Author Topic: "Ground Effects" Tunnels  (Read 34997 times)

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Blue

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2011, 03:37:00 AM »
Reasonably clean without the skirt, extremely dirty with the skirt.

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2011, 10:27:15 AM »

Sparky, the comment "More than half the HP is inertial - you still have to accelerate the lead!   You don't have to accelerate down force! " is mostly BS, when you get to the speeds you are looking for, 300 mph+, the inertial loads are very small compared to the aero loads.

Rex 


If you reduce the weight of a 4000# vehicle by 500# (12.5%) that vehicle will get to it's potential terminal speed quicker and enter the traps faster. The shorter the run the more evident that is. But since that weight is needed for traction let's reshape the vehicle (add "Ground Effects" tunnels?) keeping the drag the same thereby improving the L/D and the V² will dial in the needed down force just as the aero door is trying to slam shut! Then the exit speed will be what is wanted. If the rules say you can't do that then you just have to throw more HP & lead at your lead-filled brick and hope for a really good traction day! (2X in a row!)

It's the area under the combined inertial, aero and rolling HP curves. How to reshape those curves within the limits of physics and the rulebook! And where to put the (aero?) lead and.... sounds more like a balancing act to me?? There is more than one way to skin a water buffalo and the water buffalo doesn't like any of them!  :-o

Now if that's mostly BS then I guess my comments aren't really welcome here!  :-(
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Offline maguromic

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2011, 11:29:18 AM »
Woody, as a coinsure of all things water buffalo (roadsters) I enjoy your impute. :cheers: Tony
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Offline Rick Byrnes

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2011, 12:30:30 PM »

"Reasonably clean without the skirt, extremely dirty with the skirt."

Blue, would you please elaborate on that statement.
Speed Demon seems to manage air flow around, rather than under the car.
Help us understand why a flat bottom, about 1 inch from the ground would be significantly cleaner than with a skirt, preventing the underbody airflow.
Rick

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2011, 02:27:19 PM »
Woody@DDLLCC,
Please do not construe my comments as not appreciating your thoughts regarding the use of tunnels for generating down force, my only comment is that "nothing is free" if you generate aero down force you will also generate drag. How do you propose to (your quote) "reshape the vehicle (add "Ground Effects" tunnels?) keeping the drag the same thereby improving the L/D ".   Also remember that the traction at Bonneville is typically at a .6 or less coefficient of friction which means that whether you are accelerating a 4000 lb car or a 3500 lb car you are going to be traction limited so they both will accelerate at the same rate until the "gound effects" on 3500 lb car can begin to generate sufficient  down force to increase traction and by this time the speed that the car would be at most of the traction is needed to overcome the Vsquared aero load not the acceleration load.

Woody, your turn to call my comments BS. If we don't kick this kind of stuff back and forth we can learn anything.

Rex

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Blue

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2011, 03:55:09 PM »
Rex, Woody: chill.  IM<HO, this conflict is coming up because everyone is starting to ask the really hard questions about how drag, L/D, inertia, and ballast-based traction all contradict each other in the current designs.  Hard questions about previously misunderstood subjects cause strong opinions from smart people.  You're both smart enough to understand what really works, the frustration is coming from a limited and partially inaccurate database.

Let's start with Rick's question and A2's comment about ride height vs. drag and design.  Any car without a full under tray has tons for stuff hanging out in the breeze for air to hit.  This leads to separation and stagnation drag (correctly simplified as "pressure" drag, incorrectly labeled "turbulence") on every single component.  One effect of all of the individual components is that the separated boundary layer under the car grows exponentially as the air blows around all of these protuberances.  For this reason, many years of Nascar R&D focused on the shape of oil pans with wings on them to act as downforce generators and to smooth things out.

As we lower the car without any other changes, this thick and disturbed boundary layer will tend to choke the flow between it and the ground.  This will cause both drag and lift.  Where this has already happened, raising the car may decrease drag by reducing the choking effect and giving the air under the car a place to go.

Lower the car/block the front to the limit/skirt the sides: the pressure under the car is reduced, downforce is increased, and very little air from under the car makes it to the back.  Why would this be an issue for LSR when it isn't for other racing?  In LSR, we need to reduce drag.  Without some air to fill in the back of the car, we have base drag: separation.

Now, a clean belly pan is going to have less drag than a bunch of miscellaneous components hanging out in the breeze.  So for a conventional car layout, the lowest drag/highest downforce arrangement would be letting a managed amount of air go under the car, skirt the sides, and direct that flow to help fill in the tail separation.  The designers of the Gus Gus streamliner have talked about this and how challenging it is.

