Anybody interisted in running E85?

[Rick Byrnes]

Alcohol is for drinking (specially corn likker)

Gasoline is for washing parts

NITRO is for racing\

well, maybe Hydrogen too...........

[dw230]

Production or aftermarket blocks that are the same as OEM supplied engines are allowed in Production classes. You can go up or down in displacement with these engines and remain in Production.

So it appears that the S10 is legal and the modified 454 in AA/PP is legal.

4.N   ENGINE SWAP:
An engine swap is defined as the use of an engine from an engine design family that was not available as a factory or dealer installed option for a given vehicle year is used.
An engine design family is defined as engines which are made with the same basic material, have the same bore centers, crankshaft supports, deck height, cam location, head mounting, bell-housing and engine mount patterns, etc. All OEM parts shall fit the block without modification.
The use of an OEM or aftermarket replacement engine block from the same design family is not considered a swap. “Crate engines” are not considered engine swaps. Direct replacement aftermarket engine blocks are not considered engine swaps (Dart, World Products, etc.) if they meet the above engine swap design definition criteria.

DW

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

Peter,

You bring up some good points. Since this is an all volunteer organization, and only a handful of people actually contribute, I say we do away with the production class. It is just not worth the hassle.

Tom G. 

Well maybe you should file a rule change request.  Any organization  should represent the views of its members, the majority opinion should win out. If you want to eliminate production and the board agrees with you, I'm cool with that.

I do find you position interesting, kind of like the baseball player complaining about what a pain the fans are, but without the fans the baseball player doesn't have a job.  Yes the majority of the racers do not volunteer, but without the racers you do not have an event.   

[interested bystander]

Re: Production:

An interesting example of what can be done in the category.

Doug Kruse, Jerry Mallicoat and Jim Heffel took a show room NEW Chevy Turbo Cobalt and put in a destroked crank to run G PS instead of the factory displacement class.

Got  a record at just over the minimum at ELMO this year.

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

Re: Production:

An interesting example of what can be done in the category.

Doug Kruse, Jerry Mallicoat and Jim Heffel took a show room NEW Chevy Turbo Cobalt and put in a destroked crank to run G PS instead of the factory displacement class.

Got  a record at just over the minimum at ELMO this year.

2010 Colbalt SS shows a displacement of 2.0L which would be in G engine class. If he ran H (1.5L)  I would be really impressed.

[jdincau]

[/quote]
2010 Colbalt SS shows a displacement of 2.0L which would be in G engine class. If he ran H (1.5L)  I would be really impressed.
[/quote]

Be prepared to be impressed because he ran 135.712 in H/PS

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

In SCTA, Production is more of a body class than an engine class -- at least when it comes to modifications.

And relating "Production" engines to production engines is foolhearty.  Like believing NASCAR has someting to do with stock cars.

 -- Oh, I said that already.
Stan

I don't know the roots of the production class are, but other than body, you must have a dash, door panels and other interior components, original gas tank, a horn all or your lights .   To me the production class shows who makes the best engine/car combination.  Ford VS Chevy etc.   In modified its any (car) body any engine. so the best of everything.

[desotoman]

 

Is Bonneville racing stuck in the past?   Carburetors and leaded fuel seem to be dominant.  Things that have not existed on production cars for 20 years or more. 

LOL at least we are more progressive than NASCAR. Last time I looked they still run Carburetors.

Caddy made a 500 inch motor in 1970 which is legal in production and when bored .030 would be 507,  so would we not need an AA engine class in production.

Your analogy of the baseball player and the fans is not quite accurate as the production class is only a small fraction of the classes which make up the organization.

Tom G.

[interested bystander]

Apologies.  Kruse's record is in H! - It's highlighted in red in the El Mirage record list on the website.

He says there's more in it if they can make the MUD tires hook up on the 13th.

[Milwaukee Midget]

I don't know the roots of the production class are, but other than body, you must have a dash, door panels and other interior components, original gas tank, a horn all or your lights .   To me the production class shows who makes the best engine/car combination.  Ford VS Chevy etc.   In modified its any (car) body any engine. so the best of everything.

The idea, at least from my point of view, and the ideal that I've carried during my I/GT build, is to stretch the capabilities of a production combination to their ultimate capabilities within the confines of the rules. 

Production and GT are categories for those of us who are willing to work within the structure to achieve a car that still has a clear and verifiable lineage to the car as it rolled off of the assembly line.  Other sanctioning bodies would describe this as "limited prep".

I've said this before, and I'll say it again - I enjoy the discipline that the restrictive nature of the rules for GT provide.  Production classes, IMHO, offer the ultimate challenge in this sport.

[hotrod]

Yes, a racer will look to the best available fuel for his combination. As you stated E85 does not have the same energy as racing gas. Which would the dedicated racer choose? Do we need a poll?

DW

They would choose the fuel that suites their needs. Fuel energy per gallon is absolutely irrelevant for performance.

Based on that criteria which fuel would you use?

