Rider on fire

[joea]

.....i believe that the intent was to try to ensure that oil and or other fluids
couldnt penetrate the leathers ie via perforations........

with that said......yes...Jon M. confirms......bad burns d/t trapped moisture
creating a steam cooker.......NO BETTER WITH NOMEX........

and ya cant fix stupid..........meaning folks like myself........there is no rule
about armor..................i dont have any.......and its simply dumb not to
use it............

burns are bad......paralysis is worse..........

i ran what i had......old leathers that pass tech without armor....d/t stupidity........

[bak189]

Walt......you stated your "roadrace" type leathers would "not pass Bonneville Tech"....WRONG
The BUB all M/C Speed Trials race on the Bonneville salt flats and your "roadrace" type leather with all its armor and perforrations is legal.............in fact there has been some thought and input that the perforrations may help vent the body and possible reduce burns from sweat in case of a bike fire..........

[TURBO KING]

Joe:

Thanks for clarifying what the intent was for no perforations, I had no idea that was what it was for.  And I was not meaning to criticize your choice or anyone else's of equipment.  If it's within the rules and passes tech, it's within the rules.  Everyone can make their own choices from there based on their own assesment of what risk they are comfortable with.  I just feel that if one wants to wear what's BEYOND what is required to be SAFER, they should not be PENALIZED for wanting to do so.

bak129:

Walt......you stated your "roadrace" type leathers would "not pass Bonneville Tech"....WRONG
The BUB all M/C Speed Trials race on the Bonneville salt flats and your "roadrace" type leather with all its armor and perforrations is legal.............in fact there has been some thought and input that the perforrations may help vent the body and possible reduce burns from sweat in case of a bike fire..........

Well then, I stand corrected, and thank you for the clarification.

But would the leathers pass Speedweek Tech for SCTA-BNI regs?

Walt

[Super Kaz]

Joe:

Thanks for clarifying what the intent was for no perforations, I had no idea that was what it was for.  And I was not meaning to criticize your choice or anyone else's of equipment.  If it's within the rules and passes tech, it's within the rules.  Everyone can make their own choices from there based on their own assesment of what risk they are comfortable with.  I just feel that if one wants to wear what's BEYOND what is required to be SAFER, they should not be PENALIZED for wanting to do so.

bak129:

Walt......you stated your "roadrace" type leathers would "not pass Bonneville Tech"....WRONG
The BUB all M/C Speed Trials race on the Bonneville salt flats and your "roadrace" type leather with all its armor and perforrations is legal.............in fact there has been some thought and input that the perforrations may help vent the body and possible reduce burns from sweat in case of a bike fire..........

Well then, I stand corrected, and thank you for the clarification.

But would the leathers pass Speedweek Tech for SCTA-BNI regs?

Walt

NO ONLY BUB !

[joea]

......Walt........your right on the money........!!


my comments were sincere.....you cant fix dumb...at least not
completely........proper rules go along way toward fixing dumb........

what i was getting at was that for stupid reasons....i ran/run inadequate
protection........legal yes.......BUT......within my power is the ability
to run armor.......we all should.........

.....developing away to minimize the steam damage is important..(fire suppression etc) but like
i said......folks like Walt who value armor are doing alot of justice to safety...!!

BUB has some great things going for it..........

wish the rules for bikes maintained parity......so as not to have
to have different fairings etc for scta events and a different one
of BUB....

additionally......BUB is requiring snell 2005 for this year event......when
in about 2-3 months later the snell 2010 will be out........

my vote.....is for adequate ventilation...and proper wicking garment under leathers...
body armor..namely back protector....common sense helmet rating req. that dont result in buying new helmet within a couple monthsof new rated helmet......

perhaps....proper ventilation and wicking material....with fire resistant underwear like
carbonex/nomex would protect from fire damage.....allow for barrier to hot fluids....and
minimize steam damage....and as walt stated......utilizing rationale and experience from
other sanctioning bodies ie AMA etc will result in better safety......

