Author Topic: Motorcycle tire rule change  (Read 142268 times)

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Offline fredvance

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #240 on: May 29, 2010, 04:04:33 PM »
http://motorcycle.motorcycle-superstore.com/search#w=bt003 I think I figured it out. Who says you cant teach old dogs new tricks. :cheers:

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Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #241 on: May 29, 2010, 06:27:33 PM »
Great Job Fred, but those tires are ZR rated.  Now what?

So, since the manufacturer calls them "Racing" tires that makes them OK, but they also call them ZR rated for the street, so that disqualifies them?

Or since they are ZR rated Racing tires, they are perfect?

Just wondering.

Guy
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 06:29:17 PM by 2fast4u2c »
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Offline fredvance

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #242 on: May 29, 2010, 06:30:31 PM »
Guy, they are called dot approved race tires. That makes them OK. Approved by Tom Evans

You coming to Bonneville??   :cheers:

  Fred
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Offline 2fast4u2c

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #243 on: May 29, 2010, 06:32:55 PM »
Taking the "Tiger" is out of the question with all of it's polished aluminum and chrome.  But going to the salt is on my bucket list.  you never know when i might walk up behind you and tap you on the shoulder out there. :-)
300mph or Bust in 1 mile!!!
 
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Offline VeeTwin

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #244 on: May 29, 2010, 08:48:40 PM »
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Let see, in a court of law who is the judge going to believe, a racer who runs a certain tire, or a man who makes his living engineering tires, for a tire company?

Oh, I understand completely. Nobody else deserves to even have input, or be able to make a comment, or to even know it's being considered, because someone else knows what's best for them.

That's called "arrogance", and what you're seeing in this thread is a backlash against that arrogance.

Offline VeeTwin

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #245 on: May 29, 2010, 08:53:30 PM »
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But having read the above and read the 16 pages previous I can understand why these things are done  in "secret". 

I submit that these 16 pages wouldn't be here if it hadn't been done in secret.

People have a vested interest in the subject. To close them out of the process, not even allow them to have input, and then drop a decision on them, well, what do you expect? Of course there are questions, and concerns, and comments.

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I am curious to know how a tire rated to 186 mph can be considered safe at almost 100 mph faster than its rating?

You and Noonan must've gone to the same elementary school. This rule takes effect at 200mph, not 270. That's a difference of 14mph, not 100mph.

I know of at least one ZR rated tire that's certified by it's manufacturer to 200mph.

Offline VeeTwin

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #246 on: May 29, 2010, 09:11:04 PM »
How will you now involve 150, round number, concerned motorcycle racers and get the opinion of all those who are involved?

It's absolutely trivial, and in fact other sanctioning bodies have been doing it for decades. For every proposed rule change, they publish it, and open up a comment period. The idea of the comment period is to bring up any concerns the racers have and possibly bring up something the MFWIC's aren't considering. Even the best of MFWIC's make mistakes, as you well know. Sometimes it's wording errors like yours, other times it's just a failure to see unintended consequences - the M category cases rule comes to mind.

The important thing is that you at least involve the people who will be affected. People will accept changes much better if they at least have the opportunity to comment, even if they don't like the change. The way this organization runs, people are constantly getting blindsided. Sometimes it costs us a big pile of money, too, because changes happen that we had no clue were even coming. The whole thing is just ridiculous. It comes across as people who are just sure that they know best and nobody else could possibly have useful input. That's called arrogance.

The traditional way to do this is in the sanctioning body's newsletter. SCTA could easily post proposed rule changes on their website, and provide an e-mail address for comments to be sent. All e-mails on the subject could be published. All you really have to do is make people feel like they got a say. Nobody reasonable believes they'll always get their way. By locking people out you're basically assuming that everyone is unreasonable except the anointed few. That's total BS. People by and large are reasonable if you treat them with a little respect, which you're not.

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If you send out a poll, by any method you will get maybe 30% response. This does not involve your 150 racers by any stretch of the imagination.

So what? The point is that you give people a chance. Right now you're not even giving us a chance.

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How long do you think the process to reach a decision will take? It took us 5 years to formulate the Classic Category on the car side.

