Author Topic: Nuclear Catastrophie  (Read 39152 times)

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DocBeech

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Nuclear Catastrophie
« on: March 12, 2011, 06:47:31 AM »
Im sure you all have been following this disaster but at this point its turned extremely bad. Here is some information if you havn't followed it all that closely. The dangerous point I want to make is the trade winds that travel from Japan to the US West Coast and through Hawaii. This is going from extremely bad to world disaster.

The nuclear power plant finally exploded. Down hill from here :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_japan_earthquake

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/japans-fukushima-no1-nuclear-power-plant-explodes/story-e6frfku0-1226020387955

Pressure at one of the plants is at 2.1 times the max, so they have radiation leaking out of one of the power plants. The leak has been confirmed and is blowing towards the sea.

http://www.vancouversun.com/Officials+warn+possible+radiation+leak/4429753/story.html

Also they have confirmed that 3 of the 4 reactors on the second plant have cooling systems that have now failed.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4581359/japanese-nuclear-plants-cooling-systems-fail/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/11/japan-tsunami-earthquake-live-coverage

5 total reactors have lost cooling systems. Radiation is at 1000 times the normal level, and pressure is at 2.1 times the max acceptable load. Pressure levels are unable to be controlled now.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2011, 12:04:26 PM »
We have a fellow land speed racer in Japan.  Nagoya, I think.  He is Kasutoshi "Kaz" Mizutani.  Nice guy and he races an HD in the FIM class at BUB.  I sure hope he is OK, and everyone else, too.  In fact, I hope we get this mess figured out soon.       

Offline donpearsall

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2011, 12:34:13 PM »
Wasn't one of the selling points of nuclear reactors that they could withstand earthquakes? Were we sold a pack of lies? I want non-fossil power too, but not if it means a melt down whenever there is a strong earthquake.
Don
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2011, 02:04:11 PM »
I'll jump in to defend nukes -- even though I'm not a nuclear-trained person.  And -- I'm not an earthquake specialist, either. . .

But the 8.9 magnitude 'quake in Japan the other day - is a really bad-axx quake, especially when compared to others by someone that remembers high school physics and math.  In physics we learned about earthquake magnitudes being measured by the Richter scale, which name has now been dropped -- it's plain old "magnitude" now.  And in math we learned that the scale for earthquakes is logarithmic -- that is, each whole number is ten times the previous number - so a magnitude 8.8 quake, like the Japanese one the other day, was more than 200++ times as severe as the one that shook the San Fernando area in 1971 (6.5), half again as big as the one that messed up so much and caused fires in San Francisco in 1906 (8.3), and even a little bit more than the big 'quake in Anchorage, Alaska in 1964 (8.6).  There -- that's a reminder of the way the ground-shakers are measured and described.

Then there's the way stuff is built to withstand a quake.  I don't know the numbers for American nukes, much less Japanese ones, but I do know that not only do all of them get built to withstand a X.X magnitude quake, but also that the size of that required number is also influenced by the frequency of that size quake in that specific area.    Here's a table I copied from a USGS website:

MS       Earthquakes
              per year
 ----------  -----------
 8.5 - 8.9       0.3
 8.0 - 8.4       1.1
 7.5 - 7.9       3.1
 7.0 - 7.4      15
 6.5 - 6.9      56
 6.0 - 6.4     210

So, anyway, nothing can be built to withstand every quake that'll ever happen.  Rather - they're built to withstand one that's relatively likely to occur in the next YYYY years, which probably means that since less-severe quakes happen more frequently than the big ones -- the nuke (or highway overpass or the skyscraper) is built to withstand the rigors of a quake likely to happen during a time span shorter than the bunch of years for "the Big One".

