Author Topic: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build  (Read 1031913 times)

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Offline JonAmo

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #930 on: March 01, 2012, 03:37:11 PM »
38,

can you give me these dimensions
Center of Crank to center of blower pulley and what the offset angle is (what distance is from verticle line of crank over to the centerline of blower pulley.   Same with the Idler pulley you are using. Let me know what tooth count is of each pulley as well. The ones that are on the system (we can baseline from there.). So basically I need to know distance up and distance over.  Please try to get as accurate as possible.

How do you know what tension you are want to use on the belt?

Jon
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 03:38:56 PM by JonAmo »

Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #931 on: March 01, 2012, 06:48:35 PM »
Jon, here are the measurements, with the 66T we'll start with on the dyno, and the 48T, that I think we'll run.

Both drawings use a 53T crank pulley. 1st pic is a 66T blower pulley, second one is a 48T blower pulley

Dale sent me these drawings:

66 Pulley – Belt Length is 72.81  (idler in the middle of slot)

48 Tooth Pulley – Belt Length 70.26 - Idler in Middle of Slot:  
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 10:21:00 PM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #932 on: March 01, 2012, 10:23:32 PM »
Thursday Night Update: Welcome to the 'Valley of the Dolls' . . . She's a Strange One Now Aint She?

Just came in from the shop - was waiting on some final bolts, fittings and hardware to complete the whole valley area.   Took one of the lifter blocks back out and swapped out two lifters - the adjusters were a bit loose, and it worried me a bit.  Hopefully these 'Turkish' made lifters will hold up and we won't have adjuster issues -- will probably buy some 'jamb nuts' to bring to BVille!.

1) Oil Lines and Lifter Blocks: The FlatCad was one of the first V8s with hydraulic lifters - so they needed to pressurize them.  BUT - the lifter blocks are removable . . . so they needed special oil lines to deliver pressurized oil to each block.  Part of the reason I'm showing you guys this is that I'd never seen anything quite like it until Buddy lassoed me into the FlatCad project.  Strange setup, but kind of cool as well!  

I installed the oil fittings in the center of the block (they are fed from the outside - middle of the valley - separate exterior oil line).  Then I mounted the special FlatCad oil lines . . . Man am I glad Buddy saved these and gave them to me!   The alternative would have been about $80 of AN fitting junk.

2) Lifter Block Stud Girdle Setup: The stock lifter block setup just used some regular old hardware grade 7/16 bolts to hold each lifter block down (remember, they come out and are not cast into the block).  

There are two cast-iron bosses in the engine block (about 1" diameter) that stick out from the valley sides that these the two lifter block bolts go into (total of 8 bolts).  

What worried me is that with a MUCH larger cam and much faster opening ramps, combined with a lot more spring pressure, it seems to me that there can be a lot more side-load and overall stress on the lifter blocks, bolts and bosses.  With only two 7/16 bolts (sticking way up in the air) . . . just imagine if those cast-iron bosses break off the block!  Holy crap, the lifter block/lifters would probably fall into the cam, and the engine would turn into a 'Parts Blender' in a hurry.  

So, we decided to use ARP studs instead of bolts - they're much stronger and give consistent torque readings (as we're tightening on the fine threaded end).   I torqued them to 70 ft lbs - on the low end of the scale, but I don't want to stress this old block too much!

Then I got the bright (or maybe stupid - you judge!) idea of making 1/4" steel girdle plates to tie the lifter blocks together side-to-side.  To me, this makes the whole thing a lot stronger (acts like a integral unit) - and might reduce any tendency for stud flex, boss breakage, etc..  

Now - do I know this is even an issue to worry about   :? . . . nope . . . this is just the way I always think.   Sometimes it drives Buddy nuts, but heck . . . he puts up with me and my approach to engineering!    We're actually a good team - kind of a check and balance system.   If we have an issue, we talk it out, maybe drink a beer - laugh at ourselves (quite often) and ask for help!  :cheers:

After that, I got to thinking about what else is needed to complete the valley . . . as once the intake girdle, blower manifold and blower are on - we don't want to forget about something and have to tear it all down.  

Hmmmmm - valley covers  (where the hell did I put them???).   Found them in a box and then got to thinking about crankcase pressure and breathers.   Decided to bore holes in them (they were designed for this) and put 1/2" NPT threads in the holes.  This gives us some options to remove crankcase pressure (which is a good thing - especially with a dry sump . . . it needs AIR!).

Included is a picture of the valley . . .  need to buy more hardware to fasten things down.

We're making really good final progress - still a lot to do, but if no really strange issues show up, hope to get all of this done for Buddy to pick it up next week.   Wish us luck gang!

B&S
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 10:26:50 PM by BoredAndStroked »
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #933 on: March 01, 2012, 10:55:28 PM »
It's looking great Dale, but I still think we need some duct tape and bailing wire.... :-D
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #934 on: March 01, 2012, 11:20:52 PM »
B&S -

Considering what you're working with - a 75 year old casting - anything you do to help keep it tied together is going to be a help.  Maybe tying the lifter blocks together is overkill, but look what you're hoping to do with it.  It's that kind of attention to detail that should lead to a long service life from the engine.

