new 2011 rule changes

[thundersalt]

What if your radiator is stock size by the sq. inch but height and width are not stock and still fits the stock hole in a stock radiator support?

[Joe Timney]

Polyester belts still stretch and absorb some of the impact, it's just that they don't stretch excessively like nylon.

Pete

They stretch one half as much as nylon.
joe

[desotoman]

The answer to this question has been around for decades........
It's called a water tank.   Also note the rule only gives outside dimensions, not thickness.

I was thinking the same thing. Why not add add another row of tubes. Back in 1968 I had a 64 Falcon, and built a 13-1 compression, 260 Ford motor for the street. Stock Radiator would only last 5 minutes in the summer, took it to a Radiator shop and had them make a 4 core radiator for it. Worked great in 115 degree weather.

Tom G.

[saltfever]

Your Falcon was a 6 cylinder and longer than a V-8. There was plenty of room to make the radiator thicker when you stuck in a shorter V-8. I had one and did exactly that.  Use the popular Monza as an example. The engine compartment is so short you can barley squeeze in a stock thickness radiator. The rules prevent you from cutting stock sheet metal to fit a thicker radiator. But even if you could add a thicker radiator it restricts air flow which defeats the purpose of this rule!

Mike, I agree your method will work and always appreciate your experience and insight. But now you have added another hazard to the cockpit. Not only is there hot oil from the dry sump but now hot water plumbing is there to boil the driver if there is a failure during an accident. There are plenty of gas coupes running without any inside plumbing. This just adds unnecessary complexity and more safety issues.

I respect the rule making process. I appreciate all the hard work (and more importantly the time) in making any rule or rule change. I am interpreting the English language. If something else was meant then the text needs to be changed to reflect that intent.

[jl222]

The simple answer is they all past but 1. Minor refinements to a couple. Went fairly smooth compared to some board meetings in the past. I didn't see anyone pull a knife or anything.  

I think that was due to the efforts of all the committee and board members doing their homework, trying to make concise rules and being prepaired.
Good job guys.  

  When ONE THATS ONE rule committee or board member can tell us how far a helmet side support is from the front roll bar on a full roll cage without measuring NOW I would agree with you about homework.
  But if they considered the Thompson video as any deciding factor THEY are completly wrong do to the FACT that the seat belts were mounted wrong and not tight which allowed the belts to stretch to much and to for him to move up down and forward.
  We have a full funny car type cage in the 222 Camaro and installed the SCTA required $500 dollar [tire shake] padding  as instructed to the edge of roll cage as the shape of padding is designed, the bottom front edge of helmet is 1 1/2'' in front of funny car cage. Our shoulders and back are rubbing the roll bars when we exit now adding 1 1/2'' more is putting us in danger.

  JL222

  Homework my Acura

[Dynoroom]

Let me try this.
 Does anyone still use the stock gas tank in their Monza, Firebird, Mustang, etc. race car? I sure don't, but it makes a great water tank or place to put one that's not in the drivers compartment.  

One nice thing about this forum is we can ALL learn from other peoples experience. Don't be afraid to ask or expound on your ideas folks. It can and does help more folks than you might think. It's the off season, lets get some more questions out here, I know you want to ask.....  

[saltfever]

As racers we seem to whine sometimes. But then as racers we think of a way to get around problems all the time. weather it's making more power from a small engine or making a stock body just a bit more aero.

The answer to this question has been around for decades........
It's called a water tank.  Also note the rule only gives outside demensions, not thickness.

Oh, and as far as gas coupes go, I can point out many who use a stock size radiator..... some running over 1400 hp. Go figure..... 

Mike, I am sorry you think I’m whining. I don’t want hot water in the cockpit! This creates an unnecessary safety issue.

This rule change is not an issue for bigger cars. Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs etc all have very wide stock radiators regardless of core thickness. As you well know and mentioned 1,400 hp can be handled with core thickness and other tricks. The issue is for smaller cars. Monza, Vega, Honda, Toyota, ect. They all use go-cart sized radiators. The rule is clear . . . OEM dimensions means OEM area. All you can do is add thickness and in these small cars you can’t do that when stuffing in a bigger engine. You can’t do an engine set-back and you can’t cut sheet metal to be a legal gas coupe.

The rule is well intended but it creates very broad unintended implications.

[Buickguy3]

  Remember that while we work to interpret the "intent" of the rule, we have to be very careful to not violate the "spirit" of the rule , as we found out this year.
Doug

[saltfever]

Who or what was the exact infraction?  Maybe, if we had some insider information, we could figure out how to build our legal cars.

[saltfever]

Let me try this.
 Does anyone still use the stock gas tank in their Monza, Firebird, Mustang, etc. race car? I sure don't, but it makes a great water tank or place to put one that's not in the drivers compartment.  

