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Author Topic: Bonneville Course Prep  (Read 18512 times)
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jww36
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« on: July 09, 2017, 09:16:11 AM »

I'm somewhat of a LSR new comer, but here is my 2 cents. This subject is not in anyway to criticize Larry Volk and the guys prepping the salt. There doing the best with what they got. We all know the salt is not what it was twenty years ago, but they are prepping the courses the same way as twenty years ago (dragging sleds).
At the Test & Tune, the salt was like a washboard, and the dragging and packing helped flatten the surface but couldn't eliminate the high spots. Common sense tells me if over the next winter and spring we get a little more salt back on the surface, it's not going to lay flat, just cover the washboard surface conditions we have now.

Again, the reason for this subject is not to criticize, but a forum like this allows hundreds of people to put our heads together and maybe come up with a way to get a hard flat surface for racing.
John



But I don't know if the traditional way of course prep that they have been doing for twenty plus years (dragging sleds)
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RogerL
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2017, 10:52:46 AM »

the obvious answer is to get more salt on the race course. bringing back some of the 116 million tons of salt discarded in pond 5 would be a good place to start. at the rate of 2 million tons a years returned, there would be a noticeable improvement after a few years. anything less including different grading techniques is simple a waste of time. the current grooming techniques have been refined over many decades and have proven to be effective. there needs to be more salt on the courses, period!
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jl222
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2017, 11:52:30 AM »

I'm somewhat of a LSR new comer, but here is my 2 cents. This subject is not in anyway to criticize Larry Volk and the guys prepping the salt. There doing the best with what they got. We all know the salt is not what it was twenty years ago, but they are prepping the courses the same way as twenty years ago (dragging sleds).
At the Test & Tune, the salt was like a washboard, and the dragging and packing helped flatten the surface but couldn't eliminate the high spots. Common sense tells me if over the next winter and spring we get a little more salt back on the surface, it's not going to lay flat, just cover the washboard surface conditions we have now.

Again, the reason for this subject is not to criticize, but a forum like this allows hundreds of people to put our heads together and maybe come up with a way to get a hard flat surface for racing.
John



But I don't know if the traditional way of course prep that they have been doing for twenty plus years (dragging sleds)

  Yeah... something different. I've been thinking of something like a terrazzo  grinder not just one but at least 3 staggered to cover at least 8 ft they have course stones for ist grind and are replaceable. A towable framework that would be able to adjust up and down and with a generator big enough to power units. would have to be fabricated  and Seth Hammonds shop would be capable of it.

 Or just design something with the cutting wheels and belt drive similar to a lawn tractor and driven by a 4 cyl motor.

   JL222

 
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jl222
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2017, 12:40:24 PM »

the obvious answer is to get more salt on the race course. bringing back some of the 116 million tons of salt discarded in pond 5 would be a good place to start. at the rate of 2 million tons a years returned, there would be a noticeable improvement after a few years. anything less including different grading techniques is simple a waste of time. the current grooming techniques have been refined over many decades and have proven to be effective. there needs to be more salt on the courses, period!


  It's been suggested to built a berm and direct the brine towards the course. Truck in material for berm. Rubber tired tractor can build berm, height to be determined by GPS altitude reading 6 in plus curvature of earth should do it.

  I installed ABS ? culvert pipes when building our new home 10'' by 20 ft fairly light, Linda and I could handle them,
 not break the bank. looking up cost.  Need to hook up to discharge pumps if possible or pump brine  into as many pipes needed to direct flow to course area.

     JL222

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jl222
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2017, 01:23:10 PM »

the obvious answer is to get more salt on the race course. bringing back some of the 116 million tons of salt discarded in pond 5 would be a good place to start. at the rate of 2 million tons a years returned, there would be a noticeable improvement after a few years. anything less including different grading techniques is simple a waste of time. the current grooming techniques have been refined over many decades and have proven to be effective. there needs to be more salt on the courses, period!


  It's been suggested to built a berm and direct the brine towards the course. Truck in material for berm. Rubber tired tractor can build berm, height to be determined by GPS altitude reading 6 in plus curvature of earth should do it.

  I installed ABS ? culvert pipes when building our new home 10'' by 20 ft fairly light, Linda and I could handle them,
 not break the bank. looking up cost.  Need to hook up to discharge pumps if possible or pump brine  into as many pipes needed to direct flow to course area.

     JL222

  Found cost of pipes $130 with tax no coupler required 264 20 sections per mile =$34,320 tongue
  The 12'' x 20 ft galvanized steel pipe I used for under road was $88. We were in a hurry and this $130 stuff was close so maybe cheaper else were. Also smaller pipe would do it.

  SAVE THE SALT might be able to get BLM or Intrepid to help or maybe BNI should take over the project.
 
