Does it matter to you...

[Sumner]

I'm wondering if it matters to you who certifies a speed?  Say BNI, SCTA, FIM, ECTA, etc..  Not to pick on you, Malcolm, but it seems you don't think much of a record unless it is under FIM operating rules.  Others may pick other organizations.

To me if any of these organizations say a vehicle goes such and such speed I'll take it for what it is worth under the conditions that organization has to work.

BNI is on the salt.  260 mph over a measured mile after a 2 to 4 mile run-up is the measure there and you have to average the speed for a total mile not 132 feet or some other distance.  If someone can do that on a bike I'm very impressed.

At say ECTA running on pavement you have, I believe 1 mile to get up to speed and then a short speed trap and then not very much room to stop in.  Get up to 260 mph there under those conditions and I'm also very impressed.  The speeds can be the same, but the conditions and the setup of the bike is probably totally different.  They both run 260 and I'm impressed by both.

Do I need FIM there to certify it or to have the meet run to "their" standards to make it more official?  For me no.

What is your opinion?

c ya, Sum

[Malcolm UK]

All I do is point out that if there is a claim for a 'World Record' or an 'International record' then it should be set in accordance with operating rules that all around the world can comply with.  Since 1911 for cars that has meant two way runs in 1 hour.  For the bikes since WW1 two runs within two hours and only minimal maintenance between them is the rule.

I have never expressed any negative view on the accuracy or credibility of records set to local or national standards (mostly in the US).  If you want a Bonneville record then you run to SCTA/BNI rules on the salt.  You want an El Mirage record - ditto on the dirt.  If you run pavement then ECTA provide the events for you.  If you happen to be in Australia you run to DLRA rules.  If you come to Britain you run MSA rules for cars and ACU rules for bikes.  If you want to be recognised in an International class anywhere (and that means without restrictions on altitude) in the World, you run FIA or FIM.

If you want to compare one record speed with another then how the attempt was made becomes important.  An avreage speed for 1 mile cannot be compared with an average speed for a 1320 foot timing trap or 132 foot timing trap.  

My only concern is that under SCTA/BNI operating rules there has been an attempt that it seems (I was not present) would not meet with FIA rules, yet a US team wants to claim an 'International record'.  And that setting themseleves as the so called 'World Authority' the SCTA/BNI then will not recognise record speeds set anywhere other than Bonneville USA.

If you want a World Motorcycle record then you can run FIM at the Bub Meeting or on private time anywhere else, and you will observed to ensure that you meet with the record operating rules of that organisation.

[hitz]

Bonneville and SCTA have been "magic" words since the early '50's for me. So I think the records that are made there are the most imortant.

FIM seems remote to me even though I followed motorcycle and car road races in Europe for a long time before it was popular here. To a European or Brit the pick would probably be the FIM.

The lakes racing here is mostly home built cars and the FIM seems to be mostly factory endeavors. It's hard, if not impossible to compare the two or any of the other associations. I'd like to be evolved in all of them.

The LSR in Australia is going to put a new international face on dry lake racing. Good luck to all that are able to go there!

[Malcolm UK]

Whatever the sanctioning body the land speed racing world should be united in avoiding or distancing itself from 'attempts' that do not use independant timing methods and track surveying & operation observation.  The Budweiser attempt is an example of a team trying to prove themselves by circumventing any independant standards.

To me this means no on vehicle GPS speed measurements either.

And as for 'made up' records such as that for a certain F1 car - then the LSR people should not get involved unless there are written rules for anyone else to adhere to.  

And just in case you are interested, there are published rules for running a milk float!

[Dean Los Angeles]

The sponsoring organization is of interest only if you are trying to compare records set in two different places. A record set at Bonneville has the handicap of 4200 feet of elevation and traction like wet mush. The Texas Mile is at 300 feet and paved. Better air and more traction equals more speed.

The rules for each organization also make a difference depending on the restrictions placed on the bike and the way it is run.

But no matter what, if a 1650cc bike runs 246.818 under any circumstances, then hey buddy, beat that!

I wonder about the accuracy of any of these records. Is it really a mile? The standard for all measurements it the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) and The European Committee for Standardization (CEN).

