new 2011 rule changes

[jl222]

 
  It's going to be funny when some of these board members and committee members realize they
 have been ''hoisted by their own petard''


                JL222

[Cajun Kid]

I just checked,,, the opening between my seats lateral head restraint (side to side) is 4.09 inches wider than my helmet.

So all I have to do is add a sliver of padding to be a 2" per side max movement.

And that is my concern, Charles. What will happen if your helmet wacks that steel structure at 30 or 40 Gs without any padding or just "a sliver" of padding? I am not clear on this rule. I want 2" or 3" of good padding plus free space. So how wide is my lateral structure?  (2" of padding + 2" free space) x 2  + helmet width? Is that correct?

I thought I was clear, maybe not,,, I have 4.09"  total or  2.045" per side clearance between my helmet and my seats lateral head supports.  This is "from the helmet to the padding"  The Padding is what NASCAR uses and is "BONDED" to the structure of the lateral supports.  No extra user installed padding or foam or anything.

Charles

[SPARKY]

Charles, is it a 2010 Snell spec?  They are suppose to be larger

[LittleLiner]

Concerning the new radiator rule for Gas Coupes . . .

First I would like to thank DW and SCTA for making the rule changes public in advance of the release of the 2011 rule book.  I fully appreciate the process and time to get the printed version of the rule book prepared, checked, printed and released for sale.  Waiting until then to see the changes would make preparation for the 2011 season more difficult for all competitors.

I would also like to thank who ever came up with the new wording for the Gas Coupe Radiator requirement. 
New rule wording - ‘A replacement radiator of the same height and width and mounted in the original location as OEM shall be used.  Blocking of air flow through the radiator in front or behind is not allowed.’

I have no complaint with the new rule.  Things change, stuff happens, life goes on, etc. . . .but I want to explain how this seemingly little change in words can impact existing cars and those already under construction.

As I have been fabricating my gas coupe I had wondered about the radiator requirements.  The gas coupe I am putting together uses a Geo Metro body and a Honda Motorcycle engine driving the front wheels to run as a J/GC.  The Geo OEM radiator mounts in the left front of the engine compartment.  Under the previous rules it said . . . “A conventional automotive radiator shall be used in the stock location e.g. in front of the engine, behind the grille.”  I had wondered exactly what an "automotive radiator" was and how you were supposed to determine if it was “conventional.”  Would any radiator do if it had fins and tanks?  Could a Motorcycle radiator be used?  (is that ‘automotive’ or not?) What about a Radiator from an ATV or Snowmobile?  Anyway, the new words don't include any reference to Automotive or Conventional. 

I had also wondered . . . Could it be bigger or smaller than stock?  - Could it be thicker than stock?  The new wording certainly answers those questions although the jury is still out on ‘thicker’. . . . 

I assumed that as long as it had a top and bottom tank and a set of fins it was a “Conventional Automotive Radiator.”  And I also assumed that the size wasn’t an issue.  So I was planning to run an ATV radiator behind the grille opening and to the left of the engine like the general location of the stock OEM Geo radiator.  (same ‘original location’ as described in the old rules but not the exact same ‘OEM location’ as described in the new rules. ) It filled up the “hole” behind the grill next to the engine.

So, to get to the specific point . . with my car/engine combination I cannot meet this new requirement for radiator size and placement.  . . The engine swap and the requirement to retain front wheel drive required that I mount the engine in a position where it just happens to take up some of the space best described as the spot where the “ radiator of the same height and width and mounted in the original location as OEM” would go.

Looks like I am switching to ALTERED.    It's time to cover the headlight openings, block the grill opening, scrap the ATV radiator and use a water tank for cooling.  Anybody want to buy a pair of Geo Metro LSI headlights?

[JR529]

The primary aerodynamic difference between a Gas Coupe and an Altered Coupe is the penalty a Gas Coupe pays for having air flowing through the radiator. There are others but this is the big one. Minimizing this penalty by definition puts you in Altered Coupe.

Here is an (incomplete) list of things that you can do to try to minimize the aero penalty of air going through your radiator:
Put a plate over the front of it
Put a plate over the back of it
Put a tank in front of it
Put a duct in front of it, redirecting the air
Mount it at an angle
Make it smaller with the resulting hole blocked off
Tape over the grill
Fill the fin area with a foreign substance
etc.......
all of the above (and more) will bump you to Altered or get you thrown out of impound if you arrive as a Gas Coupe.

We don't care if you make your radiator taller, wider or thicker, just not smaller. We don't care if you move it from the passenger side to the drivers side or vice-versa so long as you are paying the full penalty of the aero drag caused by the radiator airflow into the engine bay that is fundamental to a Gas Coupe. If you are not then you should be (by definition) in Altered Coupe.

[saltfever]

If that is the case then:
A replacement radiator of the same height and width area (or larger) and mounted in the original location as OEM shall be used.  Blocking of air flow thru the radiator in front or behind is not allowed.

Sounds simple to me and appears to be the original intent according to many commnets. However, another comment indicated the intent was to restrict the change in shape. Eg, instead of a square radiator and aero advantage may be gained by going to a retangular shape, both with the same area. I don't know how but a shorter height (due to the wide retangle shape) might be what the rule is trying to prevent. If that is the case then "same height and width" (or larger) would work but have the least negative impact on people.

