Author Topic: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle  (Read 11249 times)

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Offline JackD

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2007, 01:39:26 PM »
Bigga Knifea Switcha Industries probably has everything you need, and not necessarily what you want. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
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Offline Glen

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2007, 02:00:50 PM »
Geeze, Jack goes across the pond to merry old England and still can't use proper English.  :evil:
Glen
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Offline EVguru

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2007, 05:56:46 PM »
I did not mean to imply that the 75mph record was a pathetic attempt, but instead that 75mph would be considered pathetic by the average motorcycle rider. After all that's the kind of speed you would expect out of the 12bhp restricted version of the Cagiva Mito 125 (my 1966 Morini Corsaro 125 had a published top speed of 70mph). And yes I do know there is a vast difference between a theoretical top speed and the kind of flying mile record you could post. In the context of many 150+mph production bikes, 75mph is pretty pathetic.

I really do apologize for leaving out 'Volta' the school built 500Kg class LSR vehicle. I think it was a splendid effort, but I kind of feel it rather makes my point about the Bluebird team at the time they set the 136mph record. Volta was simple and it worked. They didn't run before the could walk.

Bluebird were a professional team, that is people were paid money to design, build, and run the car/s. To start with they were very unprofessional in how the team was run. No one was in control of costs, parts would be ordered by motorcycle courier, rather than actually planning ahead so they could come in the post. Sponsorship deal were written that COST the team money. There was a lot of politics and empire building in the team. How do I know this? Because I was at a meeting with the person who took over management of the team. He was original in charge of a TV production company who were making a documentary about the team, but realised they weren't going to get it unless someone stepped in and picked up the pieces.

Fundamentally the car had a drive system that simply didn't work properly. A spectacular example of this was when the Sheffield University Motors and Drives group brought their Formula 3 car along to a private Hawker batteries event. The torque at stall was practically zero and it had to be pushed off the line. Its pass down the track was then amongst the slowest of the day. Only a standard milkfloat and a 1898 Kreiger taxi were slower. Why a second car needed to be built, when the main problem was the power train, I don't know. Surely the power train should have been sorted out, or the system dumped and one that was actually reliable fitted. Zytek, who supply engine managment to F1 and many other formulae got the Sheffield motor to work well with their controller. It was only propshaft problems and the inability to put in a fast qualifying lap that prevented the Panoz Q9 from making and impact at LeMans with Zytek hybrid drive.

I had to deal with a lot of bad publicity from the Bluebird attempts, particularly as they had been getting national press interest from their confident claims to crack 300mph. Maybe I am too critical, but it was a bad time to be promoting electric vehicles. Wouldn't you expect a purpose built streamliner with 300hp to do rather better?


I have built many vehicles, though not any LSR projects. I developed a Porsche 914 EV, Clare Bell's #13 to the point where it would keep pace with (and pass) 3 series beemers, RX7s, 911s, etc. running in a NASA event around the Firebird circuit and do so over a 15 lap distance (sadly we were eliminated from the actual EV race, which we had a VERY good chance of winning, when a fail safe system, failed safe!). In testing on the runways at Alameda we had an indicated 135mph with the power turned down to a nominal 35Kw. 


Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2007, 08:32:22 PM »
that was kinda a lame apology there mister..... so maybe the bluebird project was mismanaged, thanks for enlightening us, but there performance, although not to your standards, was not pathetic... it would be like me saying your NASA project, although poised for a win, was pathetic.. ya see what i mean? so swallow your tea and chew your crumpet and say it..... oh and one more thing your pancake motor that turns 3800 rpm , golf cart controller, and lead acid batteries will NOT go 100mph
love ya
Kent

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2007, 11:08:06 PM »
I love PROjections. I live for PREdictions. I love the salt and it's gremlins. I love engine and chassis dynos. I love 6:00am and my generator won't start to heat the engine. I love the wind. I love the rain. I love salt in the 'lectrical connections. I love "I'm gonna."

Some need time to learn to take what the LSR venue will give.

In the center of our steering wheel it says "Have Fun-Go Fast"  If your not having fun.....you won't go fast.....Good Luck
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline guttley782

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2007, 04:09:34 AM »
I agree with Kent and Malcolm. I was told by the British LSR holder that no matter how fast I went, it was the actual fact that I was "having a go" that counted. For the same reason I never criticised the Isle Of Man until I had raced there (the fact that I did not criticise it afterwards is irrelevant!). No project ever runs without problems or limitations. Bonneville is probably the ultimate test bed, and all other achievements anywhere in the world are to be applauded for their effort.
An eccentric Englishman building a motorcycle streamliner with the help of a few friends!

Offline EVguru

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2007, 09:32:31 AM »
So the Professional Bluebird team spent an awful lot of other peoples money and failed to equal the performance of machines built over 30 years ago.

I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree on our opinions of the achievements of a pro team compared to the efforts of amateurs slaving away to the wee small hours, fueled mainly on a mixture of enthusiasm, bloodymindedness, coffee, and beer, as opposed to cash.

The motorsport press, the newspapers and some of the sponsors thought it was pretty poor too.