Are measurements traceable to those organizations? Does AMA or FIM certification for the measured mile, the measured CC or any other measurement really stand up?

When the Hubble space telescope was put into service they quickly learned that the optics were off. Despite measurements to the billionths and full traceability, a check fixture for the main mirror was put in backwards and nobody caught it. The fix was to do a space walk and put "glasses" on it to correct it.

So I wonder track to track and year to year what the accuracy really is?

[JackD]

Like anything else it is different on So Cal.
In the US a "Milk Float" is a "Milk Truck".
You see, it's the same thing , only different.
"Don't date out of your species."  

You suspect I have more to say on the subject?
 You go first and lets see how far you get.
130 views and 7 votes ao 8A pst. REMARKABLE !

[Malcolm UK]

The measurement of a mile and kilometre is defined by the FIM and the FIA in their operating rules.  If you a running on a track the record line position is defined so that each bend is accounted for.  Now what do you folks do in SCTA/BNI?

Can't see how the accuracy of the length of the timing trap makes much difference to the whole operating procedure ......... but for most attempts that I have organised anywhere in the world (Bonneville Salt, Tunisian Salt, UK Airfiels, Nevada highway 93A etc...) I have paid for the independant surveyor, for his skills and his report, along with confirmation that the equipment has visited a national measurement lab for calibration.  

When it comes to timing, the clocks have to be certified and the timekeepers are recognised by the governing body as being competent to use automatic kit - just like lsr all around the world.  

Not sure if this poll will take us any further forward?  It should matter to ALL of us who sanctions a speed record - fair, accurate, repeatable, independant - but what that body is called only matters when you look at the operating procedures and then give a name to the fastest speeds being achieved.

JackD - They may be milk trucks in the USA, but the rules say they must have electric traction drive that is powered by batteries.

[Sumner]

All I do is point out that if there is a claim for a 'World Record' or an 'International record' then it should be set in accordance with operating rules that all around the world can comply with.  Since 1911 for cars that has meant two way runs in 1 hour.  For the bikes since WW1 two runs within two hours and only minimal maintenance between them is the rule.

I would have to say that the above is the FIA/FIM rule.  BNI was over the same measured mile in opposite directions until safety ruled that out for a while and probably should have ruled it out permanently unless the salt really improves.  So then with two runs in the same direction over the same measured mile a lot of records fell.  Anyone in the world is welcome on the salt, so I have no problem with a record being set there being called a world record knowing it was under BNI's conditions for a record and it is acknowledged as a world record under their rules.  

When Teague set his 409 mph record he almost didn't have the money to pay for FIA or FIM certification.  Now if he wouldn't have and still ran the same speed which was faster that anyone had run before and on the very same clocks is it fair to say he didn't set a world record?  

If someone sets a record under FIA/FIM standards I have no problem with that being a "world record" an so stated under their rules.

I think when Joe Public hears Green, Burkland, Teague, etc. goes so fast in the news to them all that is important is the speed.  They don't have a clue about all of this that we are talking about.

I know what you are saying about comparing apples to apples under what condition the record was set at, but even there you have a lot of variables, a lot of which depends on how much money you have to spend, to where and how you do those two runs in one hour.  And so you might have a hard time comparing a new record set to an old record that was at a completely different place under completely different circumstances.

Nothing is perfect, nothing ever will and I can bet all the money I have, not much, that things will change.  

c ya and thanks for your thoughts,

Sum

[rosemeyer]

Interesting topic this!! I feel some 'deja vu'.
BNI speed against Bonneville speed; no comparison in my view. Measured mile against a short distance.
That doesn't mean that a speed set at Maxton has no value, but you can't get away with the fact that it's not over a mile.
I'm sure that it's very challenging with frantic acceleration and short distance to stop, as opposed to Bonneville where smoothness is required to reach top speed, and where there is more room to slow down.
Now, regarding a BNI 2-way record and a FIM/FIA record, what the difference? Money!
If you want to pay to register your attempt and obtain an official from these bodies to come and 'observe' the proceeding, it will cost you more, with the satisfaction of having your name on their record list if you are successful and comply to their procedures. Some people prefer to mirror the procedures, run BNI and spend the money on their engine.
Sumner is absolutely right when he says that the average punter can't see the difference. Only the purists object!!
Some of the BNI records were set at higher speed than some FIA/FIM records, this is where it's funny. Some folks choose the easy option and challenge the lower speed, claiming they are after an 'official' record.
A complete waste of time if you ask me.
An added problem is that these international bodies fail to administer properly their record list (FIA) or change suddenly the rules (FIM).
When asked why, they mumble that the 'other' record is not official, etc...
A Bonneville record, BNI or other will always get respect.

