Author Topic: Motorcycle tire rule change  (Read 142267 times)

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Offline nrhs sales

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #120 on: May 25, 2010, 12:46:56 PM »
Every race tire I see has a ZR rating in the nomenclature.  Before all you said was it had to say it was a racing tire.  Now it cannot have a ZR rating?

You know what. I am trying to work with this and Jon, you and the "others"  just seem to be putting up roadblocks instead of giving straight answers.

Screw this BS.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 12:48:38 PM by nrhs sales »

Offline John Noonan

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #121 on: May 25, 2010, 01:10:30 PM »
Every race tire I see has a ZR rating in the nomenclature.  Before all you said was it had to say it was a racing tire.  Now it cannot have a ZR rating?

You know what. I am trying to work with this and Jon, you and the "others"  just seem to be putting up roadblocks instead of giving straight answers.

Screw this BS.

My understanding is that the tire must be a racing tire and not a street designed tire, just having the ZR rating may only have a speed rating of 149+ mph however there are "Racing" tires that have both the ZR rating and also have "Racing" embossed in to the sidewall making the tires legal for the new SCTA rules.

They also carry racing slicks that are marked "racing tire" and do not have a ZR marking.


The tires can be bought from a number of places such as AZ Bridgestone.   

http://www.azbridgestone.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MCRR0003

I was able to find this information with two Google searches and one phone call, I hope this helps.



When ZR appears in the tire size designation, (235 - 45ZR17) it signifies a maximum speed capability in excess of 149 mph. If a service description also appears, the maximum speed is indicated by the service description.

Example:
235/45ZR17 - 149+ mph
235/45ZR17 99W - 168 mph
235/45ZR17 99Y - 186 mph

 
 Symbol
Speed  Speed
(km/h)  Speed
(mph) 
  A1   5   3   
  A2   10   6   
  A3   15   9   
  A4   20   12   
  A5   25   16   
  A6   30   19   
  A8   40   25   
  B   50   31   
  C   60   37   
  D   65   40   
  E   70   43   
  F   80   50   
  G   90   56   
  J   100   62   
  K   110   68   
  L   120   75   
  M   130   81   
  N   140   87   
  P   150   94   
  Q   160   100   
  R   170   106   
  S   180   112   
  T   190   118   
  U   200   124   
  H   210   130   
  V   240   149   
  W   270   168   
  Y   300   186
 
As you can see for the street we do not have any tires listed/rated for a speed rating greater than 186 mph however as mentioned abouve it can say ZR and Racing and be legal.

Offline nrhs sales

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #122 on: May 25, 2010, 01:31:43 PM »
Thank you for that clarification John.  That is exactly what I was asking. "Can it say race use and still have the ZR rating"

Looks like the Metzlers would be legal by the rules then.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 01:35:27 PM by nrhs sales »

Offline tedgram

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delete
« Reply #123 on: May 25, 2010, 01:55:19 PM »
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« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 02:01:13 PM by tedgram »

Offline tedgram

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #124 on: May 25, 2010, 01:58:07 PM »
[As you can see for the street we do not have any tires listed/rated for a speed rating greater than 186 mph] ]
 
Those speed ratings are for extended use at the rated speed (an hour or more) not just for a couple of miles.

Offline nrhs sales

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #125 on: May 25, 2010, 02:06:01 PM »
There is the rub. The highest rating any tire has is a Y which says 186+ mph.  So will the tech inspectors be looking for a tire that says race use or are they looking for something that actually says for 200+ mph. Far as I know, no such tire exists?

The ones I was referring to are W tires which are for 168+ but they do say race on them.


Offline John Noonan

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #126 on: May 25, 2010, 02:15:57 PM »
Have you placed an email to Van or Tom for clarification regarding using the lower speed rated tires that have the ZR and racing on them?
If so please post the answers..

That would be my next step, there are racing tires I would never consider for pavement or Lakes LSR racing.


Offline Utahfab

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #127 on: May 25, 2010, 03:46:30 PM »
At first glance this change to "Racing" spec tires is a good thing.  Bikes are going faster, etc, etc, BUT! Unless some manufacturer steps up and starts making LSR tires this rule change creates problems with enforcement and mandates tires that could actually lead to more tire problems and accidents.  Please consider -

What is a “Racing” tire and what guidelines will the techs use to enforce the rule?

•   Are DOT tires allowed or is the new rule interpreted as specifying pure, non DOT, racing tires?
•   DOT approved tires give you a speed (and load) rating clearly marked on the tire and can be easily checked by tech.
•   Non DOT tires aren’t covered by the same rules.  No clear markings as there aren’t any load or speed ratings to be tested to!
•   There are many true “Racing” tires that meet the letter of the rule that are not fit for the speeds or loads encountered in LSR.  How is the tech expected to sign off or veto a particular example?
•   If it’s interpreted as pure, non DOT, racing tires what is tech supposed to check for?
•   What makes it a “Racing” tire?  The fact it doesn’t include a DOT approval?  Lawn mower tires don’t have a DOT stamp either but I wouldn’t run one.  I’ve seen items, including tires, specified in literature as “Racing” when in reality they are no more than cheap imported junk I wouldn’t trust on any motorcycle much less a 600hp Hayabusa.

