Author Topic: Jack Dolan on rules  (Read 31027 times)

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Offline narider

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2008, 11:43:29 PM »
Bob, I'd be interested to hear the answer to this as well if Kent knows it? Here is one of my answers
when asked about the steering stop rule, it's application and it's enforcement when it came out for us
(as far as ECTA carrying it over from SCTA that is).

Quote
It's a 30 degree overall(15 degree in each direction) rule that I believe
SCTA's reason for is to keep down the amount of "violent" tank slap should
it happen). I did a bunch of scenario testing inside and outside here at the
shop(and was even 100% willing to build a jig for the ECTA to pull each bike
up on to be able to test the 15 degree in each direction turning maximum if
the rule stood, so we could have the ability to check "easily"). I believe
(and the reason I fought for removal), that unlike the SCTA, we don't have
enough room to turn around in many places we end up, and we(unlike the SCTA)
allow our entrants to ride their race bikes in the pits which has a large
ability of creating some slow speed manueverability issues and possible
injuries "because of" the rule. Not to mention the fact that there's many
bikes that would not be running unless they create new stops(and we've only
ever had one bike down from high speed wobble, and that was not a tank
slapper let alone a violent one). Although there are some that run at Maxton
I sure don't think we should force people to do this(again, it won't disallow
SCTA or crrent ECTA members either one from running). I think there's enough
runs at Maxton to prove that good steering dampers, tires and non slippery
surfaces(like concrete) do wonders for stability.
Todd


Kent,
I appreciatte when people that are in the meetings and behind the scenes are willing to say so in the
open forums liek this and admit they had a hand in something that didn't go to well as quickly as they
are about something that did go well, that shows involvement without expectation of recognition. Thank you for being one of those people.
 
But don't trust me(instead look back at the ECTA's history this decade as it's all over the internet and
more documented in writing then any other venue of this kind), when I say Deb may bring a problem to
light(and has done so with many in the last 8 years), but never without an offered solution and the
willingness to help in it's application and the followthrough to back it up(this is why she has not put as
much time in ON THE TRACK as she has FOR THE TRACK).

We both study the history of what we do before we actually do it(be it the reasoning for rules that
we've gone back decades on to the reasoning of the people that have left these venues or parts of them due to some of those rules), with the handful or two that have been so kind as to share with us
so honestly in our short time around here. But it doesn't mean we won't speak our minds before we find
everything out(we're both very open speakers like us or not). We're young(I'm younger then her but I
wouldn't tell her that as it makes her feel bad), so we are(and have been for some time) trying to learn
from the ones we look up to and that have made successful gains forward FOR, as well as in this sport.

So while I agree with the statement you make about someone doing something or people like you will
consider them part of of the problem, I've also learned that there are people that are doing stuff that
are part of the problem as well(or even more so at times). Simply doing something doesn't make
someone helpful(IE: a non-skilled or non-caring person is best to leave the tools on the bench and step
away from the lift). Thanks for what you do... if it truly makes a difference(or has the ability to anyway)!

Btw, I'd prefer Deb leave BOTH hands free to allow me to speak(and think) more clearly, as the sac she holds would likely be mine!
Todd

Offline hawkwind

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2008, 12:30:17 AM »
IMHO  each vehicle should have a functioning steering dampner and a MINIMUM TRAIL rule before  looking at limiting steering movement  :wink:

Rules what rules  we have   SCTA - ECTA- FIM - DLRA - AMA and Texas mile and each of those has a rule making protocol and practice and getting concensus between them all is  about as remote as us (DLRA) having a race meet next month , though each should have a commonality in safety rules ie  all the same , but even that may well prove remote  :-(,hopefully one day
Gary
slower than most

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2008, 01:45:29 AM »
Stainless
Im not really sure where it came from.... I kinda have an idea... Ok i'm not gonna throw em under the bus.....anyhow that’s water under the bridge.... the next thing is how are we gonna check and enforce the rule change and how it affects the racers this year... it might not be a big deal.... if it turns out to be a nightmare I might just have to put in a change request for 09.... no guarantees but we'll see what happens...

