El Mirage Protest Upheld

[dwarner]

he will have to make changes to his vehicle to make it eligible for the class it should have been built for. those initial costs, plus the costs to bring it to spec for the new or intended class.
**********************
Considering the amount spent to build a vehicle to compete in LSR I don't think the money spent on a couple of pieces of vinel to change class will be insurmountable.

This is how message board posts blow situations out of proportion.

Does anyone have an idea on a time frame that would be required to gather all input re: propsed rule changes from Oct 1st to mid Nov when the rule book starts to take shape? Remember, many of the suggested changes will be for someone wanting to protect themselves, create new classes(for their personal build), reduce personal costs at the sacrifice to safety and other items that do not look to be long term and in the interests of the sport.

To post all the changes and gather input from a list of several hundred members, sort it out, submit again, sort again, submit again, etc will be a daunting task.

DW

[JackD]

"Having people you can trust goes a long ways towards the solution.
Trust must include the ability to verify or the abuse will soon overcome any perceived good."

[landracing]

Dan you and the other workers of the SCTA do need to be comended on the tasks at hand.

JOB WELL DONE... Without the dedication from the people of the SCTA we would not have our venue to race.....

Jon

[JackD]

Dan you and the other workers of the SCTA do need to be comended on the tasks at hand.

JOB WELL DONE... Without the dedication from the people of the SCTA we would not have our venue to race.....

Jon

You can trust Dan and he deserves all the help you can give him.
All of them deserve your attention also.

[Bob Drury]

Dan, with all respect, that is exactly what the SCTA needs to do, in my opinion.  Laws are made and amended later in every format of governing, including racing organizations.  Are you saying that if a rule is shown to be wrong or of no positve use of the racers, we should just go with the flow?  This is why organizations have committies, to revue and revise, not rubber stamp or go with the status quo.  Why not open up discussion to a year round subject, and let the individual class category leaders be in charge of open discussion forums, such as this "obscure forum"?  Let  the racers at least have some input.  No, this doesn't mean that every request needs to be researched to the nth degree, but at least can be brought to the attention of the board, before being dismissed.  There is no reason that this needs to be done in mid-racing season, that is the Boards choice.  December thru June would work nicely too.

[Dynoroom]

Dan, with all respect, that is exactly what the SCTA needs to do, in my opinion.  Laws are made and amended later in every format of governing, including racing organizations.  Are you saying that if a rule is shown to be wrong or of no positve use of the racers, we should just go with the flow?  This is why organizations have committies, to revue and revise, not rubber stamp or go with the status quo.  Why not open up discussion to a year round subject, and let the individual class category leaders be in charge of open discussion forums, such as this "obscure forum"?  Let  the racers at least have some input.  No, this doesn't mean that every request needs to be researched to the nth degree, but at least can be brought to the attention of the board, before being dismissed.  There is no reason that this needs to be done in mid-racing season, that is the Boards choice.  December thru June would work nicely too.

Many racing groups such as NHRA, NASCAR, SCCA, etc. make rules as they see fit. They will SOMETIMES ask for input from teams or affected parties but most of the time they will hash out a rule change and just post as such. As far as the SCTA is concerned they go to great lengths to make sure a rule change will work most of the time. There are to many people involved to just let it be "rubber stamped" and move on to a beer.
For years I wanted to know why such & such rule got changed or how they came to a decision on a protest etc. You have to go to meetings, It's a CLUB! A group of people who make it happen because they care, yes they need to be bopped on the side of the head every now and then but they are doing what they think is best for the sport of LSR. As a club some things get missed, bring it up, it usually gets taken care of if it's wrong.
I think this forum Jon has here for us to use is great, it certainly lets you know most of whats going on, and I know it's not practical to attend meeting if you live in another state but it is the Southern California Timing Association after all, if you want to run, you run by there rules and not those of F-1.
Lots of people are watching what goes on at SCTA meetings, different clubs want different things. This keeps everything in check. It's not a perfect system but it's a damn fair one, I get miffed at some of the rule changes (can you say "classic") but it took a couple of YEARS for them to implement the rule, if that's not trying to do the right thing I don't know what is.

[landracing]

Well you know what, when I did Landracing.com and started the site in about 1998. I envisioned a one stop place for alot of things LSR related. I think I have done a pretty good job, maybe not the best at spelling or writing but most can work thru that.