Again, What is a tech supposed to check for?  The answers may or may not remove the ability of most racers from competing in a class covered by the new rule.


Thoughts on the “It’s a racing tire, it must be better” view that seems to have led to the new rule.

DOT approved tires are tested at their specified load rating and at their specified speed on a test machine for at least 10 minutes.
•   A tires biggest enemy is heat.   Problems come when, at speed, a tire accumulates heat faster than it can disapate it.  Tires flex.  At speed they’re flexing more so they generate more heat.  More speed, more heat.  More speed also gives you more Centrifical force which by itself doesn’t destroy the tire but the growth it leads to can create even more flex before and after the contact patch so indirectly it adds to the problem.  Shaving tires lets it disapate heat faster and helps decrease its weight for less flex and heat.  Higher tire pressures help push a tire closer to it’s growth diameter so you get less flex and less heat build up.
•   I checked specs on several current high performance tires like Hayabusa be required to run under the old rule.  All had a load rating of 75 which specifies a 853 pound load.  When was the last time you saw an 853 pound race bike?  A superbike is probably one of the heaviest current race classes and they come in significantly under 400 pounds.  An LSR Hayabusa might have some weight removed but then they add up to ?? 100 pounds for traction.  That means a Hayabusa weighs more than double what a “Racing” tire was designed for.  More load, more heat, more problems!
•   Except for LSR, essentially all other racing takes place on a closed course where top speed counted in seconds.   Racing tires are not subjected to the extended high speed s of a LSR run.  Longer high speed pass, more heat, more problems!
•   The old rule states, among other things, harder compound provide the best results.  When was the last time you saw a harder compound racing tire?
•   With racing tires an engineer knows it will be run under the conditions it’s designed for with the proper inflation, etc.  With Road tires engineers are faced with much larger safety margins in that they know a tire can and will be subjected to ridiculous real world conditions, under inflation, incredibly hot road tempetures, etc, etc.

I’d have to say a current, properly prepared, high speed rated, touring or sport/touring tire could be, in reality, safer in the Land Speed Racing arena.

•   It’s test proven to have the ability to handle the heavier loads that more correctly model the bikes attaining these speeds.
•   It’s test proven to have the ability to handle high speeds for longer periods of time, that more correctly model the bikes attaining these speeds.

In general the bikes in question have an incredible safety record.  Consider how many runs John Noonan and Jason McVicar have between them.  They (and others ) are pushing the envelope far above anything that could have been even considered just a few years ago and yet tire failures are very rare.

I hope, if this rule change stays in place! That record continues.

Thanks
Billy

Billy in Utah

Stock Hayabusa w/53k miles - 181.986mph.  Not so fast, Yet!

Offline bak189

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #128 on: May 25, 2010, 04:11:22 PM »
Food for thought....How about this combination....M&H Racemaster 3.6/24.0-15 tire on the rear....Yes it would require a 15inch wheel (SCTA/BNI minimum wheel size for solo bikes) The wheel and tire combination should fit within most modern bike swingarms. This tire has been raced at speed close to 300mph........For the front a 17inch RC. drag bike wheel with either a Goodyear and/or Hoosier tire, again these tires have run at super high speeds.  This combination we have been running for years on our sidecar outfit in LSR.......Right, we are not even close to running 200mph....but consider this: first we have the weight of the sidecar outfit.....then the weight of the driver and passenger.....then we have 270lbs over the rear wheel for traction.  On the last Dyno run we got 325hp out of our blown/busa
( I know somewhat low numbers considering what others are putting out) We are still getting a lot of wheel spin on the salt. BUT the M&H rear tire has held up. These tires are "race" tires....the only rub is they were made for drag racing... not allowed as per the rules. It should be noted that the M&H Racemaster is a front runner for drag racing......It should also be noted when the tire is inflated to the pressures we use in LSR it has a somewhat rounded profile, and Ifeel would work on a solo bike.  It is my understanding that the Racemaster tire has and is being used by some of the cars racing with SCTA/BNI
Just food for thought...  
Question authority.....always

Offline jl222

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #129 on: May 25, 2010, 04:15:13 PM »
  Utahfab...your loosing me on the weight did you mean double or half and there are two tires to count.

            JL222

   I agree with most of what you say.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 04:17:33 PM by jl222 »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #130 on: May 25, 2010, 04:50:38 PM »
Let's not miss the fact that Tom Evans already said DOT racing tires were acceptable.
Quote
I asked Tom Evans to define a race tire so that I can purchase new legal tires. His response today was:
-racing tires
-road racing tires
-DOT road racing tires
-DOT racing tires

Quote
Centrifical force which by itself doesn’t destroy the tire
Up to a certain point, yes. But over a certain speed it can destroy the tire all by itself.