[rosemeyer]

I got it from someone that the FIA would have been demanding ?8000 (or $12,000 maybe) to 'officiate' during a private record attempt at Bonneville this summer. That doesn't include course preparation, medical support, timekeepers, track survey and so on.  My source wants to remain anonymous. I can't believe it myself!
No wonder that, with these charges, people prefer to run BNI!

Regarding Sumner comment about Al Teague, I couldn't agree more.
What still surprises me though is that much is still talked about Al's 1-mile record at 409.978mph (if I am correct), but almost everyone forget the 1-kilo record he set at the same time at 425.050mph. Does the kilo record counts for nothing then?

Al Teague typifies the Bonneville racers: guys who do things themselves and progress through the ranks years after years. I have press cuttings from Al dating from 73, showing him with a Chrysler turbo engine roadster, then he built his lakester, which he converted to a streamliner to finally get the FIA record after years of trying. When he got that, he didn't go home, he kept coming back to Bonneville every year with different engines and got more records. A racer in the hot-rod tradition, and there are many like him at Bonneville.

Compared to that, most of the European efforts have been 'one-day-wonders' or failures. If they get a record, they go home and brag about it for the rest of their life, if they fail, they whinge for ever, or argue about rules, protocol and so on...

[Malcolm UK]

If I wish to set an International or World Land Speed Record at a venue other than Bonneville I can only do so under the governance of the FIA or FIM.  The SCTA/BNI do not want to know me and my bid.  There are racers from the US who think such alternative sites are "suicidal" though.  Me thinks that there is a case of "one course mind" to be dealt with here.

If I want to set an International or World record at Bonneville then like Vesco, Teague, Rummerfield, Wheeler, White and so on ....  I may feel that the presence of the FIA or FIM makes my effort more understanable around the whole world.  If not why did these and many other American racers want one or other of these bodies there?

Rosemeyer - your costings for private time FIA/ACCUS/SCCA/USAC attendance at an International record attempt are wrong, the sum you were quoted is low (unless I got a bad deal!).  Spread amongst a number of racers such as at the Bub meeting the costs are bearable but not 'cheap'.  

"How fast do you want to go - how much do you have to spend!"

Also, if you have to ask an American audience about such French things as a Kilometre record being recognised ahead of a mile record then be prepared for some abuse.  I find it amusing how many racers (Brits are included here) want their mile speeds to be a record rather than the often quicker kilometre speed.

Of course two way runs to a central timing trap shortens the available acceleration distance, but that means that you may need to look away from Bonneville for FIA and FIM attempts - which of course for many US racers will not happen.  Lets see how the US bikers report on Lake Gairdner and any records established or broken there.

[Malcolm UK]

Rosemeyer - would you care to put names to the European "one day wonders" who have either broken records and are bragging or who have failed in their bids and are whinging?  Name an individual who has argued about the rules?

Only by giving names in public would such statements be worth considering.

Remember too that not everyone can travel to an overseas venue year after year to increase their own record, in the manner described by you for Al Teague.  Most European teams can only make one long distance trip for any one record.