A larger than stock radiator works well and it doesn't force you to put boiling water in the cockpit. (or in your case, pressurized, super heated steam). Why create another safety issue if a current set-up works? This rule forces you to go to a smaller tank and therefore less-safe methods.

[Dynoroom]

The simple answer is they all past but 1. Minor refinements to a couple. Went fairly smooth compared to some board meetings in the past. I didn't see anyone pull a knife or anything.  

I think that was due to the efforts of all the committee and board members doing their homework, trying to make concise rules and being prepaired.
Good job guys.  

  When ONE THATS ONE rule committee or board member can tell us how far a helmet side support is from the front roll bar on a full roll cage without measuring NOW I would agree with you about homework.
  But if they considered the Thompson video as any deciding factor THEY are completly wrong do to the FACT that the seat belts were mounted wrong and not tight which allowed the belts to stretch to much and to for him to move up down and forward.
  We have a full funny car type cage in the 222 Camaro and installed the SCTA required $500 dollar [tire shake] padding  as instructed to the edge of roll cage as the shape of padding is designed, the bottom front edge of helmet is 1 1/2'' in front of funny car cage. Our shoulders and back are rubbing the roll bars when we exit now adding 1 1/2 more is putting us in danger.

  JL222

  Homework my Acura

John, all you do is bitch about the process. Tim Rochlitzer & Fred Daninfeltzer make it to most board meetings. They are from your former stomping grounds. I'm sure you get filled in on whats going on, If not then that's your fault. It's not perfect but better than in the past when we got the rule changes in May! You have lots to contribute and I do understand your concerns but that doesn't mean the SCTA is doing it just to spite you. Plenty of people are at the rules committee meetings and talk about the good and bad of everything. It takes day's of haggling to find the words that seem to work best but sometimes a rule just is that.... a rule.
What I meant about doing their homework was that it got finished earlier this year than ever, and not because it was just pushed through committee.

Just a note: You are not required to have the padding that you use (although it's better than roll bar padding) and getting out of each car has it pluses and minuses. It's up to the builder IMO.

[RichFox]

My friend Gary Williams ran a Monza with a 454 at El Mirage and Bonneville for a while. He used the stock radiator and a water tank mounted where the gas tank had been. His fuel came from in front of the stock radiator. His water circulated in the radiator until a thermostat opened and then allowed the water from the tank to be pumped into the block and mix with the already hot water. Seemed to work quite well. His fuel tank effectively blocked any air through the radiator. Don't know what the ruling would be on that now. I will say that my street driven Studebaker Lark needed a much larger radiator for the 383 than the 170 inch six used. The natural answer was and always has been, Put a bigger radiator in it. So now my real street driven normal everyday car is illegal. I don't think that sounds right.

[saltfever]

My friend Gary Williams ran a Monza with a 454 at El Mirage and Bonneville for a while. edit . . . His fuel tank effectively blocked any air through the radiator. Don't know what the ruling would be on that now.

I met Gary and saw the car at Elmo a few year ago. A very nice and sharing guy. His fuel tank completely blocked air flow and a smart idea that is now illegal.

New rule: Blocking of air flow thru the radiator in front or behind is not allowed.

[desotoman]

Your Falcon was a 6 cylinder and longer than a V-8. There was plenty of room to make the radiator thicker when you stuck in a shorter V-8. I had one and did exactly that.  Use the popular Monza as an example. The engine compartment is so short you can barley squeeze in a stock thickness radiator. The rules prevent you from cutting stock sheet metal to fit a thicker radiator. But even if you could add a thicker radiator it restricts air flow which defeats the purpose of this rule!

Saltfever,

I need to correct you on a couple of things you said in the above post which you assumed.  First my car never had a six cylinder in it. It came from the Ford Factory with a 260 V8 in 1964. They first put a 260 V8 in the Falcon series in the rounded 1963 Sprint model. My new 4 core radiator was a complete bolt in, no sheet metal was ever changed. I used a Flex lite Fan (to gain a little HP) on a stock water pump, and had zero clearance problems. It was very simple and worked very efficiently. I used to fill up with Custom Supreme at Chevron (center pump) for 45 cents a gallon. LOL.

I cannot comment on a monza since I have never owned one.

Tom G.

[maguromic]

New rule: Blocking of air flow thru the radiator in front or behind is not allowed.

I don’t want to give any secrets away, but you don’t need to put anything to block the air from going through the radiator.   As I said earlier this can be accomplished with a tighter fin count.  The standard fin count on a racing radiator is 18 per inch, but there are several companies that make them with tighter fin counts.  One company out of Australia (they also have a shop in NC) have been playing around with different shapes on fins for air control in front of the car.  You guys surely don’t think the fast cars at Daytona or Talladega use a standard racing radiator.  If I had a gas coupe I would do what Dynoroom suggested, run a water tank in the stock gas tank location and then maximize the effects of the radiator on the aero, and I know of at least one special Australian/US radiator built for a street roadster yet to run.  Tony