As for the Japan reactors that are in trouble -- I haven't yet heard the latest on whether the reactor's metal shell has been cracked open, or whether the damage was only (?) to the concrete building that housed the reactor vessel.  I did hear yesterday that there was some radiation leaking out, so that implies something went wrong inside the reactor vessel - since nothing radioactive is allowed out by the very process used.  The stuff the literally goes inside and gets intimate with the radioactive material is cooled in a heat transfer device and sent back to the reactor core for more heat.  Unh, think of an intercooler on your blown engine - to keep the cooler cooling you not only pass ice water through it but even maybe some nitrous.  The water and the goofy gas doesn't ever get into the engine, just like the radioactivity doesn't get out to the cooling medium.  I know that the coolant was not getting moved properly, and that that happened because the electricity that powered those pumps had been cut off.  Without being cooled continuously - the reactor's nuclear fuel continues to give off heat, getting hotter and hotter (thermally, not radioactively) until maybe it's so hot that the fuel (usually in rods) starts to melt.  And when that happens the nuclear material ends up in a puddle/mass -- where it's much closer to other nuclear fuel and therefore starts generating even more heat - and eventually can, if not controlled somehow, can literally melt through everything trying to hold it contained - everything being the concrete shell around the vessel, the foundation of the building, and sooner or later it would start down through the earth underneath the reactor, ergo the nickname "the China Syndrome" -- which teased that the melted mass would keep going down 'til it went right through the earth and ended up in China (geography be damned).

So -- reactors are built pretty well, built well enough to withstand a shock that's likely to happen in the neighborhood, and built to keep radioactivity in.

Back to listening to the news about Japan.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2011, 02:26:32 PM »
It wasn't the earthquake. The facility was well built to survive that. The tsunami took out the backup generators to run the cooling pumps. There was some battery backup for a few hours.

At the Fukushima Daiichi facility the #1 unit lost coolant for long enough for massive overheating. The temperatures, not doubt caused by core melting, broke down the water into hydrogen gas. The explosion was from hydrogen gas buildup. The shock wave on the video was massive and no doubt destroyed or damaged all remaining hope of saving the reactor. Four employees were injured and are being treated for radioactive poisoning.

They are now pumping in sea water and boric acid in an untested (they threw the book out long ago) method to prevent total meltdown.
The massively radioactive water will no doubt be dumped in the ocean.

This is without doubt the third worst nuclear incident (out of 18!) after Chernobyl and 3 Mile Island. This is only the fourth (after those two and Idaho Falls in 1961) to release radioactivity into the atmosphere.

The "good" news is the wind is blowing out to sea. Towards us.

Units 2 and 3 are still a big unknown. They don't have cooling either. They are using convection only.
Units 4-6 were already shut down for maintenance. Unit 2 is low on water.

The Fukushima Daini plant a few miles down the road is in similar shape. Units 1-4 don't have any cooling. Atmospheric releases of radioactive steam are occurring on all four. Unit 3 they claim to have a cold shutdown. Unit 4 has exceeded 212F. They have declared an emergency zone around this facility.
A crane operator was killed in the earthquake.

Defend nukes? Even if nothing happened we have to protect the radioactive material for 40,000 years. Oh wait, something did happen.
It may be weeks or months before we find out the true horror of this event.
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2011, 05:36:26 PM »
I used to work as an emergency planner for my state office of emergency management. Part of my responsibility involved developing response plans for and test exercises for both a nuclear power plant and a defense installation that processed radioactive material.

My first comment would be lets not get carried away, with speculation. Second DO NOT TRUST THE MEDIA to give you accurate and useful information on this event. They have a 50 year history of being technologically incompetent with things like radiological emergencies, and the vast majority of what you see in the news will be half truths, misinterpreted facts, and just plain stupid. Almost everything the media said about 3 mile island was wrong or exaggerated (of course the fact that the local government officials were idiots did not help).

The Chernobyl accident did turn out to be a major problem to the emergency responders, but that was due to an un-contained design (no pressure vessel), an inherently unstable design that was prone to run away at low power levels (a design that would never have been approved in any other industrial country), and intentional efforts by the operational staff to by-pass and turn off safety devices. There is still conflicting information regarding Chernobyl and if there are any statistically significant long term impacts to the exposed populations.

The Japanese designs should be a far cry from both those earlier reactor designs.

Second, just because the media says "radiation is leaking" does not mean it is bad. Radiation can be detected at extraordinarily low levels. For example following the Three Mile Island incident they collected tongues from white tail deer from an area within 50 mi of the plant. They did test to have higher levels of CS137 than  deer in nearby counties but those levels were still less than seen in deer in other parts of the country when we were actively testing nuclear weapons.

"The average radiation dose to people living within ten miles of the TMI plant was eight millirem, and no more than 100 millirem to any single individual. Eight millirem is about equal to a chest X-ray, and 100 millirem is about a third of the average background level of radiation received by US residents in a year. These are radiation exposures we all receive on a routine basis. My average daily radiation exposure just due to living in Colorado is about 2 mr/day, so the total average exposure received within 50 miles of the TMI plant was roughly equivalent to visiting Denver Colorado for 4 days.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/env_rpt/aser95/tb-a-2.pdf

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/R/Radiation.html

Assessing radiation exposure after a release is very complex and the media are no where near qualified to condense that information into a sound bite for the 5:00 news.

