Jack Dolan on rules

[JackD]

Well here it is 2 years later, and has it made any progress ?
Read the whole thing and even chime in.
We shall see.

Still standing, not hiding or cowering after all these years, and for the same thing.

[narider]

Not an SCTA member... just an interested bystander with thoughts of the future and the thirst for where the SCTA 's past and it's rules came from. On the outside looking in, or wanting to understand what I want inside of you could say.
Todd

Jack,
Going thru the archives here you seem to give alot of critisism on the motorcycle rules mainly (some car) and I have left myself to wounder what do you think the rules should be?

Maybe a more relative question to the accomplishment being wished for would be "How do we figure what the rules shouldn't be?".

Maybe you are the salvation for the motorcycle guys??

Is it the motorcycle guys that need the salvation, or would they be fine if the "others" are saved?

You seem to have a good grasp on what the rules are and why they are like they are.

The latter being the requirement to the prior!

That kind of person is coming hard to find these days...

Yet the days keep going by with no changes?

I am as vocal as anybody that you will ever see and speak with the courage of my convictions.

The sign of a person willing to put their integrity on the table for all to see(and it's plain to see you've laid it on a table or two in your time).

More publication of what is going on will generate some problems in the beginning, but that will soon settle down with the better job by all that exposure generates.

I have an idea how I think it should work and the best measure of that is not everybody will agree.

If everyone agreed, there'd be nothing to change or discuss... although for some that is their ideea of progress.

Learning from mistakes should be cumulative not repeated.

Mid 1970's song by Robert and Jimmy, later reproduced by Dread Zeppelin with a more appropriatte name.

come on Jack...
how can we fix the A and M chassis problem?

Are you asking for a fish while being told how to using a fishing pole? 

it's just that i hate just "throwing my hands up"

That's why you've added to this sport when you've been invlolved dad, "on the inside looking in".

the vehicle i used to set a record....was not compliant the following year to run in the same class........ALTERED.

I would be interested in you explaining why or what was changed in the rules to not make it not compliant.

Dad put it lightly there IMO and was actually left without a class to run in at all until some fo the rules were rescinded by the SCTA(which caused our right cost venue' follow the leader game at the time to re-roll the dice and spin again as well). Btw, I'd be glad to dig thru my notes and expand on that thought if you're still interested Sum(privately, publicly or both).

as has been pointed out here, there seems a fine line between some of the bike rules, common sense, and the desire to maintain a dynasty, as these are at opposite ends of the spirit of some rules and classes.....

the beginning of this sounded good, but I'm still questioning and not sure I buy into the "Dynasty"(first time I've heard that one - lol) or the more refered to "Good O'l boy" theory of why the rules are what they are. I think unfounded or inn appropriatte rules(where the rule makers are also the entrants are concerned) usually come down to individuals(be it a group of them or singular).... and normally is found to be a good person(good people) making an uninformed rule, or a  bad person(bad people) making a personal agenda rule.


Ok, you asked for a chime, and maybe it wasn't mine you wanted but oh well... there's mine from page one.
Think I'll do something productive like eat now... and read more later.

This begs for the... "thanks for having this forum here" statement though, 
Todd

[Stainless1]

Wow, for a little while I thought I had missed a lot of action... 3 pages and I was only away from the computer for 3 hours, then I see we dredged an old post that is still timely and appropriate 2 years later.  And we are still  in the same hole, 15 degree steering stops, as the newest example. 
Back to square one, where do we go from here?  How do we get a sensible program back? 
Note to scta, there are serious racers outside of SoCa, we are all serious racers, we would liked to be part of the solution, there are more BNI racers than you think.  Some are even fairly smart folks.

[ol38y]

I was wondering the same thing Stainless.

A question for the SCTA members. What would it take to have the yearly M/C meeting at Bonneville again. Seems like an ideal way to clarify and discuss, or cuss as Jack said, new rules and changes.

I get the impression here that the "powers that be" don't want the close scrutiny anymore. If that's the case, maybe that's where the changes might start. Not necessarily in personal but structure.

Just my impression from the outside lookin in.

Kent, Jack, Scott, where's the fix.

Larry

[Nortonist 592]

A lot of the fix could be in communication.  How difficult would it be for the SCTA site to have a section for proposed rules changes?  Instead of springing them on us.  In fairness the proposed changes were mentioned at club meetings and feedback sought.  When it as mentioned at our club meeting I got the feeling that it was "going through the motions". 

[JackD]

" The beatings will continue until moral improves."

It is interesting to note that SCTA is working to establish a question and answer forum on their own web site.
Can you imagine publication of communications from all levels of expertise on rules, and the ability to have it widely distributed for common knowledge ?
What can it mean ?

