Author Topic: Roll bar angle:  (Read 28668 times)

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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2010, 02:28:09 AM »
saltfever, you seem to be fighting an uphill battle here and you're fighting it by yourself. 

I think you're attempting to isolate a single component of something that's designed to function as a system and trying to somehow come up with some kind of supporting data that might indicate that this one single component is an inferior design if it were acting alone.  You're not looking at the entire roll cage and chassis as a system.  You're mixing up your signals here.

Quote from: saltfever
I am not an engineer

Neiter am I but this guy is:

Quote from: Gwillard
Basic rule of thumb for virtually all structures is that arches and triangles are far stronger than squares and rectangles.

What's he's saying doesn't jive with this:

Quote from: saltfever
Anything other than perpendicular is a weaker design.

Back to not being an engineer... The driving force (no pun intended) behind these roll cage rules are engineers.  And they're also chassis builders.  And their also the first responders who arrive on site after an incident.  Combined they have many many years of experience and know what makes for a good roll cage design.

Quote from: saltfever
NHRA, and NASCAR conditions don’t exist and are irrelevant.

So drag racing and roundy-round cars don't apply but somehow this does?

Quote from: saltfever
If strength is an issue look at the Tractor-Pullers. Cages use vertical uprights.

Seriously?  Tractor pullers?  Out of all the other mainstream racing facets I'd say the one that most closely parallels land speed racing is the NHRA.  The NHRA and SFI have more engineering resources than we'll ever know.  I think it's pretty safe to take a page from their book and draw from their knowledge base.

Quote from: saltfever
In a crash the loads are very complex.

You stated this yourself but you don't seem to be accepting this fact.  They are complex and very dynamic in nature.  Every scenario you've described involves apply thousands and thousands of pounds of force directly down vertically on top of the cage.  These cars aren't getting dumped off a cliff or pushed out of a low flying plane and landing right smack on top of the roll cages.  You said it yourself... the loads are very complex. 

This might be the reason why this sentence is on page 24 of the current rule book: "all roll cage structures shall be designed to protect the driver from any angle...". 

Any angle, not just from the top.  Look at the cage as a system.  The front hoop is only one small part of the larger picture here.  And I think it's entirely safe to say that the SCTA has acquired enough significant data of the many years of its existence to support the fact that a roll cage with a laid back front hoop is better than a roll cage with a vertical front hoop.

It's as simple as that.
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2010, 02:42:17 AM »
Our forward hoop angle (37 degrees)... if a possible future rule is going to say at least 30 degrees, then we have to re evaluate how everything is going to work all over.  

I'm no engineer but my math tells me that if your front hoop is angled back 37 degrees from vertical you shouldn't have a problem meeting any future rule that mandates a minimum front hoop angle of 30 degrees from vertical. 

Quote from: maguromic
Looks like before we do anymore we need to send this off to Lee and the gang to get their approval or disapproval.

This would be my next course of action too.
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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2010, 02:50:58 AM »
Nathan,

     Big public thank you for your pro active involvement in getting this issue clarified.  It's a big help for all of us scattered around the country [as well as for the inspectors] to being as ready as possible for that first big inspection on the salt.

     Email sent regarding another build I am involved with.

                                Ed Purinton

No problem Ed.  To be totally honest this whole discussion has gone well beyond the scope of the original situation first mentioned here.  But the good news is is that the car and roll cage in question are now on the right track and I expect to see a very safe and functional final product.

BTW I did get your email and I will try to respond back to you as soon as I can.  Thanks!
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Model T Steve

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2010, 11:08:46 AM »
If the rule is changed can I suggest that it be to 30degs. We can all go to our local super market and get a triangle with that angle on it. 37 degs might be the very best; but it would sure cause some of us to go back to 10th grade and have to really think!

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2010, 12:25:49 PM »
Desoto- I was at patrol when that "accident" happened in front of me if you are dicussing the same one. The investigation of the one I witnessed found the roll cage was welded to the shoulder bar on that particular car. If fact it was determine it was either the second or third one to be welded on the shoulder bar many the bar very brittle. They hoped the added gusset would strengthen this type construction.