In the last couple of years I asked myself a question as I was considering shutting the site down. What do I want the site to accomplish, what information do I want to promote and where do I see it in the future, and how is it going to fund itself?

These are all good questions, because as SCTA Volunteers, I volunteer just as much time as they do. This site is a 24 hour a day, 365 days a year committment. I am on the site doing this and that EVERYDAY. There is rarely an occasion I can think of a couple days this year that I have not done something on the site.

One main thing I wanted the site to do is for myself and the viewers is to have your voices be heard. There is a major portion of BNI members who do not goto the meetings, and who do not have a clue because information was limited, on what is going on. I have spent alot of time trying to make this happen and with failed promises from the "Past" bike guys that we could discuss rule changes, if they went our way or not, the basic thing here is YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO COMMENT. Dan has posted a possible rule change that YOU AS A VIEWER can comment on, and Dan is willing to listen... THis opportunity that Dan has given is one of the major things I wanted to the website to accomplish. Years of crying on the site that "we dont have a say" now you do. Just remember it may not go your way, or it may, can't keep everybody happy. But make your comments, back then up with facts, keep an open mind. DONT get into a pissing contest and ask the right questions and this can turn out good.

IF it fails, the opportunity Dan has given the site, then the site will no longer exsist, because I dont think we would get a second chance.  I think I have reached a milestone now its up to you to provide some good information.

The site continues to grow, new members sign up weekly, and my wife keeps on funding the site Along with the site sponsors who most are LSR racers themselves. Thank you sponsors..


Jon

[Bob Drury]

Mike, don't get me wrong, I think the SCTA and its volunteers do one hell of a good job, and I am not trying to take them or Dan to task.  All I am saying is I don't think any of us can see into the future, and that includes knowing the total effects generated by rules.  What I am promoting here is that we keep the lines of communication open, even after the fact.  I love LSR racing, and the family that we are, petty squables and all.  I just want to keep the idea forum open, not to throw mud, and I think thats what the majority of other racers want.  Rules are not a bad thing, but neither is keeping a open mind to change.............

[Sumner]

I think Mike has put things really into perspective and Dan is right that you can't be looking at hundreds of people's inputs.

I love the SCTA because they have made it possible for me to participate in something I could never do on my own.  They aren't perfect, but they have done a damn good job of getting us where we are today .

My only input and maybe this is already the case, make rule changes take place 2-3 years down the road after they are written into law so people don't get blindsided.  The exception would be something written into law that has safety implications.

c ya, Sum

[Bob Drury]

Sum, I have two questions for you: why would you not want all the input available?  Do you really believe that any one rule change or clarification would generate hundreds of requests or input?  Over statement is a two way street, and personally I think that more is better.  As usual, only my opinion (done with little or no input from others)...........

[landracing]

I talked with Larry, and he and I feel that this is a good time to post Larry's comments on the situation. I felt the viewers needed to know from himself.

"RE:  Infiniti G-35 "Coupe" --- The owner/driver's comments on the GT vs. Coupe controversy and SCTA Board ruling
 
      I requested a clarification of the "rear seats suitable for continued adult occupancy" rule 2 years ago.  I did this because I anticipated an outcry from the Camero, Mustang and Trans Am drivers in the Coupe and Sedan class.  The Infiniti G-35 "Coupe" has a very small back seat and it is 4 inches longer than the Nissan 350Z.  Otherwise it is nearly identical to the 350Z, all points I made when I contacted SCTA for a ruling.  After considerable delay, including, ostensibly, a visit to an Infiniti dealer, the ruling by Bobby Sikes Jr. and Mike Glynn, was that the back seat was too small to be classified as a Coupe and that the Infiniti would have to run in the GT class.
   
     While I wanted to enter the car as a Coupe, and my sponsor wanted it classified as a Coupe, I accepted the judgment of the officials and built the car to GT specifications.  I explained the "continued adult occupancy" and the Camero/ Mustang uproar to my sponsor and considered the matter closed.
 
