Motorcycle tire rule change

[1212FBGS]

anvil: look at the 125cc GP road racing tires..... your problem is solved!

46champ: what part of Russian roulette do you like the best?... "Seems to be" is not what "we" think is safe... maybe you could re read this entire post... We need hard proven empirical testing the tires are safe over 186mph... Can you provide test results.?.... We haven't been able to come up with any....the only testing has been done by the manufacturers and they say the tires are not safe.... period....  It's not because the tire companies just don't want us too... Let me make another example... any performance company looks for exceptional performance use of there products for advertising purposes... doesn't make a difference, exhaust pipes, pistons, tire, etc... they use motorsports for advertising.... maybe you can call Bill W, John Noonan, or Joe Amo and ask them how many tire manufacturers are beating their door down throwing them tires and money to endorse their products.....Not a one baby.... as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure the tire guys wouldn't even talk to them for info much less advertise their accomplishments.... WHY? They do not want to give "implied consent" over their safety warnings..... because the tires are not safe!
By the way what dog do you have in this fight?

Kent

Kent

[Anvil*]

anvil: look at the 125cc GP road racing tires..... your problem is solved!
*snip*
Kent

We'll it meets the letter of the rules, thanks... and I've had my AFM bike on 125GP tires, just no where near 130 much less over 200. With frontrunners there was no worry about the speed, so I may just keep one in the front anyway since that's still legal. Odd too since on a small bikes the front brake throws more raw horsepower around than the engine. The rules will likely change a few more times before a chassis gets built. I still haven't finished the cylinder head design and that's been...ouch, almost a year.

Wish the problem was as simple as just having race tires. Speed, weight, horsepower, slippage, and surface conditions. It would be hard to sort through the past of what worked and where the problems start. Just have to wait and see I guess, as people running this year work to sort it all out.

[46champ]

How come when I post short flippet statements it works everytime but when I spend a bunch of time typing something with actual thought involved it disappears into cyber space.  Guess it wasn't that important.

[Peter Jack]

There have been some issues with posting in the last few days. I know SSS is working on it.

Pete

[Milwaukee Midget]

How come when I post short flippet statements it works everytime but when I spend a bunch of time typing something with actual thought involved it disappears into cyber space.  Guess it wasn't that important.

Best bet to avoid that - write it up on Word or Notepad, or - whatever - then cut and paste it into the post.  If it doesn't go through the first time due to server or computer issues, you have the copy right there in front of you to try it again.

[maj]

I have been wading through this for several days and for Jim and myself its not such a big issue,  softer tires will survive ok on our 750's at 220 ish  , but when you see warnings like this on the Dunlop site
Daytona: tire used at Daytona must be the recommended Daytona compounds of 2783 front and W722 rear. Any other compound is not recommended for Daytona and WILL overheat at some point. It is not advised to use a non-Daytona compound for even just a few laps at Daytona. The high banks of Daytona create excessive heat over other racetracks

That even for a few laps about covers us pretty well... consider carefully your choices ...

At least we will get to test at Bubs before being dependant on our choice at WOS

[Randall Parker]

I do not agree with the board on this issue.  M/C riders on the salt have tested tires now over 200mph for more than 10 years.  That is statistically significant.  One catastrophic failure during that time and I personally saw the debris/car engine parts in the timing van collected after Jason's crash.  When you have this much data it has to count.  The Manufacturers just want us off their tires and they have done something to get the SCTA Board to agree.  Why can't we change the board when we know they are wrong and they are making us swallow this conveniently after the entry deadline.  It just smells bad and that usually means there is something that needs to be audited.  Kent, I do not know you but you really do not know much about tires.  Heat cycled tires are harder and last longer under heat and stress.  That is why Jason still uses them.  As long as you have no impacts or cuts they are the best.  I take my (used to take) my salt tires out to the road race track and heat cycle them for a couple of sessions to harden them up.  They perform perfectly on the Salt.  So either you are a moron Kent or you are not telling us the truth.

