Blue Flame/Thrust 2 issue?

[Gazza]

Hi all

I was just reviewing the wiki list of LSR records and noticed that the km times were quicker than the mile for both cars. My understanding is that the record defaults to whichever is the quickest time of the 2 distances allowing for the difference in distances of course hence producing the fastest speed. Using the faster km runs for both cars it appears that there is approx only half a percent increase in Thrust 2's speed. I don't know when the 1% rule for speeds needing to be higher to break the record came but if it preceded the record runs then it appears to disqualify Thrust 2? Thrust 2 is listed in the official FIA record list.

I've just cross-referenced Noble's THRUST book and BF is down for 622 mph, the mile time, so why not the km time of 630 mph from which BF would have retained the record?

[PorkPie]

Get it clarified

some base rules under FIA (or the former organisations, which was the same but with a different name)

1. two directions....this rule is now for more than 110 years...reason was...a Mr Rolls thought, driving a 12 percent downhill is a good idea to set a record didn't make the organisation happy.
    before was only one way, the USA ignored this two way rule and still run into the 20's one way...which explained that some fast runs wasn't certified by the organisation in Paris

2. the 1 hour turn around is in the rule book since 1935, before it was only 30 minutes...the reason of the change from 30 min to 1 h is the first attempt of Malcolm Campbell at Bonneville.
    he run before at the Daytona Beach under the 30 min, the tire was designed for the beach and there was no reason to change the tire, other at Bonneville, after one run the tires were   
    destroyed and a change was necessary, but not possible in 30 minutes...so the organisation allowed 1 hour and it stays to today

3. the 1 percent rule, actually it is not really known when this rule became part of the rule book...historian saying in 1920's....but there is no confirmation....the reason was simple the issue of
    the quality of the timing...with the faster speed the time behind the point became an issue....to be sure that the new record was really faster...1 percent faster...this rule was in the rule book
    up to 2010...with 2011 there is no 1 percent rule anymore...

in 1983, the 1 percent rule was still in the rule book, so Richard Noble was with the 633 mph to 622 mph over the mile faster than 1 percent....
for the kilo it was 634 mph for Noble and 630 mph for Gabelich....so the record was still owned by Blue Flame and Gabelich and finally broken in 1997....

meanwhile the FIA split again the unlimited group in rocket and jet power....so, the Blue Flame is again a WLSR holder....with the rocket....

did this answer your question

[Stan Back]

No, but I got a lot of answers --from someone I hold in great admiration.

Good to be hearing from you -- a lot of our old friends aren't answering anymore.

[Gazza]

Thanks PP, however it does beg a further question - notwithstanding that the 622 mph speed was widely published how is it that the referees at FIA did not take the 1% rule into account? They had all the data for both cars runs. Do you know if this was appealed at the time?

[PorkPie]

Oops....I correct the typo....

Well, viewing the birthday list on the bottom of the website....we all getting old and a lot of people on that list are actually gone...I'm still one of the younger one....

No, but I got a lot of answers --from someone I hold in great admiration.

Good to be hearing from you -- a lot of our old friends aren't answering anymore.

[PorkPie]

I have a issue to understand that note....

what you mean with...FIA did not take the 1 percent rule into account....

talking about Noble and Gabelich...

Noble got the record over the mile certified and was listed as the record holder in the FIA record list....as he was 1 percent faster as Gabelich....

over the kilo the different was not enough, so Gabelich kept the record and was listed in the record list....so far was everything correct under the current rule in 1983....

the change in 2011, to get the 1 percent rule off, means from 2011 on you have only to be faster, didn't make a different to the record list before 2011...

also, as Noble's 633 mph over the mile was faster than Gabelich's 630 mph over the kilo, Noble was the fastest man on land....up to 1997 when Green run 714 mph at Black Rock....
which also beat the kilo record of Gabelich....


about the 622 mph record....Dick Keller - Mayoman - wrote it very often...

it was the stupidness of the main sponsor that the actually faster record...630 mph over the kilo....wasn't published in the media....maybe has something to do that the USA, as some other countries, is mile not kilo....
for the most people it was another record over 600 mph....okay....nice....
but for the kilo community it was the first record over 1000 kph....1001 over the mile and 1014 over the kilo....that was a very special number...

once again...here the stupidness of the sponsors was the reason for wrong communication to the public....

more surprised that it looks that the Blue Flame is complete forgotten in the USA....a couple years ago the Smithsonian had a special activity about LSR....and the Blue Flame wasn't listed...
it shows Breedlove and than Noble....what a farce.....


hope this ANSWERED your question....if not.....explain me what you really meant....and I will write another note....

Thanks PP, however it does beg a further question - notwithstanding that the 622 mph speed was widely published how is it that the referees at FIA did not take the 1% rule into account? They had all the data for both cars runs. Do you know if this was appealed at the time?

[TrickyDicky]

There is a wrinkle that PP maybe did not make explicit.

The 1% rule applied only to the individual class records.  Thus Richard Noble's 633mph became the record for the mile, whilst Blue Flame retained the km record at 630mph because Richard's speed was less than 1% faster.

My guess is that you are then comparing 633mph with 630mph and thinking there is less than 1% difference.  Therefore logic suggests Blue Flame at 630mph should remain the absolute record because it had not been beaten by more than 1%.  But that's not how it works!  In this case, the fastest mile record beats the fastest km record, so was recognised as the absolute/outright record.