Iodine 131 is the isotope that will probably be of the most concern, and it has a half life (time it takes for 1/2 of it to decay and cease to be radioactive) of just a tad over 8 days. It emits a soft gamma ray and a beta particle. Beta particles are stopped by a thin layer of any material. It will not penetrate a thin sheet of aluminum and only penetrates the skin about 1-2 mm. It is not a significant external radiation hazard, but is an inhalation risk. Its absorption can be blocked by natural iodine or potassium iodide pills to flood the body with non-radioactive iodine so it is not absorbed. Any radiological release in Japan from this will not make it across the Pacific ocean in any significant dose even if an absolutely catastrophic release were to happen.

Bottom line the media's representation of the risk is probably 100 - 1,000,000 times higher than reality. Radiological consequences of medical significance are only likely in the very nearby area.

We simply do not have enough information to determine what the facts are yet. They are trying to shut the reactor down, now and even the on scene experts will have no clue what the damages are for days or weeks.

Given Japan's experience with large scale radiation effects you can be certain that they are being extremely cautious in their evacuation actions.

I personally would not worry at all about the radiological consequences from these incidence for any one outside of the immediate area of the plant. You would likely get more radiation exposure on the airplane flight over to Japan than the local residents will receive outside the local plant area.

By the way just to show how we routinely accept radiation exposure on a daily basis -- did you guys know that bananas are radioactive? Bananas are high in potassium which has a naturally occurring radioactive isotope. You are surrounded by and eat radioactive material all the time. It is a natural part of our world and there is some evidence that low levels of radiation actually stimulate the immune system for damaged tissue repair in the body.

http://chemistry.about.com/b/2010/03/08/bananas-are-radioactive-2.htm

Larry
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 05:49:17 PM by hotrod »

Offline Glen

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2011, 06:45:25 PM »
Larry I agree with you. The media will do anything to get a story, ask 10 people and they get 10 different views and use what they think will make the best story. Panic sells news and papers. I also was in the safety end of things at Douglas and Boeing and we were not allowed to discuss anything with the media. All meetings were behind closed doors and a person was assigned to give out press releases etc.

At any event like this earth quake everyone is concerned and and want answers, for sure worry about their families and homes. Even in todays world of instant news connections it goes nuts by the time other party's pass it on as the story changes with each conversation. I feel sorry for those people and wish I could help. The panic after the hurricane Katrina and the aftermath that's still going on after all these years is proof.

God bless those people and their losses.

Glen
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South West, Utah

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 07:17:47 PM »
Thanks for the very lucid information Larry. I only wish the media would do some research and follow up their alarmist stories with some more factual material in the following days.

Pete

Offline aircap

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 09:18:27 PM »
Quote
Thanks for the very lucid information Larry. I only wish the media would do some research and follow up their alarmist stories with some more factual material in the following days.

Yeah. Right. Like that's gonna happen.

Three Mile Island was a complete fabricated crisis. No one got so much as a hangnail from it, no radiation was released, and it was never close to a meltdown.

I get so tired of the chicken-headed stupidity of all those morons making knee-jerk responses every time you hear so much as a fart near a nuclear facility. I am tired of the "not in my backyard" legions who have kept American from being a leader in safe, productive, nonpolluting nuclear fueled electric powerplants. The French have done it, and never had a lick of trouble.
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Offline fastman614

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 09:44:50 PM »
Quote
Thanks for the very lucid information Larry. I only wish the media would do some research and follow up their alarmist stories with some more factual material in the following days.

Yeah. Right. Like that's gonna happen.

Three Mile Island was a complete fabricated crisis. No one got so much as a hangnail from it, no radiation was released, and it was never close to a meltdown.

I get so tired of the chicken-headed stupidity of all those morons making knee-jerk responses every time you hear so much as a fart near a nuclear facility. I am tired of the "not in my backyard" legions who have kept American from being a leader in safe, productive, nonpolluting nuclear fueled electric powerplants. The French have done it, and never had a lick of trouble.

One of your more eloquent politicians of yesteryear (Adlai Stevenson) was quoted as sayint that a newsroom editor is a person who separates the "wheat from the chaff" and then goes ahead and prints the "chaff"....