That's a cop-out. It's not going to take you 5 years to read everyone's comments.

You're operating on a base assumption that people are too unreasonable to be allowed a say. That's not only false, it's arrogant.

I'm not proposing we write rules by group consensus; that would take 5 years for every change, if you were lucky. I'm proposing that you give us a heads up and allow us to comment. This is a very, very common thing in the rest of the racing universe, most of which have many times more members than SCTA.

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We tried to include all current and potential people who would be affected plus most of the LSR car builders in So. Cal.

I don't believe you. I know multiple people who are affected and knew nothing of what was going on.

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The above is of course assuming that you have volunteered your time to assist the SCTA Board by attending meetings, involving yourself with the running of the meets and any number of things that are required of those that give unselfishly to provide the competitors of the safest possible venues.

Nobody is questioning  any of that. What I'm questioning is why SCTA can't do like multiple other organizations and allow the racers to a) be told in advance about upcoming changes, and b) to comment on them.

Had you done that, for example, on the helmet rule, your mistake would've been caught.

Personally I have no problem with this tire rule. What I have a problem with is always being blind sided.


Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #247 on: May 29, 2010, 09:19:51 PM »
VeeTwin, would you be so kind as to tell us what ZR rated tire is certified by its manufacturer to 200 mph?  One of the bikes in our team stable runs right at the edge of 200 -- and a tire certified to that speed is of interest to me (and probably to others).  Thanks.
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Offline Nortonist 592

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #248 on: May 29, 2010, 09:22:53 PM »

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I am curious to know how a tire rated to 186 mph can be considered safe at almost 100 mph faster than its rating?

You and Noonan must've gone to the same elementary school. This rule takes effect at 200mph, not 270. That's a difference of 14mph, not 100mph.

I know of at least one ZR rated tire that's certified by it's manufacturer to 200mph.


John and I didn't go to the same elementary school.  Or high school (in case you're curious).  I'm fully aware that the rule takes effect at 200 mph.  I seriosly doubt that any of the 200 mph+ racers will shut off at 200 mph.  So far you have contributed nothing to this thread except to bitch about the process of how this rule came into being.  Right down to not naming the manufacturer of a certified 200mph tire.  And perhaps you could elaborate on how this tire that is rated to 200 mph will be safe at 270 mph.
Get off the stove Grandad.  You're too old to be riding the range.

Offline John Noonan

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #249 on: May 29, 2010, 10:13:12 PM »
VeeTwin,

If you want to be a part of these decisions then please post who you are, the speeds you have run on what vehicle as I am sure we can use more people like yourself to assist in these tough decisions.  As of right now you are an Anonymous internet poster.  After reading some of your earlier postings (well before this round of posting) you came off as a smart person and had good credible information.

You have made comments about be however I am bigger than that and will let it go so please tell us or me what you want to add and your LSR history please.

John

Offline VeeTwin

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #250 on: May 30, 2010, 12:22:04 AM »
VeeTwin, would you be so kind as to tell us what ZR rated tire is certified by its manufacturer to 200 mph?  One of the bikes in our team stable runs right at the edge of 200 -- and a tire certified to that speed is of interest to me (and probably to others).  Thanks.

Sure.

Manufacturer's Description:

The Michelin Pilot Sport HPX has been engineered with a particular emphasis on high-speed stability, The rear Pilot Sport HPX has been certified under stringent European requirements atspeeds up to 200 mph* (320 km/h).

With special tread compound developed for sustained high speeds. The rear tread pattern combines large tread blocks and uniform distribution of the tread grooves, for excellent grip, efficient water evacuation, and optimal wear pattern.The front tread pattern similar to that of the rear tyre, for powerful braking, grip on wet roads, and even treadwear.