My favourite follow-on from this derives from the FIA subsequently splitting rocket power and jet power into separate classes.  Therefore Richard Noble's 634mph could be recognised retrospectively as the km jet-powered record in 1983 (with the Blue Flame's 630mph remaining as the km rocket-powered record).  Following this logic, the absolute record in 1983 should have been Richard Noble at 634mph.  Good luck with arguing that case. 

[PorkPie]

you explained it a little bit further with the fastest on land or absolute record....

I thought it would be clear enough, when I wrote, that Noble with the mile became the absolute....as the kilo and mile are, as you wrote, been two seperate lists.

about Noble and getting the kilo jet record.....NO....the split, again, was a couple years ago...2014....and to that time Green had kilo and mile record for jet....

since 1965, when we got the unlimited class - absolute records - in the record book, it changed several time between split in jet and rocket and no split, means - doesn't matter what kind of power unit was used....jet or rocket...the fastest is the fastest.....when Gabelich broke in 1970 the Breedlove record from 1965....there was no split.....maybe, as the Blue Flame was the first successful rocket breaker

Gabelich got his record back, as no other rocket car had set meanwhile a new record

There is a wrinkle that PP maybe did not make explicit.

The 1% rule applied only to the individual class records.  Thus Richard Noble's 633mph became the record for the mile, whilst Blue Flame retained the km record at 630mph because Richard's speed was less than 1% faster.

My guess is that you are then comparing 633mph with 630mph and thinking there is less than 1% difference.  Therefore logic suggests Blue Flame at 630mph should remain the absolute record because it had not been beaten by more than 1%.  But that's not how it works!  In this case, the fastest mile record beats the fastest km record, so was recognised as the absolute/outright record.

My favourite follow-on from this derives from the FIA subsequently splitting rocket power and jet power into separate classes.  Therefore Richard Noble's 634mph could be recognised retrospectively as the km jet-powered record in 1983 (with the Blue Flame's 630mph remaining as the km rocket-powered record).  Following this logic, the absolute record in 1983 should have been Richard Noble at 634mph.  Good luck with arguing that case. 

[kiwi belly tank]

This makes me wonder what is behind FIA splitting up the thrust cars into separate classes! Anybody have any insight into that?
  Sid.

[MAYOMAN]

Well, here we go again.
The FIA absolute world land speed record is the fastest FIA record set by an automobile. The automobile must meet all the FIA requirements for setting new records.
The Blue Flame, in 1970, set 2 new FIA world records. Flying start mile and kilometer records are each the fastest FIA world records. The faster of the 2 would be the absolute world record.
The Blue Flame flying start mile record in 1970 was 622.407mph.
The Blue Flame flying start kilometer in 1970 was 1,014.656kph (630.388mph).
So, the Blue Flame kilometer record was the FIA absolute world land speed record in 1970.
Thrust 2 set the new FIA flying start mile record at 633mph, eclipsing The Blue Flame FIA flying start mile record (622.407mph).
While Thrust 2 did not set a new FIA flying start kilometer record, the new mile record was faster than The Blue Flame flying start kilometer record. Being the fastest FIA world record, the mile record replaced the kilometer record as the faster record, becoming the FIA absolute world land speed record.
The Blue Flame's FIA flying start world record remained until 1987.

[PorkPie]

yep, a very interesting question, especially, as the last split was done when the Bloodhound, a hybrid with jet and rocket power was a still existing project...

I would really like to know, why in 2014...this is now 10 years ago.....they changed the displacement - size - classes fron 11 to 14......

to today, only the smaller engine size classes are listed in the current record list....if someone comes along with a larger engine the FIA can't tell the team, what the record speed is, they have to break....
one big issue is, that during all that years, when someone missed a record or didn't break it, due to the 1 percent rule, this engines were never measured and the size official documented...
as some unsuccessful record attempt would be now a record....

I stopped to try to understand this organsation....

This makes me wonder what is behind FIA splitting up the thrust cars into separate classes! Anybody have any insight into that?
  Sid.

[MAYOMAN]

Oops! The Blue Flame's kilometer record was broken in 1997.

[Paulin adelaide]

Pork Pie says " I  stopped to try and understand this Organisation "    year 2024 and they still let Motorcycles have a longer turn around time between runs .

[Gazza]

Thanks all, but I'm now more confused than when I wrote the opening post lol! Perhaps I was not as clear as I could have been so I'll give it another go:

BF highest recorded speed 630.478 mph

Thrust highest recorded speed 634.051 mph

With 1% rule Thrust does not achieve the speed required to break the record. BF retains absolute record whether it be from the timed mile or km.

Without 1% rule Thrust takes record whether it be from the timed mile or km.

Is it really more difficult than that?

Just in case that doesn't work could you add in any comments whether you think that Thrust 2 is justified in being in the FIA list of record holders or not please.

I was going to raise the 'Donald Campbells Shambols' in a new post but I may not bother now 

[TrickyDicky]

...

With 1% rule Thrust does not achieve the speed required to break the record. BF retains absolute record whether it be from the timed mile or km.

Without 1% rule Thrust takes record whether it be from the timed mile or km.

Is it really more difficult than that?

...

Yes! It really is more difficult than that. 

The 1% rule applies when deciding the flying start mile and flying start km records for the thrust powered class of vehicles.
 
Hence Thrust 2 set the mile record but not the km record.  Crucially, Thrust 2's recorded time/speed for the km is not recognised as a record so is no longer in the game.  It might as well not have happened.

When deciding the absolute record the fastest flying start mile and km records are compared, without the 1% rule being applied.  Therefore Thrust 2's mile speed beats BF km and is the absolute record.

Perfectly clear.