For all who believe in the layback bar (I do to) there are many "stand-up" bars running today particularly in Street Roadsters. With their driver position directed by the rules certain chosen bodys don't allow for much layback. Since all cars are not cookie cutters in LSR there will be give and take in contruction. I always perfer roll cages which would attach primarily to the lowest frame rail when possible. Good luck ....JD
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2010, 12:38:54 PM »
YOU guys sold me. Have already cut out my Tacked frt. hoop out ---will be making a new one this week end at over 30 lay back and see if we can still get out of it  :-P
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2010, 03:10:45 PM »
I tried to follow this threat.

what I can say to this, as an engineer who is trained in frame (birdcage  :-D) design and calculation is following.

the red area make no sense....this is against Cremona....the most important mathematik rule for frame design...

the green area is perfect Cremona....

all the years I was surprised to see in the rule book a picture of a frame concept for the roll cage which was against Cremona and the possible safety for the driver. I asked in the inspection why this....to today I got no explaining answer...mostly......was.....I don't know, it is shown in the rule book for years so...nobody said something....so much to engineering.....
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 05:00:31 PM by PorkPie »
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Offline jdincau

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2010, 04:51:49 PM »
for those too lazy to google, Luigi Cremona was a pioneer in the field of descriptive and analytic geometry.
Jim in Palmdale
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Offline PorkPie

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2010, 05:02:07 PM »
Yeap....and the other pioneer was Steiner - his mathematic rule is the second base rule for all proper frame design....
Pork Pie

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Offline maguromic

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2010, 06:06:50 PM »
I tried to follow this threat.

what I can say to this, as an engineer who is trained in frame (birdcage  :-D) design and calculation is following.

the red area make no sense....this is against Cremona....the most important mathematik rule for frame design...

the green area is perfect Cremona....

all the years I was surprised to see in the rule book a picture of a frame concept for the roll cage which was against Cremona and the possible safety for the driver. I asked in the inspection why this....to today I got no explaining answer...mostly......was.....I don't know, it is shown in the rule book for years so...nobody said something....so much to engineering.....


A little confused but if you are referring to the bend in the dash hoop, its imperfect in the sense of static equilibrium, but its reality that we need that room to get in and out of the car.  The car its only 16 ½” tall in that area and without bending your knees backwards it would be next to impossible to get out of the car.  It’s a short tube with not much angle in the bend and very stiff.  Any loads from the direction that would deform it are unlikely.  Yeah it violates the statics books somewhat, but look at any tub-type race cars and it has the same issue.  But I'm always willing to debate how to improve something or correct flaws. Tony
“If you haven’t seen the future, you are not going fast enough”

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2010, 02:01:02 AM »



A little confused but if you are referring to the bend in the dash hoop, its imperfect in the sense of static equilibrium, but its reality that we need that room to get in and out of the car.  The car its only 16 ½” tall in that area and without bending your knees backwards it would be next to impossible to get out of the car.  It’s a short tube with not much angle in the bend and very stiff.  Any loads from the direction that would deform it are unlikely.  Yeah it violates the statics books somewhat, but look at any tub-type race cars and it has the same issue.  But I'm always willing to debate how to improve something or correct flaws. Tony

[/quote]

You be right with this - but this is the way you have to go,

I was referring to the tube "knot" - how all this tubes joint into one point. And as it was wrote before - if this tube which comes in an angle from the top of the roll bar goes down to horizontal floor tube it will be the right solution - also it will improve the stiffness if this tube goes through the horizontal upper tube - means the horizontal one is interrupt by the "angle" tube. This comment may confuse, but it is a mathematical fact  :roll:
Pork Pie

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Offline PorkPie

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2010, 02:04:59 AM »
Cremona Rule:

This rule says nothing other - than when it be done to this rule....

the frame is twice as stiff as a frame which is not done to this rule by the same weight

or

you get the same stiffness as a frame which is not done to this rule with half the weight.....
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline Fordrat31

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2010, 06:39:38 AM »
Wow I never thought my original question regarding the proper angle of the front hoop would lead to such a debate! I was the one that originally asked the question on the HAMB. I am really glad I wasn't the only one that was confused by this detail. Over the past few weeks I have been busy trying to come up with a redesign plan for my lakester cage, I believe I am on the right track now. (Thanks to Nate Stewart for that)

Here is the build diary for my car.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,7618.0.html

Mike
Speed, you have to make it your friend, then convince it to volunteer on you team

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2010, 09:37:03 AM »
 :?to us non engineer types is the discusion about which tube is continuous and which one is interrupted :-P?  I understand how the braces help keep the columns in register  :-)
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Roll bar angle:
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2010, 03:36:02 PM »
Sparky..........this was the reason why I wrote mathematically.....

If it's only for one tube "important" that this one goes through....the effect is very small.....interested is this going through/interrupt tube than, when you got a big number of tubes which had to be checked......birdcage....... :-D

At last....if it's not proper weld together.....you have not to care for..... :roll:.................one is math theory......other is a real safety fact......
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)