Author Topic: Exhaust Flow and Aero  (Read 125726 times)

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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2011, 10:39:39 PM »
Turbo-compounding is alive & well in the new Detroit Diesel DD16 engine in Freightliner trucks. The turbine is mounted behind the turbo & the drive is fed into the trans. I believe the gain is something like 48 hp. If you see a truck with a DD15 or DD16 badge on the cab, ask the driver if you can check it out. Truckers love to talk.
  Sid.

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2011, 11:01:22 PM »
Detroit claims 85HP in their training. I've been through almost all of it as a dealer tech.

Rumor has it that they are getting ready to phase it out and try to make up the power loss elsewhere, like in the injection timing, cam timing, compression areas. Supposedly they are doing this without any increase in fuel consumption.

While the physics of the idea is sound, they are finding that warranty claims are getting very expensive. For example if a turbo shells out (not uncommon on any heavy truck engine) it frequently takes out the APT (auxiliary power turbine) due to fragments of the impeller tearing up the APT rotor, as well as the ATD (after treatment device, think catalytic converter) due to oil contamination.
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline DaveL

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #77 on: July 02, 2011, 03:57:20 AM »
Hi all, new guy here from Melbourne Australia. Been lurking on this site for awhile now and this thread has finally prompted me to join the forum. Thought I'd make my first post both an introduction and a contribution to the thread. Can trace my interest in LSR back to the age of five and have been studying and researching the technical aspects and the history of the sport since then. That said, I make no claim about being an expert on the subject, or any other for that matter, I have no formal training or qualifications in anything ( I left school young ). Also, I have no previous vehicles that I can point to as proof of any ability. As such you can make your own judgement on the technical merit of what I write. My opinions expressed are just that, they may or may not be fact. Shoot me down in flames if you can. Sorry to make this post rather long, I'll generalise to simplify it as much as I can. I hope it will be worth your while.

My aim with this post is to attempt to clear up some grey areas in the understanding of exhaust flow and how it relates to vehicle dynamics. It is true the exhaust contains considerable energy that is wasted and I haven't yet seen a vehicle take full advantage of this energy. As most everyone would know the exhaust flow can create thrust that contributes to pushing the car forward, this is true however not completely understood.

First, a brief refresher course. Rocket propulsion and Jet propulsion both come under what I term as a ' reaction engine'. That is, they propel themselves forward by the expulsion of matter (called the propellant) in the opposite direction. Newton's third law of motion states that ' for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'. This matter could be in the form of a solid or liquid but is most commonly a gas produced by a chemical reaction in the combustion chamber. Rocket propulsion differs from Jet propulsion in so far as with a rocket, all of their propellants are carried on board the vehicle and the expulsion rate and force generated is largely independent of outside conditions. With a rocket propelled vehicle, the vehicles velocity has no relationship to the engines exhaust velocity. Rockets can, and do travel faster than their own exhaust velocity. With Jet propulsion it's slightly different. Only one of the propellants used in the combustion process is carried on board the vehicle, the other, Oxygen, is provided from the surrounding air. Jet propulsion works by adding energy to the gas stream flowing through the engine. As such a jet propelled vehicle cannot travel faster than it's own exhaust velocity.

At this point it's important I try and explain the difference between gross thrust and net thrust. Imagine a jet propelled vehicle held stationary with the engine at full throttle. In this condition gross and net thrust are one and the same. Now if the vehicle is let go and begins to accelerate two things happen. The gross thrust or 'overall' thrust will begin to rise (usually through a ram effect making the compressor more efficient and moving up through a pressure regime) however the net thrust, that which is actually propelling the vehicle will begin to fall. That's because the momentum added to the gas stream, the ratio of inlet velocity to exhaust velocity is reducing. With a Rocket, gross and net thrust remain the same irrespective of the vehicle's velocity.