However since you feel I've been unjustly critical in my judgments, I'm sorry I made the slightest slur against anyone's efforts.


Offline EVguru

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2007, 09:45:50 AM »
Quote
oh and one more thing your pancake motor that turns 3800 rpm , golf cart controller, and lead acid batteries will NOT go 100mph

Really, tell my why?

I never said just one motor.

72Kw is not a golf car controller and I never said just one.

Up until White Lightning, most LSR EVs were lead acid as is John Wayland's 12 second Datsun, Denis Berube's mini rail, and Bill's bike before he went lithium.

In fact, here ya go;

http://www.nedra.com/100mph_club.html#agnus

Offline Sumner

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2007, 10:12:58 AM »
How about this one that ran at BUB last year??

Sum


Offline JackD

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2007, 10:59:15 AM »
I like the pioneering spirit of most of the EV bunch that not only don't take "NO" for an answer but see "CAN'T" as a real challange.
Friends like ED R. Jim Ludiker. Lloyd Healy , come to mind.
On the other hand, the Kenwood-Panasonic star studded show, wouldn't run over your foot. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2007, 05:46:26 PM »
My favorite memory of the Kenwood fiasco (probably enhanced by time) was late one afternoon.

Teague was gonna run the long, long course -- maybe starting back at the truck stop.  And it was announced that the starting line was cleared and everyone in the pits have heads up.

Here comes the whole Kenwood crew from their back corner up to the course side of the pits.  You could here Al starting and warming up.  They're all setting up their titanium tri-pods, snapping on 5 zillion mm lenses, running cords here and there, jockeying for position.

Al starts out, thundering towards us.  After a while he takes one of those patented 5-second shifts, and before you know it roars by.  They're still setting up their titanium tri-pods, snapping on 5 zillion mm lenses, running cords here and there, jockeying for position.  Gooda photographers as electric car teams.
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club"

Offline Glen

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2007, 05:53:28 PM »
How about when the wind came up and turned their circus sized canopy into a big kite. There must have been 20 or 30 5 foot tall people trying to jump up and grab it as the wind was about to lift it into orbit. Us yanks save the day by rushing over to help, it was a pretty funny sight.
Glen :-D
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Offline JackD

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2007, 11:47:22 PM »
To put it at a proper work height for their properly attired workers they put it up on real fancy stands.
When the rains came, they covered it with a properly made and fitted tarp.
The rain bounced off the ground so hard that it put salt laden water in from the bottom that was worse than just rain from the top.
I have long ago used up the batteries put I still have 1 of their copper bottomed cookware sets unopened.
We did a commercial with them and it featured Panasonic Crew radios.
To make a long story short, My kid pounded the director into the ground just as he finished slapping a girl that was loaded down with spare lenses :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Electric Land Speed Motorcycle
« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2007, 04:12:28 PM »
After the Kenwood stories may I tell you about the British Motorcycle 'solo' LSR record holder and his achievements?

Alan Rogan used a single DC aircraft jet starter motor as the drive source and lead acid batteries contained the power.  He achieved his records in October 1990.  The bike was cleverly made using alloy side plates to act as the chassis and to hold the batteries.  Now just think what was happening in your technology field 17 years ago ....

Alan's record speeds were 89.95 mph (for the flying start 1/4 mile two way runs), 83.77 mph (for the flying start kilo two way runs) and 76.53 mph (for the flying start 1 mile two way runs).  All set the same weekend on the 1.9 total distance length of Elvington Airfield.

Now back to Bluebird Electricthe car(s):
EV Guru tells us that "Because I was at a meeting with the person who took over management of the team. He was original in charge of a TV production company who were making a documentary about the team, but realised they weren't going to get it unless someone stepped in and picked up the pieces".

Perhaps we should know what 'get it' refers to?  I do not think even the team manager had enough money to build a 300 mph plus International record car.

However, after filming the setting records for the UK at Elvington in the over 1000kg class in BE 1, the 'new management' built a second car weighing in at under that weight (it came in class 2) and set records on a few visits to the beach that EV Guru derided.  They made their bids at Pendine Sands on 3 and 3/4 miles of sand (some of it soft) between tides.  The technology in BE2 was the same as the first car - space frame chassis, glass fibre body, hub motors driving rear wheels only.  An interesting decision, if EV Guru is told that the hub motors were not suited to the task in BE 1.

As to £4M spend we did not see any substantiation for the claim for this sum of money.  I doubt that any team could have spent that much within the UK, unless the management were on a good salary for the length of the bid.  Even British and International LSR is not in the F1 class of spending!

As to the contempt that EV Guru seems to apply to a 'professional team' (and the speeds and records that they attained), do remember that the driver and figure head of the Bluebird programme is a professional photographer by trade.  He is not an engineer, car designer or builder or hot rodder.  As the Grandson of Sir Malcolm Campbell all that he has inherited is the speed gene and he wants to drive as fast as his grandfather, but instead of 27 liters of RR aircraft V12 engine he wants to do the same speeds (over 301 mph) using electric power.  To achieve his goals he does need the help of a loyal (some of whom are very good friends of mine) operating crew. 

Malcolm
 
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.