Well, Three Mile Island may well have been a fabricated crisis.... all the indicators are that it was.... but remember Chernobyl in the Ukraine (the USSR at the time).... it WAS a catastrophe!.... whether the Japanese situation is of the magnitude of that or not, only time will tell. I would think that the Japanese will be more amenable to receiving help from the rest of the world than the Soviets were in the mid 80s....
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Offline fastman614

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 10:10:04 PM »
Have a look at this link to yahoo news regarding the severity of the nuclear events in Japan....

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/japan-rates-quake-less-serious-3-mile-island-20110312-075629-316.html
No s*** sticks to the man wearing a teflon suit.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 10:55:05 PM »
I worked at Diablo Nuclear Power Plant in San Luis Obispo County two different times in the mid 1990's during their shut downs for refueling. I wanted to see first hand what Nuclear Power was all about.

The Diablo Plant was very well maintained, and very well built. The domes over the reactors were made to withstand the impact of a 747 Jet. The dome was three foot thick concrete, loaded with rebar. On one shutdown I was assigned to work in the dome, that in itself was very interesting. I went to school for a week, learning how to work and also how to dress and undress in special clothes, that included boots and headgear.

When going into an area that may have radiation, you had a complete body scan when you came out of the area. At the end of the 6 to 8 weeks when refueling was complete and you were terminated you went in and had another body scan to see how much accumulated radiation you had.

Overall I felt very safe while working there, under normal circumstances. I would not want to be there in an earthquake like the one that just happened in Japan. Why you ask? IMO They don't have any good provisions for storing the spent fuel rod. I was told it is stored in a building behind the plant in a big pool which is filled with Boric Acid. I asked how they empty the pool and transport the spent fuel rod, and the answer I got is they don't.  Seems like no one wants spent fuel rod in their back yard, or transported through their towns.

It is my opinion, that until they come up with a way to get rid of the spent fuel rod, no nuclear plant is safe from Mother Nature. Whether it be a 100 year flood or Tsunami, or a 100 year Earthquake.

Tom G.
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Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2011, 10:50:42 AM »
Keep up those "Wheat vs Chaff" thoughts as they admit that a partial meltdown has occurred in a second reactor.

Just coming on to the radar: "excessive radiation levels were recorded at Onagawa nuclear plant."

They have treated 160 residents for high levels of radioactivity.

Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) runs these facilities. They have shut them down twice in the past for falsifying records. The industry and the government have a history of under reporting incidents.

Stay tuned, this ain't done yet.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2011, 11:52:43 AM »
For anyone looking for "official" sources for information a good place to start is here:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/index.html

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110313-3.pdf

Given all that is going on, the Nuclear reactor issues do not appear to be all that significant (compared to what they could be). Off site radiation levels are no where near "catastrophic", and in line with what would be expected given the situation.

Immediate waste heat production after the Fukushima 1  plant was scrammed (emergency shut down) should be considerably reduced by now. From what I have been reading, immediately after shut down, it probably was producing heat at the rate of 95 mega watts. After 48 hours that should have dropped as fission products from power production decayed away to something like 7-8 MW and by now it should be in the range of 5-6 MW after 72 hours. As a result the longer they keep the reactor stable the safer the situation is. They likely have some minor fuel element damage due to over heating, but not a "melt down" as the general, public interprets that rather inexact term.

Larry

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Nuclear Catastrophie
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2011, 12:53:39 PM »
That is the most "sanitized" report I have seen.

A better source is the plant operator TEPCO
http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/index-e.html

Quote
Given all that is going on, the Nuclear reactor issues do not appear to be all that significant (compared to what they could be)

Run away heating in SEVEN nuclear reactors isn't significant?

At the time of the earthquake all of the control rods were reinserted. We don't know what the power output was prior to the earthquake. Since the #1 unit had the most problems it may have been at a higher rate of output. Heat generation stops at this point. Residual heat is still at a high level.
The cooling system is operating normally at this point. Shortly after the external power went out.

The backup diesel generators kicked in. Every unit has two generators so that one is always available if maintenance is performed on the other one.

An hour later the tsunami destroyed all of the generators. I have yet to hear that power has been restored. At this point in time there is no cooling and the operator panel is dark. Any valve turned has to be done manually.

The only cooling available is to allow convection cooling and it is very limited. This would describe all 7 reactors in operation.