I really don't think you can overbuild for durability when you're dealing with an antique. 

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #935 on: March 02, 2012, 12:17:44 AM »
Why were there bosses cast in the lifter blocks where the "girdles" fasten?
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Offline desotoman

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #936 on: March 02, 2012, 01:47:36 AM »
Buddy,

According to RCD's chart, with a spacing of 26.5 inches you can run a 1792 224T 8mm belt with two pulleys that total 111 tooth count. That particular belt length is 70.55 inches. So with a 53 crank pulley you could use a 58 top pulley, which would be about .9 to 1 under-driven blower.

Tom G.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 01:49:19 AM by desotoman »
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #937 on: March 02, 2012, 06:52:27 AM »
Tom, Thanks for the info! If our measurements are correct, we need a 1792 belt to run or 59T pulley.

Jack, in the pic below, you can see the 'bosses' that Dale was referring too. The are the original mounting points for the lifter blocks. The girdles Dale made, mount on top of the lifter blocks, using ARP studs, that are longer than the factory bolts, to factor in the girdle thickness.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 06:54:04 AM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #938 on: March 02, 2012, 07:40:22 AM »
It's looking great Dale, but I still think we need some duct tape and bailing wire.... :-D

Buddy & Dale: Save the wire on the champagne corks after the first dyno run!

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Offline JonAmo

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #939 on: March 02, 2012, 10:34:07 AM »
Now that I have your drive design completed, can I get a few more pieces of information. My data and dimensions are showing a tad different then you are coming up with. Need a few more informational pieces from you.

How much power does it take to drive your blower.
What is the operating RPM range you intend to run.

Please provide the belt number you are running in the pictures you had of engine. This irrelevant to what I am doing I just want to know the part number for my own reference.

Thanks for the drive layout pictures those were very helpfull.

Lastly, please describe your tensioning procedures when you setup your belt.


Jon

Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #940 on: March 02, 2012, 10:50:35 AM »
How much power does it take to drive your blower. I have no idea! It's a teflon stripped, race prepped 6-71. I may be able to get you a better answer after the dyno,but then again-maybe not!

What is the operating RPM range you intend to run. Based on piston speed, I doubt we will be much over 5500 RPM. If the engine preforms well on the dyno, we MAY push that to the 6000 RPM range.

In the pic, the engine had a 53T crank pulley, 48T blower pulley, and a 1760 belt.

Lastly, please describe your tensioning procedures when you setup your belt. I'm not sure what procedure Dale is using. I usually snug the tensioner, rotate the engine a few times, then snug again. I do this until tension remains the same after turning it. When possible, I start the engine, 'blip' it a few times, then check the belt again.

So, what is the proper belt tensioning procedure?

Thanks for looking at this, and offering your expert opinion!


Oh, Woody- I use Duct tape, not Duck tape- I hear it's good for at least 50 MPH more! :-D
« Last Edit: March 02, 2012, 10:52:21 AM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline BoredAndStroked

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #941 on: March 02, 2012, 10:52:09 AM »
Now that I have your drive design completed, can I get a few more pieces of information. My data and dimensions are showing a tad different then you are coming up with. Need a few more informational pieces from you.

How much power does it take to drive your blower.
What is the operating RPM range you intend to run.

Please provide the belt number you are running in the pictures you had of engine. This irrelevant to what I am doing I just want to know the part number for my own reference.

Thanks for the drive layout pictures those were very helpfull.

Lastly, please describe your tensioning procedures when you setup your belt.


Jon

Hey Jon - Dale here.

I'll try to get you some pictures of the actual unit and the idler/tensioner setup - but can't do it until the weekend (along with belt number).  I don't know what HP it takes to drive the blower - but I'll get you some ball-park numbers.

I believe the current belt is a Gates 1760, HTD Powergrip, 75mm width, 8mm style -- will get the number off of it.

Dale
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Offline GH

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #942 on: March 02, 2012, 11:21:30 AM »
I was always told to have the belt somewhat loose when cold, because the aluminum blower case will expand when hot and the belt will become tighter when the engine warms up. This always worked for me on the big block Chevy without a crankshaft support like you are going to use.

Offline JoshH

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #943 on: March 02, 2012, 11:22:21 AM »
The reason Jon is asking for HP because the more horsepower you put through the belt the more tension you need. I've used a free Gates program called DesignIQ for figuring out belt lengths and such, they have more complicated free programs for also figuring out required tension and resultant belt stretch that you might want to look into too. It sounds like you already have a good resource for information but I thought I'd let you know.

A while back I asked RCD how they do it and they said they just tighten the hell out of it… Helpful, very helpfull

Offline 38flattie

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Re: XXO/BVGC '38 Chevy Coupe Build
« Reply #944 on: March 02, 2012, 11:50:30 AM »
Woo-hoo!!!

We're going to be on the 2012 Salt Talks tee shirt-looks like I paid our way to infamy! :evil:



Now, back to the regularly scheduled programming-Thanks Gary and Josh, for the belt tightening info!
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c