Author Topic: ethanoll in fuel ?  (Read 15056 times)

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2009, 12:51:31 AM »
The gas classes are where most people start racing.  Folks should not have to mix or bring their own fuel to be competitive.

Does E85 give a racer an advantage? 

Offline wrongway

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2009, 09:45:48 AM »
The gas classes are where most people start racing.  Folks should not have to mix or bring their own fuel to be competitive.

Does E85 give a racer an advantage? 

All of the racing fuels I mentioned give some increase in performance. MR9 claims 8% more power than any non-oxygenated fuel. It usually requires retuning the fuel system. There is a reason other racing groups ban them :-) I am not the problem -- at least not yet. I cannot see spending 15- 30 bucks a gallon for the power gains , but if that is what other are running , i dont see how i can avoid it.

Roy

Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2009, 10:05:32 AM »
Not sure where this is headed... My take is that if you run in the "GAS" class... then you buy the "Event gas" from the on site vendor... That way the playing field is level for all the "gas class" entrants for that meet.  Most of the time the gas vendor has 3 or 4  types of gas to choose from.

3 leaded and 1 unleaded.

Charles
ECTA Record Holder Maxton
E/CBFALT, E/CBGALT, E/CGALT, E/CFALT, A/CGALT, C/CGALT, D/CGALT, C/CBGALT, B/CBGALT, C/CFALT
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A/CBFALT, B/CBFALT, C/CBFALT, C/CFALT, C/CGALT,   E/CGALT, E/CFALT

Fastest Standing Mile at Ohio  203.343mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Maxton 196.967mph
Fastest Standing 1.5 Mile at Loring 213.624mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Loring 204.109mph

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Offline DahMurf

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2009, 10:59:09 AM »
Charles,
It is allowable to bring a sealed can of another brand of race GAS to, for a fee, be administered by our gas vendor. My understanding is that the "grade" of gas is to be comperable to what the current vendor is offering as legal. We've run MR9 & C16 and brought our sealed cans. Our vendor offers a similar grade of gas in regards to octane. The benefit to us is that we can obtain the VP gas and tune with it in house & then be guaranteed to have the same to run with. The two vendors offer similar but not exactly the same gas. I'm not sure on the octane's and other specifics but it's not like the vendor only offers 87 octane & we're bringing 110. Another strange benefit to this is that a stock bike like mine runs much better on lower octane and most of the vendors don't supply the lower street/pump gas octane. If we couldn't bring our own the higher octane would put us at a disadvantage. I've taken it for granted that our vendor is knowledgable and wouldn't allow a Fuel like sealed container to be used as gas if it was beyond what he brings. I'm not sure that I've seen anyone bring anything beyond the standard VP fuels that are the norm.

I suppose one could discuss with the vendor how he administers things at the next meet if they're truly worried. So far I haven't seen anyone running away with gas records up to or beyond what the fuel ones are so no cause for great alarm!

BTW, if anyone is not happy with the rules or how they're administered the proper thing to do is submit a rule change or volunteer to oversee/administer the fueling and/or bring along the tools & start checking gas in impound. ;)

If you know somebody's not legal then do the right thing and tell the race director of file a formal protest! It's not hard to do and so far every time I've pointed out a discrepency it's always been an innocent misunderstanding of the rules and has been quickly and politely resolved!  8-)
Miss you my friend :-* - #1302  Twin Jugs Racing
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Offline jb2

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2009, 11:19:47 AM »
Deb,
Sounds like you are bringing "gas" to be put into a "gas" class.  bringing E85 or 50%ethanol in a sealed can would be brining "fuel" to be sealed for a "gas" class.  Quotes are because some people need a better definition than "comparable to what the current vendor is offering".  E85 is a big HP advantage.

I am with Dyno, I just don't get it.  Bring sealed "gas" to run in gas, not "fuel".

Jim

Offline Stan Back

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2009, 11:28:14 AM »
Seems hard to beat this horse to death when he keeps galloping around.

Stan
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2009, 12:16:06 PM »
Seems hard to beat this horse to death when he keeps galloping around.

Stan

Stan, them folks back there sure are different..... Our rules run their way!

Take it easy, It was tongue in cheek. If that's how the ECTA does it it's okay buy me.  :cheers:
Michael LeFevers
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Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline Warp12

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2009, 12:33:44 PM »
Oh, nevermind.... :-D
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 12:55:15 PM by Warp12 »

Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2009, 12:41:33 PM »
I understand Deb very well and agree.

Also agree that some motoe do better on lower octane than others.

My E motor needs  110 or higher,,, my C motor runs OK on the 110, but prefers the 100

and for some reason the hotter the day the better it likes the 100...I am not a chemist, and have no idea why,, I just drive... 