[John Noonan]

I do not agree with the board on this issue.  M/C riders on the salt have tested tires now over 200mph for more than 10 years.  That is statistically significant.  One catastrophic failure during that time and I personally saw the debris/car engine parts in the timing van collected after Jason's crash.  When you have this much data it has to count.  The Manufacturers just want us off their tires and they have done something to get the SCTA Board to agree.  Why can't we change the board when we know they are wrong and they are making us swallow this conveniently after the entry deadline.  It just smells bad and that usually means there is something that needs to be audited.  Kent, I do not know you but you really do not know much about tires.  Heat cycled tires are harder and last longer under heat and stress.  That is why Jason still uses them.  As long as you have no impacts or cuts they are the best.  I take my (used to take) my salt tires out to the road race track and heat cycle them for a couple of sessions to harden them up.  They perform perfectly on the Salt.  So either you are a moron Kent or you are not telling us the truth.

Randall,
You are not aware of the actual facts..if you want PM me and we can talk about the facts as they happened and what is the reason behind the rules changing.  Remember that what works at 230+ may not work at 250+, YMMV

John

[firemanjim]

After reading all through this I am still not sure of the why of it all--a whole bunch of bikes have run nover 200 for years now with how many failures? And Greg and I have at least 10 records over 200 on our bike but never once were we contacted about this, though repeatedly it has been said all record holders over 200 were .
No tire issues here ever.

[Larry C]

John, you continue to dodge questions and suggest a pm when someone here is looking for answers. This site can be very informative for lsr racers. Why not put the facts on the forum here so that everyone can have a clear and full understanding. I am way out of the loop on scta politics, I can only guess that perhaps you have been asked not to post the real information here. If that is the case then a lot of people are playing guessing games when they could be properly informed.  Sure would be helpful and elimanate a lot of hairball guess work and assumptions.

[John Noonan]

Larry,

It has been stated to contact Van Butler several times on this matter for any questions or clairifications however I will post some info:

The facts are just about every real fast bike (230's+) at Bonneville with ZR street tires have shredded/chunked drive tires.

If a race car wants to run over 200 mph then they have to run approved racing tires please see section 2.F in the rulebook.

I do not have a problem with killing the tires any longer however we have new people that show up with these fast high HP bikes and want to fulfill their desire to run 200 plus and many of them (accomplished racers in other venues) come to Bonneville and get the rear tire spinning so fast that it chunks and could lead to the tire losing air pressure sending a rider to the hospital or worse.

Some of these racers have hidden this by running back to the pits and placing another rim/tire on before any officials could see the chunking.

Street tires were not made to handle this so we will see what the rules bring in the way of safety and performance, this rule probably affect my team more than most as we have several turbo bikes and aspirated bikes to swap tires on to however if you want to play you have to pay.

Some guy on the other coast has 10 fast race bikes and I have not seen him online complaining about this safety rule, I also do not see any car teams complaining either.

If racers can't afford or don't want to comply with the new SCTA rule then they either can go play in another sandbox or pony up to meet the rules.

(now that should be good for an ignore or two) 

[bak189]

Well Slim, what tires did Nate say to use?

[Seldom Seen Slim]

I haven't called him - yet.  I'm waiting for Todd to refresh my memory about which sizes we need. 

Then, after I've gone through the process -- then I'll letcha know.

[jl222]

  John... Are you saying that a race tire is made to handle high speeds + spinning the hell out of them?
  I don't think so

                      JL222

[John Noonan]

A race tire can be bought in several compounds with some of them being triple compound for different tracks, a race tire is made to take the heat better than a street tire...call any of the major tire manufacturers and tell them what speeds we are running with a ZR street tire and listen to how shocked they are.

I was at a trade show recently and spoke with a large tire manufacturer and told them how fast we have run and on what tires, they seemed impressed that the tires held up and did not fail 

So people need to order up some racing tires/slicks/LSR tires in a harder compound and go racing!!

If anyone wants to point a finger at one person rather than looking at the safety of the racers them point to me I will take the heat..

So who that is affected by this rule has ordered tires?

If so what and where did you get them?

How much?

J