[TURBO KING]

Great comments, Joe. 

My Teknic Speedstar leathers came with a one-piece vented undergarment that wicks away moisture very well, but I found some two piece Under Armor that works just as well if not better, but makes it easier to relieve ones self when nature calls and you are soaking wet.  Teknic no longer makes this suit in kangaroo.  When I noticed this the year after I got my suit, I called them up and asked why it was discontinued. They said due to rising prices, it would now cost them over $3,000 to make the same suit!

I have never worn nomex or carbonex, but I would if it:  1. breathes  2. wicks away moisture  3. is safer in the event of a crash as well as a fire (some materials act kind of funny when road rash is factored in-I am sure it is safer than what I am wearing now, however).

That really makes no sense about the helmet.  Dennis is a reasonable person.  I wonder if anyone has inmformed him personally about the stupidity of that Snell 2005 requirement.  That is really absurd.

Incidentally, the back protector that came with my suit is adequite, but I upgraded to one made by Forcefield in the UK.  It is sold in the US by Johnson leathers in San Francisco, CA.  Here is a link describing the history of armor in motorcycle clothing by RiDE magazine that is off the Johnson leathers website:  http://www.johnsonleather.com/Downloadable_Articles/RideArticle_2-07.pdf

I like this back protector because it won RiDE magazines test of many different back protectors.  It is extremely comfortable.  It is unique in that it does NOT have any hard plastic in it, yet it significantly outperforms all other types of armor in the enrgy transferred to the back upon impact.  I wear it on the street also.  here is a link to the test results of the back protector shootout: http://www.johnsonleather.com/Downloadable_Articles/RideArticle.pdf

At Maxton, when Charlie came there after DaveO built his big turbo bike, I tech'd his bike and his gear, and told him I wasn't signing off on his leathers.  I told him I wasn't going to let him go out on a concrete runway with a bike that makes 700 horsepower (for his first time on the bike, no less) with no armor.  I apologized to him, because I felt bad, and he understood completely, as did DaveO.  I told him to find some armor to go underneath, and he did.  I believe Deb & Todd provided him with some that night and he was good to go.  And Billy Shoemaker also uses the "portable" armor under his leathers also as added protection.

Also, I just re-read you posts bout Jon Minnono.  He is certainly a lot tougher than I am, that's for sure!  And that is real class by having them give the money to the Bryant family also.  I wonder if he would wear the nomex/carbonex again if there was adequate ventilation?  If he tried both of them on 2 seperate bikes with 2 seperate fires and won't wear them again, then I probably wouldn't wear them either.  His first hand experience is good enough for me.  With the amount I sweat, the steam from a fire would cook me for sure, REAL bad.

Walt

[SPARKY]

I am not a biker---but I know Jon M , Jon W, and Joe & Jon A---  If I ever have a car that is more likly to have a fire than the Ratical---I will go to MUCH greater length to not let the inside of my Fire suit get sweat soaked---it is a VERY real concern of mine---the moisture needs to be on the suit surface where it can do some good---underwear over Leathers??

[Super Kaz]

I Lose between 10 lbs-20lbs a Day in My Leathers during the Hot Weather !
I have to go into the Races Heavy 155lbs,because I lose so much water weight.
Thats@ 4% Body Fat,and I'm Sick for a week or 2 after{Sever Heat Exhaustion & Dehydration}
I don't know how John Noonan,and Jason Mc V. Do it{They can Race ALL DAY Long},but
I have to rest and rehydrate for a couple hour's after each run!
Now I don't have my Rig with A/C,and the thought of it makes me shiver !
I think being So Lean is Not Good in the Hot or Cold,but I can't afford another new set of Bigger Leathers.
So I yo-yo between 150-135lbs @ 5' 8" during racing season,and Bulk up during the off Season !
I want to try the new Cool Suit Matt Maladin uses{it has a A/C Cooler attaches to it in between Races/Motos}
,but it's Perforated,and has Kevlar underarms and crotch panels !
I've had to ruin 2 different $3000.00+ Each ,Dainese MOTOGP Leathers just to be Legal 2 race !