[RichFox]

We don't care if you make your radiator taller, wider or thicker, just not smaller. We don't care if you move it from the passenger side to the drivers side or vice-versa so long as you are paying the full penalty of the aero drag caused by the radiator airflow into the engine bay that is fundamental to a Gas Coupe. If you are not then you should be (by definition) in Altered Coupe............................................If this is true then that's what the new rule should say. Not "Same height and width". That's not rocket science. But a good example of how to write a rule that means one thing and says another. It should be corrected before going to the printers.

[LittleLiner]

Well then . . if the rules allow . . I can install a radiator that has the same area as the OEM radiator (narrower but taller) and I can install ducting that would direct the air coming in through the original, stock opening in the front of the car (aka grille opening) and have all that air go through the radiator of the same area as the original.  There is no aero advantage over the original radiator.  Allthe air coming in the original grille will be passing thought the same number of square inches of radiator.

But - the new rules don't say 'same surface area.'   They say the same 'height and width'.
The problem is that my engine (which sits next to the radiator opening) is covering some of the original width of the original radiator location.  I have plenty of room below the original radiator bottom and a few inches above the original radiator top that I can fill up with a 'replacement radiator' with the same (or larger maybe) area.


With my front wheel drive setup I can't set the engine back to gain space for the OEM radiator height and width and location. 

The Altered Class will be more fun anyway.   Already looking into running Fuel.   Anyone know someone producing one-piece tilt fiberglass front ends for a Geo Metro?

[Bob Drury]

  I think Mattel makes a vacu-form for large toys.  That ought to fit............

[JR529]

It was assumed (!) to be obvious that larger radiators were allowed as essentially none of the current cars use a stock or stock replacement sized radiator. As was mentioned earlier, how do you run a 800 HP motor in a car that originally had an 80 HP motor in it without replacing the radiator? This rule was expanded to address the problem of people trying to get around the radiator airflow "penalty" of the gas coupe class by somehow restricting/impeding the airflow through the engine bay.

I guess that old saying about ASSumptions was right...

Well then . . if the rules allow . . I can install a radiator ...... I can install ducting that would direct the air coming in through the original, stock opening in the front of the car ... that air go through the radiator of the same area as the original.  There is no aero advantage over the original radiator.  All the air coming in the original grille will be passing thought the same number of square inches of radiator.

Before you get to far ahead with that send a pic of what you want to do to the tech chair for Coupe & Sedan. In principle what you describe sounds OK but the devil is in the detals so pictures would be a good idea.

[SPARKY]

more than once, much to my dismay, I have cooled over 900 with a 18x22 radiator in 11 gallons of water and no air when I forgot to turn on the water circulation pump. 

[saltfever]

. . .  a good example of how to write a rule that means one thing and says another. It should be corrected before going to the printers.

Right on, Rich. The rule book goes to many countries in the world. Many of us don't have the privilege of rubbing elbows with someone at a club meeting or a board meeting. We have absolutely no way of ferreting out intent. All we can do is interpret the written word. I have seen records taken away . . . not because they were intentional cheaters but because they were cheated by the rule book. A naive assumption about ambiguous text is foolish and at your peril.

[RichFox]

It was assumed (!) to be obvious that larger radiators were allowed as essentially none of the current cars use a stock or stock replacement sized radiator. As was mentioned earlier, how do you run a 800 HP motor in a car that originally had an 80 HP motor in it without replacing the radiator? This rule was expanded to address the problem of people trying to get around the radiator airflow "penalty" of the gas coupe class by somehow restricting/impeding the airflow through the engine bay.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''It is assumed to be obvious that larger radiators were allowed when the rule clearly states same height and width. Just who would assume that? That makes as much sense as assuming you meant white was OK when you required black. I just don't understand the thought processes that would assume "Same height and width" means any size as long as it's bigger.............................I don't know why my part is min the quote. I can't seem to get it out.

[Stan Back]

"All this bickering back and forth and all this rule change banter has me wondering a few things . . .

1. Am I even Legal to run a SCTA event ?"

Charles -- I'm sure Joe Timney can give your car the once-over -- after all, doesn't the ECTA use basically the same rules as the SCTA?


"2. Should I even plan on spending a ton of cash to get me, the crew and the car to the salt?"

How big a crew do you need.  More than one or two helpers on a car like yours can be excessive.  One or two can remember to do the things needed.  And two or three guys can travel at the same expense as one when towing.  Generous me even allows them to fill up the tank once in a while, since they're getting to go themselves.  I pay the entry, they get the free passes.  I even give them the ugly T-Shirts.  And two or three can usually stay in the same room at no extra cost.


"3. Do I want to be "bashed" on how my car is built ?"
Don't know why you'd feel that way, especially if you get it okey-doaked ahead of time.  Few cars cannot be fixed on site with minor problems and/or given speed limits if they can't be fixed.  Hardly anyone is sent away.  Even if you can't run, it's still the real thing.  Come on out and play in the bigs this year.

Stan Back

[Cajun Kid]

Charles, is it a 2010 Snell spec?  They are suppose to be larger

Sparky, nope that was my Bell SA2005  I used to measure,,, I think you are correct, the SAH2010 that I have picked out is a larger shell, so that solves my .0045 " per side problem.

Charles