Now lets apply this to a car or bike at Bonneville. The primary source of propulsion is with a piston or even turbine engine providing torque to rotate drive wheels. Sufficient traction provides the thrust to propel the vehicle forward. Secondary would be thrust generated from any rear pointing exhaust outlet. Being air breathing, the exhaust momentum would be classed as Jet propulsion and would conform to the above statement. I believe most vehicles at Bonneville would outrun their exhaust velocity and the net thrust at top speed would be a negative value. That's not to say it doesn't exist, your way of visualizing it just has to change. Up to the point of going negative it was providing more than what it was costing, now, when negative it should be seen more as drag minimization rather than ' free thrust'.

I'll touch briefly on the Meredith effect for radiators. The theory is that the air flowing through gets heated and leaves the duct at a higher velocity. In practice, through losses, there is no momentum increase and the net thrust is negative. Once again, the design is really based on drag minimization. However, if you were to merely quote the gross thrust output it would be an impressive figure.

So what can you do about this? First up, the exhaust has to point rearward and the velocity as high as possible to delay the point of going negative. Most exhaust outlets are way too big and velocity suffers as a result. The major pressure drop is through the exhaust port and the rest of the system is essentially ducting. Ideally you want a short pipe to keep losses to a minimum, direct it rearwards and then (now you can take this to the bank) put a nozzle on it. I'll avoid talking about the interaction between exhaust and vehicle aerodynamics in this post as it's growing way too long. My only objective here was to be thought provoking.

Cheers,

Dave.


 
















































Offline RichFox

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #78 on: July 02, 2011, 05:53:13 AM »
As a younger, thinner man I had the opportunity to work on both the Turbo Compound CW 3500 and the Convair 340 with exhaust augmentation. Or really cool headers on a P&W 2800. I have no idea how much thrust it was supposed to add. But it looked like it should be good. I don't know how the exhaust collectors on our DC-6 aircraft with 2800s would have added to thrust.

Offline superford317

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2011, 02:22:28 PM »
the thrust from the exhaust collector on the P&W2800 was small, but the thrust from the cowling surounding the air cooled engine was dramatic. recovering and using the radiated heat with ingenious ducting.
a lot of engineering time and effort went into that and in the long run probably saved countless american lives.
many times people think they are looking at the  big things and overlook the small things, that in reality are very big.
i was doing some CFD and wind tunnel testing for some government research a few years ago and had to make a presentation on this very thing.
Constructing a 1000hp turbocharged bellytank

Offline joea

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2011, 03:25:18 PM »
superford thats really cool..!!!...what year was that and which tunnel.?..

Offline Saltfever

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2011, 06:33:12 PM »
Power equals thrust times velocity, so one extra pound of thrust at 400 mph is 1 lb * 400*1.5 ft/s = 600 lb*ft/s, a little over one horsepower for each pound of additional thrust. Bear in mind this is net, delivered horsepower - equivalent to at least five thermal horsepower of fuel consumption if it had been generated by putting in a bigger engine.

Plagerism 101!   Go here and look at post #13. It seems like somebody else said the above quote first. Or are you "Piolenc" and moved from the Philippines to Iraq?
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/54975/Spitfire-Efficiency-of-Cooling-and-Thrust

And just to add a little precision to this thread the constant is not 1.5ft/sec but 1.466 ft/sec.

Very interesting thread and I have greatly enjoyed all posts even a few assumptions which cause me to fire up the old neurons. No time now, but I’ll try to make some “point-outs” later.



Offline tortoise

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2011, 06:43:26 PM »
. . . direct it rearwards and then (now you can take this to the bank) put a nozzle on it.

My bank likes to see numbers on the money. How about a concrete example, say a specific change to a specific exhaust system of a specific engine, with estimates of before and after shaft power and exhaust thrust.  Your choice of engine, but something famiiar to racers, like a Hayabusa or small block Chevy, would be nice.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 06:48:04 PM by tortoise »

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2011, 07:10:53 PM »
Right here is what I love about this board.....

A bunch of itchy minds that fall hungrily on anything that falls anywhere within their field of expertise or could be remotely linked to their pursuits in landspeed racing.The difference between this and most message boards is that people here are watching and looking for applicability, they aren't armchair experts or internet trolls.

Between them they've sniffed out plenty of stuffed shirt professors  but also given their approval to others who have proved they can mix it theoretically or practically.

