Rider position

[SPARKY]

Hans devices are going to put another wrinkle on the bulldog:
---one has virtually unlimited compression the other limits it---hummm 
 if it flies it almost certainly is going to land motor first then it is conventional position impact  hummm

[bak189]

What I find most interesting is this another "sidecar" because the solo liner has been outlawed....OK
lets hang a sidecar on it!  This kind of thinking has been going on for many years.....if you have a twin-engine solo streamliner that cannot compete with the big boys....let's make a sidecar out of it.  If you want to be the champion at the lakes....lets hang a sidecar on our solo bike and make  points, even take a 125c.c. bike and hang a sidecar on it to make points and be the years champion....................
Very few sidecars racing LSR in the past and certainly at this point in time have been build and raced as
"lets go real sidecar racing" .  there are a few exceptions, but not many.   

[wolbrink471]

These Guy's all go head first



what's the problem?

Hey, Wade and Boyd have always been 'that' way about things!!

[bak189]

That is Wade Boyd out of SF. CA. as driver... and his girl friend as passenger....they are one of the fastest team in N. America sidecar roadracing................and they put on a great show at every event.

[ChrisLenahan]

I would think the first place to start in an enquiry such as this is to gather data on real sidecar crashes.  Get what footage you can and talk to the witnesses and crew then try to determine if there is a pattern to them and how they impact the ground and the severity of the damage to the riders and equipment.  By studying what has happened you can get an idea of the forces encountered also.  Without this information you are just guessing about the safest position. 

[RichFox]

So far it is my understanding that the SCTA is not interested in open sidecar crashes but only in streamliners in which the driver is strapped in. The feeling, correct I think, is the driver being thrown free type of crash has nothing common with a 'liner. To be fair you must consider that the board has a  responsibility to the membership to keep the Association solvent. This requires a balance between caving into the insurance carriers desire for a completely risk negative event, and the Rollie Free's among us. Not an easy task. But if the insurance becomes unobtainable or unpayable we don't race. To this end it would be good if someone knows of some NASA or FAA or other research into various seating positions in post war experimental aircraft. This must have come up.

[bak189]

So it basiclly comes down to the rider/driver in a prone position......and it has nothing to do with sidecars.
In regards to a study of sidecar streamliner crashes.....to date there have been none........and none of the drivers of the sidecar liners competing to date drive in the head first position .....feet first... yes.


PS. Please, don't start this thing again about insurance.......most of this "insurance will not allow it"
     is pure BS...

[John Noonan]

I only know of one side car that went down and it was right off the line and many have seen it, the rider was more embarrassed than hurt and has gone to race several more times since.

Steges sidecar I don't feel is legal since he is more in the bike than he is on the bike however he has gone over 200mph and set several records however I think at World of Speed or World Finals events and not Speed Week.

I went down recently faster than any open wheel rider in history and not only hit head and chest first I was able to walk away with minor injuries...once you start flying, rolling, and sliding I don't think it matters what position you are in when you are at the starting line.

Hitting either a stationary object or an incident where a vehicle goes end over end or pencil rolls is another story however.


Noonan

[bak189]

Yes, that sidecar "tip over" just off the line was ours.....not Larry C. fault (our driver) we had mechanical
mishap...

Regarding, John Steges very fast records at the USFRA meet some moons ago.....the SCTA book show him getting our streamliner record......his outfit was NOT a streamliner, but a open kneeler type outfit,
at the time of John S. record setting runs I send a letter to SCTA/BNI indicating that they allowed him to race in the wrong class, and I also noted that John S. was kneeling in a box and if he had a problem he would not be able to exit the outfit safely.........Nothing was done....everything normal......................

[John Noonan]

Bob,

I was an inspector at one of the events he raced at and did note that I did not feel his bike was safe or class compliant regarding be able to "exit the vehicle" in the event of and accident.  I wrote it in his SCTA logbook..he also had another safety related issue that other racers had to make changes in order to be able to run.

Larrys problem was a broken swing arm/chain tensioner from my notes..he then went on to make all other passes safe and class compliant.

J

PS...I have that rim and tire for you, do you want me to bring it to El Mirage for this event?

J

[ChrisLenahan]

I'm wondering if the concern is due to the possibility of a frontal impact or of properly restraining the rider in the prone position.  It would seem to me that any other type of crash other than a frontal impact in a streamliner the rider's position (prone or seated) would not be a factor in the injuries sustained.  Prone might even be safer for the spine.  I'm new to LSR so I'm just trying to apply my own common sense to the problem.

[Stainless1]

Regarding, John Steges very fast records at the USFRA meet some moons ago.....the SCTA book show him getting our streamliner record......his outfit was NOT a streamliner, but a open kneeler type outfit,
at the time of John S. record setting runs I send a letter to SCTA/BNI indicating that they allowed him to race in the wrong class, and I also noted that John S. was kneeling in a box and if he had a problem he would not be able to exit the outfit safely.........Nothing was done....everything normal......................

And his records are sidecar gas and fuel, built under the "Wink E" sidecar rules, not streamliner.  John is in a Box, with about 12 inch sides, he is on his knees, nothing strapping him in, he could fall out if he needed to exit, but more likely he would be pitched out, just like any other open or PS bike.

So back to this thread... is someone in the SCTA trying to keep Costella from running  his flat bottom bikes as sidecars?

[RichFox]

I am told that the current ruling is that the 5050 bike would not be accepted for competition if configured and entered as a sidecar.

[BudJ63]

Did a search on head first/feet first impacts. Amazing what you can find!

NASA study on suicide jumpers off of the Golden Gate Bridge. ca. 1967

"Injuries received in water impact often differ in both nature and patterns from those impacts occurring on steel, soil or concrete, primarily in the lower incidence of fractures and external lesions. But two major factors play an important role in this regard, in either water or non water impact: duration of deceleration and body orientation. Previous studies have demonstrated that a water impact in the feet-first (+G,,) body orientation can result in considerably less trauma than an impact in lateral or transverse positions due to the smaller surface and thus longer deceleration involved."

Whole report:  http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0688424

Bud


(I need to get out to the garage!)

[bak189]

The big problem is that SCTA/BNI will change a class designation depending who ever is in charge at the
time.  Many of our sidecar records, including the streamliner record, were changed to
 other designations and class............. if you change the rules and/or designation,  the records that were set prior to the change should be retired.  This is the way the FIM handles rule and class changes.
A example :... the rule change on no sidecar passengers in the late 1980's, the old records set with a passenger should have been retired.  I can well understand that thinking and times change, but if a change is made in order to keep a level playing field retire the old records and start the new class.
If I recall correctly Jack and his outstanding m/c streamliners set several fast SCTA/BNI records with his "outlawed" liner, now that the officials have decided in their wisdom his liner is not legal......they should retire Jack's records. It is the only proper way to give credit to Jack's effort and work.