Charles
ECTA Record Holder Maxton
E/CBFALT, E/CBGALT, E/CGALT, E/CFALT, A/CGALT, C/CGALT, D/CGALT, C/CBGALT, B/CBGALT, C/CFALT
OHIO
B/CGALT, C/CGALT

LTA Record Holder and 200 Club Member
A/CBFALT, B/CBFALT, C/CBFALT, C/CFALT, C/CGALT,   E/CGALT, E/CFALT

Fastest Standing Mile at Ohio  203.343mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Maxton 196.967mph
Fastest Standing 1.5 Mile at Loring 213.624mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Loring 204.109mph

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Offline relaxedfit

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2009, 01:09:41 PM »
Lower octane huh? so that's my problem! Maybe I'll try kerosene next time.
Ken Presson
Having nothing to do in shutdown is our goal

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2009, 01:29:09 AM »
Thanks for the advice about buying ethanol gas at gas stations near the freeway in better neighborhoods.  During the last few days I talked to some locals who are familiar with ethanol gas and they gave me a lot of advice.  I can post it if anyone is interested.
 

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2009, 04:05:59 PM »
Lots of info about fuel
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2308.0.html

The only way to provide a level playing field is for the event organizer to provide event gas.

If the competitor brings his own "gas" then the fun starts. E85? I'll take it any day. That forces the event organizer to check dielectric constant and that is time consuming and expensive. If they don't check DC then start injecting nitromethane into the "sealed can".

Octane is an indicator of anti-knock ability and has nothing to do with power. The amount of heat a given amount of fuel produces is the power criteria.

Adding oxygen to the fuel has nothing to do with the fuel, is just allows more oxygen into the engine, and more power.

If you look at the ERC web site they tell you the amount of heat the fuel produces (Heat Release per unit weight (bomb calorimeter)) nobody else gives you that info, so trying to determine horsepower from no information from other providers is impossible.

Pump gas? There is no standard. The gas you get from different locations of the same brand differ. The gas you get from the same station this week isn't the same as next week.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
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Offline hotrod

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2009, 04:41:52 PM »
Quote
Does E85 give a racer an advantage?

Yes it does, in almost all cases. Like all alcohol fuels it allows more fuel to be burned, hence more power.

Most internal combustion engines are air limited. By that I mean their ultimate limit to power production is the amount of air you can stuff in the cylinder.
Once you burn up that air, you cannot make any more power. Alcohol fuels like Methanol , and E85 being highly oxygenated have lower oxygen demand and generally wider flammability limits than gasoline. You can efficiently burn a very rich E85 fuel mixture, that if you tried the same relative mixture (lambda) on gasoline the engine would hardly run. With no modifications engines typically can make about 5% more power just by changing to E85. If they are specially built to take advantage of its high fuel octane and high cooling power (high compression ratio and or boosted) 10% or more increase in power over comparable gasoline is typical.

E85 also raises the engines thermal limits due to its high evaporative cooling effect. At power levels that would melt parts or cook a gasoline engine E85 works well. Some racers converting to E85 actually have difficulty getting enough engine heat for efficient operation and have to go back to using thermostats or a warmer thermostat to get best engine operation.

E85 sometimes does not increases peak power significantly but it raises the entire power curve, and broadens the ability of the engine to pull under load because of its burn characteristics. This sometimes means an engine that only gained a couple horsepower peak power runs noticeably faster times on the track. Most drag racers that make the conversion see ET drops of a tenth or more.

All that said, as posted above in the land speed environments E85 would be considered fuel, and if your going to be running fuel class you will be competing against folks running both methanol or nitromethane. E85 still has some advantages even though it has slightly lower power potential to methanol it starts better, requires less maintenance, and is less toxic not to mention being easy to find in many parts of the country.

It is a great fuel for folks who want a high performance daily driver, and usually produces more power than the hardware can handle in daily driver builds if pushed hard. It will tolerate over 30 psi of boost in turbocharged applications, so most any engine can be pushed to idiotic levels of power for a daily driver. It is becoming popular in many racing environments that allow it as it is in effect a cheap readily available "race gas".

Larry

Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: ethanoll in fuel ?
« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2009, 06:18:44 PM »
Larry,

To Run  E85  wouldn't a carb change be needed ?

Say if you had a Holley 4150 or Quick Fuel  850  set up for Gas...  Can it run E85?

I heard that E85 is hard on the gaskets, seals etc ...and you need an E85 specific carb ?

Just asking as I have no idea.

Charles
ECTA Record Holder Maxton
E/CBFALT, E/CBGALT, E/CGALT, E/CFALT, A/CGALT, C/CGALT, D/CGALT, C/CBGALT, B/CBGALT, C/CFALT
OHIO
B/CGALT, C/CGALT

LTA Record Holder and 200 Club Member
A/CBFALT, B/CBFALT, C/CBFALT, C/CFALT, C/CGALT,   E/CGALT, E/CFALT

Fastest Standing Mile at Ohio  203.343mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Maxton 196.967mph
Fastest Standing 1.5 Mile at Loring 213.624mph
Fastest Standing Mile at Loring 204.109mph

http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii43/cajunkid5690/

Blog    www.venablerodsandracing.com
email   venableracing@gmail.com