[rosemeyer]

Malcolm UK.
-Without wanting to take anything away from their record achievements, the name Campbell -father and son- comes to mind when it comes to braggart or whinger. Malcolm C. - a publicity seeker if there was one - never stop using his record career to obtain some sort of advantage and kept lobbying politicians at home to get included in the Honour List until he got a knighthood. His vanity made him insufferable to his contemporaries - "That show off" said John Cobb.
After his mishap at Bonneville, his son cursed the venue for ever, although the opinion of his entourage was that he had accelerated too quickly. Unable to accept his mistake, he blamed the track instead, "Too short". Because of his obstinatation in not running here ever again, CN7 never reached his true potential (to the dissapointment of Ken Norris in particular).
-The recent spat from the ABB e=motion team about the validity of their competitor's record is a recent example of sour grapes. Buckeye Bullet DID reach 272mph average for an international record under FIA rules (1 hour turn-around) and 315mph for a national record under BNI rules (4 hour turn around), but they didn't bother to get it sanctionned by FIA. Refusing to accept this, amid great publicity the e=motion team prefered to target White Lightning inferior speed, although even Pat Rummerfield acknowledges Buckeye Bullet as the record holder now. At the first hurdle, they spat their dummy and put their car up for sale!
-Bad idea to quote Vesco and Nolan in the same breath with FIA if you want to argue your case: Don didn't even receive his record certificate when he was alive and Rick White's name was still not on the FIA record list last time I checked!
-Checked again with my source. The FIA quote was ?8000. Fees must be depending on the length of time booked, I would have thought.
-The kilometre was certainly an French thing originally -thanks to good old Napoleon-, but the metric system has been adopted almost universally now (even in Australia and South Africa I believe), and the FIA quote MPH and KM/H for speeds and miles and kilo for distances. More important, I was under the impression (correct me if I am wrong), that in the case of an outright world speed record, the highest of the mile OR kilo speed average would be taken in consideration. Al Teague's case, he barely broke Goldenrod's record over the mile, but surely smashed it over the kilo.

[dwarner]

Bravo!!!!

DW

[Malcolm UK]

In view of the number of times that Malcolm Campbell set the record at ever higher speeds we will have to disagree about a 'one day wonder'.  The person may not have been as racers are today but that was how those with substantial income often presented themselves.  Is this risky endeavour of speed record breaking meant also to be a popularity contest?  Personalities differ and as often happens there are some people that are not universally liked.  However the number of record speeds achioeved has to be acknowledged.

As to the son, you will know that Donald involved British industry and that led to the 'Indy Patade' operation at Bonneville at the 1960 event.  Then he crashed the car through a combiantion of inexperience and possibly the affects of his breathing system.  He then went to Australia and inspite of the weather stayed at the task to break the record.  Racing drivers the world over have blamed "the track" as a reason for not achieving their goals.

As to the ABB e=motion 'recent spat' as you call it that arises because of the difference that is argued time and again on this and other forums as to whose rules and operations you run to.  At least both teams have run to somebodies rules.  If, as that team (Primetime) were, you are aiming at the FIA record then that is the speed that will be publicised as the target record.  Whether the driver of the current record has an opinion, his speed remains on the FIA list.  If you hold an FIA licence you are not in a position to take a view contrary to that of your governing body.

The driver of the Buckeye Bullet has said that on each run made at Bonneville the car was push started.  To my information he did not describe that the BNI runs were any different.  Not being on the salt myself I am not in a position to confirm the accuracy of this.

After 5 years of a project the reaction to five non-starts (after a successful test run) was to stop the project and sell the car in its condition at that time.  Upon reflection as I reported here and on the landspeed list, they have repaired the car, will carry out further testing with different gearing and may return to challenge the FIA records at a later date - but to offend many here it will probably still not be on the salt flats.    

Once again when it comes to FIA ratification the team are represented by their National governing body when dealing with the FIA records Commission.  So the late Don Vesco was let down by an American organisation, but writers choose only to blame the French part of the process.  The records Commission is chaired by an American!

Just for accuracy Al Teague was never directly challenging the Summers Brothers Goldenrod record - Al was in the supercharged class, Bob in the unsuprecharged.  As to publicising the faster speed - that is for the record holder to bring to the attention of the public - the FIA list both.  The Gabelich record in Blue Flame over the kilo was a similar situation, exploited only by the Sinsheim Museum, who kept the kilo speed record well publicised by the banner behind the rocket car.  It was only in 1997 that this record fell to Andy Green.

There is nothing written down that says the higher speed record takes precedent in the car world.  Al Teague had the mile record as well as the kilo and his audience was not told about the speed over the lesser distance.  Who the governing body is makes no difference to this.