As the temperature rises at some point the water rises above the boiling point. TEPCO is required by law to report when this level is passed. The reports from their web site show the time this happened.

As the pressure rises at some point the pressure vessel limit is reached and radioactive steam must be released to prevent breaching the pressure vessel. TEPCO is required by law to report when this happens. All of the reactors have been vented. An uncontrolled release of radioactivity isn't a trivial event. Imagine this happening in your backyard. At this point all of the structure is radioactive. Any work done exposes workers. Including manually turning valves.

Low water levels were reported in several units. Uncovered rods at some point begin to melt. When the temperature passes 2200 degrees the water disassociates into hydrogen gas. This is well known and documented in reactors. The gas should have been released to the atmosphere through a flare stack outside. Through some failure mechanism (like no power) it was released into the building.

The explosion shown on tv was certainly a hydrogen gas explosion. Despite the government saying the containment vessel was intact, the explosion probably severed pipes into the reactor. Hydrogen gas buildup in the other reactors may be happening. It has been reported in the #3 unit. A nuclear power plant exploded. Wrap your head around that.

When they got to the point where they started injecting sea water and boric acid into the #1 unit they have given up any hope of saving the reactor and are doing a Hail Mary to try and prevent melting through the bottom. This very old reactor has a weak design underneath and that is very possible. Some experts don't predict that this will work.

They are now injecting sea water and boric acid into the #3 reactor due to the same circumstances.

The final analysis is months away and the result may be "minor fuel element damage" to quote someone. Hard to believe that an uncontrolled melting of any size can be "minor".

The latest report from TEPCO
Quote
Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station:
  Units 1 to 3: shutdown due to earthquake
  Units 4 to 6: outage due to regular inspection
* The national government has instructed evacuation for those local
residents within 20km radius of the site periphery.
* The value of radioactive material (iodine, etc) is increasing according
to the monitoring car at the site (outside).
* Since the amount of radiation at the boundary of the site exceeds the
limits, we decide at 4:17PM, Mar 12 and we have reported and/or noticed
the government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of the Article 15
of the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5PM, Mar 12. The radiation dose at
the monitoring post decreased once. Today, the measured value revamped and
the radiation dose measured at site boundary exceeded the limiting value
again. As such, at 8:56AM, today, it was determined that a specific incident
stipulated in article 15, clause 1 occurred and at 09:01AM, today, notified
accordingly.
After that, the measured value by the monitoring car decreased once, however
the value revamped and the radiation dose measured at site boundary exceeded
the limitation again. As such, at 2:15PM, today, it was determined that a
specific incident stipulated in article 15, clause 1 occurred and at 02:23PM,
today, notified accordingly.
* In addition, a vertical earthquake hit the site and big explosion has
happened near the Unit 1 and smoke breaks out around 3:36PM, Mar 12th.
* Unit 1: We started injection of sea water into the reactor core at 8:20PM,
Mar 12 and then boric acid subsequently. We are coordinating with the
relevant authorities and departments as to how to cool down water in the
spent nuclear fuel pool.
* Unit 2: Reactor has been shut down and Reactor Core Isolation Cooling
System has been injecting water to the reactor. Current reactor water level
is lower than normal level, but the water level is steady. After fully
securing safety, we are preparing to implement a measure to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels under the instruction of the
national government. To do so, we operated the vent valve and completed the
operation at 11:00AM, Mar 13.
* Unit 3: High Pressure Coolant Injection System automatically stopped. We
endeavored to restart the Reactor Core Isolation Cooling System but failed.
Also, we could not confirm the water inflow of Emergency Core Cooling System.
As such, we decided at 5.10AM, Mar 12, and we reported and/or noticed the
government agencies concerned to apply the clause 1 of the Article 15 of
the Radiation Disaster Measure at 5:58AM, Mar 13.
In order to fully secure safety, we operated the vent valve to reduce the
pressure of the reactor containment vessels (partial release of air
containing radioactive materials) and completed the procedure at 8:41AM,
Mar 13 (successfully completed at 09:20AM, Mar 13. After that, we began
injecting water containing boric acid that absorbs neutron into the reactor
by the fire pump from 09:25AM, Mar 13.
Taking account of the situation that the water level within the pressure
vessel did not rise for a long time and the radiation dose is increasing,
we cannot exclude the possibility that the same situation occurred at Unit
1 on Mar 12 will occur. We are considering the countermeasure to prevent
that.

Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.