You can't get cut and paste past them, if you say you've been involved in something then via the six degrees of separation they will check your bona fides.

superford thats really cool..!!!...what year was that and which tunnel.?..

That there is a guy who has ridden over 270mph on a sit on bike , his credentials are public knowledge, he has a right to know that you speak from experience and have verifiable credentials. If not , he knows not to take on board anything that challenges his prior held beliefs about this topic , it's not personal.
Few understand what I'm trying to do but they vastly outnumber those who understand why...................

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THE LUCKIEST MAN IN SLOW BUSINESS.

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2011, 09:49:08 PM »
Geeze, I didn't mean to completely derail the thread into a peeing match over credentials, LOL. Here's a question to maybe get it back on topic.  :-)

It seems to be generally accepted, from my reading, that about the best that can be done with exhaust flow is to help fill in low pressure areas, or areas of separation. When I asked a similar question of A2 his response was that the effect is so small that most disregard it and test without exhaust flow. As I understand it, he based this response on prior experience with varied types of cars that actually had experimented with it in the past, primarily because the exhaust flow has such low volume when compared to the overall mass of air displaced by the vehicle.

In most conventional vehicle types I can see that this is probably very true. LSR vehicles, however, are not conventional, especially streamliners. They are by definition designed to displace as little air as possible, and most have very powerful engines pushing a higher than normal volume through them. It seems to me that these vehicles could see significant gains from properly placed exhaust.

The "low" volume of the exhaust gas possibly could also be enhanced. Has anyone experimented with water injection into the exhaust stream? This would flash boil due to the heat of the exhaust gasses and provide extra volume that could be put to use.

« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 10:02:07 PM by WhizzbangK.C. »
Ah, this is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of.  Douglas Adams

Offline RichFox

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #85 on: July 03, 2011, 04:41:13 AM »
Hmmm, I have never had a response like this so far in my career.
I have devoted my entire human existence since the age of 10 to the internal combustion engine and anything to do with speed. I do not have children or a wife, I do not have time for them, and my only passion is speed and performance. When most people were out partying or spending time with friends, I was studying in schools and spending late nights in the shop modifying cylinder heads or building engines or chassis. I am currently working for the US government in a technical field in IRAQ the past 5 years.
as i type this i am only a few miles from syria and turkey, in the northern iraqi dessert.
I assure you that I am very well versed and educated in everything from aerodynamics to thermal dynamics and composites; I am a machinist, welder, fabricator and engine builder.
I have constructed many winning race cars from the ground up and consulted with the teams after they were on the track and winning.
I quoted a lap time to a team owner that a car would run to within .01 of a second, 3 months before I made delivery of it, the 3rd lap the first time ever on the track, it ran the time i had quoted.
I only wished to impart some of my understanding and knowledge that I have gained.
I have been busy answering E mails from people that have flooded me with questions since I started posting on this thread.
Things that come natural to me and I take for granted amazes most people when I start elaborating on them.
i elaborated at length and show you many examples, pictures and drawings. more so than i have seen elsewhere.

To answer your question the first ball is at 70, the second one is at 140 and the 3rd one is at 240.
These temperatures are easily obtainable on a vehicles body surface using several methods.
NASA only started doing research into this in the 1990s.

I am so sorry if I offended anyone, I assure you it will not happen again.

Is this proof that our government is conducting some "Black list" experiments with advanced, possibly alien, technology? A secret base deep in the Iraq dessert. A totally dedicated speed master. No news coverage. I demand a Senate hearing. Keep Big Government out of LSR.

Offline Nexxussian

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #86 on: July 03, 2011, 05:00:20 AM »

Nexxussian...turbo-compounding is allowed but puts you in supercharged class but it does not pressurize the engine...but you could use a super charger and gear a turbo or two back to the crankshaft [or?] like the Wright R-3350

 Rule book pg 48 section 4.ff

  We might catch up to what the aero guys were doing 70 yrs ago :-o

               JL222


Yeah, but that bumps the record I'm after from the high 170s up to the mid 230s (IIRC). :(


Oh well, mabe in years to come.