[1212FBGS]

LMAO  kaz...... "10 to 20 lbs a day"....... LMAO?...... "have to rest couple of hours"...... maybe you should try drag racing!
kent

[John Noonan]

Kent,

You at work..?

[fredvance]

I am!!

  Fred

[John Noonan]

Fred,

Please fix this "#473 1350 p/p SW '08 192.530"

Seems so slow now...


J

[joea]

Walt....actually I think Jon M. has no issues with the carbonex or nomex....

carbonex has abrasion and fire/heat resistance......so makes sense to wear...

Jon M. just made the comment that the nomex and carbonex didnt seem to
do anything positive about burns from steam from the trapped moisture.....

in looking at his/the situation......the burns BOTH times were d/t superheated
TRAPPED moisture.......it would seem to me that current tech leathers engineered
for racing related impacts....with the well engineered impact/energy absorbing
armor.....with the also well engineered ventilation systems.....
combined with fire resistant undergarments beneath.....might be better safety for
LSR......than AIRTIGHT LEATHER SUIT.....AND NO ARMOR...or fire resistant undergarment.....

i feel this..d/t the reality that the carbonex and nomex resist fire penetration....which is
what the nearly NO perforation rule stemmed from, trying to eliminate burning fluids from
penetrating suit........

im have alot of faith in the current SCTA bike tech folks, and in light of the two steam burn
incidence's...i think its likely that modifications to rules will ensue...........

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Nancy and I both wear Z Leathers suits.  Both have some armor built in -- mine includes a back protector that's held in place by hook-and-loop (a/k/a "velcro") stuff -- so it can be moved.  We did this last week, for instance, to allow me to tilt my head/helmet differently for a better tuck.  Nancy wasn't racing at high speeds when we got her set so she wears a strap-on back protector when riding the fast bikes.

Both of us have full-body kevlar underwear -- long pants, held down by "stirrups" under the arch of the feet, and long sleeves held down by snug wristbands of velcro.  We got the kevlar suits from the "Draggin' Jeans" company (they advertise their jeans with kevlar inserts in butt and knees) for about $300 each suit.  We wear them to help reduce the chances of getting serious road rash should we go down on the salt (or any other racing surface) - in case the leather wears through during a slide.  I didn't have fire in mind (although the stuff won't burn), and I doubt that there is much hope that the kevlar will prevent injury from fire.

I say that because the kevlar cloth is woven with a relatively coarse weave.  That coarse weave is great for absorbing sweat, so when worn it's pretty common for us to be wet -- and that's what has happened to Jon Minnono, right?  There's a good thing about the coarse weave, though, in that while wearing the kevlar without the leathers -- such as in the staging line when getting ready to run, or at the end of a run when stripping off the leather outfit -- the wet kevlar and coarse weave combine to allow the breeze to evaporate the sweat and produce super cooling effects for the rider.

I don't know if there's an easy solution to the concern about a fire making for steam burns under leathers.  I would be glad to consider changing the rule about limited perforations, seeing that more perfs might allow better evaporation of sweat while the leather suit is fully zipped-up, and also that more perfs, if made in some managed and specified pattern, might not adversely limit the tear-resistance of the leathers during a slide after a crash.  Maybe it's something I'll take up independently with Adolph at Z, just for his input as a manufacturer.  I'll keep you folks in touch with what I find.

By the way -- I've got a set of carbon overalls -- for fire protection - but they're not tailored for wearing under leathers, but rather look like something to be worn in the workshop.  They're a very dark blue -- and hotter than the dickens out in the sun at the Salt.  I wore them out there once -- they were just too Dodge hot to use.

[fredvance]

JN is that better??

  Fred