Does it matter to you...

[1212FBGS]

Ro
this site is a blast...... u can bag on people till your typing finger hurts and then drink a beer with them at the races. come on and join in.....
Kent

[D-Type]

Apples are apples, oranges are oranges.  there is no way that they are the same.

Similarly the sanctioning body for World records is the organisation that used to be known as the "association international des Automobile Clubs Recconus2 or translated into English "The International association of recognised automobile Clubs", the name was in French because the first car races and the first record attempts were in France.  this organisation later renamed itself the "Federation International Automobile" ot "International Automobile Association" or FIA for short.  they have a set of rules that is recognised all over the world.  For motorcycles there is a similar organisation the "Federation International des Motorcycles" (FIM).  i may not have the names absolutely correct but I'm sure you get the gist.

Then we have the South California Timing Association who time events at Bonneville Salt Flats, Utah, USA and maybe elsewhere.  They have their own rules and classes.

So where's the problem?  There is no question about the accuracy of either organisation's measurements or about their integrity.

But surely only one of them can honestly claim that they are sanctioning World records.

[rosemeyer]

D Type
Problem is that one of them (FIA) wants a monopoly and in our 'global world', you should allow competition!

[Salty Blaster]

Big D

Your wrong. For the most part we live in a free society and there is room for more than one "World Record Organization." Why, we have the AMA & the USFRA too! Any "Real Racer" is free to make their own choice as to World Record recognition. After all, FIA, FIM are all able to come to America and organize record attempts. There is nothing stopping them ... is there?

I'm married to a European, happily I might add, but your old world, elitist attitude is exactly why for the most part we don't care what you do with your records. That's what really bothers your kind isn't it? That your records are marginalized. Real records are set here and will be for a long time to come. Throughout Euro history all the great ones came here to set "World Records." Deny that and you repudiate your own motorsport history.

By the way, it was actually a German that invented the first working car not the French. After all, no Frenchmen ever passes up an opportunity to salute a BMW!

[1212FBGS]

"D"
yo dude your forgetting an important thing, the FIM or FIA don't run land speed racing events!!!! and they NEVER HAVE!!!!! they are a small minded elitist group that for a fee will sanction your event, whatever it is(car, buss, scateboard)!!!!! The SCTA ONLY holds land speed events and has done so continually for the last 50+years. So in a logical persons mind, one would think that the SCTA would be the experts in that specific field. If you want true credibility in claiming a land speed record, come play with us.
peace and grease
Kent Riches

[Malcolm UK]

Whilst the FIA do not organise land speed racing events, they have attended and adjudicated on enough speed attempts in the last 94 years to ensure that land speed records, set by the fastest classes of vehicles, have all followed an identical independent set of operating rules.

Can't see how the FIA can be exercising a "monopoly" when the SCTA have run their world record events untroubled (except by the weather - that must be the Europeans fault then!) for 58 years on the salt and on the dirt before that, for the variety of cars that their racers build.  

As the SCTA have many World Records and the FIA have only two (if you do not count the closed course speed record) I do not see any great European influence on the SCTA.  As the SCTA do not accept thrust power we are just looking at one record that both acknowledge as the fastest ever wheeldriven.

Now everyone will be wondering why there have been so many postings on this and like topics since the internet and the land speed list and landracing.com have allowed racers to chat amongst themselves from anywhere in the world?

[JackD]

The fastest vehicles always seek FIA  FIM recognition.
Go figure !
More "Roostering" I suspect.

[rosemeyer]

Am I the only one on this thread who hasn't his convictions dictated by his country of residence?

Kent Riches and Salty Blaster are absolutely right: FIA and FIM governing from Europe don't want to run record events, but they want to keep control of the results: sanction, certificates, lists, etc...

What is suspect is that they don't do a very good job of it. While the FIA pays great attention to outright world records (Breedlove, Arfons, Gabelich, Noble, Green and so on) and does its best to be associated with the publicity, anything else like an international class record is basically ignored, mostly if it broken during a club meeting in America -SCTA/BNI. In most cases, they pocket the money, and ignore their statutory duties -to provide certificate, amend list of records, etc...What interest them are the prestigious events!

