lots of questions. Jason, myself  and so many others are in the same boat. Jason may have asked an awkward question but his point is, how do we do it? The rulebook gives fire bottle sizes and tube sizes for the roll cage and but precious little else. I saw a mention somewhere of a "pencil roll". Can anybody tell me what this is?
Jim, how've you been? When will we see you at Lake Gairdner again?

Offline JackD

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2007, 09:54:14 AM »
"Pencil roll" ?
Imagine the actions of a pencil if you tossed it out a window of a car while underway.
It's shape, center of gravity, and center of pressure are going to have a particular characteristic.
Imagine the forces the body is going to see if strapped inside.
As a comparison, toss a dart or target arrow and observe the actions that are a result of a CG and CP that is more suited to the need.
The heavy nose is going to want to go up front and the feathers on the tail are going to want to be in the back.
That will result in a more stable flight and reduce tumble as it comes to a stop.
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline mkilger

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2007, 11:25:35 AM »
most of the crashs that glen and I have been on over the years at bonneville and elmo all have had head injurys, (most of them not all) you must  have the right head room in your car  aound the helmet top bottom sides ect. and the car s must be build out of good cold roll steel, should be DOM not fence pipe.  speed has alot to do with it also, if you go 125- or 175- 250 its the same out come when you come to rest. With the new head suport rule next year  and a good roll bar checker (for thickness) the cars and drivers sould be a bit more safer. 

Offline Richard Thomason

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2007, 12:00:07 PM »
Pencil roll? AKA sky-ground, sky-ground, sky-ground ad infinitum. If it's really a doozy, you can end up with pink eye and other tell-tale effects from the centrifigal forces.

Offline fastesthonda_jim

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2007, 01:08:08 PM »
Well, as not a newbie, I'm a bit confused.  I thought a "pencil roll" was specific to liners because they looked mostly like pencils and like pencils, when they get a little sideways they tend to tip over... and over and over and over, rolling sideways down the salt like a pencil rolls across a table, not bouncing end over end.

Clarification anyone?

Jim (#1 for 17 more days) Knapp

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2006 SCTA High Points Champeen
2006 Dirty "2" Wrench Of The Year
Bonneville "2" Club 2003
El Mirage Dirty "2"'s 2006
Bonneville Records: G/GS, F/GS (Boy)  G/FS (Girl)
El Mirage Records: F/BFS, F/FS, F/GS, I/FS, I/GS, K/BGS
FIA Records A, II, 8
Unlimited License
300mph line qualified (305.129 best mile speed)
The older half of San Diego's Fastest Couple
2016 Man of Distinction Award
DLRA 2019 Top Speed of The Meet (309.438 Mile - 323.3 GPS)

Offline mkilger

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Re: Fatal and serious injury crashes statistics
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2007, 02:19:59 PM »
just remember, its all bad when the car leaves the ground, a little air under the car makes them fly then crash and start rolling over and over. It seems to me that Comp coupes and mod sports have had a hard time over the years. but its just what I have noted over the time  I maned the ERT at bonneville .