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Offline JackD

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What ?
« on: February 05, 2006, 02:36:59 AM »
What prior notice if any was given to the potential applicants about the AMA/ FIM rule changes ?
Did they just fall from the sky ?
However valid the author might believe they are, more eyes will do a better job of getting it right and reduce the embarrassment of an inappropriate rule or one that that is easily neutered with a work around.
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Offline sabat

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Re: What ?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 08:44:48 PM »
I've been reading through Jack Dolan's old posts, and this one from 2006 was unanswered, but could have been written a few months ago re: the sudden requirement of a custom frame for AMA Altered class bikes.
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Offline joea

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Re: What ?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 09:05:45 PM »
I like Jack's first recorded post....

""Individual record performance importance is divided by the number of classes and cheap shots are extra.
 It could be the FIM/FIA is correct and the US has created a non racing monster with a class for everybody that comes along forever with the entry fee.""

kinda super groovy how Jack's quotes from nearly a decade ago fits so well TODAY.....

Joe :)

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Offline Stan Back

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Re: What ?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 09:27:44 PM »
Super groovy, but not surprising, huh Joe.
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: What ?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 10:27:12 PM »
The above mentioned will BECOME:

   "socialist - Racing", Komrads.

 MESSAGE MODIFIED  because of No-politicsl rule
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 10:42:46 PM by interested bystander »
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: What ?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 10:28:29 PM »
Well since Jack's question was not answered... and we had a rule drop out of the sky, again, so lets help the rulers just a little.

What traits, changes or parts make a motorcycle a "purpose built race bike"
How would you differentiate a modified production bike from a special construction bike... The SCTA started it by throwing bikes with a 10% stretch out of modified... where did they go... special construction, but do they really belong there...
OK guys here is a chance to make your opinions heard  :cheers:
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Stainless
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Offline joea

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Re: What ?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 07:42:52 AM »
i missed the part where they were asking for input from the people (racers)...

or is this the Racer Tea Party...movement...hoping they will change the law...

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Offline Stainless1

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Re: What ?
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 10:22:06 AM »
Joe, I think they are trying to figure this out based on things I heard during the wait time at the Shootout.  I also know those same folks visit this site.  It is a shot to have voices heard as long as the input stays constructive. 

I believe a special construction bike is not and can not be streetable.  If you can put a tag on it is it really a "purpose built race bike"... No.  If it has a headlight and turn signals that have to be taped over is it a  "purpose built race bike"...  Class jumpers take note... if it has been registered in P or M the same year it can't be a  "purpose built race bike"...

OK guys, I got it started for you.  How about some discussion from the bike guys.... car guys, remember this is in the Bub thread... SCTA bike guys, I remember your concerns being voiced in an earlier thread that it could happen to you so let's put the ideas on the table for discussion. 
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Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline sabat

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Re: What ?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 10:34:35 AM »
I'm not a BUB guy, but I think the issue is relevant to all LSR sanctions.

The thing that confuses me about Altered class rules are the ADDED restrictions relative to Modified. It would make more sense if the only restrictions were regarding safety and streamlining. If you want to use a 2 gallon tank, great. If you want to allow your steering head to swing 45 degrees, great. If you want to use an OEM frame - great.
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Offline Stainless1

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Re: What ?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 10:59:25 AM »
Sabat... I agree... but I think they are just trying to define their definition of a  "purpose built race bike".  How would you discern a  "purpose built race bike" from a modified...

BTW, there are no tank size restrictions, they view steering head movement as a safety item for all classes and hopefully by next racing season no one will restrict A bikes from having an OEM frame.
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Stainless
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Offline Uncle Jimbo

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Re: What ?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2013, 11:42:29 AM »
Quote from: Stainless1 on October 22, 2013, 10:22:06 AM

I believe a special construction bike is not and can not be streetable.  If you can put a tag on it is it really a "purpose built race bike"... No.  If it has a headlight and turn signals that have to be taped over is it a  "purpose built race bike"...  Class jumpers take note... if it has been registered in P or M the same year it can't be a  "purpose built race bike"...
OK guys, I got it started for you.  How about some discussion from the bike guys.... car guys, remember this is in the Bub thread... SCTA bike guys, I remember your concerns being voiced in an earlier thread that it could happen to you so let's put the ideas on the table for discussion. 