Which for an American land speed racing audience must look like the ultimate form of contempt if not downright fraudulent. No wonder that for American racers FIA and FIM are perceived as a 'small minded elitist group' out of touch with reality. They are distant (both geographically and attitude wise), unapproachable, and full of their own importance. That's what causes the divide.
FIA and FIM are about everything on 4 & 2 wheels: safety, tourism, road traffic, GPs, Championships, F1, F2, rallies, sportscars, enduros, X-cross, etc... etc...

Opposed to that, there are organising clubs who do all the 'graft'  work and are not recognised important enough to administer records.
To quote Kent Riches, "SCTA ONLY holds land speed events ... for the last 50 years". That's enough for credentials, isn't it?

For most Europeans who have any international or world record ambitions, they MUST go through FIA or FIM, because we DO NOT have in Europe any organising clubs like SCTA/BNI, USFRA, ECTA, DLRA, etc... We do NOT HAVE land speed racing organising clubs. This is what dictates their attitude and why people like Malcolm UK worships FIA; without a FIA stamp, his record wouldn't have any significance in UK.

This is different in America where a Bonneville record is highly regarded.
In America, you can be 'self-sufficient' in Europe we don't have that luxury.

I am 'European', but I really can't see why it is not possible to have two "World Record Organisations", or why a SCTA sanction for records organised under their jurisdiction and under the same rules is not acceptable to Europeans.

If, (to quote the 'wise' JackD) "the fastest vehicles always seek FIA FIM recognition", maybe it's about time that attitudes start changing in this sport and people realise who gives them value for money.

[JackD]

If the SCTA/BNI organized a group to manage the FIA FIM LSR affairs, they would not be refused.
As long as they continue to fight about "Who has the biggest one", that is as far as they are going to get.
If you have a leading status in the sport, use it to prevale or be content to "Rooster."

[hawkwind]

Confucius say - only land speed racers seek true enlightment  , rest of world don't give a flying copulation  

[JackD]

Confucius say - only land speed racers seek true enlightenment  , rest of world don't give a flying copulation  

He learned that from his daddy, Confusion.

[dwarner]

If, (to quote the 'wise' JackD) "the fastest vehicles always seek FIA FIM recognition",

Not true, re: ABB electric attempt on some obscure road in Nevada's Badlands.

If you want to be the fastest, challenge the fastest. Biggest gun wins!

DW

[dwarner]

If the SCTA/BNI organized a group to manage the FIA FIM LSR affairs, they would not be refused.


JackD,

Do I smell LSA?

DW

[JackD]

The Electric car did seek FIA, and it wasn't the fastest, but it wanted to be.

[Malcolm UK]

To have the FIA (or FIM) as the governing body at your speed record attempt you have to invite them - they do not just turn up!  And the 'you' in all of this is the racer who wants their recognition.  The paperwork that the racer fills in has all of his own details, the names of the people in charge and the details those of the then current record holder including speeds etc. and much more.

As to the FIA records list, even I cannot understand why some records set on the Bonneville salt flats by American drivers have not been entered correctly or in full.  But I would suggest that the answer is not to be found in FIA Paris, but somewhere within the shores of the USA.  May I quote the opening sentence of FIA Art 232 - Registration of Records.  "Each ASN shall keep an up-to-date register of all records established or broken on its own territory".  (for accuracy this para does then go on about the FIA for International and World ... ).  I have not highlighted the word 'all' as it is not in the Appendix D, but there should never y need for referral outside the USA!  

The ASN for America is ACCUS (who devolve governance at the attempts on its 'territory' to officials from its member clubs USAC or SCCA).  ACCUS was at advantage to all other ASN's as its leader, until earlier this year, was the Chairman of the FIA Records Commission.

If the SCTA were to be a member of ACCUS (you cannot have two ASN in one country) then all could be managed without any problems ..... other than the SCTA having to re-name the records set under the procedures used that are other than the FIA operating rules.

The FIA has about 180 irganisations around the world who could put their name to an FIA record, but in the USA the recognition is of ACCUS not SCTA.  I have not told (and never will try to tell) my US racer friends how they should reorganise themselves, but Jack D must have tried in the past.  

How Rosemeyer can keep implying thet its all a 'european' problem is beyond me?  Perhaps he and Land Speed Louise as writers have some form of common agenda?  

Thanks JackD for providing the answer about ABB e=motion.