Neil, yes, "Turbo Compund" is what I've read it being called.
Just happy to be here. :-D

Erik

Offline superford317

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2011, 02:30:10 PM »
A vehicle moving through the air experiences drag, friction drag and pressure drag.
On a streamliner the boundary layer on the surface remains attached for almost the entire length, the drag is primarily surface friction inside the boundary layer.
Drag can be reduced significantly using boundary layer heating; decreased drag means a faster top speed and quicker acceleration.
On a streamliner drag comes primarily from skin friction drag, when heat is added to the boundary layer, skin friction is reduced.
As stated earlier, the closer to the front of the vehicle that the heating is started the more effective it becomes and the farther back it is started the less effective it is, if only the front portion of the vehicle is heated, the warm air is carried under the boundary layer and down the surface, the more of the vehicle that is heated the more effective the drag reduction becomes.
Heating the surface air causes the boundary layer to thicken and causes some of the surface roughness and imperfections to be hidden also.
As with most things though there is a diminishing rate of return, as more heat is added.
The two best ways to achieve the surface heating on a vehicle powered with a liquid cooled internal combustion engine is with the engine coolant, turning the body into a radiator or using the exhaust between two body panels and radiating the heat.
By using the exhaust between the body panels it can be dumped into the wake behind the vehicle in the most advantageous area.
You may have to get a little more creative with keeping items cool that you never had to worry about, that is for another thread.
Constructing a 1000hp turbocharged bellytank

Offline joea

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2011, 03:31:21 PM »
...superford this is really groovy stuff....!!

..you mentioned "I have constructed many winning race cars from the ground up and consulted with the teams after they were on the track and winning"....

would you be so kind as to share abit on "one" of the many cars and its winning..ie a team name...where did it race/compete..possibly a pic as you have made it look easy sharing MANY other pics....

..also....you mentioned  re: "i was doing some CFD and wind tunnel testing for some government research"...what year was that and which tunnel....?..

thank you in advance..

Joe

Offline hotrod

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Re: Exhaust Flow and Aero
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2011, 03:42:24 PM »
Quote
Drag Reduction with Boundary Layer Heating

 

The benefits of reducing the drag of either a new or existing aircraft configuration are obvious. An aircraft’s endurance is directly proportional to the lift to drag ratio.  Decreased drag also translates into faster top speed, quicker acceleration, shorter take-off distances and lower direct operating costs in the form of fuel savings. In order to project military air power, or on the commercial side, receive better range and fuel economy, reducing drag during the cruise portion of a flight is the most critical. During cruise, the drag of the aircraft primarily comes from profile drag (skin friction), induced drag (drag due to lift), compressibility drag, separation drag and interference drag. Of these, skin friction (from the “wetted” elements of the aircraft) typically accounts for more than 50% of the total. By applying active surface heating in the turbulent regions of the aircraft’s boundary layer, the skin friction is reduced as a function of the ratio of the skin temperature to the ambient temperature. The result is an effective drag reduction method that can be retrofitted to existing aircraft.

 

RHRC conducted drag reduction tests using boundary layer heating through a NASA Small Business Innovative Research program using the NASA Dryden F-15B Flight Test Fixture and a T-39 Sabreliner. RHRC's research proved that drag reduction savings are possible at full flight Reynolds and Mach numbers. RHRC also measured the amount of power required to achieve these savings. In general, boundary layer heating becomes more efficient with lower Reynolds number.

Note that the turbulent region of the boundary layer is not typically at the front of the vehicle. On a streamlined shape, the boundary layer is very thin at the front of the vehicle, then gradually thickens as the air flow moves down the body, and transitioning from laminar flow to turbulent flow prior to separation.


http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/Skin_Friction/TH11G3.jpg

http://www.rollinghillsresearch.com/Aero_Research/Boundary_layer_heating.htm

Another method of managing boundary layer thickness and transition to turbulent flow is to use suction to pull the thickening boundary layer off the panel and help re-attach the flow as a laminar low friction flow.

http://web.mit.edu/hml/ncfmf/12BLC.pdf

NACA ducts also help strip off the boundary layer, so it is conceivable that proper placement of NACA ducts to provide essential cooling could also help manage flow separation near the rear of a stream liner.

Larry








« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 03:44:10 PM by hotrod »