[DahMurf]

I haven't yet reread this whole post but after reading Kent's post I can't help but wonder WHY things can't be discussed on the Internet. The ECTA does it on many levels. The SCTA is way over on the other coast. Some of the knowledgeable people aren't. Unless they're independently wealthy they can't participate. Now that the ECTA is following the SCTA's rules we all have a dog in this fight. But the reality is that I can barely afford my ECTA membership right now so I certainly can't afford the SCTA one. Are they really going to listen to me submitting a rule change when I'm not a member of SCTA, BNI, a club or anything else? At least if we could participate on the Internet we could maybe get to a good end conclusion. Unfortunately, now it does matter to me personally how they do it out there.



Deb

[Glen]

On the SCTA web site www.scta-bni.org they have posted that forms to request rule or other changes is now on line. It's a good place to start and will be a matter of record for the board and rules committee to have it in front of them at the end of the season and give them additional input from the racer.

The once a year motorcycle rules committee never drew a lot of racers. Seems a lot forgot about it or they were busy working on the bike and even a few said hell, they wont listen anyway.

The main thing is they have a form for your use, E-mail and other requests on non standard paper may not get to the committee. USE THE FORM

[1212FBGS]

wow... i got a bunch of PM's over that one... ill try to get ya'all an answer in the next couple of days... Deb you people at the CSTA dont HAVE to follow our ruled word for word, i dont think ya follow our all bull leather rule do ya..?... Deb if you want something changed, put it on the proper SCTA form and i will take credit..er... i mean submit it for ya

Glen is right... In the last 50 years the SCTA has established procedures for making all kinds of changes from rules to how many courses we will run... these change procedures are avalible to anyone...For the most part the changes come from the board or people who are actually involved..!.....oh,oh,oh, there it is folks... change comes from people who are actually involved.....

love ya
Kent

[panic]

I have a suggestion, and a question:

If you're really going to examine these things, the first thing to do is to find, analyze, and modify inconsistencies between car classes, bike vs. car, non-sequiturs, ambiguous descriptions, rules that are not enforced, rules for which the purpose is now obsolete. Why this first? Because it allows more people to participate, since they need not suggest the change - only the problem. Put it on the table first, yes? Once you have a list, you can begin with the items that are (duh) safety-related, then the ones most frequently mentioned as time and budget permit.

Who asked that the "2 class down" rule for vintage flathead vs. OHV bike motors be trashed in favor of the current "subtract 1/3" rule, and what reason was given?

[DahMurf]

Deb you people at the CSTA dont HAVE to follow our ruled word for word, i dont think ya follow our all bull leather rule do ya..?... Deb if you want something changed, put it on the proper SCTA form and i will take credit..er... i mean submit it for ya

Thanks Kent, I appreciate the offer, will you don the fire retardant suit & take the hit for me too? 

And no, the ECTA isn't following word for word 100% to the letter of the SCTA rules at this time but the more in alignment we can be the better.
For the most part our differences involve:
1) Safety items specific to Maxton
2) Classification items to not exclude our current ECTA racers while allowing the SCTA racers to easily race with us

So, as much as I don't need to be further involved in anything, as I'm already over involved in everything,  I guess I'll be paying closer attention.
And, since I'm SO opinionated  I guess I'll have to draft up a few thoughts on rules that might help us be safer & keep the harmony.

When's the next cut off for rule submission?
Deb

[Sumner]

....................So, as much as I don't need to be further involved in anything, as I'm already over involved in everything,  I guess I'll be paying closer attention.
And, since I'm SO opinionated  I guess I'll have to...................

You had better read this....................

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,3600.msg43060/topicseen.html#new

...............someone told me to forward it to everyone I know, but I can't remember who  ,

Sum

[DahMurf]

Sum,
 That is 100% a day in my life and I don't even think I'm old yet.... or am I?

Deb

[1212FBGS]

deb
October is the cut off but anyone can submit change requests at any time... if you are thinking of something send it in as soon as possible as it would give us more time for tweeking and discussion.... The rule people arnt as thoughtless as led to believe... i think if they recieved a requect from an ECTA member they would probably intertain the idea and surely they would look at it... but if they kick it back for non membership, send it to me and i'll be glad to hang my hat on it....

Panic is kinda correct.... in order to go forward you kinda need to look back to understand the reasoning behind the rules...people like Jack, DW, JD, and BB are a wealth of knowledge for this... they have all been involved in the rule process....

after you spend your time and energy understanding the origins of a rule, you cant just stand there and bitch about it... you must do something... so pull up your skirt and grab your sac with your left hand and then start filling out the rule change request form with your right hand... if ya dont, people like me will just consider you as part of the problem...
kent

[Stainless1]

Kent, where did the 15 degree steering stop rule come from?  Was that submitted by a competitor?  By a motorcycle rider?  Seems to me it will just make it harder to maneuver one around.  Anyone using 15 degrees on the course should probably reconsider their options.  If tank slapping stop to stop, I doubt if 5 degree stops or even any degree stops would help more than hurt.