You can find this same wording practically everywhere they're sold, it's not a secret. Here are just a handful of what must be hundreds of examples:

http://www.tyre-shopper.co.uk/article.asp?id=775&title=Michelin-Pilot-Sport-HPX-
http://www.kneedraggers.com/details/Michelin_Pilot_Sport_HPX_Rear_Tires--42-PSPORTHPX.html
http://www.compacc.com/p/Michelin-Pilot-Sport-HPX-Tires-Z-Rated-Rear/1701003/0
http://www.ridedirect.com/showProduct.php?id=159&cat_id=41
http://stores.sportbiketrackgear.com/Detail.bok?no=1222

Offline VeeTwin

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #251 on: May 30, 2010, 12:28:01 AM »
 And perhaps you could elaborate on how this tire that is rated to 200 mph will be safe at 270 mph.

Your reading comprehension is as bad as your math. I never made any such claim.

But the fact is we have a certified 200mph tire and it's not legal to run 200mph. Instead, per the new rule, we must use a tire that's not certified for that speed. Does that make any sense to you?

This is exactly the kind of thing an open comment period might have brought to the attention of the anointed few. You've made my point for me perfectly.

It might be that 200mph was not the right cut off. Did the anointed few have this information? we have no idea. Nobody asked.

Offline desotoman

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #252 on: May 30, 2010, 12:39:57 AM »
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Let see, in a court of law who is the judge going to believe, a racer who runs a certain tire, or a man who makes his living engineering tires, for a tire company?

Oh, I understand completely. Nobody else deserves to even have input, or be able to make a comment, or to even know it's being considered, because someone else knows what's best for them.

That's called "arrogance", and what you're seeing in this thread is a backlash against that arrogance.

Obviously you did not read my whole post. It is all about insurance.

Tom G.

I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #253 on: May 30, 2010, 12:41:27 AM »
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You will say everyone should have been involved but you also know that's not practical.

You're telling me that in this day and age of instant worldwide communications, it's "not practical" to solicit input from all affected parties? Seriously?

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No, it's an opinion, and might even be wrong.
OK, by all means, prove me wrong. How many people actually knew this was going on? You give me that number, we'll compare it to the number of people racing who've run over 200 or have a reasonable chance of running over 200.

You know, when a person has no argument, and just makes claims that make no sense like these two claims you just made, it's pretty hard to take him seriously.

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It's not always agreed to be the best change but the organization ALWAYS has the best intrest of the racer at heart. Why, because they ARE RACERS TOO!

I've read this whole thread and I have yet to see anyone question their motivation. Many people have questioned the conclusion, as would be expected since they were left out of the process. What I'm personally questioning is the process they use. Buying the tires is no big deal to me. But so long as this organization continues to avoid input from the racers, they can expect everything they do to get questioned and criticized.

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The bottom line is the tire engineers were/are very nervious about racers running as fast as they are on street tires. End of story.

So the opinion of the tire engineers makes it the "End of story"? And therefore many of the people who are actually doing this and putting their necks on the line have no say?

That's exactly the arrogance I'm talking about. You made my point perfectly.

Vee Twin I have no intrest in crossing swords with you. You are in titled to you view, & I've been in your shoes before. Thats one good reason to go to board meetings. I've also run events with the SCCA, IMSA, Nascar, NHRA, & SCTA. Never was I asked my point of view on a rule change. That doesn't make it right but in the case of the SCTA they have well over one hundred people at the monthly board meetings. Your club (you are in a club right?) should have a rep there. The rep reports to the club & the club sends out minuets as does the SCTA board. Like I said before, the SCTA has your best intrest at heart, and really doesn't need EVERYONES approval, because that will never come. As such they put a comettee together to get a consensus. Sorry you don't agree with there decision but it wasn't done in secret.
Michael LeFevers
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Offline VeeTwin

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #254 on: May 30, 2010, 12:53:21 AM »
I've also run events with the SCCA, IMSA, Nascar, NHRA, & SCTA. Never was I asked my point of view on a rule change."

I've raced in one of the organizations you mention, and they most certainly did share with the membership what their thinking was on rule changes, and allow for a comment period. So either you weren't paying attention, or you're attempting to BS us.

Why would a comment period be a bad thing? Can anyone tell me that?

You're going to get the comments anyway. Isn't it better to get them before the rule change? What if there's pertinent information you might be missing, such as the above info about a 200mph certified ZR tire?