I agree totally Stainless.  Our team has been struggling with these issues for nearly ten years. At the AMA/BUB venue we are legally in the M class - Chapter 5 Modified class rules - "This class is designed to advance the efficiency of production motorcycles attempting records and increase their strength and stability. Construction of the Modified motorcycle shall be based on the original design and geometry and not be purpose built."
Alterations are plainly explained, then in the last paragraph of the page states-
"Modified class can include factory produced off road, limited production and road racing motorcycles with less then 500 in production. This class does Not include factory produced road racing or any other specialized racing models unless available to the public"
The key there is the phrase - unless available to the public.  Gotta watch for those caveats.

The ECTA rules are a bit more specific and restrictive as to frame alterations.  By the way - Are SCTA rules fairly consistent with ECTA ?
Consequently we need to run Modified for AMA/BUB  -  and must run "Special Construction - A class" at ECTA & LTA  as a result of the frame alterations we had to make so our 100 cu. in. Sportster mtr. would fit in our 1998 Sportster frame.  If I didn't tell, most people would not even see the alterations.
 I did my best to keep it looking like a regular H.D. Sportster.    http://youtu.be/DN7EbWf1Wa4   Here is photo and explanation of what was done to the bike.

I agree that trying to cope with the sometimes subtle, and sometimes not so subtle differences in different venue rules can be frustrating to say the least.
We hope to join & make a SCTA event next year so I am sure there is an additional learning curve waiting there for us .  I am for sure of the train of thought that - When you go to someone else's neighborhood to play ball, you play by their rules, and no belly achin.   :cheers:
Three rule books on the desk now - guess I'll have to add a SCTA book also.  :-D

When it quits bein fun - then its time to quit
Jimbo
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From days of old, when knights were bold, and rode Iron Horses
24 Land Speed Records
M/PP 1350 AMA/BUB - M/CPG 1350 - M/CPF 1350 - LTA
M/PG 1650 - M/PF 1650 - AMA/BUB
A/PG 1650 - A/PF 1650 -  ECTA - LTA
Top speed to date 194.664

Offline joea

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Re: What ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2013, 11:46:32 AM »
thanks for the insight Stainless, with BUB considering input, to me, it legitimizes their
cause, and this thread and its discussion....


perhaps it could be, that the bodywork innovation could be fostered even more in this
type of class than the frame delineation....obviously that realm is primarily applicable to
partially streamlined....just throwing thoughts out there...i know there is already more
doable here..not sure where to draw the line (pun intended)....

i would hope to see FIM allow for max innovation as well somehow in this as it pertains to
altered/partially streamlined....ie rear of bike allowances....

ie allowing yet further rear enhancements, would likely need to have a stepped/tiered program of
some sort that requires incremental speed runs to show stability etc if rear allowed longer etc...more
management req obviously....but keeps safety paramount...

ADDITIONALLY SCTA has made pretty good template that separates the classes....if powers that be
move to keep AMA FIM SCTA etal as close as possible it might benefit everyone maximally....
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 11:59:29 AM by joea »
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Offline nrhs sales

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Re: What ?
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2013, 12:20:10 PM »
Jimbo,
Your bike even without any frame mods would have to run in A class at an SCTA event as you have S&S cases which automatically puts you in A.
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Offline Uncle Jimbo

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Re: What ?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 01:24:22 PM »
Yep - Thanks Dan - I have been told that already.  I will still get a rule book when I pony up to join.  :cheers:


Jimbo
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From days of old, when knights were bold, and rode Iron Horses
24 Land Speed Records
M/PP 1350 AMA/BUB - M/CPG 1350 - M/CPF 1350 - LTA
M/PG 1650 - M/PF 1650 - AMA/BUB
A/PG 1650 - A/PF 1650 -  ECTA - LTA
Top speed to date 194.664

Offline sabat

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Re: What ?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 02:06:06 PM »
Quote from: Stainless1 on October 22, 2013, 10:59:25 AM
Sabat... I agree... but I think they are just trying to define their definition of a  "purpose built race bike".  How would you discern a  "purpose built race bike" from a modified...

BTW, there are no tank size restrictions, they view steering head movement as a safety item for all classes and hopefully by next racing season no one will restrict A bikes from having an OEM frame.


In my opinion, Modified bikes should be allowed to enter an Altered class. Why not? If they can go faster, what's the problem?

In this way, you don't need to define Altered bikes - instead the Modified bikes are defined by restrictions. They must have OEM frames, they must have close-to-stock wheelbase, they must have restrictions on seat and control mounting, they cannot have an enclosed tail, etc etc.

Thanks for the info on AMA rules.

Dean
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