A clean belly pan with a skirt at the front may generate even more downforce, simply by lowering the nose; i.e. changing to more negative alpha ("rake angle") without raking the chassis itself.

But there are costs: That skirt just stopped any air from going under the car to be used at the back end; more separation, more drag.  The air under that smooth pan and behind the blunt nose skirt is fully separated (more drag) and has no energy to be managed for downforce.  To get some downforce in a conventional car that air under the car must start out organized, be accelerated to achieve lower pressure (downforce), and stay attached and organized in the pressure recovery area to the tail where it can be directed up instead of just randomly out.

"Increasing downforce without increasing drag" sounds great, and it actually occurs when we start out with a badly separated back end or dirty belly, then clean things up and direct the air properly. If tunnels are used to do this, it appears that tunnels yield downforce and lower drag (for a bad design).

Whether using pencil or CFD, try making sure that every that every square inch of cross section at the back of the car had a source up front and that it's streamline is smooth going around every inch of length, top, bottom, and sides.  I'm not going to go into all of the detail theory other than to say, there is no "hole" to close:  if the car makes a hole in the first place, go back and start over.

Offline jl222

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2011, 03:58:39 PM »
  Fast Freddy has proven that downforce and wings work with his 386 mph lakester, and were not taking the spoiler off the 222 car.
  Jim Hall [one of the first to use spoilers] in the Chaparral book tells how downforce from spoilers improved lap times by being able to apply more throttle sooner in corners. Hall also found out you could run a good amount of spoiler angle without lossing rpm at top speed.
 Hall had their own private race course [ Rattlesnake] for testing.
 Look at the ralley cars with wings and the slower speeds they run at.
 
 Its BS to think that Freddy would run 20 mph faster [406 mph] without a wing in his current lakester.
 
 Don't forget Joe law's 349 mph winged C lakester

                    JL222


Offline manta22

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2011, 04:23:43 PM »
Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. Lots to think about. It sounds as if my stressed aluminum chassis bottom panel should work just fine as a belly pan.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline nebulous

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2011, 09:41:56 PM »
Don't build something that will slow you down, You might as well use lead!
Jack Costella   
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Offline Cajun Kid

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2011, 09:12:31 AM »
All this sounds very interesting,,, But is there a formula that will tell me how much rear wheel HP is needed for my 53 Studebaker to go 200MPH ?

I am headed to Loring with my backup "C" motor in 2 weeks makes the same peak HP as the E but at a lower RPM but more TQ all through the range..(my old E motor finally gave up and we don't have all the parts yet to get it done before Lorig,, hoping for WOS).

The C accelerates harder but gives up before the mile.. (only pulls to 7200 rpms,, we are fixing this witha re do now),
The E needs a faster push but revs and pulls all the way to 8500+ (the standing mile is to short for the little E)

How can areo help me in a standing paved 1 and 1.5 mile track and also what chnages for Bonneville ?

Charles

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Offline hotrod

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2011, 09:55:34 AM »
You can get a ball park guess using the old rule of thumb that power goes up at the cube of the speed.
As I recall the Studebaker coupes of that period in street trim needed about 12 -15 hp to cruise at 60 mph.

200 mph / 60 mph = 3.333

3.333 cubed = 37.03, so it will take a "minimum" of 37 times the power it takes to cruise at 60 mph.

If that number is 12 hp, then you will need 444 hp (if you body is essentially stock configuration)
and if it is 15 hp, you will need a minimum of 555 hp.

There are also some discussions regarding power require in the formulas forum, this one has a simple program I wrote that helps calculate the power required with a bit more detailed input information.



http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,7775.0.html

Larry

Offline dw230

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2011, 11:13:41 AM »
1000 hp will be ball park.

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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2011, 11:52:24 AM »
  Cajon, my 53 Stude went 219 @ 4300 lbs. with 630  h.p.  435 cu. in. in B/CFALT
  Last year it went 238 @ 5200 lbs. with 835  h.p.  496 cu. in in A/CFALT
  Bruce Geisler ran his 53 from the early 60's until four years ago with probably at least 20 different engine combo's.  He once told me that 500 rw h.p. will get you to 200 in a 53 Stude.
  By the way, my 219 was at 7200' density altitude with my 1960 Old's motor.............  Bob
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 01:13:40 PM by Bob Drury »
Bob Drury

Offline Stan Back

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2011, 05:14:03 PM »
Yeah, Bob --

But I bet those HP figures were Washington (like North Carolina) figures, not 5500-7500-ft. figures.

Stan
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: "Ground Effects" Tunnels
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2011, 06:08:31 PM »
   Stan, right you are....................
Bob Drury