Using the lower heating values you get:
Typical gasoline Thermal energy 18,676 BTU/lb
Typical methanol Thermal energy 8,637 BTU/lb
Typical nitromethane Thermal energy 5,000 BTU/lb

Energy density per pound or gallon is a meaningless metric for fuel performance, what counts is how much of it you can burn with a given amount of combustion air since internal combustion spark ignition engines are air limited.
When you look at it from the point of view of energy available for a given amount of intake air E85 actually outperforms methanol slightly, plus being easier to start in cold conditions, less corrosive, less prone to milking the oil, and runs cooler for the same power level than gasoline and improves the spool on turbocharged engines due to the higher exhaust gas volume. to mention a few other advantages.

Using the lower heating values you get:
Typical gasoline Thermal energy 18,676 BTU/lb Gasoline Max power rich    12.5:1 = 1494 BTU/lb
Typical gasoline Thermal energy 18,676 BTU/lb Gasoline Max power lean    13.23:1 = 1411.6 BTU/lb
Typical E85 Thermal energy 12648 BTU/lb rich max power fuel air mixture 6.48:1 = 1951.8 BTU/lb
Typical E85 Thermal energy 12648 BTU/lb lean max power fuel air mixture 7.38:1 = 1713.8 BTU/lb
Typical ethanol Thermal energy 11,585 BTU/lb 9.00:1 stoich fuel air mixture = 1287 BTU/lb
Typical methanol Thermal energy 8,637 BTU/lb  6.45:1 stoich fuel air mixture = 1339  BTU/lb
Typical methanol Thermal energy 8,637 BTU/lb 5.00:1 max power rich fuel air mixture = 1727.4 BTU/lb


It seems to have plenty of performance potential for those that know how to tune it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td5YZMkkGPU

We have an '07 Tahoe.  I ordered it without Flex Fuel -- at no added cost -- because the gas only engine was rated 1 MPG higher highway than the Flex Fuel gas rating.  Not much difference, but a difference.  And maybe less complicated parts to go wrong.  So years later, how would one tell if a vehicle was produced with or without Flex Fuel?

There is no physical difference between the gasoline engines and the flex fuel engines in most cases, which is one of the reasons they get such crappy fuel mileage on E85, they are gasoline engines with a halfassed E85 tune to get the tax breaks. The manufactures have absolutely no reason to optimize the engine for E85 because they get the same CAFE rule breaks regardless of the fuel mileage. Home tuners like myself easily get over 90% of the gasoline fuel mileage on E85 conversions, but Detroit simply slaps a ball park tune in the engine management system that adjusts the fuel according the the fuel mixture in the tank.

That is where the difference is between the flex fuel vehicles and the standard vehicles. The FFV's have either a sensor or an computer code in the engine management software that figures out the fuel mixture of ethanol and gasoline based on how much fuel trim the computer needs to use to get to a stoichiometric fuel mixture at light throttle cruise conditions.


Larry

[dw230]

OK

[racergeo]

 Well, with NASCAR making 900 plus HP and NHRA pro stockers making 1440 HP and on readily and easily verified leaded fuel, I say living in the past with the those old antiquated carbs ain't half bad. In SCTA your not cheating till you get a record and try and get past DW in tech. Why not run E85 and see what your results are. If you get up to running near the record then this may be a relevant topic. Other wise why make a rule change for just a few?

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

Well, with NASCAR making 900 plus HP and NHRA pro stockers making 1440 HP and on readily and easily verified leaded fuel, I say living in the past with the those old antiquated carbs ain't half bad. In SCTA your not cheating till you get a record and try and get past DW in tech. Why not run E85 and see what your results are. If you get up to running near the record then this may be a relevant topic. Other wise why make a rule change for just a few?

I think were i have been getting lost here is trying to figure out what the production class is.  What it is suppose to represent.  but i think the statement is correct,  the production category cars have as much in common with production cars as Nascar vehicles have with production cars.   I guess the production class  is what it is,  basically an areodynamically stock vehicle that is limited to a version of the engine that originally came in the vehicle.   Other than that there does not seem to be a general principle defining the class. 

I guess i will have to just change classes and run a sports car or sedan in a fuel class.

[Dean Los Angeles]

making 2 assumptions, First that E85 has more energy than the fuels currently supplied by ERC.

That is not an assumption, that is physics. Do your homework before making wild statements.

Gasoline as a fuel is the level playing field for the class. The reason for having an event gas is to make sure there is a level playing field. Make your horsepower with the same energy that everyone else is using.

NASCAR uses carburetors when no one makes cars with carburetors. Racing doesn't have to reflect the real world. This isn't about the fuel used, but a LEVEL PLAYING FIELD.

If you have interest in running something else explore the wonderful world of fuel.

It is the most popular performance fuel for supercharged/turbocharged cars, even having been featured in Hotrod magazine.

That may be the case for street rods. If you want power in the fuel class nitromethane is the answer. If you running against a record set with nitromethane and are trying to beat it with E85 you already have a serious disadvantage.

Ethanol provides only 66% as much energy as standard gasoline

That is only if you compare the heat release per unit weight. If you consider the stoichiometric ratio you run twice as much fuel and your total energy is 22% higher than gasoline.