All you need is a tire that will perform at the speed you wish to go. 200 is an arbitrary number for tire safety. So is 265. You can have unsafe tires at 100 too. There are tons of tires for the under 200 crowd.

The over 200 crowd is where is gets dicey. For the tire you end up putting on the bike what is the unsafe speed? Unless you have personally tested the tire to destruction at 200 percent overload at high slip angles with varying load amounts while underinflated then you don't know. If you really value your life then spend the money to build a test rig and test the tires. (PS: Watching a Chevy Tahoe tire loaded to 4500 lbs explode on a radial fatigue machine from 3 feet away will stop all life processes for a moment of time.  8-) )

These guys can do a radial fatigue test for you:
Quote
Motorcycle Testing:
ITS is capable of testing motorcycle wheels to JASO T 203-85 and TUV 4.6.1 and 4.6.2 specifications on Radial fatigue, Cornering fatigue, Impact, and Torsion testing.

http://www.wheeltest.com/
Their maximum speed is 1500 rpm. You need twice that. I don't know of a commercially available radial fatigue machine that will test that fast.

No tire manufacturer will give you maximum speed information outside of DOT numbers. Nobody is going to make an LSR tire.

So what is the answer? Hard compound over soft. Great, because the racing tires are all soft to medium. After I get the race tire how much can I shave it? You might have to shave the first and scrap it to get the second one right.

I think that for motorcycles over 200 that traction control should be mandatory. I can't imagine running for any record where you have enough horsepower to spin the tires that you wouldn't have traction control.
Well, it used to be Los Angeles . . . 50 miles north of Fresno now.
Just remember . . . It isn't life or death.
It's bigger than life or death! It's RACING.

Offline 1212FBGS

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #131 on: May 25, 2010, 04:53:51 PM »
it seem like the people cryin the most are spending more time here bitchin than they are looking for tires....
Ok lets look at a car tire for example.... how about the D2111 LSR tire, goodyear publishes 300mph some people have run them damn near 400.... its a well known fact that they are safe till 330mph... only ONCE... after that its a 50-50 chance they will hold together..... a tire might make it to 270 a few times or maybe once.... how many bullets are in the chamber.... Jason ya claim '05 till '09 on the same tire, let me ask ya this.... did ya run the same pistons and rings? but yet ya claim to have run the same tire.... My perception of your intelligence went down quite a few notches with your claim..
Kent

Offline k.h.

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #132 on: May 25, 2010, 04:54:20 PM »
From: Drag Tires Tech <dragtires@coker.com>
To: khettiger@xxx
Sent: Tue, May 25, 2010 8:53:09 AM
Subject: RE: Contact Form

Hey K,

The 3.5/22-15 M&H is intended to be used as a drag racing front runner, and therefore has just a normal passenger tire type compound, and is of a 4-ply construction.  Unfortunately we can't make them in any different compound at this point in time.  Please let me know if you have any more questions.

Thanks,

Eric



Coker bought M&H and also builds the Phoenix FX series drag tires.  I asked about changing compound and making then stiffer by adding plies.  And about making an M/C front tire in 17-inch, so, if there is a niche market, perhaps M&H will help work up a specific racing tire for LSR.  Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have a criteria agreed upon for them to work toward.  Just sayin.'

Also, asked Eric to come to Landracing, read the news on the homepage about M/C tires and read this forum for the story and concerns from racers' perspectives.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:10:55 PM by k.h. »
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice, there is.--Jan L. A. Van de Snepscheut

Offline nrhs sales

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #133 on: May 25, 2010, 05:09:26 PM »
Dean,
The Metzler Racetec Interact is available in a hard compound (K3) in both a 180/55ZR17 and a 190/55ZR17 so that should cover most folks who are running Buasa, ZX14, Buells etc. They also have the same tire in a 120/70ZR17 for the front.

They call it a race/trackday tire so that should be legal from what I read above.

Conitinental also has available a hard compound race tire.  Conti Race attack comp in endurance compound.

Michelin and Bridgestone appear as though they only have medium or softer compunds available.


See I am trying to help not just be a pain in the a$$ :)

Offline John Noonan

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Re: Motorcycle tire rule change
« Reply #134 on: May 25, 2010, 05:14:59 PM »
Dean,
The Metzler Racetec Interact is available in a hard compound (K3) in both a 180/55ZR17 and a 190/55ZR17 so that should cover most folks who are running Buasa, ZX14, Buells etc. They also have the same tire in a 120/70ZR17 for the front.

They call it a race/trackday tire so that should be legal from what I read above.

Conitinental also has available a hard compound race tire.  Conti Race attack comp in endurance compound.

Michelin and Bridgestone appear as though they only have medium or softer compunds available.


See I am trying to help not just be a pain in the a$$ :)


Bout time...  :-D