     When I entered the Infiniti as GT at El Mirage I was protested by the first GT driver that saw the car.  Since I had already been through this issue with the SCTA, I expected them to stand by their original ruling.  To my surprise, I see they have reversed themselves and now consider the Infiniti a Coupe.  No problem other than they made it seem like (loss of points) I had committed some sort of infraction.  I wanted to run the car as a Coupe in the first place, and frankly I don't care about the points loss.  However, I think it's important that I provide the background and set the record straight as to why I arrived at El Mirage with a GT car.  
 
     Now that the Board has ruled, I expect to enter the car in the Coupe and Sedan class unmolested by protests.  Since I set 3 records with an Infiniti Q45 in 2001, 02 and 03 and qualified for the 2 club I am familiar with the class and what it takes to be competitive.  The minor modifications necessary to change class present no particular problems.  I consider Coupe and Sedan a slower class than GT so I feel a little like Br'er Rabbit being thrown into the briar patch.  
 
     Immediately following our trip from Denver to the event at El MIrage I sent a note to Bob and Judy Sites thanking them and my fellow Gear Grinders for making us feel welcome after a long tow.  I also commented on the high quality and efficiency of the SCTA volunteers.   I must single out Dan Warner as having supported my efforts as a novice at Bonneville right through the protest at El Mirage.  In my opinion, he's the best of a bunch of great volunteers in the club.  Despite the unfortunate misunderstanding about the proper class for the G-35, I have not changed my opinion of the club or the events it sponsors.
 
Larry Detrich   Denver, Colorado  "

Good stuff Larry...

[JackD]

**********************
Considering the amount spent to build a vehicle to compete in LSR I don't think the money spent on a couple of pieces of vinel to change class will be insurmountable.

This is how message board posts blow situations out of proportion.  

To post all the changes and gather input from a list of several hundred members, sort it out, submit again, sort again, submit again, etc will be a daunting task.

DW[/quote]

Could the mention of the class designation be a tease ?
I have never done one my self.
 What do you look for ?

[panic]

The more of this I read, the lower my interest in throwing more money down the rat-hole to complete my current project becomes.

In the event that there are no legal scholars here, this question has been asked and answered thousands of times on the million dollar level by various Courts. The result is what is usually referred to as "well-settled law":
1. someone wants a question answered by a corporation.
2. he is directed by the corporation to a specific source, who he is told has the authority to make a decision.
3. he tells the exact truth in his question.
4. he receives an official answer from someone with authority.
5. the person had the authority, but was wrong.

Is the corporation bound by the decision he was given?

Yes, it is.

[Sumner]

The more of this I read, the lower my interest in throwing more money down the rat-hole to complete my current project becomes.

In the event that there are no legal scholars here, this question has been asked and answered thousands of times on the million dollar level by various Courts. The result is what is usually referred to as "well-settled law":
1. someone wants a question answered by a corporation.
2. he is directed by the corporation to a specific source, who he is told has the authority to make a decision.
3. he tells the exact truth in his question.
4. he receives an official answer from someone with authority.
5. the person had the authority, but was wrong.

Is the corporation bound by the decision he was given?

Yes, it is.

Hey Panic I wouldn't give up so easily.  There are hundreds of entrants that pick a class, go race, have fun, maybe set a record or not and don't go through this situation.

Even in this situation it sounds like Larry is satisfied with the outcome and is not going to let it discourage him from going on.  Sounds like he made a good effort to get the car in the right class and at that point there was a misunderstanding that moved the car to most likely the wrong class.

That didn't take away the reward he got from driving the car fast and knowing he is competitive with it.  The car will move to the correct class and hopefully he will get a record with it.

Reading SCTA's "Mission" the other day one thing really stuck with me:

The SCTA-BNI is an all volunteer organization.....................  We're in it for the fun of it, and hope you are too.

I make mistakes, they will make mistakes, but in the end hopefully they, you and I will have "fun".  Let's not try and hold them to too high of standards.

Now get back to work on your project and have fun.  "Remember the road to the achievement is often more rewarding than the achievement" (someone must of said something to that effect once   ).

c ya, Sum

[joea]

Jack.........class designation a tease ....??

now that I look more at Jons post with the pic........

the color scheme on his bike and Larrys car are
strangely similar.........

could it be that those Denver guys (Larry and Jon) are
just trouble makers.......??

it might be as simple as a frustration Colo dudes have
about the taco stands in Denver that came by way of socal
and inability to communicate at drive thrus........

southern california transport association........?

Joe