Todd
It would be pretty hard to actually bench test a slow tank slapper (rated at 60 cycles per second) and if ya were able to test it would you be able to determine how much a severe oscillation would turn the front wheel out of a forward trajectory... this is gonna be a tough one to call, I guess were gonna have to wait and see what happens...
Thanks for the thanks but im not the one who deserves any credit...im just a guy that answered some emails, put in a few change requests, and showed up to a couple of meetings to shoot his mouth off... I had about a 60% success but im no different than you, you might have even done better than me.... its not that hard to do people.!... All ya gotta do is step up to the counter and say "cheese burger and fries please"...ok maybe not that easy but your never gonna make it better for yourself until ya ask.
Now I will say the people who do deserve all the credit is Rus Odaily and Tom Evans... these guys have busted there asses for the last 3 or 4 years and Tom even longer...I think they have made quite a few good changes and a couple funky ones too but they deserve the credit.... also, some of you don’t know it but Dan Warner is the guy behind the seines that brings everything together... a big thumbs up and a cold one to DW  :-D

Ok with that said I will add one last rant.... we live in a new generation where people communicate publicly on open Internet forums... I don’t think there will be any stopping debate about SCTA rules and it will probably happen right here... so if your gonna piss and moan about something please spend the time and energy to come up with a better solution.... step up and draft a change, then if none of ya have the sac to present it I will be happy to be the loud mouth who will, I will just ask 2 things in return...1) stop slamming the hard working people who provide the sport we enjoy and 2) help them, to make our sport better for the rest of us....
out
Kent

Offline isiahstites

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2008, 02:25:37 AM »
Interesting read! I will continue to stay back in the shadows and ask questions so I can completely understand the existing rules. A lot of the discussions on this website help, so thanks to everyone who is involved!


Scott

Offline DahMurf

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2008, 06:47:32 AM »
Good stuff people, keep it coming...

Kent,
 With all this said, I am one of the people that needs to understand the "perceived need" for an updated/new rule to fully understand it and decide if I agree or disagree before deciding if I want to go forward with a change proposal. So, with that in mind, would you (or someone else) try to elaborate in as generic a way as possible about this 15 degree steering stop rule? Something generic like... there was a bike that ran and this happened.. blah blah blah. For the most part I don't need to know who did what to cause a rule change in order to understand it. Of course with the exception of Jon Minono as his personal account was the most valuable & I thank him for giving it to us all!

Gary,
 I agree that it will be difficult to get all the venues in line but now that the ECTA is for the most part adopting the SCTA rules, I figure it's best to go to the source to pursue changes to the rules. That and the fact that one day we'll get out from under some of these bills & have the ability to start racing with the SCTA on a regular basis. I'd like to see some things tweaked for the good of us all not to mention me personally before we get there!

Todd,
 Apparently you're getting senile with age because EVERYONE knows you're older then me old man!  :-P Really, just look at us, isn't it obvious!  :-D

Deb
Miss you my friend :-* - #1302  Twin Jugs Racing
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Offline narider

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2008, 08:50:46 AM »
Kent, the bench testing jig was just for enforcement(one of the biggest problems we have with some of the rules here on the right coast), as there's no sense in having an un-enforcable rule(no matter how much it happens). I believe only a willing stunt rider with a bike that is proven to have repeatable full-on tank slappers(stop to stop contact) and having adjustable stops limiting that travel, set down to the 30* rule and retested multiple times... would be accurate enough to prove it works.

I don't know enough about it, other then past experiences that have put me or others down(or close to it) on the road and the fixes that I found to correct them(none of which included limiting the amount of steering movement), but since we have slow speed manueverability needs in our rules, it seemed best to not hinder our rider's ability to conform to that rule(hate to have one rule cancel another out ya know?).

If the bikes are not allowed to be ridden to and from, and this rule is felt to help on the course, then why go as far as 15* in each direction and not instead limit the steering to say 3-5 degrees as that should be plenty to stay on course with leaning the heaviest of rakes and trail both?

Not bitching and that last question is rhetorical of course(considering no one is speaking up of where the 30* rule came from in the first place). Just trying to have constructive conversation that may lead to more knowledge for later(as well as present) use.

Btw, yes I have heard(and seen end results of) many great things about(by) Dan, Russ and Tom. I've just never spoken to them much(privately or publicly) to know them or their thought patterns.

Jack seems to be pretty good at sparking "useful" conversation like this,
Todd
 

Offline panic

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2008, 09:56:22 AM »
That about closes the book on "no one wants to participate".