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2017, 03:19:23 PM »

I am now wishing I had gone down & inspected the salt when it was flooded to better understand how much salt crust actually remains solid while it is flooded & how much is fluid. We're only talking 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch total thickness once it dries. The roughness of the dried surface is actually the little divots created in the brine dirt base when the last of the abrasive water is blown around by the wind as it evaporates creating a golf ball effect.
In reality, putting anything back in the Bonneville basin isn't likely to improve the surface if there is NO PLUG IN THE DRAIN.
  Sid.
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SPARKY
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 03:27:54 PM »

Sid and Roger are right:

To stop leaching of the salt means stopping the BRINE mining

Restore means just that---there will have to be a massive return of Salt to have anything but a crusty mud flat
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 03:51:25 PM »

I keep scratching my head on this one.  Up here(way up north) the mining companies are required to fill in the hole once they've extracted the mineral.  The holes/poor rock piles resulting form digging those holes - are WAY bigger than the piddly-azz 50 megatons of salt.  But fill 'em in they must, 'cause they are required to post a bond to cover the full cost of reclamation to "as found" before they can begin mining.

It's been that way for a long time - maybe as long as mining at the Salt.  Yeah, sure, there's no "hole" in this case - but the poor rock pile (a/k/a salt mountain) is still there to be redistributed on the flats.  Right?

I guess not after all.  Bummer.  Maybe they shoulda built the salt flats using rules from Upper Michigan.
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2017, 04:02:14 PM »

Yes, but. By their standards the salt is still there. In the form of salty mud. The flats are still flats. So if you are the BLM nothing has changed. This is called Gov Think.
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2017, 05:54:05 PM »

.... - but the poor rock pile (a/k/a salt mountain) is still there to be redistributed on the flats.  Right?...

If you read their contracts they are under no obligation to ever return any of the salt to where it came from.  They only have to plug any wells they have and maybe fill in the ditches, but I can't remember that part for sure  cry cry cry

Sad, sad situation.  Anything else in the U.S. that would of been this unique would of been protected, but it wasn't, so what's next.  A government 'super fund' project to do what is right and return the salt flats to something that resembles what they were before???  Most 'super fund' projects are ones like the ones near me to clean up uranium tailing piles or some other situation where it is deemed the public is at risk.  Not the case here, so this would be a whole new ball game.

Sumner

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Stan Back
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 06:02:51 PM »

Somewhere thru the tons of reading, I remember that there's a bond that must be posted for reconstruction(?) of a mining area.  And also thru the reading, I recall that this is S.O.P. on federal land.  And the mining companies know this.  And they're structured so if they ever need to comply, the entity that has posted the initial bond goes broke.  Kinda a big business way of doing business.

Maybe we should complain to the POTUS -- I believe he's well-versed in this practice.

Go ahead and complain to the Secretary of the Interior (who's trying to cut back on wilderness areas for drilling).

Stan
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RogerL
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« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 06:46:39 PM »

trying to groom bonneville these days is kind of like a bald man trying to comb his hair.....can't groom what ain't there...

in my opinion the usfra folks did a good job with what they had to work with. the salt is just too Dodge thin to do much with.
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jl222
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 10:40:16 PM »

trying to groom bonneville these days is kind of like a bald man trying to comb his hair.....can't groom what ain't there...

in my opinion the usfra folks did a good job with what they had to work with. the salt is just too Dodge thin to do much with.

 Save The Salt says hopefully close to 600,000 tons of SALT [ NOT SALT BRINE] lay down this year and about the same last year.

  At a truck and trailer load of 50,000 lbs or 25 t0ns. 25 tons into 600,000 tons is 24,000 truck and trailer loads
 OF SALT!!
  
  I'm pretty sure a truck and trailer holds at least 24 cubic yards. Some body besides me can figure how many miles
of salt could be laid down at 4'' thick with 24,000 truck and trailer loads.  
  
    Yeah right, be patient they say.

          JL222

    


  


                                              
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« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2017, 11:39:58 PM »

Somewhere thru the tons of reading, I remember that there's a bond that must be posted for reconstruction(?) of a mining area.  And also thru the reading, I recall that this is S.O.P. on federal land.  And the mining companies know this.  And they're structured so if they ever need to comply, the entity that has posted the initial bond goes broke.  Kinda a big business way of doing business.

Maybe we should complain to the POTUS -- I believe he's well-versed in this practice.

Go ahead and complain to the Secretary of the Interior (who's trying to cut back on wilderness areas for drilling).

Stan
(Let the arrows fly . . .)

We covered a lot of this in a post a year ago....

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,15814.0.html

.... and when I went back and tried to go to the links to BLM reports on the subject....guess what....  they are all gone  rolleyes rolleyes,

Sumner
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Sequim Jim
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 06:50:44 AM »

Somewhere thru the tons of reading, I remember that there's a bond that must be posted for reconstruction(?) of a mining area.  And also thru the reading, I recall that this is S.O.P. on federal land.  And the mining companies know this.  And they're structured so if they ever need to comply, the entity that has posted the initial bond goes broke.  Kinda a big business way of doing business.

Maybe we should complain to the POTUS -- I believe he's well-versed in this practice.

Go ahead and complain to the Secretary of the Interior (who's trying to cut back on wilderness areas for drilling).

Stan
(Let the arrows fly . . .)

It's my understanding the State of Utah has tried on several occasions to separate itself from federal law and federal oversight.
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Best regards
Jim
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