Anybody interisted in running E85?

[saltsho1]

  Just to answer the threads question, NO I'm not interested in running E85.  I do run Production class,  if I wanted to run fuel it doesn't take that much to change the car to Altered fuel class.

There are not enough people running in the Pro class to make the Green people happy with racers.

Ernie

[donpearsall]

I WISH I could get E85 locally. It is far from being universally available. I have a Flex Fuel Chevy Suburban and there are no stations that sell it withn 100 miles of me. The military bases near me have it, but I can't buy from them.  When I have encountered it, it is way cheaper than regular gas.
Don

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

Have you tried http://www.e85locator.net/State%20Pages/WashingtonE85stationlocations.html ?

E85 is cheaper, but it has less energy per gallon so you burn more. in the end you end up with a similar cost per mile.   

I guess they don't grow much corn in Washington

[Stan Back]

We have an '07 Tahoe.  I ordered it without Flex Fuel -- at no added cost -- because the gas only engine was rated 1 MPG higher highway than the Flex Fuel gas rating.  Not much difference, but a difference.  And maybe less complicated parts to go wrong.  So years later, how would one tell if a vehicle was produced with or without Flex Fuel?

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

We have an '07 Tahoe.  I ordered it without Flex Fuel -- at no added cost -- because the gas only engine was rated 1 MPG higher highway than the Flex Fuel gas rating.  Not much difference, but a difference.  And maybe less complicated parts to go wrong.  So years later, how would one tell if a vehicle was produced with or without Flex Fuel?

The rule book says
"5.E  Production Category
This Category is intended to represent typical transportation vehicles which may be purchased from any automobile dealer"

your vehicle has to "represent" the Vehicle produced.  I am sure may vehicles currently running in the production class did not come with the same engine that is currently in tie car or even an engine with the same number of cylinders.

If you read on it talks about at least 500 units being produced etc.   The thing i find al little amusing id that you are not allowed to use SCCA or Nascar sheet metal, but you can use a Nascar Engine or cylinder heads. 

The way i look at this is that the SCTA is not defining the details of what a production car is, what it includes or what capabilities it does or does not have.  If they made 500 of them and you can buy them from any dealer, you are good to go.  Unless you want to represent a Flex Fuel car by actually running E85.

Is Bonneville racing stuck in the past?   Carburetors and leaded fuel seem to be dominant.  Things that have not existed on production cars for 20 years or more.  The 1980's seemed to be the low point for production automotive performance.  Emissions systems and unleaded gas crippled the power output of the engines of the time.  some V8 engines were rated at only 160hp or less.  As a racer it made sense to steer clear of inferior fuels and TBI systems that were hard to modify and not designed for performance.   But 25 years later Detroit has figured it out, we now have engines like the New ford 5.0 that will produce 1.5 HP/CI right from the factory and on pump gas. The new ford V6 is 305 Hp, and is available in the F150.  How many years has it been since you have seen a Full size (US )  pickup with a 6 cylinder?

Forget about E85, What happens when a few smart guys start running a cars with Direct injection? What if it changes the game? Maybe it should be outlawed immediately!  It would make all of the old record obsolete.  Maybe we should put an asterisk next to records set with direct injection.  Just because it works really good, is available on production cars, gives you more performance and less emissions doesn't mean it is what's appropriate for land speed racing.


We hold ourselves to a different standard.

[desotoman]

Peter,

You bring up some good points. Since this is an all volunteer organization, and only a handful of people actually contribute, I say we do away with the production class. It is just not worth the hassle.

Tom G. 

[maguromic]

Just for the record, direct injection has been around a long time.  It was standard on the production Mercedes 300SL of the '50s and some other cars also used them before that.  Its been used and still used at Bonneville on some cars and you don't need electronics to do it. Its really not that tricky to build one of those systems.  Tony

[dw230]

"I am sure may vehicles currently running in the production class did not come with the same engine that is currently in tie car or even an engine with the same number of cylinders."

Do you have any examples to support this statement?

DW

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

I think to roots of the sport go to people taking their Hot Rods up to the dry lakes on the weekends to see how fast they could go.  I was not around at the time, but my guess is that many of the actually drove their cars to the event.  They also drove their cars on the street, bought gas at local gas stations.   The sport has evolved and moved away from racing your street rod.  Cars are all trailered in, The gas you use is not something you can purchase at you local gas station.  

The sport should evolve, continue to change with the times. My concern is that engine technology is changing at a rapid pace. Car companies are forced to spend tens of million of dollars to make engines more efficient to meet CAFE Standards. At some point the technology will filter down to the racers, and records will fall.   It used to be the racers came up with the technology and then it was incorporated into production cars, now the reverse seems to be true.

[jb2]

I do think it's pretty simple.  The SCTA has a definition of what constitutes gasoline, and an absolute method of testing it.

Everything else is fuel, or diesel.

I think MM stated it pretty accurately with this statement.  That is what you are asking to change.  

It was also stated that the rules are defining the body class and not the engine (although there are rules defining a production engine).  If flex fuel was an option then it was produced with it. If you have not seen high tech engines in production you have not been looking too closely.

[dw230]

A quick check of any of the dozens of books and magazine articles written about the early years of dry lakes racing will reveal that many of the pioneers of the sport actually converted to alcohol at the lakebed. This was done with a second tank, a by-pass valve and carb changes.

Yes, a racer will look to the best available fuel for his combination. As you stated E85 does not have the same energy as racing gas. Which would the dedicated racer choose? Do we need a poll?

DW

[Stan Back]

Not unless we got a dancer.

[Worlds Fastest Comanche]

"I am sure may vehicles currently running in the production class did not come with the same engine that is currently in tie car or even an engine with the same number of cylinders."

Do you have any examples to support this statement?

DW

The truck that current has the record in my class D/PMP, #9602  is a Chevy S10,  It came from the factory with a 4.3L v6.   Currently it has a GM performance version of the block bored to 4.125"  and a displacement of 5.0L  It also had Brodix heads.   A far cry from the stock 4.3   You are allowed to use aftermarket blocks and heads in the production class so it seems to fit the rule book.   another example is anybody running AA engine in production. I am not aware of any production vehicle produced with a engine of 501 ci or larger.  What i meant by the statement was that somebody could purchase a 4 or 6 cylinder car and replace that engine with a V8 (for example)  So long as the v8 was an available engine in that model car and at least 500 were produced, i don't think it would be a violation of the rules. generally if you are looking for a body to build a race car the ones with the smaller engines are cheaper than the SS model. 

[Stan Back]

In SCTA, Production is more of a body class than an engine class -- at least when it comes to modifications.

And relating "Production" engines to production engines is foolhearty.  Like believing NASCAR has someting to do with stock cars.

 -- Oh, I said that already.
Stan

[jb2]

"I am sure may vehicles currently running in the production class did not come with the same engine that is currently in tie car or even an engine with the same number of cylinders."

Do you have any examples to support this statement?

DW

The truck that current has the record in my class D/PMP, #9602  is a Chevy S10,  It came from the factory with a 4.3L v6.   Currently it has a GM performance version of the block bored to 4.125"  and a displacement of 5.0L  It also had Brodix heads.   A far cry from the stock 4.3   You are allowed to use aftermarket blocks and heads in the production class so it seems to fit the rule book.   another example is anybody running AA engine in production. I am not aware of any production vehicle produced with a engine of 501 ci or larger.

Same block, configuration and cylinders.  See Stans comment (I think made 3 times now but most pertinent to discussion).