I have to apologize - of course, it's my own fault that I don't have unlimited leisure time to be ignored in person, unlimited money to attend these functions, and don't live in California.

But, thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Hard to tell - is this a sanctioning body, or a script from "One Life to Live"?

Offline joea

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2008, 11:08:39 AM »
additionally..........the Amo P/S rules change request was
transformed into a rule that was NOT the intent of the request.........

WITHOUT any notification from the so called "rules advisory" committee
for so called "discussion and input" from said  committee......

as were the many other rules changes that Scott mentioned....leathers,
steering, cases etc.........actually those never got consideration by the
committee........

when the proposed processes (rules advisory committee) are utilized
in such a manner ........it does not breed respect or confidence

Offline willieworld

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2008, 12:19:08 PM »
can someone who doesnt race a bike submit a motorcycle rule change -- sounds like thats happened a couple of times    just a thought  willie buchta
willie-dpombatmir-buchta

Offline DahMurf

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2008, 12:28:21 PM »
I know I may regret opening this can of worms but....
Joe or others, can you explain the Amo p/s rule?
I'm not sure I know what's being refered to.

Joe what was your intention & the unintended resulting rule?
Thanks!
Deb
Miss you my friend :-* - #1302  Twin Jugs Racing
ECTA 200MPH club@202/Texas 200MPH club@209/Loring 200MPH club@218
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bak189

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2008, 01:35:05 PM »
A question..............WHY would you ECTA people
be addopting SCTA/BNI M/C rules seeing all the problems SCTA/BNI is having with their rules and the way they are made...........................
Can't you do your own thinking??????????????
With outstanding racers and thinkers like
Scott Guthrie on your team you should be able
to put together a great set of rules with input from your M/C racers.  The excuse "we are trying
to make to easier for SCTA/BNI racers to compete at our events"...does not hold water.......
BUB has their own AMA/FIM rules and they had over 350 entrees. in 2007 with many SCTA/BNI racers who
changed their bikes as needed to the BUB rules.
DO YOUR OWN THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................

Offline narider

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2008, 02:02:27 PM »
The "ECTA people" you are speaking to, do not own the ECTA (doing a history check is good advice for EVERYONE).
What is this "water" you speak of?
Todd
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 02:05:57 PM by narider »

Offline Sumner

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2008, 02:04:13 PM »
A question..............WHY would you ECTA people
be addopting SCTA/BNI M/C rules seeing all the problems SCTA/BNI is having with their rules and the way they are made...............................

It would be nice though as a participant to know that if you complied to one set of rules you would know you would have no problem being tech-ed at whichever venue you wanted to race at.  I think that is somewhat what ECTA is trying to do and I applaud them for that and I think it does help their members that want to race at some point at either El Mirage or at B'ville.  Likewise it helps those who race in the west and might want to run in the east at some point.  There are car rules at stake here also, some of us need more than two wheels  :-).

The other thing we have to remember is these are volunteer run organizations and we are dealing with real people that write the rules, interpret the rules and live by the rules and there are going to be mistakes and frustrations and a need to be flexible and open to fixing something that doesn't work and to me as an outsider that seems to be happening. Maybe not at the pace that would make all of us happy.  I did recently join a club so that I could be a little more involved in the future there and maybe with SCTA.  $70 or so a year to be a club/SCTA member is not that big of a deal with the other expenses we incur.  Come on Deb you could even figure out a way to do that and then you wouldn't have to rely on that dead beat Kent guy  :evil:,

Sum

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2008, 02:35:42 PM »
After reading the last page or so it has become crystal clear (to me at least) why the SCTA does not have public 3rd party forum debates on it's rules.

Kent, I have a newfound respect for you.  :-P

Offline Sumner

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Re: Jack Dolan on rules
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2008, 03:35:42 PM »
After reading the last page or so it has become crystal clear (to me at least) why the SCTA does not have public 3rd party forum debates on it's rules.

Kent, I have a new found respect for you.  :-P

There is no problem with us debating any of this all we want, but the only way you are going to have some order to the whole thing is fill out the paper work, submit it and if you don't get what you want then re-submit it with hopefully more on your side the next time and try and make a better case.

The part about Kent wasn't needed as he can barely fit his head in his helmet now  :lol:, love ya Kent,

Sum
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 03:39:37 PM by Sumner »